Build Diversity Made Easy

[notionphil]

Update 10 introduced many new interesting frame mods relating to melee, movement and death/recovery, but outside of some exploitable builds, they sit mostly unused. This is not because they are poor mods, but simply because there are so many requisite mods for optimal operation of our frames that it's nearly impossible to fit any new mods in.

 

You need shield, you need energy, you need speed. We get it. Most players find the following Frame mods to be requisite: Flow, Redirect, Stretch/Continuity/Focus (2 of 3 for many Frames), Rush, Vitality (for some frames/players).

 

Assuming we'll equip all four powers, that leaves us with only 3 of our initial free slots to create a "build". Yes, we can hamstring ourselves by removing some of the requisite mods above, but that will likely decrease our ability to survive, use powers effectively and have fun playing the game. Thus, most frames end up built nearly identically, with only 2-3 slots of variation between them. Many interesting mods such as Provoked, Reflect and Maglev simply don't get used.

 

Many players request more mod slots as a solution to this problem. However, that directly leads to more player power (power creep) and less making interesting decisions. Here's how to add build diversity AND give the player more interesting choices, without increasing overall power.

 

Mod Variants - Different Variants of Key Mods that allow players to customize their build AND stay effective.

 

What if the Requisite mods had different varieties that fulfilled the same need, but in slightly different ways? Or with different tradeoffs? And most importantly, these varieties couldn't stack with others in its class. A frame could only have one Flow Variant mod and one Redirection Variant mod.

 

EX: (these are example mods, just to get the convo going. Numbers/abilities would need balancing)

 

Redirection Variants - Goal - enhance warframe survivability and prevent damage to health.

 

Redirection - Increase base shields by 440% at max

Redirection Field - Increase base shields by 360% max and slow enemies within 5m by 50%

Redirected Blast - Increase base shields by 280% max with a 30% chance of reflecting projectiles back at attackers.

Veiled Redirection - Increase base shields by 250% max and reduce aggro by X

Redirected Zeal- Increase base shields by 300% max. While shields are not full, melee speed is increased by 30%.

Redirection Gambit - Increase base shields by 150% max. 10% of all damage to shields is restored to health.

Monolithic Redirection - Increase base shields by 600% at max, reduce movement speed by 30%

 

Rush Variants - Goal, enhance Warframe movement speed and ability to enter/exit combat quickly

 

Rush - Increase sprint speed by 30% at max

Rush of Blood - Increase sprint speed by 50% for 5 seconds after an enemy has been killed.

Rushed Ascent - Increase sprint speed by 15%, jump distance, climb height, slide speed by 25% at max

Rush Attack - Increase sprint speed by 15%, jump attack and sliding through enemies ragdoll and both deal the same damage of slide attack of your melee weapon.

Gun Rush - Increase sprint speed by 15%, 25% bonus to critical chance while sliding, wallrunning, or in air

Blind Rush - Increase sprint speed by 40% at max, reduce max shields by 30%.

 

....and more. Flow, continuity, focus, stretch, vitality could all have families which lend themselves to melee builds, stealth, defensive, dps, etc. Same would happen for Multishot, Serration, and key weapon mods. The options are limitless, and more could easily be added at any time.

 

How Would We Get These New Toys!?

 

Everyone agrees that the drop tables are diluted enough, and adding 30 new mods which are all versions of eachother would only make it worse.

 

I think Variants shouldn't be dropped at all, but instead created via Transmutation via specific formulas with a 100% success rate. These formulas would combine a base mod (redirection), with a common mod card AND a special mod card, which I'm calling a Varia.

 

It's basically the 'Forma' of mods, it does nothing besides workingin Transmutation variant formulas. It would be RNG void dropped very rarely, alert reward or plat purchased.

 

EX:

 

any Redirection Variant + Cryo Rounds + Varia = Redirection Field (of the same level as the Redirection mod you used)

any Redirection Variant + Ghost + Varia = Veiled Redirection (of the same level as the Redirection mod you used)

...

 

This would allow you to take your high level Redirection and switch it to any other Redirection Variant that you had the components for....at a rather modest price. However, if you wanted to be able to freely switch between builds of high/max Redirection Variants, you'd need to level more than one up.

