They See Me Rolling...

[A5PECT]

Wait. No they don't.

Because with a decently leveled (note that I didn't say maxed) Rush mod sprinting then sliding is actually more effective at displacing the player than rolling.

This has been bugging me for awhile: rolling rarely helps me avoid attacks. Hand grenades from Lancers and Crewmen, Shield Lancer bashes, Grineer heavy unit ground punches, Napalm fireballs, and Ancient Tentacles all move too quickly and/or have too large an AoE for a roll to evade. There are also the issues of grenade and tentacle attacks not being telegraphed very effectively, and shield bashes and tentacle strikes occuring with very inconsistent timing, but that's a discussion for another thread. Anyways, the only time I see success when attempting to evade the things listed is when I slide instead of rolling.

As it stands, a warframe can reach top sprinting speed in less than half a second, which is increased by the Rush mod. Then sliding accelerates the player further, pushing the warframe past its top sprinting speed for a brief perod. Both actions occur instantaneously after hitting their respective keys, as well. The speed travelled at during a roll is roughly the warframes base sprint speed and can not be increased by any mods. Meanwhile, the act of rolling itself suffers from a very small but very noticeable case of input lag, and in the case of rolls activated while aiming, a needlessly long wind-up animation before a dodge is actually performed.

In short, the "dodge" button doesn't actually help you dodge anything. Sprinting for a split second then sliding keeps the player out of danger more effectively. So at this point, why even have a roll function?

Well, because combat in Warframe can use some more variety, and players actually having to evaluate their current situation and decide whether rolling or sprinting would be more effective adds a nice bit of depth and skill to gameplay. Plus DE has already spent resources on those fancy rolling, cartwheeling, and backflipping animations and I'm probably not the only player wanting to have more of a reason to use those things. So here's yet another list of player-proposed changes:

(Quick note: when I say speed, I'm referring to the distance traveled over time, not necessarily the rate at which the animation is played)

- Rolling should have instantaneous acceleration (i.e. the player should be moving at maximum roll speed the moment the key is pressed) and the warframe should be leaving the ground. While airborne, the warframe should be moving much more quickly than its base sprint speed. Once the warframe touches the ground, it begins quickly deccelerating before coming to a complete stop by the time the rolling animation ends. The high acceleration and initial speed gives rolling the function of getting the player out of immediate danger while the decceleration spike at the end of the animation means rolling is still less effective than sprinting when it comes to traversing large distances.

- Have warframes accelerate to top sprint speed slightly slower, and have sliding not confer an acceleration boost if activated before reaching top speed. Sprinting should be used to travel large distances efficiently, not short ones.

- Give us a way to increase rolling speed. You can tie increased rolling speed to the increased sprint speed in the Rush mod, create a new mod that specifically affects roll speed, or re-tool the "% Knockdown Recovery" bonus found on Constitution and Handspring to increase both knockdown recovery speed and roll speed (rename the effect something like Agility or Reflex). The first idea is probably the simplest and will have the least repercussions on surrounding mechanics. The second I'm not fond of because while extra roll speed would be useful, it wouldn't justify the cost of a mod slot all by itself. The third is my personal favorite, since it fits in conceptually with those mods, and packaging it alongside knockdown recovery in the Handspring mod would make it a much more attractive investment of a mod slot and hopefully help encourage players to use it.

- Eliminate the input lag affecting rolling and remove the wind-up frames from its animation. The first is a minor technical issue, but the second (prevalent particularly when rolling side-to-side while aiming) is a design issue and a severe detriment to the gameplay experience. As an animator myself, I know it's second nature to animate a wind-up into actions, and two or three keyframes may not seem like such a big deal. But in a game as fast-paced as Warframe those two frames cause nothing but grief for players.

Good examples of games (that I've played personally) with good rolling/dodging mechanics are the (3D) Legend of Zeldas, Monster Hunter, Dark Souls, and Gears of War. In those games rolling and sprinting are both equally useful, but have distinct applications and knowing when to use which adds depth and an extra sense of reward when mastering combat mechanics.

Edited August 6, 2013 by A5PECT

[Ezard]

I completely agree with you :-)

 

Have sliding not confer an acceleration boost if activated before reaching top speed.

However, as far as I'm aware (I might be wrong), you don't get your sliding acceleration boost if you're not travelling at top speed in the current version of the game?

[A5PECT]

However, as far as I'm aware (I might be wrong), you don't get your sliding acceleration boost if you're not travelling at top speed in the current version of the game?

 

It's a smaller boost than provided when sliding at top speed, but it still makes a difference.

