CortezHextus
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Posts posted by CortezHextus
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On 2018-10-10 at 5:11 AM, Loza03 said:
The ability to see the location of Rifted enemies somehow so I know where stragglers are so I can quickly dispose of them
This is a great idea. Its horrible to use your 3 right now, when enemies just randomly end up in or out of the rift and I cannot even tell who, or where, they are so I can target them and clean them up afterwards.
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Lol don't worry friend, I mostly play with friends. But if I ever see you in game I'll be sure to keep you banished the entire time. 😘
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Hello! I like Limbo. I play a lot of Limbo. How much Limbo? Well I wanted to know too...and...whew...A LOT. In fact, of my 924 hours in warframe 47.2% of them are on Limbo. Which is 436 hours. Jesus, you'd think I'd get board. 🤣
I, for the most part, like the new Limbo more than the old Limbo quite a bit, and find him to be a very effective frame by comparison to what he was. If not a bit too good. But Banish really needs some fixing. Compared to Limbo 1.0 this new badboy just doesn't see me use it for much and there is one really specific reason why; imprecision.
Radial Banish was a great way to solve a number of problems with Limbo in my opinion, I was certainly there cheering it on back in those Limbo rework megathreads from back in the day. But man if it isn't imprecise. I am always accidentally putting things into the Rift along side things I actually wanted in there. Most importantly I can't cast it on a group of enemies anywhere near my allies or they'll just get sucked up into it. Its miserable. Or on an ally without dragging all the enemies into the Rift with him.
I'd really like to see the following adjustments made to Limbo's Radial Banish:1. Type/class specific casting
That is it! Long list, I know, But really its that simple. If I cast it on an enemy (based on reticle target) the banish radius should ONLY effect enemies. And if I cast it on Allies it should ONLY effect allies. If I cast it on Tenno; it should ONLY effect Tenno. If I cast it on allied warframes it should ONLY effect allied warframes. These are the four classes I'd like to see mobs broken into for casting purposes so that I'm not accidentally shoving that melee-spinning death machine into the Rift along with the Rescue target. And I certainly don't want to be sending all the enemies around the rescue target into the rift WITH him when I banish him for safe keeping.Thanks for your time and review!
Yours truly, that one guy with too many hours playing Limbo. -
Honestly I tried the build and it worked. That said I could have played literally any other warframe and had the same level of success with it. In fact many warframes would have benefited MORE from it than Limbo does. And that was about all I felt in regards to it.
I became a more or less one trick pony too. Just swinging my melee weapon around while losing most of the advantages I normally derive from my powers. I was bored within twenty minutes of using it. On top of that I was using my 4 just so i could use my 3. And in what world is your ultimate used just to enable the use of a self buff...The thread we have created here is about improving Limbo to make him a more versatile and fun warframe with adaptable tactics and unique abilities. Continuing to argue that Limbo is just totally fine the way he is is a waste of time.
He's not. Lets go back to working on his problems and trying to build a Limbo we can all get excited about.
Getting back on topic:
QuoteOn allied/no target, Place a Rift Rent (Courtesy of Crimson Judgement/Orokin Moon tile-set) that can be attacked by allies to take possession of it (they are the only one who can use it) and that ally can then touch the Rent to travel to/from the rift for the duration of the ability. (Rolling out of the Rift still applies as normal)
I really like this idea. I am however quite nervous about placing Rift Rents on missed casts (no target) as I won't pretend to have perfect accuracy. Additionally casting Rift Rents on Allies rather than just being able to banish them does eliminate the utility of last second rescues or for that matter banishing downed allies so that when they stand up they don't immediately get knocked down again.
I don't want to lose the Idea I just don't know how to take advantage of it.
Since I've been suggesting this all thread I feel a little bad doing it again...but maybe put it as the hold-to-alt for Shift Step? Allowing you to just drop Rents wherever you're aiming or wherever you are?
Again, spitballing. -
I have my Nyx, and don't play her much.
