[8.3.0!] A Look At Mag [Suggested Tweaks And Noted Observations]

[Hauteclere]

WARNING : This will be a long post. There won't be a tl;dr. Please read all of it and help with the effort.

 

NOTICE : I now will acknowledge New Skill Suggstions, however I will prioritize tweaks over new skills unless directly told by DE that they won't mind replacing skills outright if they see the need. They will be placed at the bottom of the post.

 

NOTICE2 : Due to some coding issues with this post, I ask that you read through the thread as well. There's some worthwhile stuff in there I can't seem to link for you in the post. I will however be making small notes of 'who said what' in this post still for easy, and quick information gathering.

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This post will be designed to do several things: Showcase what I and many others have noticed about Mag, and what we personally believe can be increased, decreased, added, and removed. Its best to see this as both a guide to wielding Mag and a suggestion thread for improvements she could possibly have. This is not a thread intended to promote the nerfing of, or comparison of any other Warframe at all, though there may be small scale comparisons. (They'll be rare.) Of course we also know that Mag would become a shut-in out of severe depression if she were nerfed.

 

Due to the community based effort I hope this thread will become, there will obviously be the occasional suggestion to replace skills and other things already present on the warframe this topic is meant for. So I'll state my feelings on the matter: Overall I'd like for us all to look at what Mag already has, and see how we can improve it first before we start trying to outright replace things. If it's broken, let's try to fix it. Of course even with this opinion of mine we'll still acknowledge new skill ideas in favor of another more recent idea I've had about increasing the variety of skills any particular Warframe might have at their disposal, without changing the number of equippable skills.

 

With hope people whom find Mag is useless, or feel that they've made a bad decision in creating this warframe can look upon this thread and see that Mag actually isn't useless at all. Furthermore they'll also see that those of us whom main her are aware of her flaws and are putting forth effort to try and fix what should be, without overpowering her.

 

So as a notice :

 

- Everything I see suggested in this thread that I like will be added to the front page with credit to the poster.

 

- This thread will be experiencing constant first post updates for things I noticed, had suggested to me, and things I feel should be improved/changed/whatever. Please follow and check frequently. (Don't be afraid to correct my grammar or information either.)

 

- If you are rude to me or anyone else in this thread your posts shall cease to be acknowledged.  All participants should also practice this 'rule' so that we can promote constructive criticism and a friendly atmosphere.

 

Note : As such be aware that not everyone is going to agree with you, and you should not be expected to agree. It is however best put forth reason as to why you disagree in a civil manner so that we can at least attempt to come to an agreement. Its important to understand everyone's thoughts and feelings on these matters. So don't be intimidated.

 

Also : While adds to this post will happen quite often and without warning (much warning.) I will bring up a discussion involving anyone's suggestions to put forth reasoning as to why it could be removed, instead of outright removing it. I feel everyone has the right to defend  their opinions and suggestions. 

 

All data presented that proves to be perplexing will be tested, please feel free to assist in this testing, and put forth your own analysis. This is a group effort, so don't feel like you can't contribute or help!

 

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FOR OPTIMAL USE:

 

Requirements :

Focus

 Streamline and/or Flow

An understanding of tactics

Stretch and/or Mag alternate helmet.

(I know. It's fugly. But its useful. Trust me. Plus it kinda grows on ya. S'like she has a camera for a head.)

 

Nice to have :

Smart Teammates

Enemy Radar

More than one Energy Siphon in a party. (It stacks.)

Weapon with stun/flinch effect. (Preferably something with decent damage and is a melee weapon.) 

Redirection (According to BinoAl Mag has very good shields so increasing them only makes sense.)

 

Stats of Mag :

 

-Coming soon.-

 

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Pull

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Severe Problem Notice : If you are not hosting a party your pull skill may not work correctly---as in it may not work at all or require strange things that normally it would not! So please be aware of this when you're in a party. This may or may not be lag induced I am not certain. (Will be testing this.)

 

(Updated!) 1. Draws multiple enemies closer, and knocks them down. Great for gathering enemies in one place regardless of what they do!

Tweak Suggestion(s) :

(A.)Consider refining how the amount of pull can be controlled:

The current pull is amazing, when its working correctly, because now it pulls multiple enemies, seemingly without limit (This will be tested),  you can also control how close the enemies get to you based on how far away you are from the enemy--which is a great thing but isn't easily noticed by the nonobservant. I imagine with time people will figure this out, but its not likely without it being officially informed. That said perhaps a kind of graphical marker (Not an obvious one...Obviously) might be a means to assist in this issue. Not sure...we're working on ideas now.

 

(A2.) Single targeting for friendly or 'focused' pulling :

The new pull in my opinion is great, however lots of people are complaining about not being able to pull team mates---and while I believe this can be worked around by simply pulling the mobs away from the team mates to allow 'breathing room', and a chance to run in and save them...It might actually be even more intuitive if you were able to not only move the mobs away from the team mate (Making it easier to focus on a single player), but also move to another position to focus grab them away from the enemies before they get up. 
 

I suggested earlier in the actual hotfix thread that perhaps this can be done via the right click aiming system. When you're focused with right click you get the focused friendly pull, when you're unfocused you get the normal multiple enemy pull. It might still be good to allow the focused pull to affect foes as well---but perhaps only if you can actually see their HP bar. (That also might make it easier on programming.)