[Zareek]

I was just thinking that they could make rolling extinguish fire on you :P

 

ANYWAYS.. I actually like your idea for rolling, Ive noticed how useless it actually is, and no one uses it. So +1

[SwordAxeMace]

I don't think a new mod just for really would be really worth it, but I agree that dodge roll in its current state is rather useless

For a dodge roll it has an extremely long animation and feels really un-fluid

[A5PECT]

I was just thinking that they could make rolling extinguish fire on you :P

 

Well before that can happen fire must be given some kind of lingering effect; currently all fire damage is instantenous and the flames themselves are just a visual effect. I guess for now rolling can make a player resistant/immune to fire hazards for its duration.

 

I don't think a new mod just for really would be really worth it, but I agree that dodge roll in its current state is rather useless

 

I'm not a fan of it either, that's why I gave two alternatives to it.

 

For a dodge roll it has an extremely long animation and feels really un-fluid

 

The animations themselves are alright (cartwheels feel a little stiff, but diving and backflipping look good), it's just the associated lag and low movement speed that make them awkward and ineffective.

[litlit]

I'd prefer to simply remove rolling altogether. The way sliding works in this game honestly doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's fun: it feels fluid, it rewards the player for getting better at using it, and it gives players an amazing degree of freedom of movement. IMO it's the single best thing in the entire game.

 

In contrast, rolling is clunky, slow, nearly pointless, and flow-breaking (ever auto-rolled off an edge, only to auto-roll yet again into a pit, only to respawn back at the edge and auto-roll yet again into it?) Get rid of it. Make sliding throw off the Seeker balls and shield leeches. If you want to add a dodge mechanic, just put it on slide.

 

edit: Seriously, please, DE: whatever you do with dodge roll, don't make any changes to sliding. It works wonderfully right now and is one of the best parts of Warframe.

Edited August 6, 2013 by litlir

[stacey69]

When i see a twitch feed or a video or even play with someone who slides their arsehole along the floor to not lose stamina and gain speed i close the window or make sure i never play with that person again. It is a bug that has become in most peoples play style and is now irremovable due to people who would complain. Roll is a game mechanic there to help you and get you out of trouble. Complain about the delay and bad telegraph on missiles or napalm, yes i agree with you but it is Peer to Peer servers so this is not resolvable until we can choose who hosts.

 

Sliding on your arsehole is a gaming Tick. A lot of gamers have ticks. They jump jump jump. Or spin spin spin. These things are not natural and not good for the gamer in the long run. Removing them takes a lot of guts as people will complain like mad but if the gameplay is good enough and you understand gaming Ticks you can add something else even more fun that can affect the gameplay for gamers. 

 

If a game encourages a jumping Tick and you add a slow mechanism when the player hits the floor, people will complain. If you have their accuracy devalued while in the air then they will stop jumping and Ticking when they see an enemy and play as the game wants them too. They can then go back to their jumping around.

 

Same applies to sliding on your arsehole. Instead of sliding which has no purpose in the game anyway except on new Grineer levels were you slide under a pipe. You could simply have the player somersault instead of sliding. The player still get to appease their tick but also learns to get on top of boxes and obstacles. Try somersault into a wall run and shoot enemies as your on the wall. It looks cool, makes you smile and your friends go lolwtfomghahaha instead of seeing you drag your arse along the floor like a dog who has an anal problem.

 

This is what you turn Warframe into for me. I see this 

 everytime you drag your arsehole along the floor of a map.

 

Why Dogs Drag Their Bottoms: Common Causes and Treatments

 

Scooting --

 

When a dog drags its anus along the ground -- is almost always a sign something is irritating your dog. What's behind that irritation can range from infection to worms to inflammation. Some of the most common reasons dogs drag their bottom include:

Anal Sac Problems. Despite what humans might feel about the matter, dogs communicate with their rear ends. Specifically, they communicate with the smelly, fatty substance that comes from the anal sacs located on either side of their anus. Anal sacs can sometimes become abscessed, blocked, or inflamed. This is especially the case in smaller breed dogs. In an attempt to relieve the pain and discomfort, a dog may start scooting.

 

Please DE just pucker up and remove this. Add a somersault or something more fun for the Tick gamers. I do not want to see this everytime i watch a Youtube video or join a public group.

 

Thank you.

[JerichoFayne]

.........

 

I had something I wanted to post, but then I read "Anal Sack Problems" and I can no longer even.

 

You win the Internets today, Stacy69.

[ArsVampyre]

Can I downvote?  Please?

 

I like things the way they are.  I like sliding into an aerial roll and transforming that into a ground-attack. I don't need someone else's opinions about how I should play the game removing options.  If they want to somersault or dodge-roll, they can do that.

 

I think the big issue with sliding rather than dodging is that with the keyboard, dodging is more difficult to perform.  I can jump-slide pretty fluidly (even if it requires finger yoga to do it) but dodgerolling?  Not really.  I can usually do an aerial somersault to ditch objects stuck to my body and that's about it.

 

I also think that inherently, the dodgeroll is supposed to make you a smaller target and harder to hit, but the game itself doesn't make that useful because the shooters are generally pretty accurate, even at long range. They only miss because of the inaccuracy in their weapons.  Sliding lets you move quickly to some form of cover.  Perhaps rolling just needs to be faster and cover more ground?

