Salvage Instead Of Transmute

[Adianoeta]

===============

EDIT - 2013-08-23

===============

TL;DR - The idea was to change Transmute into a Salvage function that would take mods or duplicates of mods and turn them into Fusion Cores.  No longer see the purpose of this, because a post by Lumireaver made me aware that any mod can be used as a Fusion Core substitute.  See the post here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/98185-nightmare-weekend/?p=1118654

 

Efficacy is reduced with non-duplicate Mods, but when fusing duplicate mods, the Fusion is significantly better than using non-duplicates.  IE: 3 Fury Mods fused into a Hornet Strike doesn't work too well, but 3 Fury Mods fused into another Fury Mod is easy rank up.

 

Apologies for my ignorance.

 

=^D

 

=====================

ORIGINAL POST BELOW

=====================

 

Transmute seems to be an indirect answer to mod organization.  It's a poor answer at that.  I'd much rather have mod stacking (read here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/76244-stacking-duplicate-mods/#entry830349).  Furthermore, Transmute's kind of useless for players who have enough mods to be in need of it (when I say "in need", I mean that players who want to try and turn several hundred duplicates into something more useful).  Any mods I've Transmuted have produced other mods I already have.  Considering how we effectively have no Fusion Cores anymore (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/93228-fusion-cores-no-longer-exist/#entry1042608), how about changing Transmute into a Salvage option, where Fusion Cores are salvaged from several mods.  Maybe this could even be extended to produce resources.  Even if the Loot Tables are fixed where we get Fusion Cores again, Transmute's purpose is still effectively moot and can be adjusted to be more practical.  Additionally, I don't care for farming for Fusion Cores - if Transmute could be adjusted into a Salvage function, we could turn hundreds of hours of unused, duplicate mods into Fusion Cores we could actually use.  Let's turn some of our unused time equity into practical-use items.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Adianoeta

[RouvenDesc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you mean salvage fusion cores into several more mods, does that mean using 5 core rare to make like few or dozen common-uncommon mods?

 

Edit: It would be useful for people who want to upgrade common mods to max, but I think salvage option should be debated by many forum users, including the administrators. As for Transmute, it just needs a little tweaking, The gamble for transmute is too risky to turn 4 unwanted mods into 1 useless mod and only few got actual rares from it.

Edited August 12, 2013 by War_Dancer

[Adianoeta]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you mean salvage fusion cores into several more mods, does that mean using 5 core rare to make like few or dozen common-uncommon mods? The gamble for transmute is too risky to turn 4 unwanted mods into 1 useless mod and only few got actual rares from it.

 

Let me follow KISS:

1) 4 Fury Mods placed into Salvage

2) Press "Salvage" button

3a) A Common/Uncommon/Rare Fusion Core pops out

OR

3b) A Neurode/Gallium/Neural Sensor/Control Module pops out

 

It doesn't have to be strictly 4 mods placed into Salvage bin, maybe it could be more.  It doesn't have to be specifically the same duplicate mods, you could place any combination of unneeded mods, which would affect the output (more Rare mods put into Salvage bin will provide higher quality Fusion Cores).

Edited August 12, 2013 by Adianoeta

[101blubb]

But why would you want to salvage unused duplicates into fusion cores when you could just use those unused duplicates as fusion core-substitutes to begin with.

Edited August 12, 2013 by 101blubb

[zerogear5]

i dont agree with mods turning into resources but having a fusion core option and a gamble option would be  a fair exchange.

[RouvenDesc]

Let me follow KISS:

1) 4 (or whatever quantity) Fury Mods (or any combination of unneeded mods) placed into Salvage

2) Press "Salvage" button

3a) A Common/Uncommon/Rare Fusion Core pops out

OR

3b) A Neurode/Gallium/Neural Sensor/Control Module pops out

 

Okay I follow now, but still instead of removing transmute, it should still be implemented because some players need it to not only get rare or whatever mods they might want but also to reduce their mod numbers.

[Darkwahn]

But why would you want to salvage unused duplicates into fusion cores when you could just use those unused duplicates as fusion core-substitutes to begin with.

Think fusion cores have better fusion effectiveness.

