Defense Rewards Should Scale With Waves/enemy Level

[CharginTarge]

Like many other people, I enjoy playing endless defense. I especially enjoy the challenge of trying to reach a really high wave on these missions. Recently the rewards got updated so that the rewards weren't completely atrocious anymore (Hellfire, Hellfire, Hellfire....).

 

However, there is still an inherent flaw in the loot system: there is absolutely no incentive for trying to reach a high wave. The reward probabilities are exactly the same no matter at what wave you are. This only encourages people to run defense missions to lvl 5 over and over again, since thre is no point trying to aim higher. Meanwhile, not only isn't skill rewarded it, it is actually PUNISHED since it takes way longer to go from wave 45 to 50 compared to quitting at 45 and running to wave 5 again, not to mention farming wave 5 ten times. This is also because you get to cash in rewards more often by quitting (aka 1 random draw + S#&$ty mod is better than 1 random draw).

 

This kind of reward design is completely wrong and should be fixed so that skill and the risk of doing a higher wave is actually rewarded. Rather than just complaining about this, I'd like to propose some ideas on how this can be improved. Regardless of the design, the solution would have to take into account the enemy level or wave number (which of the two is up to debate). I'll denote this variable as X. So, how can the rewards be changed and how can X influence these rewards?

 

- You could offer rare materials as reward. Here X could influence the quantity of the rewards offered.

- Many of the rewards are mods, though all mods are offered at lvl 0. You could let X influence the lvl of the offered mod. For instance, I'd rather have a lvl 5 Serration at wave 50 instead of a lvl 0 Hellfire.

- X could affect the amount of rewards drawn from the loot table.

- Right now the loot tables are organized into tiers. How about sorting the items into tiers instead, where a higher tier implies a more desirable reward. X could then influence the probability of receiving a reward from a higher tier. This would be my preferred solution.

 

tl;dr current defense missions punish skill and risk, instead of rewarding it.

 

 

[CharginTarge]

Anyone else thinking DE should incentivise high defense waves? If not then this gameplay mechanic would be completely useless.

[legionufo]

I dont think DE want do such thing more because these topic have many, even me have post some long time ago but to until now, u9, everything still there nothing change

Edited August 6, 2013 by legionufo

[CharginTarge]

Before the loot table revamp, the table they had in place was a temporary solution, which DE admitted, until DE figured out what they wanted to do. The current system is only out since U9, so only a month. It's likely that they didn't change the current system because DE is probably still evaluating it, which is why I am here: to tell them that it needs changing.

[CharginTarge]

Whether you agree or disagree, I'd really like to see some opinions. Would be a shame if this idea would just drop into oblivion after a day.

[whitejackale]

They should reward people for beating difficult content. That means that the defense rewards should be tiered to give better rewards the higher the waves. A system that rewards players with random rewards no matter the difficulty is bad design.

[optyk]

Like many other people, I enjoy playing endless defense. I especially enjoy the challenge of trying to reach a really high wave on these missions. Recently the rewards got updated so that the rewards weren't completely atrocious anymore (Hellfire, Hellfire, Hellfire....).

 

However, there is still an inherent flaw in the loot system: there is absolutely no incentive for trying to reach a high wave. The reward probabilities are exactly the same no matter at what wave you are. This only encourages people to run defense missions to lvl 5 over and over again, since thre is no point trying to aim higher. Meanwhile, not only isn't skill rewarded it, it is actually PUNISHED since it takes way longer to go from wave 45 to 50 compared to quitting at 45 and running to wave 5 again, not to mention farming wave 5 ten times. This is also because you get to cash in rewards more often by quitting (aka 1 random draw + S#&$ty mod is better than 1 random draw).

 

This kind of reward design is completely wrong and should be fixed so that skill and the risk of doing a higher wave is actually rewarded. Rather than just complaining about this, I'd like to propose some ideas on how this can be improved. Regardless of the design, the solution would have to take into account the enemy level or wave number (which of the two is up to debate). I'll denote this variable as X. So, how can the rewards be changed and how can X influence these rewards?

 

- You could offer rare materials as reward. Here X could influence the quantity of the rewards offered.

- Many of the rewards are mods, though all mods are offered at lvl 0. You could let X influence the lvl of the offered mod. For instance, I'd rather have a lvl 5 Serration at wave 50 instead of a lvl 0 Hellfire.

- X could affect the amount of rewards drawn from the loot table.

- Right now the loot tables are organized into tiers. How about sorting the items into tiers instead, where a higher tier implies a more desirable reward. X could then influence the probability of receiving a reward from a higher tier. This would be my preferred solution.