 

(C.) Notable suggestion by LazyTemplar :

 Consider allowing us to also push our enemies away :  When you activate the power normally it does as it normally does. If you are aiming down the sights, Pull converts to 'Push/Repel' mode. If you target a specific enemy, it pushes that enemy away from you.

 Has been suggested by Shifty_Shuffler to have this reversed. So aim (Hold Right) to pull and normal press to push.

 

 

 

Here's more on Mag byLemonz.(Old, but may still be relevant.)

 

2. Can pull the shields off of Grineer shield mobs.

(If you have Streamline and Flow maxed it's 8 energy. 8 out of 300. 8 energy is not hard to regain at any time with Energy Siphon)

Tweak Suggestion(s) :

(A.) Consider allowing the pull of weapons out of certain enemies hands. Perhaps not bosses but maybe heavy Grineer or anything that'd pose a significant threat to a party in a bad situation. Shields can still be something to pull away with the previous focus pull suggestion. (I wonder if all these affects on one ability are too much though? Personally I'm okay with the trade but...)

 

3. Pulls team mates toward you. Dead or not dead. (See A2 suggestion)

 What this means:

Team mate running into a crowd of enemies he might not notice he can't handle? PULL!

Dead team mate in a crowd of enemies or outside of cover? PULL! (It happens unless you solo. Trust me.)

Remote to television to far away from reach? PULL!

 

(Updated!) 4. Actually does damage better now. Might be affected by focus.  I'm actually pretty happy with the amount, as it seems to scale. (According to pluto.)

Tweak Suggestion(s) : 

If it's not affected by focus. It should be.

(A.) Consider buffing damage.:  Mag has very bad armor. Vitality only assist this for so much. However as a damage dealer that might change things. Buffing the damage done with pull can increase its utility toward using melee weapons in the situation where you've pulled an enemy and you can now see the whites of it's eyes.

 

Side note: Could you make ground finishers with melee weapons have a stronger priority or at least a different button command to increase that priority innately? 'If enemy on ground stab with sword doesn't sound so hard.' -Shrug.- 

 

Note on above : I'm starting to notice the melee finisher to be a little stronger in priority now! Thanks.

 

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Shield Polarize 

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{Updated!) 1. Designed to debuff enemy sheilds upon cast. Is a complete AOE that's easy to cast.

 

2. Now completely removes sheilds on mobs up to level 40 (As that's the highest I've tested.)  with R3 focus. (As I tested it only with focus.) : I'll require more detailed testing with shield polarize. The 8.3.0 mag thread points out the actual damage and things it does, and it appears to be scalable through Focus if shield removal isn't as great without it on a level 40 mob. Someone please assist me by testing this.

 

2. Can be used on the cryopod in defense missions for quick boost in shields. 

 

3. Can be used on Loki's decoy to restore its shields.

 

4. Has an AoE effect when used offensively that damages all the shields surrounding the intended target. 

 

5. When used on mobs being buffed by Shield Osprey, all mobs experience shield damage, and the Shield Osprey takes HP damage. : This seems to have been extended to not just Shield  Osprey, but also enemies. For some reason I feel like it is related to the strength of your Shield Polarize versus their Shield Boost. Like if you beat their 'buff cap' with your 'Debuff cap' it reacts violently against them. I wish there was a way to test this.

 

These are some old values from a test with Sheild Polarize that Hiryu64. and myself found for it's ability prior to 8.30, and how focus effected it: (The information below is qouted from hiryu64

Lv. 2 Shield Polarize (base 250 restore) with Lv. 5 Focus (30% boost) restores 325 shield points.

Lv. 3 Shield Polarize (base 300 restore) with Lv. 2 Focus (15% boost) restores 345 shield points.

 

We didn't have a Lv. 0 or Lv. 1 Shield Polarize, but I would assume that they restore 150 and 200 shields, respectively. That is unacceptable. I would have expected 180/360/540/720, or even 150/300/450/600. But as it stands, a maxed out SP with a maxed out Focus can only restore 390 shields.

 

 

Suggestion by hiryu64 : Click Here (Old)

 

These are the current values : Shield Polarize: Radial instead of single target. Radial damage around enemy targets that suffer shield drain. (Range(10,15,20,25), Shield(100,150,250,300))

 

Considering how damage appears to work in this game, whether or not it is affected by focus these appear to be decent values. Please correct me if I am wrong however. I will say the current default for drain is the same as what it might have been when hit by a max focus. This is still being tested.

 

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Bullet Attraction

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1. Designed to attract bullets.

 Does so very well, meaning from around corners and other obstacles so long as the bubble is shot by a bullet. Any bullet

 

2. Can be used to cause enemy bullets to be shot right back at them, thus providing you cover from serious threat for a short time.

Tweak Suggestion(s) :

(A.) Consider damage buff for all bullets involved in the attraction. Slight, or maybe medium increase? [Pending for Edit : Utility Design Notice] : A lot of people are asking it to directly affect weak points. Personally I'm not sure I agree with this, but alot of people are suggesting it should.

 

3. Apparently causes other enemies to stop shooting altogether or as much.

Tweak Suggestion(s) :

(A.)  Enemies still seem to react to the bubble--but it seems to be not as prevalent for myself.

 

4. Does not affect aim. All shots go to their intended places as intended by the shooter.

May actually assist long range aim from weapons with spread? [Needs testing.]

 

- Special Notice :

Bullet Attraction + Radial Javalin = Dead stuff.