But I always seem to have a Nyx in my party of friends because several of my clan mates play her. I'm always happy to see her. Chaos build is great for most stuff we do. I rarely see anyone build for her 4 but it still gets used on a regular basis.Her 2 seemed pointless. Everything else was grand.
Not sure why ya'll feel she's week because I see her as supremely useful. -
1 hour ago, Clonmac said:
Once you reach levels of 100+ however, you will begin to need to specialize your build for any warframe in order to both kill and stay alive. The enemy scaling at levels beyond 100 is so insane that min/max-ing is absolutely essential. To say that because Limbo needs to do that and therefore he is a weak warframe misses the point that most frames need to do some type of specialized modding at those levels.
At levels below 100, you don't need a specialized build for Limbo at all. You can just pretty much out damage any enemy you come across and not have any problem with survivability at those levels.
I think you missed my point. Everyone uses specialized builds at high levels. Myself included. Limbo's specialized build however is not superior to other war frames' specialized builds utility, survive-ability, killing efficiency nor CC. This makes him comparatively inferior.
Beyond that if the best his powers can do or be used for is "give me a 500% damage buff when using 2-3 powers in combination", then he's a pretty dull frame to play and you might as well pick anything else.
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As much as that is an awesome build (I've been trying to put together a similar alternative to my balanced duration/range build just need some of the mods) ...I have to say that a specialized build takes as much advantage as possible of a weak frame's strengths is not proof that the frame is good but rather that careful engineering is effective.
We can do more for Limbo than that. I don't think anyone here is arguing that Limbo is BAD. Limbo is just not up to par with what other warframes can do.
QuoteLabyrinth is pretty much the same as Cataclysm would be if it had the same Knockdown CC that comes from entering the rift by other means. The only real differences are:
A: That Labyrinth would be a longer CC and less useful if Limbo is already in the Rift, because it doesn't seem like it would stop enemies from attacking, only from moving.
B: That it would potentially require a LOT more VFX and processing power for all the individually rifted enemies.
Yes, it is similar to Cataclysm. However it is a dispersed AOE rather than a localized AOE. Which gives it added utility in limiting enemy movement. One of the other reasons it is a Labyrinth is other enemies could walk into the small cataclysm bubbles and find themselves trapped as well. Creating a minefield of sorts.
A. It is simply a very different ability than Cataclysm which can only be cast once. I'm relatively opposed to the idea of multiple cataclysm casts and generally speaking his bubble is pretty big which means it creates more of an arena than an immobilization. Though it could be use to immobilize (assuming enemies cannot exit cataclysm) So to me it is just one more attempt at adding utility to his kit by creating different approaches to the same thing.
B. That part would be up to the graphics team. It doesn't have to be tiny cata-bubbles, it could be anything else. We shouldn't limit ourselves with that concern since we're not actually implementing anything. All we can do is day dream.
QuoteThe Haven augment should either:
- be applied every time a player enters/exits the rift, perhaps with one caveat: It can only affect each player once per ability cast. This would let it function as a nice healing ability without its crazy limitations.
- Or, alternatively, make it a percentage based heal over time while in the rift, say somewhere from 10% to 20% of the frame's max health per second, scalable with power strength.
+1 for heal over time for Haven Augment.
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I have to say I agree with this. I main Limbo. Suddenly my greatest advantage (being able to run after something while invulnerable, knock it down, and take it out in a secret little room only I know about) was completely useless.
Maybe it seemed like it trivialized the missions. And to be fair it does make Capture missions exceedingly easy for Limbo. But that's not a failure, that's a success. I KNOW how hard it would have been if I wasn't Limbo, so using my powers for the literal express purpose they were built for makes me happy. I feel like a cool space ninja.
Now I just feel impotent.
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Also...I thought of a possible extra power we could slot somewhere. (heck, for that matter a hold-to-alt for Cataclysm) How about a radial power that works like this: (gonna steal my previously used name here)Labyrinth: Limbo opens a flurry of tears in the Rift, knocking down and banishing enemies leaving them trapped in a prison of Rift energy within a radius of 8/10/12/15 Meters inflicting 200/300/400/500 Blast damage and 300 Impact damage upon entering and leaving the Rift Plane. Duration is 15/20/25/30s.