[Adianoeta]

i dont agree with mods turning into resources but having a fusion core option and a gamble option would be  a fair exchange.

 

Like I said, it could be an option.  No need to tell DE, "DO ONLY XYZ OR DIE!@!!!@#!$".  Personally, I'd rather just have Fusion Cores pop out, but I'm not going to hard-line it either.

[Adianoeta]

Okay I follow now, but still instead of removing transmute, it should still be implemented because some players need it to not only get rare or whatever mods they might want but also to reduce their mod numbers.

 

If a Salvage function is baked into Transmute, I'd be happy with that.  Just saying that, as it stands now. those players who could use Transmute would find very little practical value from Transmute.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Adianoeta

[Adianoeta]

But why would you want to salvage unused duplicates into fusion cores when you could just use those unused duplicates as fusion core-substitutes to begin with.

 

I've thought about this before, but I'm not too sure DE would go for it.  Consider their economic stand point:

A) Turn 10 Duplicate Fury Mods into a Maxed Fury Mod

B) Consume a Quantity of 20 Fusion Cores to Max Out Fury

 

In Option A, the total Mod Consumption would be 10, which is a very low barrier of entry for even new players.

 

In Option B, let's say the 20 Fusion Cores are of Uncommon 5 quality, which are going to be a result of Salvaging 100 Common quality Mods.

 

10 Mods vs 100 Mods.  From DE's perspective, it would be better to pursue Option B.

 

I'm not saying these are the actual number, but just using the numbers to illustrate where DE's interests lie, especially since they're now selling Fusion Cores for Platinum.  I'm posting this suggestion so that it gains traction with reasonable arguments - if we don't consider DE's stance and go, "GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME", this idea's going to sink.  I don't like to waste my time to post ideas that will sink.

 

Don't get me wrong - I like your idea and I'm not attacking you, but I'm sure the staff at DE has already thought about this and kept quiet so as not to stir the pot.

[101blubb]

I've thought about this before, but I'm not too sure DE would go for it.  Consider their economic stand point:

[...]

Don't get me wrong - I like your idea and I'm not attacking you, but I'm sure the staff at DE has already thought about this and kept quiet so as not to stir the pot.

 

Honestly, I have no clue what you're talking about (o_o). I was asking what difference baking those unused dupes into a fusion core which you would ultimately fuse into a mod of your choice instead of fusing those dupes directly into the mod would make.

Edited August 12, 2013 by 101blubb

[Adianoeta]

Think fusion cores have better fusion effectiveness.

 

They could always change that, but I think, if DE were to even consider implementing this, they would prefer to establish a simple table for what quality of a Fusion Core would pop out based on the quality of the Mods Salvaged rather than setting up a separate "Fusion Value" for each mod.  Although, I suppose complexity could always go the other way around too.

[Adianoeta]

Honestly, I have no clue what you're talking about (o_o). I was asking what difference baking those unused dupes into a fusion core which you would ultimately fuse into a mod of your choice instead of fusing those dupes directly into the mod would make.

 

There is no difference, effectively.  Thing is, I'm thinking about some of the social and economic consequence that DE would have to put up with if it only took 3 duplicate mods to make a maxed out mod.  That's an over-exaggeration, but I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible so that it makes sense.  If they took it to the other extreme, where it takes 100 Fury duplicates to produce a maxed out Fury Mod, a lot players would fume at DE and demand to know why the function was implemented in the first place.  Furthermore, they're selling Fusion Cores for Platinum - it kinds of stands against their business model to implement something that may partially erode their bottom line.  Both options would do so, but Option B wouldn't be nearly as bad and it could take advantage of the already existing Transmute UI, thus less code is involved.  Where there is less (new) code, there are less bugs to quash.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Adianoeta

[Adianoeta]

There is no difference, effectively.  Thing is, I'm thinking about some of the social and economic consequence that DE would have to put up with if it only took 3 duplicate mods to make a maxed out mod.  That's an over-exaggeration, but I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible so that it makes sense.  If they took it to the other extreme, where it takes 100 Fury duplicates to produce a maxed out Fury Mod, a lot players would fume at DE and demand to know why the function was implemented in the first place.  Furthermore, they're selling Fusion Cores for Platinum - it kinds of stands against their business model to implement something that may partially erode their bottom line.  Both options would do so, but Option B wouldn't be nearly as bad and it could take advantage of the already existing Transmute UI, thus less code is involved.  Where there is less (new) code, there are less bugs to quash.