 

This allows new players to experiment to find out how new builds work for them, but still requires that they put in effort to get multiple builds/frames set up.

 

Why would I encourage Grind? There's bad grind (RNG based prime rewards behind an RNG key drop) and Good Grind (a sustainable, non RNG component that drops all the time, like cores). Good Grind that is rewarded, is part of the longevity of the game. Being able to switch between multiple mod variants at a moment's notice is a good end-game reward for putting your time in.

 

And if we don't want to grind, we can always use/plat buy a Varia and switch it rather quickly.

 

EDIT - thanks for insightful feedback from R3dzero's + blahdenoma which shaped the acquisition mechanism.

Edited October 14, 2013 by notionphil

[Althix]

... i like it

[WarOverlord]

Not bad.

[Althix]

yeah. maybe at some point DE will come to their senses and forbid to install dual mods and regular mods that share same effects on a frame. like BD and LT for a sidearm. cause it is a mess.

 

this idea of yours looks like thought out idea of dual mods.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Althix

[notionphil]

yeah. maybe at some point DE will come to their senses and forbid to install dual mods and regular mods that share same effects on a frame. like BD and LT for a sidearm. cause it is a mess.

 

this idea of yours looks like thought out idea of dual mods.

 

That would be a good idea, but i'm not even concerned about that scope here. Basically I just want to promote some frame build diversity, which is impossible when we only have 3 slots free in general.

 

DE can release all of the new mods they want but unless they increase energy/regen, shield, sprint speed, power range/dmg/duration - they are going to compete with all of the other mods in game for 3 measly slots. And if they do increase one of the above - we'll just slap 2 mods on with the same function and get even more power creep.

 

This lack of build diversity needs to end, and this is a simple way to end it.

[Althix]

yes. mod points are worthless. we can forma and this crap aura system. mod slots what is important.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Althix

[Gekker]

I think this is the best idea to increase mod diversity so far :)

 

Requires some heavy reworking but it actually gives DE a chance to rewok a few mods that have proven to be less effective than imagined or even some that may be too powerfull.

 

It would give us the ability to finally add these yet useless resistance effects (Antitoxin, Diamond Skin, Flame Repellent, Insulation etc.) to the Redicection family.

 

 

I really would enjoy this a lot!

[LukeAura]

This is a great idea. 
Would they be modes you can switch the original mod to or individual mods? 
Because a lot of people are going to be hesitant about maxing several different redirections as well as widening the mod pool with even more mods.  

[blahdenoma]

You could use Forma on a maxed mod to convert it to an unranked version of something in its tree.  Then you'd rank that Forma'ed mod up using the basic copies of its root.  E.g. you max Redirection.  Use a Forma to convert it to Veiled Redirection.  Rank that up with Fusion Cores and Redirection drops.  This would solve the problem of diluting the drop tables.  The small problem is that Forma is sort of a hard time-limited resource (one every 24 hours)...not sure how much of a pain in the &#! that would be.

 

You could change the Transmute process so that if you transmute 4 copies of a "root" mod, it randomly converts into one of the "branch" mods.  This also solves the drop table dilution problem, but I'm not particularly fond of the RNG aspect of this solution.  However, it does have the advantage of not having to max the root mod...which is fairly difficult to accomplish with things like Redirection and Vitality.

 

I'd also add a Vitality mod tree that incorporates each of the resistances.  Although, really...those resistances are pretty lackluster.

Edited October 7, 2013 by blahdenoma

[Relkin]

I would actually like to see the ability to make custom dual effect mods, like you max a mod out and based upon the # of ranks/rarity it has total you can input X ranks of another mod which will remove X ranks from the mod you're slapping it on. 

[r3dzer0]

I think itd be a fun idea, but our drop tables are already diluted beyond comparison.  Been  killing as many leech ospreys as i can and still no split chamber :(

 

I wonder how you would approach weapons? obviously we should limit it to one elemental mod( kill the rainbow build if armor 2.0 actually works !!!)

 

Nice post as always Notionphil

[Lachryphage]

I approve.

[Gekker]

Just thought about this and I see a little problem with this.