Bullet Attraction + Heavy Grineers, Jackel and Hyena = Moment to breath, take cover, take advantage of the fact that they cannot shoot you. ( Not fully tested on all Heavy Grinner types. Collecting Data.)

                            A. Bullet Attraction + Napalm Grineer = Napalm blasts redirected at Napalm Grineer

 

- Noted weaknesses :

Does not work on laser weapons. Makes sense.

 BioCharge states that apparently energy weapons would be affected by magnetism after all. Something to look into, and consider. (I know very little about magnetism affecting energy in that manner. So I am posting the thought for those whom might comment on it. ) Does work on lasers.

 Enemies appear to be smarter than usual when bullet attraction is activated. They do not shoot as often, and when they do the damage is kinda pitiful. I'm seeing 1s and 2s. Even at rank 1 that's kinda...well...bad. Really really bad. [Reason Testing]

 

BinoAl states hat shotguns have no special experiences with Bullet Attraction aside from what other weapons experience, at least nothing worth sacrificing true aim with. Therefore Bullet Attraction is no substitute for aim at all. Understandable, I guess.

 

[ New problem! ] Bullet Attractor is now gigantic to the point of...well almost not being very useful. Simply because its range can pretty much devour the player, rendering its affects to only hit one target. Now...considering what its designed to do now, this can be acceptable so long as people are aware that they need to kill the affected enemy as fast as possible. : I think the graphical represnetation will be fine to alert players to that---but I will also state that there appear to be some bugs that disallow any kind of damage to be had while you're in the bubble. I'm not certain if this is host based or not, but I am looking into it.

 

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Crush

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1. Lifts enemies into the air before damage occurs for a solid few milliseconds. Perfect for smart team mates that realize they can shoot these things, and even kill them before the crush happens.

Tweak Suggestion(s) :

 (A.) by unmog and hiryu64 :

Consider having the skill ignore armor, or at least provide a knockdown chance to enemies that actually survive crush. Armor should actually be a horrible thing to have on when being crushed.

 

Note: It has been suggested multiple times in thread that armor could be used as a damage modifier. The more these suggestions appear the more I feel that I should list them so that Devs can see the various points of views regarding this, and how it just simply makes sense. 

 

(B.) by hiryu64 :

 Perhaps enemies should be more immobile or at least severely slowed while entering into the mid-air animations. People are getting killed while in the middle of casting before the damage can kick in.  By things caught IN the attack.

 

(C.) It wouldn't be so strange if there was some kind of debuff after the enemies survived crush. After all they were just balled up into a little ball of metal, and sometimes mixtures of meat. 

 

2. Affected by Focus highest damage possibility appears to be 1300? Bad at math. Please confirm.

 

3. Range is nicely (In my opinion) increased with alternate helmet. Probably even more so with Stretch.

 

hiryu64 on Crush : Click Here

Here hiryu64 talks about a few bugs and his concern about the invincibility frames Mag lost with crush.

 

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Full Scale Opinions of Other Mag Users :

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This section was more or less created because I realized how stuffed this post is getting, and they made an amazing amount of points about the Mag's skills. As such their entire posts will be given links that lead directly to them so that they can be read. I will be still applying their words to be noticed in the higher parts of this post however, so that it can be known that they DID say something without having to scroll all the way down here.

 

Lemonz's Complete Analysis of Mag :Clich here[important!]

 

BioCharge's Tweak Suggestions on Mag : Click here -Read the posts after it too.-

 

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Skill Replacment Suggestions 

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Beelzebubbles made a skill replacement suggestion for Sheild Polarize : Click here

This was suggested by several others in the thread as well, LazyTemplar too had this idea, but it was more of a tweak than an outright replacement. If possible I'd like to collect votes for this idea to see how much everyone feels they'd be okay with outright replacing a possibly useful skill like that.

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Please do us all the favor of supporting this topic if you agree with any part of what's been said, even if what's been said isn't contained in my post. Give who deserve it their rep boost, qoute posts that you agree with, write posts of your own with your own ideas and pass comments on ideas already given.

 

Just showing your support for what's been said will make sure this thread stays where everyone can see it. We're already going to be heard now that we're marked on the fourms. Let's make good use of our notice.

 

Make sure you also follow this thread for updates. They will happen as frequently as I get ideas, and replies.

 

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Threads that Deserve Notice

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These are some threads I found to possess great ideas and feelings on various matters. I said I'd advertise, and I was serious. Therefore I've posted them here. I realize it's rather low on the post...but I imagine people will actually scroll and have a look. Maybe the massive expanse of the post will guide people to the very bottom out of curiosity. ;D

 

Idea Threads :

 

Retaking Origin - A Suggestion for Perpetual Endgame

 A wonderful thread that suggests a pretty brilliant way to get players more involved with the idea of 'taking back origin' and combating the Grineer and other factions. I personally believe such an idea might actually bring incentive to just plain playing the game despite how it still relies on a reward system. Sometimes just bringing up the idea of a challenge can spur people to want to play. I truly hope this thread gets noticed more.  >_> I'm tempted to bump it again.