 

Additionally, if you already have a Maxed Fury Mod, you don't need anymore Fury mods as substitutes for Fusion Cores.  They're now useless.  With a Salvage option, you could recycle them to be used for other mods, since they're being dismantled into a common property.  To illustrate: you can't always trade your stockpile of corn for beef, nor is it very mobile, but if you sell it for cash, you can use that cash to purchase whatever you want, whether it be beef, hash, bacon or cookies.

[101blubb]

Additionally, if you already have a Maxed Fury Mod, you don't need anymore Fury mods as substitutes for Fusion Cores.  They're now useless.  With a Salvage option, you could recycle them to be used for other mods, since they're being dismantled into a common property.

 

You can fuse any mod into any mod with varying efficiency. No mod is useless once you get a maxed version of said mod.

[MeteorKing]

You can fuse any mod into any mod with varying efficiency. No mod is useless once you get a maxed version of said mod.

It's less effective.  For example; If i have max fury and 4 more fury mods I could, with Adianoeta's system, do one of two things.  1) Fuse 4 Fury mods into another mod with drastically reduced effectivness or 2) turn 4 fury mods into a fusion core to be used for any rarity or polarity.

 

I think...

[101blubb]

It's less effective.  For example; If i have max fury and 4 more fury mods I could, with Adianoeta's system, do one of two things.  1) Fuse 4 Fury mods into another mod with drastically reduced effectivness or 2) turn 4 fury mods into a fusion core to be used for any rarity or polarity.

 

I think...

 

You're correct. However, the only thing baking those mods into Fusion Cores would do is normalize the fusion efficiency. The same can be achieved by fusing a crapload of mods - we already do that for the five mods with humongous fusion requirements.

 

Edit: At least I do and I'm coming off fusing 300 random duplicates into my Serration.

Edited August 12, 2013 by 101blubb

[MeteorKing]

This page http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Fusion#Fusion_energy_in_simple_terms , while a little poorly worded, is incredibly helpful for efficient fusing.  Of course, efficient fusing becomes a thing of the past when you've got all the mods you want to the ranks you want. 

[101blubb]

This page http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Fusion#Fusion_energy_in_simple_terms , while a little poorly worded, is incredibly helpful for efficient fusing.  Of course, efficient fusing becomes a thing of the past when you've got all the mods you want to the ranks you want. 

 

Were/Are you concerned about your fusion efficiency by the time you reach r8/9/10 on your Serration/Hornet Strike/Vitality/Redirection/Steel Fiber? I know that I'm not.

Edited August 12, 2013 by 101blubb

[MeteorKing]

I'm not just ranking those two mods, though.  I've also got other mods I want to rank up, as do most players.  Once I have my mods where I want them, sure, I'll smash everything into rank 9/10.

[Beldavid]

It's less effective.  For example; If i have max fury and 4 more fury mods I could, with Adianoeta's system, do one of two things.  1) Fuse 4 Fury mods into another mod with drastically reduced effectivness or 2) turn 4 fury mods into a fusion core to be used for any rarity or polarity.

 

I think...

fusing same polarity mods (not dupes) is only slightly less effective than a fusion core

3 common V mods = 6 fusion energy for 900 credits as long as fusing a V mod.

1 common3 core = 6 fusion energy for 750 credits for any mod

 

a fusion core acts as a matching polarity card x level of core

for fusing, matching polarity cards will equal x fusion energy

Common = 2

Uncommon = 4

Rare = 6

 

fusion cores =

Common 3 = 6

Uncommon 5 = 20

Rare 5 = 30

[MeteorKing]

Thank you, that was actually extremely helpful.

[Adianoeta]

It's less effective.  For example; If i have max fury and 4 more fury mods I could, with Adianoeta's system, do one of two things.  1) Fuse 4 Fury mods into another mod with drastically reduced effectivness or 2) turn 4 fury mods into a fusion core to be used for any rarity or polarity.