 

Having several Redicection variants does not increase mod varity. Since its a level 10 mod it will be nearly impossible to max several of those. I have 680h logged in and am nearing my second level 10 mod which is Redicection.

 

You will most likely equip the most advanced mod instead of the one you currently need.

 

 

Maybe we could explore this a little more and create equipped mod stacking or lets call it mod specialisation. So for example Redirection gets an equippment slot where you can add another mod ontop of that one that specializes it. Those specialisation mods would be mods like Flame Repellent that decreases shield capaity by X% but adds fire resistance of Y%. We could make it simple and say, if the specialisation slot is equipped the mod gets X% less effective but it gains an additional effect.

[Relkin]

Just thought about this and I see a little problem with this.

 

Having several Redicection variants does not increase mod varity. Since its a level 10 mod it will be nearly impossible to max several of those. I have 680h logged in and am nearing my second level 10 mod which is Redicection.

 

You will most likely equip the most advanced mod instead of the one you currently need.

 

 

Maybe we could explore this a little more and create equipped mod stacking or lets call it mod specialisation. So for example Redirection gets an equippment slot where you can add another mod ontop of that one that specializes it. Those specialisation mods would be mods like Flame Repellent that decreases shield capaity by X% but adds fire resistance of Y%. We could make it simple and say, if the specialisation slot is equipped the mod gets X% less effective but it gains an additional effect.

3 posts above yours :b 

 

I think this a better solution just because it lets us determine our customization and gives us something to do with those derpy mods like intrusion and warm coat. 

[honeybadger]

yeah. maybe at some point DE will come to their senses and forbid to install dual mods and regular mods that share same effects on a frame. like BD and LT for a sidearm. cause it is a mess.

this idea of yours looks like thought out idea of dual mods.

Unfortunately, that kind of nerfs Shotguns to the ground. Blaze and Accelerated Blast are very important mods for shotguns to scale without innate Armor Ignore damage.

EDIT: oh, i see you said frames only. Still dont know if I agree though...

Edited October 7, 2013 by honeybadger

[notionphil]

Thanks for contributing; awesome feedback and ideas, guys. My thoughts to all the below posts are at bottom:

 

3 posts above yours :b 

 

I think this a better solution just because it lets us determine our customization and gives us something to do with those derpy mods like intrusion and warm coat. 

 

I totally agree, I'd love to see Vitality Family mods also have some base resistances built in, or minor hp regen, minor vampirism etc..

 

Just thought about this and I see a little problem with this.

 

Having several Redicection variants does not increase mod varity. Since its a level 10 mod it will be nearly impossible to max several of those. I have 680h logged in and am nearing my second level 10 mod which is Redicection.

 

You will most likely equip the most advanced mod instead of the one you currently need.

 

 

Maybe we could explore this a little more and create equipped mod stacking or lets call it mod specialisation. So for example Redirection gets an equippment slot where you can add another mod ontop of that one that specializes it. Those specialisation mods would be mods like Flame Repellent that decreases shield capaity by X% but adds fire resistance of Y%. We could make it simple and say, if the specialisation slot is equipped the mod gets X% less effective but it gains an additional effect.

 

I think simple ideas are more likely to be adopted into the game.

 

The Mod Family concept is pretty simple and its also logical that you can only equip one type of shield for example. It won't require much other than some new mod cards and a "sorry, you can only equip one Redirection Family mod at a time" message to be added.

 

I do see your overall point, but I don't love the mod specialization/stack idea bc it would require a bunch of new UI components (mod screen within a mod screen), and add complexity to an already opaque (to noobs) system.

 

However your core concern is valid IMO. My reply is, It's a tossup. Both have advantages.

 

You have one high rank Redirection. Now you want a high rank Veiled Redirection for your stealthy play. Should you have to rank it up from 0 or should you just click a button and it switches instantly to Veiled, and back? Some players will only use their highest rank mod...but we want diversity, right? But we also want high level players to have goals to accomplish. So would ranking each build up individually be a good or bad thing?

 

Warframe is very grindy. However, most of the game is bad RNG grind, like primes and frame parts where you have a chance at a key for a chance at a drop. Grinding Mod rank is pretty much the only FAIR grind in the game. It's barely RNG dependent and it gives few-hundred-hour players like yourself and myself something to do. However, there aren't many mods worth maxing besides the essential mods, so even that is limited. This could give many more mods to spend time ranking.