 

'Wait X Days for Your New Toy' is Going to Cost You Players

 Despite the opinionated title it actually has a decent reasoning for why one might put in achievements for special items, like skins, or even just achievement badges for us to do. A lot of people apparently have hit the 'end of the game' but have plenty of desire to play the game still...its just they're so bored its even hard to wait for weapons to finish. So, this guy suggest that they be given a set of challenges like achievements, which would span across multiple missions rather than just one...and have a reward aside from affinity or things that might not even be a true reward to one whom has almost everything or absolutely everything maxed out, save for what they're building.

 

Idea - Total Lock Downs

 This is a thread designed to increase the immersion of lock down experiences, and possibly even draw people into a more team oriented environment. While I do believe this is a feature that should be given much thought, I also feel that I wouldn't mind running into this occasionally in different missions. Please have a look~.

 

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Told you there wouldn't be a TL;DR.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Hauteclere

[hiryu64]

This thread is very important. Thank you for making this. I've fought off countless people telling me that Mag is awful. I've even been underestimated in games while playing Mag only to promptly shut them down through my performance, even changing a few people's minds on the frame.

 

That said, her abilities do need serious work. Considering her only worthwhile ability, Crush, recently received a nerf (in the form of removed invincibility during casting), it takes a significant amount of building up to make her properly playable. I will be monitoring this thread and throwing in my two cents where applicable.

[BinoAl]

I originally started the game with mag, before the reset. I generally played her as a tank/close combat frame, with strun and redirection. I did the reset, and got her again. This time around, I was very focused on her abilities, rather than gunplay. What I'm finding is that I rarely use her other abilities, I just spam crush as much as possible. I have max stretch + coil helmet + focus, and it practically affects as far as I can see. Her other abilities certainly need some sort of buff or change, as pull is nigh useless, aside from pulling downed team mates out away from lasers in the void to revive. Bullet attractor combos well with javelin, but the enemies completely stop firing a lot of the time when I use it, making it little more than a short reprieve from gunfire. And shield restore can be neat in endless defense, but for the most part, is rather useless as well. I find that in almost any situation, it is more beneficial for me to save my energy toward another crush, or to position myself for a crush, if I have the energy.

 

Also, redirection works wonders on her. She has naturally high shields already, so she gets much more out of it than most frames. Who needs armor and health when it takes ages to get through your shields? :)

Edited May 31, 2013 by BinoAl

[DCypherThis13]

This all sounds really interesting. However, I would like to hear all of your/others thoughts on this. Then I will voice my opinion. Keep up the good work.

[Shifty_Shuffler]

Excerpt : 

Rename the power to Magnetic Force.  

 

When you normally activate the power, it behaves exactly as it does now.

 

If you are aiming down the sights, Pull converts to Push/Repel mode.  If you target a specific enemy, it pushes that enemy away from you.   

 

A relatively situational skill now becomes significantly more versatile.

 

NIce idea, though this should be reversed. If an enemy is close, you want to push, so why would you want/have to aim, if you want to pull an enemy they will be further away so you would aim. Just makes more sense to me.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Shifty_Shuffler

[BinoAl]

NIce idea, though this should be reversed. If an enemy is close, you want to push, so why would you want/have to aim, if you want to pull an enemy they will be further away so you would aim. Just makes more sense to me.

I feel like dependance on aim is just too unintuitive. What about separating it into 2 skills? I'd personally like to see push replace shield restore

[Shifty_Shuffler]

I feel like dependance on aim is just too unintuitive. What about separating it into 2 skills? I'd personally like to see push replace shield restore

 

That would work, and would save the trouble of coming up with a useful skill to replace shield polarise.

 

It will be similar to Banshee's push skill (can't remember the name) but so what? I really don't mind if certain skills overlap onto other frames. If it means getting rid of the useless/unused skills that a lot of frames have, so be it. Plus having a push ability would really fit nicely with Mag. Really good suggestion. I also like the idea of pulling weapons out of enemies hands.

[Hauteclere]

This thread is very important. Thank you for making this. I've fought off countless people telling me that Mag is awful. I've even been underestimated in games while playing Mag only to promptly shut them down through my performance, even changing a few people's minds on the frame.

 

That said, her abilities do need serious work. Considering her only worthwhile ability, Crush, recently received a nerf (in the form of removed invincibility during casting), it takes a significant amount of building up to make her properly playable. I will be monitoring this thread and throwing in my two cents where applicable.

 

Ah that's right, I completely forgot about that nerf. I normally position myself in situations where I'd normally not have to worry about that---but this certainly still provides a decent point.  In defense that's highly detrimental to our survival even with a smart party.

 

Would you say that we probably need our invincibility frames for Crush back, or not?

 

I can't say I want the animation duration decreased for Crush removed or even be allowed to move, because there's balance in that, and asthetically it makes sense. Not to mention the duration of crush is a beautiful beautiful thing that lets you take advantage of so many windows of chance for dealing with the really nasty mobs. I have a friend that has the most powerful Strun I've ever experienced unload on a toxic infested while my crush was activated as much as he could, and that saved our bacon, my friend.

 

This is why I really wanna know if Continuity affects Crush. 

 

I originally started the game with mag, before the reset. I generally played her as a tank/close combat frame, with strun and redirection. I did the reset, and got her again. This time around, I was very focused on her abilities, rather than gunplay. What I'm finding is that I rarely use her other abilities, I just spam crush as much as possible. I have max stretch + coil helmet + focus, and it practically affects as far as I can see. Her other abilities certainly need some sort of buff or change, as pull is nigh useless, aside from pulling downed team mates out away from lasers in the void to revive. Bullet attractor combos well with javelin, but the enemies completely stop firing a lot of the time when I use it, making it little more than a short reprieve from gunfire. And shield restore can be neat in endless defense, but for the most part, is rather useless as well. I find that in almost any situation, it is more beneficial for me to save my energy toward another crush, or to position myself for a crush, if I have the energy.