 

I think...

 

That's the idea more or less.

 

You can fuse any mod into any mod with varying efficiency. No mod is useless once you get a maxed version of said mod.

 

If a Fury Mod is going to be of variable, and demurred, efficacy for use on a mod that is not a duplicate Fury (say, use Fury mod to ineptly rank up Serration), then why would I want to do this at all when I could instead turn it into a Fusion Core that would be a standardized format, one that has little to no guess work involved?

 

Let's step away from turning this into Abstraction Astronomy (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html) and follow the KISS principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle).

 

- Put Mod In

- Hit Salvage/Recycle Button

- Get Fusion Core Out

- Use Fusion Core

 

So easy a caveman can do it.  And it took less than 15 minutes (because everyone understands how the already existing Transmute UI works).

Edited August 12, 2013 by Adianoeta

[MeteorKing]

You gave a bad example since Fury actually shares a polarity with Serration...  As is, the idea is good, but the numbers are not.  The only way you would come out ahead is if you're using commons of unsimilar polarity.

[Adianoeta]

You gave a bad example since Fury actually shares a polarity with Serration...  As is, the idea is good, but the numbers are not.  The only way you would come out ahead is if you're using commons of unsimilar polarity.

 

I disregarded the whole polarity idea entirely.  On purpose.  My point is productivity, both in function and form.

 

By form, I mean the whole concept itself.  It turns time equity into usable assets.

 

By function, I mean that the actual activity itself should be short, sweet and simple.  Painless.  If we turn this into some esoteric chess game of, "XYZ mod excels at ranking up ABC mod, but if DEF condition exists, then apply positive/negative modifier of JKL..."  That scenario entirely defeats the form, it defeats the whole concept of aiming for productivity.  Productivity is lost.  Game time is sacrificed for pedantic plan time.

 

This thought is carried over to the actual code: somebody's going to have to take a lot of time and effort to devise a new UI just for fusing Mods into other Mods.  Not to mention a whole different set of Rank Escalation values/tables, as posted by John0ates.  John0ates' concept could work, but it doesn't address the Fusion Values for Mods that aren't of matching polarities.  See the complexity stacking?  Anyway, let's get back to the heavier workload: a potential UI change.

 

"Well, why not just use the current system we have and make all Mods available as Fusion-Friendly Assets?"  That would work, just turn all Mods into Substitute Fusion Cores and the current UI would be fine.  It would look like this:

1) Click On Fast Deflection Mod

2) Click Fusion Button

3a) Select Fusion Cores for Rank Escalation

OR

3b) Select Mods for Rank Escalation

4) Click Apply Fusion

 

Works just like we want it to, right?  Wrong.  There are several corner/edge cases that would be disastrous to experience and for DE to wrestle with.  One specific corner/edge case comes to mind: you accidentally use a Maxed Rank Mod because you're speed clicking through all your Redirection mods and accidentally hit that one you were saving.  Oops.  You were wondering why there was such a huge boost to the side bar...  Time to go cry in a corner.

 

That scenario is less of a corner/edge case than it is a very real risk during nominal operating parameters with the current paradigm.  It can and will happen.  It is a problem that would occur as a normal use case.  Consequently, DE would be forced to work up a new UI.  Why do that when they already have the Transmute UI that needs a few tweaks to accommodate the Salvage concept.  As an aside, yes, I realize that "use case" discussions are primarily for software bugs, but I'm using it to illustrate the problems here.  

 

Let's keep it simple.  We know how to execute trade with dollars, quarters, dimes, nickels and pennies.  We know how to use Fusion Cores.  We know that recycling takes a soda can and makes raw aluminum with some resource loss.  If DE were to mess around with using existing Mods as Substitute Fusion Cores, it turns into a gold and silver exchange.  It's ugly, it's messy and confusing.  Don't believe me?  Listen to this story about a real-life example of ugly, messy and confusing: PorcFest (http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/06/29/137478762/the-tuesday-podcast-libertarian-summer-camp).

Edited August 12, 2013 by Adianoeta