Hawk Eye & Eagle Eye Should Reduce Spread Too

[Pekku]

I actually LOL'd.

 

Buff the ones that NEED a buff. Not the ones that are working and effective.

 

And most importantly, don't do anything that pushes us even further into an optimal, single build. A single mod that make short/med weapons get the primary benefit of snipers (dealing effective damage, quickly at long range) reduces the build diversity in the game. There's simply no way around that.

 

Do you think MORE ppl will want to use snipers after this change? Or less?

 

Actually it would create more diversity because some people would start sacrificing damage mods to make their weapons more accurate. While some others, like me, would still prefer to keep all the damage and just do it up close and personal.

 

PS: The DPS chart is irrelevant and absolutely doesn't reflect on a weapon's actual performance. Example, a fully modded Braton can't possible hope to take down a level 100 heavy grineer with a full magazine to the face while a similarly modded Lanka can with 1-2 shots to the head. There's just too many variables you're not taking into account.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Pekku

[notionphil]

Actually it would create more diversity because some people would start sacrificing damage mods to make their weapons more accurate. While some others, like me, would still prefer to keep all the damage and just do it up close and personal.

 

So tell me, do you think more OR less people would use actual Snipers after this change? Be honest.

Edited August 22, 2013 by notionphil

[CaptainohCaptain]

So tell me, do you think more OR less people would use actual Snipers after this change? Be honest.

Same. Sniper rifles is not the thing about being effective, it's about being able to 1shot more enemies.

It's like Lex builds — only dual mods brought some popularity to utility parts, the most popular build is pure DPS.

[Pekku]

So tell me, do you think more OR less people would use actual Snipers after this change? Be honest.

 

The numbers would remain largely the same. People who want sniper rifles, use sniper rifles. Like I said earlier, a slightly weaker, more accurate Braton/Gorgon/Supra/(insert name) isn't going to suddenly make people not want to use sniper rifles. They will still be filling in different roles.

[notionphil]

Same. Sniper rifles is not the thing about being effective, it's about being able to 1shot more enemies.

It's like Lex builds — only dual mods brought some popularity to utility parts, the most popular build is pure DPS.

The numbers would remain largely the same. People who want sniper rifles, use sniper rifles. Like I said earlier, a slightly weaker, more accurate Braton/Gorgon/Supra/(insert name) isn't going to suddenly make people not want to use sniper rifles. They will still be filling in different roles.

I obviously disagree. The effective combat role of a sniper is not "one shot one kill etc" - It's to quickly kill at range.

Hardcore sniper fans, they are into that one shot one kill thing. Others, like me, simply want to be able to kill reliably at long range as well as short. I have seen many people use lex, seer, latron for this purpose. That is why I have a diverse loadout. Flux/Seer. Ogris/Spectra. Etc.

This idea simply removes more choices that the player must make. "Lets just make our close range weapons more effective at long range also, so that we don't have to choose! Why? We don't like those boring long range weapons, they are too slow." That is how I read the OP.

If you make a Vasto which has something like 2x the DPS of the Lex and 50% more DPS than the Seer, have nearly 100% accuracy at range it will totally remove the entire purpose of sniper sidearms. The same will occur with latron/prime and even snipertron vandal, depending on how much accuracy boost this mod gives.

Unless there are drawbacks to the mod, I think this is a horrible idea. If you want build diversity, you'd suggest that this mod makes your weapon more snipery but less machine-gun like, at least when zoomed in. This is like those threads that say "semi auto weapons need to be made auto!", and "burst weapons shouldn't have recoil!". Why don't we also make shotguns snipe, and snipers have full auto mode and extended clip in one mod?

I'm into creative mods...but each weapon needs pros and cons people!

Edited August 22, 2013 by notionphil

[CaptainohCaptain]

I obviously disagree.  The effective combat role of a sniper is not "one shot one kill etc" - It's to quickly kill at range.

Quickly kill at range? Are you on drugs or something? Warframe doesn't even have them except for 1 (one) void room (Raid artifact room), two corpus parts (one Moon extraction, one moon outdoor) and grineer boss arena.

In warframe (and in most of the goddamned games, from CS to Borderlands), the only purpose of sniper rifle is oneshot. You can't find actually high distance to use it without distraction by precise enemy fire. If you are talking about sniper rifle when we talking about quick kill at range, you can't count.

[notionphil]

Quickly kill at range? Are you on drugs or something? Warframe doesn't even have them except for 1 (one) void room (Raid artifact room), two corpus parts (one Moon extraction, one moon outdoor) and grineer boss arena.

In warframe (and in most of the goddamned games, from CS to Borderlands), the only purpose of sniper rifle is oneshot. You can't find actually high distance to use it without distraction by precise enemy fire. If you are talking about sniper rifle when we talking about quick kill at range, you can't count.

 

I guess you've run out of points and are now bringing in other topics and insults to try and solidify your position. Not effective.

 

I'm not talking about other games. I'm talking about WF. Range in WF is exactly what the OP said it was, where his shots from Vasto were slightly innaccurate and thus made him want more accuracy. Its across a room of 150-300 meters etc. Its not currently effective to use a Vasto/Braton etc at that range bc of the spread, even if zoomed in. It is effective to use a latron, seer, lex, or a true sniper such as lanka sniper vandal etx.

 

We are discuss whether making vasto et al effective at that range would reduce or increase build diversity. Feel free to join in that convo. Lol.

[Pekku]

@notionphil

 

Good lord you are ignoring every reasonable point everyone has every brought up and is excessively exaggerating how overpowering a slight accuracy increase in the form of a mod would be. Bear in mind weapons that are decent in medium to long ranges are already doing a very good job, and having it being slightly more accurate wouldn't suddenly turn into a game breaker. Giving "close range weapons" a bit more accuracy isn't going to suddenly make it a sniper rifle. We are not expecting to slap this mod on a Hek and have the whole spread fire on a dime. We are not expecting the Gorgon to replace the Latron.