 

Also, redirection works wonders on her. She has naturally high shields already, so she gets much more out of it than most frames. Who needs armor and health when it takes ages to get through your shields? :)

 

I'd only agree with you on the last part until I'd get smacked by a Disruptor or a Toxic Infested. XD But yes. Thank you for that input I'll note that when I put her stats up for everyone to see, and think of other mods that might be of use to her.

 

And yes, I also noticed that all enemies completely stop shooting at you when bullet attractor is going on. It's kind of annoying and defeats the purpose of it in a lot of situations. While I can understand it, I feel like it cheapens the skill to the point where you'd only use it on a boss---and even then when you do that its still barely useful.

 

I am however going to test its affects on shot guns with bosses and other things so I can have an idea of if I want to write a list of suggested weapons as well. 

After all this thread is intended to help players learn the Warframe better, along with also improving what needs to be improved. 

 

 

NIce idea, though this should be reversed. If an enemy is close, you want to push, so why would you want/have to aim, if you want to pull an enemy they will be further away so you would aim. Just makes more sense to me.

 

 

I suppose that does make more sense. In the spirit of what I stated earlier about not making new skills, which includes replacing them (I'm sorry.), I'll reverse this so that it won't have this issue. At the very least until we come up with a better idea for Mr. LazyTemplar's suggestion. I'll also credit you for the suggestion of reversing the skill.

 

[BinoAl]

I am however going to test its affects on shot guns with bosses and other things so I can have an idea of if I want to write a list of suggested weapons as well. 

It doesn't help all that much. The same thing can be achieved simply by getting up close to the boss, but it also makes scoring headshots tougher. With boar, it may help a bit, but with strun or hek, it's much better being able to score headshots with the tighter cones than to get all guaranteed hits

[Hauteclere]

It doesn't help all that much. The same thing can be achieved simply by getting up close to the boss, but it also makes scoring headshots tougher. With boar, it may help a bit, but with strun or hek, it's much better being able to score headshots with the tighter cones than to get all guaranteed hits

 

I see...This is why I think this need some kind of damage buff incentive, or at least be way more useful in its natural state than it currently is. 

 

Did this skill get nerfed from the way it was in CBT? I didn't play as much during CBT and I didn't get a chance to play with Mag. If not it almost seems like this skill and Sheild Polarize got weakened because they got scared of it being OP. Which is understandable. On paper Mag sounds pretty nuts without a little balancing done...but not to the point where it is right now. O o;

[Beelzebubbles]

My super-clever suggestion:

 

Replace Shield Polarize with a power called "Push".  After all, magnetic forces both attract and repel!  

 

Push does the opposite of Pull, which would be more useful for getting enemies away from you and for throwing them off of ledges.  It would be nice if the power had a radius of some sort, and for level increases to increase the distance that the target can be from you, the radius of the effect, and the distance/velocity of the force.

 

Stretch would increase the radius of the AOE and the distance that the target can be from you, while Focus would increase the distance/velocity that the target(s) is pushed.

 

Enemies that hit walls or other enemies would do damage and take damage according to their velocity when they strike a target.

 

Edit: Clearly all of these effects would need to be balanced if it were to be a 50 cost power.

 

Edit #2: Whoops, I thought you wanted us to add suggestions for new powers here too. My bad!

Edited June 1, 2013 by Beelzebubbles

[hiryu64]

Ah that's right, I completely forgot about that nerf. I normally position myself in situations where I'd normally not have to worry about that---but this certainly still provides a decent point.  In defense that's highly detrimental to our survival even with a smart party.

 

Would you say that we probably need our invincibility frames for Crush back, or not?

 

Hard to say. I do miss them. I would say yes if only for the fact that many times enemies are not stunned (roller mines, ospreys/drones, others due to glitching) or can still attack (runners can still explode while caught in a Crush, dealing damage to you). I would think that these issues should be rectified before considering returning her invincibility frames, but it should still be considered.

 

Also worth noting is that if you cast it and are interrupted by a Grineer heavy unit's AoE push, the ability will still trigger, but the Crush animation will be interrupted. Once you stand, Mag retriggers the animation without recasting, leaving her vulnerable. This is a bug that needs to be fixed, either with invincibility frames or granting her immunity to knockdown while casting. Additionally, the same holds true with frost floors in the Orokin Tower. Her animation will be slowed, but the Crush duration will be the same. Either grant her immunity to frost slowdown or lengthen the duration of the Crush suspension.

 

This is why I really wanna know if Continuity affects Crush. 

 

The wiki seems to indicate that it doesn't. Common sense-wise, I would also think that it doesn't affect Crush.

[Hauteclere]

First Post Edits :

- Redesigned recommended things. Added Mag's stats to reflect BinoAl's observation on Mag's Sheilds.

 

- Further commented on push suggestion by LazyTemplar, and added Shifty Shifter's suggestion.

 

( Other edits regarding this to come.)

Also...

 

 

My super-clever suggestion:

 

Replace Shield Polarize with a power called "Push".  After all, magnetic forces both attract and repel!  

