Making Mr Relevant Again...

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

So it was suggested to post this here based off of feedback in another related topic here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/488055-power-leveling-vs-frame-experience-inspired-by-but-not-about-draco-threads/

 

For those not wanting to read the entire thing, the gist was to improve the level of play experience by making it so you have to level a frame to 30 and add a forma to be allowed into certain areas to power level (or level things quickly). Please feel free to comment in that thread if you have other ideas or constructive criticism to contribute to that idea.

 

For here, we are focusing on one aspect which came out of the conversation. Making MR relevant again. I have seen time and time again where players are saying MR is no longer relevant because someone can just catch a taxi to Draco (or other power leveling spot, not picking on one specifically) get all the most powerful stuff, leveled quickly thus reaching MR whatever number so that MR does not necessarily equate competency or proficiency with your frame other than in that situation. 

 

Taking the basics of the idea from the other thread, LordPuck had suggested making frame tests to be included. This got me to thinking. We already have a test system in place, why not just make it count for something? My idea was to revamp the tests to coincide with leveling your first frame to 30. So that you took tests as you reached levels with your frame (bearing in mind that we are working on the premise that you can not just power level your way there based on the restrictions to get to those nodes/areas). Further, test could be added to MR which use the specific abilities of each frame. This would serve two purposes. A) You would get a chance to practice and test using frame specific abilities B) for each subsequent frame you level, you would only take those tests that are frame specific as no one would want to take all of the tests over again. This gives new players the opportunity to play and learn their frames in a "set pace" if you will, while not penalizing veterans for leveling up their subsequent frames. 

 

Obviously, this is just a bare bones version. But if the overall idea is to elevate the level of play of even the average, casual player, this would only benefit the community as a whole.

 

Comments, ideas, and constructive criticism are very welcome.

 

Thanks for reading!

Edited July 14, 2015 by (PS4)CowboyJeff72

[GDSK-NXS]

Looks fair to me (at least the most basic idea)

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

That's good to hear because balancing it between giving new players time to learn the game mechanics and how to use their frame and all of it's abilities while not holding back veterans who are moving onto their next frame is very important.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

I want this but Im not sure about a few issues.

1) Would each frame now = 1 MR?

 

I have more questions but they are based on yes/ no / maybe for 1.

Edited July 14, 2015 by (XB1)LordPuck

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

So your initial frame would be your learning/progression frame. Think about it as:

1) New player chooses frame

2) New player spends the required time leveling frame to 30

3) Instead of MR tests being randomly done, now you tie them to specific levels (granted, this may mean reworking MR tests and rank entirely to fit together) So if we leave frame leveling at 30, we reduce MR to 15 tops so you take a MR test for every two levels. 

4) Four out of those 15 tests are frame specific ability tests.

 

Now, new player has leveled to 30 is MR 15 and is ready to forma. The idea being that the new player has spent some time playing the game and learning their frame and can now gain access to re-level that frame quicker (after forma, no MR tests required).

 

Each subsequent frame would only be tasked to take the frame ability tests, so that veteran players do not have to retake every MR test again. The ability tests could even be more like a tutorial rather than just "use this ability five times in 30 seconds". So you get an explanation of what it does, how to use it, and some practice with it during the test. Just tie those tests to the corresponding level where the ability is gained by the frame. 

 

Hope that was clear.

Edited July 14, 2015 by (PS4)CowboyJeff72

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

So one frame can get you to MR 15?

 

Id rather see a MR per frame.

1MR for Excal

1 MR for Volt

1 MR for Odanata

1 MR for Itzal

 

Each Frame/wing should = 1 MR

Completing all mission types should = 1 MR

Unlocking all planets = 1 MR

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

It really depends on how you want to make MR work I suppose. Currently I see a lot of complaints that MR is irrelevant in it's current format. This I can only assume is in part due to players ending up in groups where there is someone with say MR 17 who has a completely decked out set up, but proceeds to completely blow the mission for lack of real experience because they taxi'd to one of the higher level "power leveling" areas and rushed through collecting xp to achieve a higher MR at the sacrifice of actually learning the frame and how to use it. 

 

The only problem I see with MR per frame/Archwing is that you are taking it too far in the other direction and making it too hard to reach in a reasonable amount of time. 