 

Personally, I'd love to have one of each Redirection for different playstyles. If you hand them to me instantly, I won't appreciate them as much, so make me work for them. Just make it fair. More below, as this ties into other's ideas.

 

 

 

I think itd be a fun idea, but our drop tables are already diluted beyond comparison.  Been  killing as many leech ospreys as i can and still no split chamber :(

 

...

 

Nice post as always Notionphil

 

Agreed and....Thanks! Making them common drops would further dilute the drop tables, and since these should be encouraging build styles they shouldn't be painfully rare, in general. So I do like a variation of the proposed ideas regarding Forma, which I will get to below.

 

This is a great idea. 
Would they be modes you can switch the original mod to or individual mods? 
Because a lot of people are going to be hesitant about maxing several different redirections as well as widening the mod pool with even more mods.  

 

Great point again about mod dilution.

 

You could use Forma on a maxed mod to convert it to an unranked version of something in its tree.  Then you'd rank that Forma'ed mod up using the basic copies of its root.  E.g. you max Redirection.  Use a Forma to convert it to Veiled Redirection.  Rank that up with Fusion Cores and Redirection drops.  This would solve the problem of diluting the drop tables.  The small problem is that Forma is sort of a hard time-limited resource (one every 24 hours)...not sure how much of a pain in the &#! that would be.

 

You could change the Transmute process so that if you transmute 4 copies of a "root" mod, it randomly converts into one of the "branch" mods.  This also solves the drop table dilution problem, but I'm not particularly fond of the RNG aspect of this solution.  However, it does have the advantage of not having to max the root mod...which is fairly difficult to accomplish with things like Redirection and Vitality.

 

I'd also add a Vitality mod tree that incorporates each of the resistances.  Although, really...those resistances are pretty lackluster.

 

Right on...

 

We're talking about adding like 20-30 mods to the table, many of which are not rare. So yes, this would have the potential to significantly affect dilution in a bad way. Thus I agree that players need to acquire Family mods via another system.

 

I consider these mods to be advanced customization. If you don't have a Redirection at or near max rank, you probably don't need a Veiled Redirection. I love your concept that a Forma could be applied to an existing Redirection mod to change it to any Redirection family mod. However, I don't think the mod should have to be maxed - I think it should keep the rank of the existing Redirection mod when you change it.

 

So if you really wanted to make your Redirection into a Veiled Redirection you could. However, you'd need to grind another Redirection Mod back up if you wanted to be able to switch between both (at max rank) in an instant.

 

This gives advanced players a productive, non RNG based grind. Non RNG Grind isn't a bad thing. It also gives any player a 'plat option' to avoid the grind - Forma your existing high rank mod.

 

Win win.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I really like this.  I'll take time later to come back and fully read everything, but the OP itself looks great.

[LukeAura]

I find it worth noting everyone brings up more or less the same concerns with your idea. 
Perhaps it could be put that it is a simple split of the redirection drop rate amongst them all evenly. So collectively you are still likely to get a shield mod, and you are likely to get ANY shield mod and not just a few over and over again. 
 

[notionphil]

@ Luke the only problem with that is that lowbies still need the base version of the mod IMO. So in theory the variants could only drop from high level enemies or in void etc, but I believe I speak for all of us when i say that this game hasn't quite figured out drop rates.

So the my above take on the posted idea with forma solves the concern. No drop rate change, no RNG reliance.

[Relkin]

I find it worth noting everyone brings up more or less the same concerns with your idea. 

Perhaps it could be put that it is a simple split of the redirection drop rate amongst them all evenly. So collectively you are still likely to get a shield mod, and you are likely to get ANY shield mod and not just a few over and over again. 

 

The problem with that though is if you want a specific shield mod your chances will be abysmal.  

[r3dzer0]

-snip-

I like the idea of using forma on it to augment it, but instead perhaps we can have a different item to change it?  For the moment we'll call it an Augmenter(some one can come up with another name) and you could possibly have several types that would change it to the specific form you want?