 

Push does the opposite of pull, which would be more useful for getting enemies away from you and for throwing them off of ledges.  It would be nice if the power had a radius of some sort, and for level increases to increase the distance that the target can be from you, the radius of the effect, and the distance/velocity of the force.

 

Stretch would increase the radius of the AOE and the distance that the target can be from you, while Focus would increase the distance/velocity that the target(s) is pushed.

 

Enemies that hit walls or other enemies would do damage and take damage according to their velocity when they strike a target.

 

LazyTemplar suggested this first in the form of a tweak, and even brought up the idea of it hitting multiple enemies, which is what I figured you meant by 'radius'.  

 

Though the idea of it hitting enemies in a radius sounds more like you mean all around you, which would be a sweet add on to the suggestion, and maybe even be what we needed to sperate it from Sonic Boom.

 

Thank you for that, if that is in-fact what you meant. 

 

The velocity idea sounds wonderful but, I do wonder how difficult that would be to program in full effect. The idea of making tweaks is so that they won't have to outright replace a skill, but make it better until they come up with the time to do such heavy things as skill replacement.

 

Then again if it's going to do all that stuff, maybe it may as well be a new skill?

-Slowly considering removing his 'No New Skills' clause.-

 

@ hiryu64:  Thanks for your input, I'll see about adding those problems to the post where necessary. At this point I'm really about to just up and say 'Invincibility frames plox'. This is just me being honest, but I will simply put what you've said under Crush so that the Devs have something to think about.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Hauteclere

[Hauteclere]

- Did some edits on the OP :

 - Added hiryu64's insights on crush and other problems involving it.

( I took a screen of it, I'm lazy sorry. xD http://puush.me/'>Puush  is just too convenient. I'll actually write it out for the sake of making it easier to read when it's not almost 12 in the morning.)

 

 - Added Skill Replacement area in post for suggestions for things like that. Added Sheild Polarize replacement suggestion skill to that.

 

 - Added detailed info on Sheild Polarize and Bullet Attraction with tweak suggestions from  a player I talked to in-game.

 

 - Added Mag stats, will have stat comparisons to give you an idea of where you stand with other Warframes if you use Mag.

 - Forgot what else I did, but I'm not done. So whatever. Please keep giving ideas, insights, and keep checking on the thread.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Hauteclere

[unmog]

I actually made a post sorta related to this, it was just called Shield Polarize. :p But yea, same kind of idea, make it an AOE instead. The other ones need help too though. Crush would be nice if it ignored armor, or in fact the damage somehow was increased the more armor an enemy had. I wouldn't think walking around in a metal suit would be a good idea versus an enemy like Magneto for example, never turns out well for wolverine either. Pull should do damage, but if it knocked them down that'd be good too. Again agree with Bullet attractor, should increase bullet damage by a percentage. You cant get headshots with it when its on anyway right? Should make it comparable to every bullet getting a headshot with it on.

[hiryu64]

Crush would be nice if it ignored armor, or in fact the damage somehow was increased the more armor an enemy had. I wouldn't think walking around in a metal suit would be a good idea versus an enemy like Magneto for example, never turns out well for wolverine either.

 

You know, I was actually thinking about this earlier. It make zero sense for an attack that relies on magnetically collapsing a target on itself to be WEAKENED by the presence of armor. Not only does this make her worthless in level 3 towers, but it just DOESN'T. MAKE. SENSE. If anything, the presence of armor should strengthen the attack. But since that would just be absolutely ridiculous balance-wise, I think it would be good to remove the armor reduction. This would put it on par with Saryn's Miasma.

[Hauteclere]

I actually made a post sorta related to this, it was just called Shield Polarize. :p But yea, same kind of idea, make it an AOE instead. The other ones need help too though. Crush would be nice if it ignored armor, or in fact the damage somehow was increased the more armor an enemy had. I wouldn't think walking around in a metal suit would be a good idea versus an enemy like Magneto for example, never turns out well for wolverine either. Pull should do damage, but if it knocked them down that'd be good too. Again agree with Bullet attractor, should increase bullet damage by a percentage. You cant get headshots with it when its on anyway right? Should make it comparable to every bullet getting a headshot with it on.

 

 

You know, I was actually thinking about this earlier. It make zero sense for an attack that relies on magnetically collapsing a target on itself to be WEAKENED by the presence of armor. Not only does this make her worthless in level 3 towers, but it just DOESN'T. MAKE. SENSE. If anything, the presence of armor should strengthen the attack. But since that would just be absolutely ridiculous balance-wise, I think it would be good to remove the armor reduction. This would put it on par with Saryn's Miasma.

 

Okay I had balance reservations about the armor ordeal as well, but now that I'm seeing other people also thinking this....I'm gonna put it under 'consider' for crush.

Because it doesn't make anymore sense to me than it does to you guys. I keep thinking of all those heavy Grineer caked with METAL being crushed by Mag and surviving or at least coming out of it relatively unphased. ( I mean sure they take damage, but geeze...that's scary.)

If not complete armor disregard, I'd expect enemies to at least be stunned by the sheer trauma of having their resistances used against them. A decent stun, not a cute half second stun. 

 

Just say'n: The more people who express their feelings about this, the more priority I will express it being necessary. That goes for all suggestions.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Hauteclere

[Lemonz]

Mag's skill set seems fine as it is already.  Adding in a push skill would overlap with other frame utility skills.  Rhino, Banshee and Vauban already have knockback skills so a push-type skill would only oversaturate that role.  Mag's stats are fine and makes for a great tanky support frame.  Some players are forgetting that Mag was never really intended to be an offensive-type frame.