 

tl;dr current defense missions punish skill and risk, instead of rewarding it.

 

This will help your qq ROI.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/69284-tool-sed-r-endless-defense-reward-prediction-u9/

 

Kinda sounds like you don't want to be punished for taking a risk. We call your types Carebears. Don't be a Shaquille O'Neal, be a Michael Jordan.

 

oh and keep your resources out of our loot tables. they are easy enough to get already.

[CharginTarge]

This will help your qq ROI.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/69284-tool-sed-r-endless-defense-reward-prediction-u9/

 

Kinda sounds like you don't want to be punished for taking a risk. We call your types Carebears. Don't be a Shaquille O'Neal, be a Michael Jordan.

 

oh and keep your resources out of our loot tables. they are easy enough to get already.

 

 

Maybe you actually should have read my post. We call your types ignorant. Don't be a Bill O'Reilly, be a Steven Colbert.

 

I quite cleary stated that I want risk to be rewarded, since right now the exact opposite is the case with the least risky and least difficult strategy giving the best rewards. I want challenge, I want risk and I want the incentives to do these things.

[BadAimbot]

DE has a problem giving incentive for hard content in general. I think that instead of tweaking the rewards they should make higher level enemies more rewarding instead. Defense is the only place really high levels turn up besides the Void, plus it also serves as future-proofing harder content and making lower level Defense pretty damn awesome too.

[optyk]

Maybe you actually should have read my post. We call your types ignorant. Don't be a Bill O'Reilly, be a Steven Colbert.

 

I quite cleary stated that I want risk to be rewarded, since right now the exact opposite is the case with the least risky and least difficult strategy giving the best rewards. I want challenge, I want risk and I want the incentives to do these things.

 

Funny, my friends/Clan and I are rewarded from taking risk and overcoming challenge in T3 lvl100+ multi-faction defense missions and even lower level stuff like Jupiter-IO; you may even come along for a run or two if you wish. If you're stopping at wave 5 and then wash, rinse and repeat -thats your fault, not DE's. You're seeing more 'rewards' from that because of the speed of finishing off round 1(wave 5) fast, which is all fine and dandy but that doesn't mean the system is overall wrong.

 

Again, use that web tool. It will help your hate on RNGesus and slow the qq until they can make more adjustments.

 

How's that for a Colbert Report? /wave

[CharginTarge]

If you're stopping at wave 5 and then wash, rinse and repeat -thats your fault, not DE's. You're seeing more 'rewards' from that because of the speed of finishing off round 1(wave 5) fast, which is all fine and dandy but that doesn't mean the system is overall wrong.

 

 

Again, I am not stopping at lvl 5 because it's better. But many others do, meaning it's really tough to find a group that's actually willing to go for broke.

 

Also that webtool is merely a way of covering up symptoms without dealing with the underlying issue. Like putting a piece of newspaper on a carpet where you spilt a drink instead of wiping it up. The probability of getting a given reward at wave 50 is exactly the same as at wave 5 before going into a mission. The fact that the loot order is deterministic and predictable as you go through the waves is a fascinating oddity for a loot system, but it shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

 

... and slow the qq until they can make more adjustments.

 

 

In case you forgot, this subsection of the forum is for the suggestion of gameplay improvements, which I did without cursing and whining. This game is still in BETA, so if you interpret any form of criticism or feedback as qq, then there's clearly something wrong with you and I'd advise you to refrain from aimlessly flaming people for doing what they're supposed to do. If you disagree with a suggestion, then just calmy state why you do so and leave it at that instead of antagonising whoever wrote the suggestion.

Edited August 7, 2013 by CharginTarge

[Amistyrja]

Congratulations on reaching Wave 100! Claim your reward Hellfire at the checkout counter while the extraction team takes over.

[Bakercompany86]

OP:  Yes I would love this.  No incentive to go beyond wave 5 or 10 usually.

[D.I.E]

yeah wave 50... Hellfire!... Hellfire? Again?

Edited August 7, 2013 by D.I.E

[notionphil]

Funny, my friends/Clan and I are rewarded from taking risk and overcoming challenge in T3 lvl100+ multi-faction defense missions and even lower level stuff like Jupiter-IO; you may even come along for a run or two if you wish. If you're stopping at wave 5 and then wash, rinse and repeat -thats your fault, not DE's. You're seeing more 'rewards' from that because of the speed of finishing off round 1(wave 5) fast, which is all fine and dandy but that doesn't mean the system is overall wrong.

 

Again, use that web tool. It will help your hate on RNGesus and slow the qq until they can make more adjustments.

 

How's that for a Colbert Report? /wave

 

1) Find sand

2) Insert head

???

4) Profit!