 

Think about it in gaming hours. The system has to be balanced for the casual player who can only spend a few hours a week playing and the person who is putting hundreds of hours of gaming in. The idea is to make the first frame level 30 and MR take long enough so that someone has time to truly learn the frame, but not so long that people get bored or tired of it and just quit. So if this works like I would hope, we would get a MR 15 player with say Excalibur that knows the frame, it's abilities, how to use them, and a good understanding of the game mechanics and how to apply those in mission. Those same basic skills will carry over to each frame with the player only really needing to learn the new frame specifics (i.e. take the frame ability tests again). 

 

Though I can see a bonus rank for each frame so that we get what we are looking for in a good player, but also being able to see that by looking at their MR. 

 

Something like this:

MR 18

Frost (2) (30) - treat the (3) like the little number circle that currently denotes squad member number.

 

So seeing this on a perspective squad mate, you know they have spent the required time to get a frame to level 30, they have taken the time to level Frost and take those ability tests and that Frost was their second frame leveled out of four they have spent time on (which means they are definitely playing the game). I think by this point, theoretically, they should at a minimum be an average player that can hold their own in most situations.

 

Did that make sense? 

Edited July 14, 2015 by (PS4)CowboyJeff72

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

Not really. (didnt make sense) 

 

You say vets shouldnt be required to take multiple tests but youre forcing 15 tests on new players by 30 with 1 frame.

 

We need

1 skill/refresher test per frame/wing

Test at 30

Get forma

This allows more time to play rather than test in the limited time they have.

 

If the new Starchart has a clear sense of progression, flowing from one mission to the next, wouldnt newer players have an easier time finding players and finding parts in the limited time they might have?

 

New Starchart = easy mode for noobs, (hopefully lol).

Edited July 14, 2015 by (XB1)LordPuck

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

The idea is to not rush the initial 15 tests, but have them in a graduated and set time frame so that it doesn't take someone forever to complete it while still taking long enough for them to experience each of the situations in MR testing. 

 

Remember, the MR tests incorporate basic game skills which you should really learn with your first frame as they are relevant skills to various aspects of the game. Things such as hacking consoles/parkour/targeting are things you really should get a tutorial/test on before you forma and move on to other frames. 

 

Think of MR 15 as the base MR rather than looking at it as MR 1 being the base. MR 15 would represent someone who has a level 30 initial frame and has completed all the basic and four frame ability tests to reach that MR. 

 

Now they have other options. Forma and re-level. Pick a new frame to work on. Work on an Archwing. A lot of different directions they can choose based on how they want to progress. 

 

The problem with a true one for one is that what if you get a player who only ever wants to play Frost for instance? They want to be the best Frost they can possibly be and take it as far as they can. They could conceivably be stuck at MR 1 forever assuming they never bother with an Archwing or another frame. That now becomes unrepresentative again of that players time in game. I guess under this particular system, MR 1 would still be the equivalent of MR 15, but I think people like seeing that higher number and relate it as such (higher number = higher skill). So that part I think is a little of the mentality of how players relate the word rank in gaming. You are not only trying to balance the MR system and how it can be used to elevate someone's game play, but also you need to kind of pander to the psychology attached to those numbers without having to do a complete revamp.

Edited July 14, 2015 by (PS4)CowboyJeff72

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

But that puts us right back where we started. MR = nothing.

Gaining MR15  for a single level 30 frame may look cool but it really hasnt taught players about other frames. It also doesnt encourage them to aquire other frames or wings. 

It needs to be spreadout to encourage more exploration of the overall game and as a sense of accomplishment.

The frame tests can still be incorporated into the gt tests at this point. But gt tests should be part of some tutorial/ beginner missions, imo.

 

You cant get frost until ceres, unless you buy it. That is what I meant by clear sense of progression. The new startchart should lead to each frame, its up to individuals to actually build and play that frame.

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

No, MR 15 would now mean that the player has a good understanding of the basic game skills, is proficient with their frame, and can at least hold their own for some time in most missions. It's not just about specific frames as much as the overall experience they need. We only need players to be proficient with multiple frames if they are playing multiple frames. Let's face it, why do people spend time acquiring MR currently? Because right now, so many players in recruiting are using MR to select squad members. So players rush xp frames and weapons they never intend on using again just to take MR tests. This so they can be invited or tag along to power level/farm. At least by tying the first frame leveling to the tests, you are basically "forcing" them through a tutorial on the game itself, not just specific frames (even though you would have the four frame ability tests). You are not only fighting making the MR relevant, but also how it is looked at by the community as a whole. What we don't want obviously is for MR 15 to become the new MR 6 for example. We want MR 15 to be the "okay, this player has at least been playing awhile and should know the basics if not an expert at things" rank. Basically funneling new players through a learning progression rather than just dumping them in and hoping they find their way or that a veteran will take pity on them and show them the ropes. 