 

Made some suggestions in another thread, but will repost them here with some amendments for the sake of trying to keep things in a neat pile.

 

- Pull should have its cost reduced to 10 Energy.  The dragging effect of Pull seems to have a distance cap set.  This cap should be removed and the effect should drag the target for the entirety of Pull's range.  It's a great utility skill but very situational at best.  10 Energy would be a very fair price to pay for how situational this skill is.

 

- Shield Polarize needs a buff in terms of how it effects enemies. At its current state, the effect it has is negligable on enemy shields and seems unbalanced due to the fact that it is a skill that only effects shielded enemies. As a buffing skill for allies, it's great and it is a shame that many Mag users neglect to replenish shields of other frames tanking those heavy Grineer or Ancients.

 

The skill should also have its cost reduced to 25 Energy due to its otherwise situational effect.  50 Energy is too dire a cost, especially if it means potentially having to sacrifice the next Crush.

 

Another work-around would be to have it as a durational AoE buff/debuff where it effects shield regeneration rates, as the OP has suggested.  Having a durational AoE would justify its current 50 Energy cost.

 

- Bullet Attractor currently hurts the team more than helps.  The suggested use for this skill is to aid the team in taking down tough enemies that like to hide behind cover.  However, the team could also reposition themselves to greater effect at little-to-no cost.  It needs a buff and/or a rework in how it functions.

 

One suggestion is to have this skill debuff the target and cause it to take more damage.  This would make up for the current inability to target enemy weak spots while being effected by Bullet Attractor.  Potentially, this could be exploited to one-shot bosses with Excalibur's Radial Javelin.

 

A second suggestion is to turn this into a debuff which turns all damage done to the target into splash damage that effects all enemies in its AoE.  It works around the problem of Bullet Attractor lowering team DPS, but would make the skill even more situational than it needs to be.

 

It would also be nice if this skill had its cost reduced to 50 Energy, as it is purely a utility skill and needs to be spammed more (not at this current state though).

 

- Crush should be a clinching skill, and it is, but only against lesser enemies. The problem here is that team members usually aren't downed by those opponents (mostly Lokies and the odd lone Excalibur are, but they usually aren't worth saving). Against tougher enemies, this skill has little-to-no effect and this is what kills the fun in Mag for most players. As soon as that casting animation stops, that Machinegunner or that Disruptor will continue to munch on poor Loki/Excalibur almost instantaneously (and at full health to boot).  It needs a buff against greater opponents.

 

What needs to happen is to have Crush bypass all armour and shields. This would also balance Mag's lack of any other offensive skills.  As stated above, this would also make more sense logically.

 

Mag can still be saved.

[Hauteclere]

-text-

 

I've added your opinion and such to a special section since you gave so much information. You will be given a link that leads directly to your post, and a notice above where you're first mentioned so that people can instantly know to look to that part of the post for more of your opinion.

 

Note: I'm slowly starting to notice how much of a train wreck my post looks now. xD I'm gonna see about using colors to break up the insane amount of white text. I want this to be nice enough to look at to read..

 

Another Note: I've changed the screenshot pic of hiryu's comments on crush to a link that goes directly to his post as well. Seems the effort of fixing mag is going to teach me how this fourm works. Heh.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Hauteclere

[Lemonz]

Bumping for the future.

[Hauteclere]

Thanks for that.

 

By the way I tried Sheild Polarize in Defense situations, and....attempted to use it in party situations. I'm finding it infinitely easier to use it for defense, as cryopods don't move. >_> ( Course I guess if I hadn't binded my middle mouse button to melee I'd probably have an easier time with other players...I'll give that a shot.)

 

If you ask me, the lack of...ease might take some part in people not using Shield Polarize for buffing, along with things like Fast Deflection being mistaken for doing the same job. The idea of it being an AOE buff is starting to look even more attractive. 

 

Then again there may be utility in the fact that it requires 'targeting'.  

 

I'm gonna check the range limit on Sheild Polarize while doing defense missions. 

 

Not that I think such a luxury can't just be gained the same way with a radius increase from Mag's alternate helmet and stretch...

 

I will say that I was surprised at the amount of shields it seems to restore, but until I can successfully restore the shields of another player in live combat I won't really be able to ascertain if its as effective as it seems.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Hauteclere

[NuxMatrix]

I started out on a Mag and I spent so much time using it that I accidentally use the words "Mag" and "Warframe" interchangeably. Beyond using Crush for crowd control, I didn't find many of it's abilities useful.

 

Pull needs to knock down enimes on pull. It basicly needs to be identical to the new melee Grineer unit, http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Scorpion'>Scorpion. It's almost always a bad idea to bring enemies close too you, unless they're incapacitated or stunned.

 

Shield Polarize needs a tiny buff. It either needs to last longer, or buff/debuff more. It just doesn't have enough utility to be useful. It doesn't debuff bosses or heavy units enough to warrant using; nor does it it last long enough to warrant using it on a tank. It might be nice to use on yourself as well.

 

I didn't get much use out of Bullet Attractor either. There's just not many situations where you can see around your target, but can't shoot it directly. Directing bullets to the headshot hitboxes might just make it too OP, so I don't really know how to fix it. It doesn't seem to redirect all the bullets in a room to the target, only ones that hit the orb.