 

Also bear in mind that in order to use this mod people would have to sacrifice one of their existing mods, and at this point, it's usually a damage mod. So it's creating diversity in the sense that some people will opt to have less damage but a better means to take out further targets; as opposed as to everyone currently just slapping on as many damage mods as possible. Sniper rifles do not have to gimp themselves in the damage department to work. Do you understand?

 

Moving on. Again, assault and sniper rifles play a very different role, no matter how accurate they may be. If accuracy is king then everyone would just roll with the Dera, like I said earlier. Fast firing, low damage weapons are very good at taking out large numbers of grunt units. On the other hand, sniper rifles will always trump the one-shot and heavy-killing department on account of the base damage scaling and various inherent properties they always come with.

 

I have no idea why you are so adamant that a small bonus on an otherwise useless mod would be game breaking. Should there be a con to Serration? Maybe it should reduce accuracy because it increases damage! Maybe reload speed mods should lower your magazine size! At this point I'm just convinced you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

[CaptainohCaptain]

 Its across a room of 150-300 meters etc. 

You don't have such rooms, lol

Edited August 22, 2013 by Icouldjustkissyou

[notionphil]

@notionphil

 

Good lord you are ignoring every reasonable point everyone has every brought up and is excessively exaggerating how overpowering a slight accuracy increase in the form of a mod would be. Bear in mind weapons that are decent in medium to long ranges are already doing a very good job, and having it being slightly more accurate wouldn't suddenly turn into a game breaker. Giving "close range weapons" a bit more accuracy isn't going to suddenly make it a sniper rifle. We are not expecting to slap this mod on a Hek and have the whole spread fire on a dime. We are not expecting the Gorgon to replace the Latron.

 

...

 

I have no idea why you are so adamant that a small bonus on an otherwise useless mod would be game breaking. Should there be a con to Serration? Maybe it should reduce accuracy because it increases damage! Maybe reload speed mods should lower your magazine size! At this point I'm just convinced you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

You are expecting the Vasto to gain the gameplay function of the Lex and Seer, while keeping it's original role. That was in the actual OP...

 

Your point 2 is fair enough, since we haven't talked any numbers, how much accuracy are you suggesting?

 

Why do you think the Vasto has 2x DPS of Lex and 40% more than Seer? For fun? Randomly? No, because the ability to kill targets at long range is a really valuable addition. So great that the reduced ability to kill in medium/short range is worth the trade off.

 

I don't think a "small" bonus to accuracy is game breaking. I think having weapon A be good at only A and then creating a mod that makes weapon B equally good at A and B is poor design and going in the wrong direction - more sameness of builds.

 

To address your second point...Serration affects every Rifle in the same way. If Serration only significantly benefited long range weapons I would also argue that it would need a detriment to keep them in balance with short/med range ones. The mod you are suggesting only benefits close/med range weapons.

Edited August 22, 2013 by notionphil

[notionphil]

@notionphil

 

Moving on. Again, assault and sniper rifles play a very different role, no matter how accurate they may be. If accuracy is king then everyone would just roll with the Dera, like I said earlier. Fast firing, low damage weapons are very good at taking out large numbers of grunt units. On the other hand, sniper rifles will always trump the one-shot and heavy-killing department on account of the base damage scaling and various inherent properties they always come with.

 

 

 

Oops missed this part.

 

If Dera was hitscan + zoomed in + 100% accurate...we'd see a ton more Dera's around (you know it! :P ). I didn't say accuracy was king...effectiveness is king :)

 

Dera is not effective at long range. I have mine potato'd beleive me it's not a long range gun by any means. Lanka projectile is much faster. So is seer.

 

I'm not arguing to argue - I really believe this idea would reduce the purpose of having a 'pocket sniper' or even using a sniper outright for many people. We can disagree, no offense taken, none intended. This is a forum for the purposes of airing ideas and getting feedback. Hopefully all of us just want to see this game be as good as possible.

Edited August 22, 2013 by notionphil

[Pekku]

@notionphil

 

Once again, you ignore everything else besides that idea you have that making weapons a little bit more accurate via a mod is going to cause it to replace others. Once again, I tell you that it is going to not. Any weapon that might replace any other by means of a small accuracy boost means that it was already as good as the other one to begin with. Plus, the Seer doesn't need a mod for it's current level of zoom and accuracy, allowing it to focus on damaging mods. A Vasto for example, if it were to use this hypothetical mod, would handicap it's own damage or other sort of advantage that would derive from an additional mod not spent on Hawkeye. In this respect, nothing is going to replace the Seer or any "pocket sniper" in it's main functionality but merely provide players with more options to build their favorite weapons.

 

I reiterate, accuracy alone doesn't define the role of a weapon. A lot of other factors play into this, including base damage, rate of fire, damage type, crit multipliers, etc. Even if you suddenly gave the Braton 100% accuracy, people not going to suddenly start using it over any actual sniper rifle or I even dare say the Latron. And we're not even talking about something as drastic as that, realistically, the mod might reduce spread by let's say... 20% max. Now go take a Braton and fire it into a wall at full auto. Is a 20% smaller spread that game breaking? Especially at the cost of a mod slot? No. I'm done with this discussion and if you still feel like preaching your exaggerated ideas, go on ahead.

[notionphil]

@ pekku I understand your opinion, I believe you understand my opinion. We disagree but i appreciate you taking the time to clarify and also listen.

[PaperAlien]

While we're at it we should also buff Eagle Eye. It makes sense for rifles to be able to zoom further.