 

Frost was just an example. Because buying a frame is still an option. So if someone truly wants Frost and doesn't want to be bothered with other frames that are in the initial start up rotation, then they would still have to go through the standard progression rather than buy frame, power level, never learn to use it in any other format. Of course, you could just by pass this altogether and make every frame (Primes being the exception) available as a start up choice. This way you are letting someone start and learn with the frame that drew them in to begin with.

 

Granted, of course we would want someone to hopefully try more than one frame, but if that is all they are interested in, then I'd rather them be as proficient as they can with that one than spend their time leveling things to just get to a frame they want. Think of all of the hours that could be used for playing/learning vs. leveling if players could begin the game with their choice.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

 Im just going to disagree and step out to (hopefully) let others post their thoughts.

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

Nothing wrong at all with disagreeing. LOL No good debate ever came from everyone just saying "yes" to whatever was proposed. 

 

Don't step out just yet. I'd really be interested in seeing the breakdown for your frame = MR 1 concept. Because I don't think I am understanding it as you are envisioning it. 

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

Tutorial( gametype Tutorial after character creation/ story Tutorial) 1 MR

Each frame test 1 MR (all frames = MR 13? I lost count on nonprimes lol)

Each wing test 1 MR ( 3 wings)

Completing starchart(unlocking all planets) 1 MR

Completing 1 of each mission type 1 MR

= 19 total MR atm.

I might be off by a frame or 2 above.

Edited July 14, 2015 by (XB1)LordPuck

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

Ok, I see where you are going. But are you basing some of this off of that 19 will still be the MR cap? With the rework I was proposing with MR 15 basically being the jumping off point, the MR number would go higher than 19. So, initial of MR 15 after first frame tutorial/leveling/testing, then each frame/Archwing/completing star chart adds +1. So you complete the first requirements = MR 15, finish your star chart = MR 16, throw in 2 Archwings = MR 18, you work up four more frames = MR 22. So the two working in conjunction are very similar just that the numbers are higher than what you were thinking. I really like this concept.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

MR Tests in Symaris room on Relays goes to 30. I was already including room for expansions (content) in my mind.

 

Let me try to clarify further.

 

1) Pick starter character

2) Play regular Tutorial

3) Play mission Tutorial (1 of each gametype). Each gt is considered a mission like multipart quests. Complete quest get 1 MR here.

4) Play game, Vors prize etc get to level 30 with starter get 1 MR if you complete frame test.

5) Earn new frames, Repeat step 4.

6) Complete 1 of each type of Starchart mission get 1 MR.

7) Unlock all planets get 1 MR

 

 

As is you can get to MR 2 in 2days with xp but minimal knowledge. Starter frame + guns to level 4-8? I think.

With my system it would be the same but with a better understanding of the overall game through the use of skil and playtime, not  MR xp.

 

Veterans with all frames wouldnt need to retake the tests. Those that have all frames but are high MR may still choose to take the frame tests.  

This system is 100% for new players.  

Edited July 14, 2015 by (XB1)LordPuck

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

Yeah, thats the gist of it. We were getting to the same place, just placing different number values on how it was done. I think the only real difference is I was wanting new players to take the basic game mechanic tests within the framework of their first frame leveling to 30 (MR 15). With each test being a tutorial/test not just a test. Where it looks like you have yours spread out over a longer period of time. And repeating step four is new where I was just wanting to require the frame ability tests for each new frame rather than take a new frame all the way through the same process since the game mechanic portions wouldn't be as necessary on your subsequent frames (hopefully).

 

And completely agree for veterans already at MR with multiple frames. Folks already invested should not be penalized, but giving them the option to take the frame tests is a good idea.

 

Absolutely this is for new players. 

 

Good stuff, good stuff.

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

Been on vacation the last week, so just wanted to give this a bump to see if there were any fresh ideas to add.