 

If Crush's damaged scaled = the target's armor, it would make up for everything else. It already acts as a boss killer for the http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/J3-Golem'>J3-Golem, so why not? Compensate by having it do low damage to character's with low armor, or no damage to un-armored units. Volt's uber is already pretty situational, so why not make Crush something to use on heavy armored units?

Edited June 2, 2013 by NuxMatrix

[Hauteclere]

I started out on a Mag and I spent so much time using it that I accidentally use the words "Mag" and "Warframe" interchangeably. Beyond using Crush for crowd control, I didn't find many of it's abilities useful.

 

Pull needs to knock down enimes on pull. It basicly needs to be identical to the new melee Grineer unit, Scorpion. It's almost always a bad idea to bring enemies close too you, unless they're incapacitated or stunned.

 

Shield Polarize needs a tiny buff. It either needs to last longer, or buff/debuff more. It just doesn't have enough utility to be useful. It doesn't debuff bosses or heavy units enough to warrant using; nor does it it last long enough to warrant using it on a tank. It might be nice to use on yourself as well.

 

I didn't get much use out of Bullet Attractor either. There's just not many situations where you can see around your target, but can't shoot it directly. Directing bullets to the headshot hitboxes might just bake it too OP, so I don't really know how to fix it.

 

If Crush's damaged scaled = the target's armor, it would make up for everything else. It already acts as a boss killer for the J3-Golem, so why not? Compensate by having it do low damage to character's with low armor, or no damage to un-armor units. Volt's uber is already pretty situational, so why not make Crush something to use on heavy armored units?

 

Fair reasoning on Crush. A lot of us agree to the point where it's been stated numerous times. Seeing it even more only makes me happy, because that shows how necessary it is to have Crush ignore armor.

 

Though I do not think the damage should be scaled---because as it stands right now Crush has always been useful for at the very least clearing out the riff-raff so you can personally deal with the more dangerous units. (Unless this is an 'Upward scale' which would be amusing since it'd actually make sense...but still. I think I'd hear some complaining about that. Lol)

 

This is a realization I've finally come to while doing repeated infected defense missions...A lot of times its not the larger units hindering you, but the smaller ones mixed in, who flinch you or get in the way of your gunfire (provided you're not using boltor or kunai, or whatever..) Still I do think that it should ignore the armor of heavy units or even do bonus damage on heavily armored/shielded units if it must not be so extreme.

 

As for the other things...

Pull actually does knock down enemies, this was spoken of in my opening post.  The problem here seems to be, now that I'm starting to understand it better, that it only knocks down non-heavy units or just has a smaller chance of knocking down heavy units. ( Yeah...that has to be right, because I've knocked over heavy grineer with pull before.)

Come to think of it...I think it might actually just be Ancients that I haven't been able to knock over...I'm gonna test this. 

 

But yeah either its all chance based, limited, or something is bugging out with the skill. 

 

Edited June 2, 2013 by Hauteclere

[NuxMatrix]

Thanks! I'm glad people are interested in improving this frame, instead of just abandoning it as soon as you can build a new one. When I first started playing Warframe, I read Mag's abilities and their raw descriptions made me think that it was the most tactical of the three starters, so I whent right for it. I was a bit disappointed when Mag turned out to be a lady in a scuba suit.

 

 

Pull actually does knock down enemies, this was spoken of in my opening post.  The problem here seems to be, now that I'm starting to understand it better, that it only knocks down non-heavy units or just has a smaller chance of knocking down heavy units. ( Yeah...that has to be right, because I've knocked over heavy grineer with pull before.)

Come to think of it...I think it might actually just be Ancients that I haven't been able to knock over...I'm gonna test this. 

 

But yeah either its all chance based, limited, or something is bugging out with the skill. 

 

 

The thing about abilities and ANY frame is: unless they're AOE, you're generally not using them on the light and average units. If it targets a single unit, players usually save it for a heavy unit they can't deal with by just shooting it. Why would I want to pull a single light unit in close, when I can just shoot it from afar?

Pull's utility would make a lot more sense if it could be used to single out a medium/heavy unit and bring it in close for some melee/shotgunning. 

[Hauteclere]

 

The thing about abilities and ANY frame is: unless they're AOE, you're generally not using them on the light and average units. If it targets a single unit, players usually save it for a heavy unit they can't deal with by just shooting it. Why would I want to pull a single light unit in close, when I can just shoot it from afar?

Pull's utility would make a lot more sense if it could be used to single out a medium/heavy unit and bring it in close for some melee/shotgunning. 

 

I just did a random infested run in Jupiter to test it out, and I managed to knock over every heavy unit I pulled. Which of course gave opening for me to blow them up by shooting them in the foot with Hek. This is how I've always used pull with light units, and heavy alike when it came to the grineer---but I remember quite a few instances where I pulled a Disruptor close and to my horror they didn't fall over. Lol

That said I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps it may have just been a case of lag or a bug. I'm going to test it a bit more to make sure. After all I did just fix a couple of network issues I'd been having recently. It'd be great if I can get a second opinion as well, that way I can make sure I'm not just being lucky or something.

 

But yes if it turns out pull always knocked over heavy units from the beginning, and not by chance---that'll be something I'll be happy to check off the list of fixes.  A mistake I'm more than willing to correct---and even further inform others about.