 

Example:

you have redirection; Veiled redirection falls under augmentation 4 and requires #4 augmenter.  This augmenter also changes vitality or rush in much the same way. but lets say you need/want redirection field and that's number 1 so you'd require a number 1 augmenter.  That's just an idea.   or we can just leave it as 1 and it shows how many forma/augmenters you require to achieve the mod you're aiming at.

 

The final idea i have regarding this is making transmute do this.  like you need redirection and cryo rounds to make redirection field, or parry and redirection to make the reflective version.

[notionphil]

I like the idea of using forma on it to augment it, but instead perhaps we can have a different item to change it?  For the moment we'll call it an Augmenter(some one can come up with another name) and you could possibly have several types that would change it to the specific form you want?

 

Example:

you have redirection; Veiled redirection falls under augmentation 4 and requires #4 augmenter.  This augmenter also changes vitality or rush in much the same way. but lets say you need/want redirection field and that's number 1 so you'd require a number 1 augmenter.  That's just an idea.   or we can just leave it as 1 and it shows how many forma/augmenters you require to achieve the mod you're aiming at.

 

The final idea i have regarding this is making transmute do this.  like you need redirection and cryo rounds to make redirection field, or parry and redirection to make the reflective version.

 

Wow. That is actually a really awesome idea for obtaining these. Again I'd rather keep the changes as simple as possible, and transmutation interface already works perfectly here. I would just slightly simplify your idea...

 

With regards to an 'augmentor' I think a mod card called a Varia could be added to the drop tables/plat market/void drops; rather rare. These would be about as rare as Formas.

 

You could transmute any card in a family to any other card. EX: Redirection, plus a specific mod card, such as Cryo Rounds for Redirection Field, and a Varia card. This would result 100% of the time in a Redirection Field of the same rank as your Redirection card used.

 

Other Variants might require other mods, such as Redirection + Varia + Ghost = Veiled Redirection.

 

You could change it back to Redirection simply by transmuting a Varia and any type of Redirect Variant. You could also change any Redirect Variant to any other as well, without having to go back to the base variant.

 

When I get some more feedback on this I will go back and change the OP.

 

note: AFAIK you can't currently transmute mods that have rank. If this is the case, adding the Varia first would allow you to do add ranked mods to the transmute interface.

Edited October 7, 2013 by notionphil

[r3dzer0]

well i think it should functionally work exactly the same as a forma on a weapon, since you're adding a power to it.  So i guess in essence, lower the overall rank of the original mod, so instead of redirection (is it 13?) it'd be around 7-9 which is fairly doable for anyone and still gives a large chunk of shielding.  then have that be a jumpoff for everything else.

 

And for those that just want the shielding, you can have super redirection or redirection 2.0 where you get 13 points and it scales much better.  this way it would encourage people to transmute their varia with their mods.  Btw these varia could be some of the drops from your cells idea as well as be dropped in droves from an endgame set of levels.  just food for thought :P

[Spiffmeister]

Allow for customizations each time the mod each is leveled (similar to a skill tree) or allow for a customized effect when the mod hits max level.

 

Don't dilute the already stupid drop tables.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Spiffmeister

[notionphil]

well i think it should functionally work exactly the same as a forma on a weapon, since you're adding a power to it.  So i guess in essence, lower the overall rank of the original mod, so instead of redirection (is it 13?) it'd be around 7-9 which is fairly doable for anyone and still gives a large chunk of shielding.  then have that be a jumpoff for everything else.

 

And for those that just want the shielding, you can have super redirection or redirection 2.0 where you get 13 points and it scales much better.  this way it would encourage people to transmute their varia with their mods.  Btw these varia could be some of the drops from your cells idea as well as be dropped in droves from an endgame set of levels.  just food for thought :P

 

R3d I love your ideas...they tend to veer towards the complex at times but they are very insightful.

 

I think the transmutation concept is cleaner and easier, especially after the simplification I added. Variants would always have the same # ranks as the main. They aren't upgrades, they are variants.

 

Allow for customizations each time the mod each is leveled (similar to a skill tree) or allow for a customized effect when the mod hits max level.

 

Don't dilute the already stupid drop tables.

 

Agreed, read the end of the OP. Edited the end with feedback from the thread.