 

But please, don't mess with sliding.  It works well, and I don't care if Stacy doesn't like the butt scoot (you're sliding on your ankle, BTW, so that your foot is under you and you can quickly get back up.  Sliding on your butt would require some sort of handspring/break dance maneuver to get back on your feet and be a lot slower).

[JerichoFayne]

What about if sliding made you inherently harder to hit?  Then it would have value as a mechanic in the game over sliding.

 

Simply put, it would be like blocking, only it increases your damage avoidance instead of damage reduction.

[stacey69]

Can I downvote?  Please?

 

I like things the way they are.  I like sliding into an aerial roll and transforming that into a ground-attack. I don't need someone else's opinions about how I should play the game removing options.  If they want to somersault or dodge-roll, they can do that.

 

I think the big issue with sliding rather than dodging is that with the keyboard, dodging is more difficult to perform.  I can jump-slide pretty fluidly (even if it requires finger yoga to do it) but dodgerolling?  Not really.  I can usually do an aerial somersault to ditch objects stuck to my body and that's about it.

 

I also think that inherently, the dodgeroll is supposed to make you a smaller target and harder to hit, but the game itself doesn't make that useful because the shooters are generally pretty accurate, even at long range. They only miss because of the inaccuracy in their weapons.  Sliding lets you move quickly to some form of cover.  Perhaps rolling just needs to be faster and cover more ground?

 

But please, don't mess with sliding.  It works well, and I don't care if Stacy doesn't like the butt scoot (you're sliding on your ankle, BTW, so that your foot is under you and you can quickly get back up.  Sliding on your butt would require some sort of handspring/break dance maneuver to get back on your feet and be a lot slower).

And you believe in the days of old, ninjas run 5 feet then fell on their arse then sprang back up again. Maybe they gained a tactical advantage of their enemies crying out with laughter "look at the ninjas making funny dog dragging their arse movements hahahaha" Ninja gains advantage through deception and wtfpwns all enemies with throwing stars farted from the same crevis they were just using to scrape along the ground.

 

Its a bloody twitch movement people used to abuse an in game mechanic that was not working. I know you love it. Its obvious people like you love to find something in the game that breaks all immersion and can't then ever do without because your now so used to laying your fingers backwards on the keyboard pressing shift and ctrl.

 

You need to read some of the reviews on this game and see what people think about it. They wont add a block button because of finger acrobatics but they allow you to abuse stamina and look like a scruffy dog scrapping its arse along the ground every 5 feet. 

 

Fooking great ! 

 

I give up...

[Ezard]

They wont add a block button because of finger acrobatics

There is a block button

[ArsVampyre]

And you believe in the days of old, ninjas run 5 feet then fell on their arse then sprang back up again. Maybe they gained a tactical advantage of their enemies crying out with laughter "look at the ninjas making funny dog dragging their arse movements hahahaha" Ninja gains advantage through deception and wtfpwns all enemies with throwing stars farted from the same crevis they were just using to scrape along the ground.

 

Its a bloody twitch movement people used to abuse an in game mechanic that was not working. I know you love it. Its obvious people like you love to find something in the game that breaks all immersion and can't then ever do without because your now so used to laying your fingers backwards on the keyboard pressing shift and ctrl.

 

You need to read some of the reviews on this game and see what people think about it. They wont add a block button because of finger acrobatics but they allow you to abuse stamina and look like a scruffy dog scrapping its arse along the ground every 5 feet. 

 

Fooking great ! 

 

I give up...

I believe in the days of old Ninja's didn't really break the laws of physics, nor did they actually have magic powers that allowed them to teleport or kill everything that was an enemy within x meters.

 

I don't think the sliding looks odd or is badly done.  I think it fits well with the wall running and some of the other absurdities of movement that actually make you feel pretty bad-&#!.  People have been sliding on the ground without scooting their butt over it for a long time.  They do it in baseball, they do it in dance.  Granted, they don't slide on their ankle but they're also not wearing a bio-mechanical suit of armor.

 

The slide reminds me a lot of lunging in fencing.  You have to position your feet and move your legs in such a way to quickly move back and forth.  It's unnatural but it works, and it's pre-planned and practiced. If that breaks immersion for you, so be it.  I've not seen bad reviews, just lots of reviewers talking about how much fun it is or how much potential it has.

 

Perhaps you just need to take a break for a while and come back later if sliding bothers you so much.  With things like the slide-attack and rewards for slide kills, I don't think it's an 'unintended feature' and I don't think it's abuse to use it to manage your stamina.

[Egg_Chen]

Rolling should do more than shake off leeches.... agreed.

 

Ever try it with a Scorpion?

You see one, you roll dodge, they still hit you.

It should, you know, help dodge an attack....

 

+1