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

This entire post makes mastery rank irrelevant. Unless I'm missing something the current test force you to learn basic skills including corpus hacking, stealth, accurate shooting, accurate shooting under pressure, and others. This system makes mastery rank far easier to get since its based of of proficiency on a per frame bases but seeing as it tells you how to use each of your abilities will cause lack of diversity among new players whos builds won't be original.

Finnaly the biggest issue, does this invalidate a current players mastery rank?

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

No, the idea is the re-work MR so that those in game mechanic tests are part of your leveling (with your first frame to 30). MR would have to be extended beyond the numerical 19 that we have now for this to tutor new players as well as not penalize veteran players. It's not meant to tell you how to use the ability, but show you how it functions (basic level, you would still have to play with mods to get your optimal build). So for instance, when you unlock the ability, instead of running around just spamming it (as I have seen newer players do to test it), the MR tutorial/test aligns when you reach that milestone so that you can see how it works and how it can be applied. Not meant to give you the end game result, just make you more familiar with it. 

 

The way MR is set up now, new players are doing things far in advance of when they are taking the MR tests for the same function. For example, new player picks Excalibur, by the time they level the frame to 30, they are already proficient at some of the MR tasks that are going to take them quite some time to get to (barring power leveling of course). 

 

The base idea is teach the basic game mechanic skills within the first frame they level to 30, adding in frame specific abilities tests, as well as some more advanced tests which would take the MR number beyond 19 (also if we add credit for things like what LordPuck has suggested).

 

And certainly not. The last thing we would want is to punish players who have already put their time in. Their current rank would be adjusted based on what they have already accomplished with some possibilities to increase it if there is something they have not previously done. Things like the ability tests would be optional for any frame they have already leveled to 30, but they would still get the MR point for each one.

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

OK but your still making mastery useless if one frame gets you to Mr 15 and I'm fairly certain that 30 will be the mastery cap so the proposed system gets you half way to max mastery without any real experience with the game.

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

Yes, this kind of relies on DE making the cap higher than 30. But its also not useless, because now instead of taking the tests whenever (new player power leveling and becoming MR 19 with little to no time invested in learning), you now have everyone go through the same process of learning and leveling to a certain point. All the details still need to be hashed out of course, but think of it this way.

 

Currently. Higher level players look for MR of a certain level or higher which they assume equates player skill level. So it is widely considered for example that anyone below MR 7 is a new player and will not hold their own in higher level missions. Yet we still see many forum complaints on MR 19 players who drop in and have no clue what they are doing. In these same threads we see where someone went in with a MR 6 player and had a great experience. It's all over the board. Veteran players who don't take the time to rank past 8 or 10 because it serves no purpose and new players maxing out as fast as possible because no one will taxi them any where if they aren't. 

 

Where as if you funnel all new players through this process, by the time they reach MR 15, they "should" at the very least understand the basic game mechanics, how their chosen frame works, and when to apply abilities. So instead of a MR varying so wildly, when you get a new MR 15 player, you know that player has spent the necessary time at least learning the game. By elevating the skill level of even your basic players, it provides a better foundation no matter which direction they want to go from there. Whether that be grinding, casual play, or completing everything. They should be able to drop in and at least not have their hand held. Will it make everyone an end gamer, no. Will it at least make most random drop ins on any mission more enjoyable? I am eagerly optimistic that it would. Now you have a true dividing line where anything below MR 15 is for sure a new player still learning the ropes and anything above at least has the basics down and has completed all of the mission types multiple times and can be expected to at least know what they are doing.

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

The High mastery players who are bad that you talk about who did power level also tend to be the players who screen via mastery (thus causng them to mass produce themselves) this would only makes this problem worse in that Mr will cap at 30 just like every thing else only Mr 27+ players will be considered high mastery so it would solve nothing

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

If that is how certain players want to measure, I suppose there is nothing that can be done about their particular perception. This was more about elevating all players base skill levels so that there shouldn't be anyone dropping into a mission not knowing about say, the corpus cameras (as mentioned in another post). 

 

While there is nothing wrong with wanting to play with like minded players, the idea is to get all players to a level where it isn't necessarily about using MR as a measuring stick for one type of mission as much as making a more well rounded player that can be dropped into any mission and do reasonably well. 

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

The make a better longer more in depth tutorial no need for all this just a better tutorial that actually explains stuff other than controls.