This mixes wth the idea suggested earlier about changing Cataclysm so that enemies could not simply exit Cataclysm at will. Though they can enter. The basic idea here is that it places a bunch of tiny Cataclysm bubbles around individuals within the radius of the power. Sticking those enemies in place, and banishing them. Dealing light damage.
This goes thematically with my proposition that Limbo is about abstracted terrain control.
I might suggest it be the Hold-to-Alt for his 4. So you could either do Cataclysm or Labyrinth.
I realize I have just put a ton of tricks of Limbo’s sleeves but he’s a magician so that seems fine.
Banish/Group banish
Rift Walk/Portal
Shift Step
Cataclysm/LabyrinthIt’d be heck of a lineup. And none of it would be related to raw damage. Which is a pretty cool idea for a frame.
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18 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:
25m, unfortunately, is a very convenient range for a multitude of defense and mobile defense maps, and would let Limbo set up a cataclysm and then spam explosives into it for days with no consequences
Actually I think I just thought of a better way to approach it while maintaining the intended balance. Limbo is tricky because it is surprisingly easy to make him an unstoppable killing machine. Reduce enemy accuracy within the Rift. I don't have a good number for how much. But a relatively moderate amount would be ideal. It should be enough to put the advantage in your hands while not eliminating threat. A simple flat reduction of enemy accuracy would improve Tenno lifespan in the rift and firmly put the advantage in their favor. We could fluff it as any number of reasons; weird physics, strange invisible objects, simply harder to see, whatever.
QuoteYou could just make it a stagger for 1-2 second every 5 seconds? Especially if they were synchronized this would give limbo some nice breathing room to time his actions during the staggering.
I'm very open to this idea as a passive effect of the Rift. I did suggest it once upon a time in another thread but the concern was raised that it throws off the flow of easy headshots. To me I think the two things that are desperately needed in the Rift as a passive mechanic is some fundamental CC and thematic damage reduction. Being there should be better than not being there. So count me as a thumbs up.
QuoteShift Step does the same thing, but if it doesn't become the third ability you have a salient point.
My only concern with that is that I cannot banish multiple targets at range in this case. I HAVE to get close and that makes Limbo much more of a melee frame than he necessarily needs to be. Shift Step has utility for melee, for sure, but it also has utility in other ways. The reason I suggested he does himself not get rifted with Shift Step was 1 part QOL and one part inverse invulnerability. Sometimes instead of putting myself in the rift I put enemies in the rift to keep them away. Shift step would allow me to jump into a group of enemies and give them the finger before running off. But if I want to AOE snipe a group of enemies with a tonkor or whatever else, right now, I need to queue up a bunch of banishes one at a time. (the recast time seems to feature some kind of delay). So to me Hold-to-multi-banish is good even with Shift Step.
QuoteEither Shadow Step or Portal seem to be very good ways to give him interesting tools. Integrating Rift Walk as a part of Banish (Limbo aims at his feet to banish himself maybe?) would also free up another ability slot, although I forget if you were against that or not, it seems to be kind of a polarizing subject. Any thoughts on what another new skill to go with one of those new 3s would be?
I am pretty firmly against ditching his 2 and merging it with 1. I need seemless control of my position in the Rift. That said...Since we're talking about hold-to-alt powers...What if Portal was his Hold-to-Alt for 2? It very much so fits the theme of what his 2 does and is.
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On 4/8/2016 at 4:20 AM, Vitalis_Inamorta said:
@ CortezHextus:
Consensus Items: Agreed, except for energy drain auras. If they penetrate, why shouldn't toxic? Or cold? Etc. They should probably not enter the rift, to be consistent.
Rift Rework Items: I'm kind of down with the deaf enemies, but if it becomes a thing, then all allied frames should get a dampened-out effect like Loki while Invis, otherwise makes no sense.
I don't really see any reason for reduced visibility range, and it wouldn't really help his stealth at all, seeing as the damage from being brought into the rift would at least put them on cautious mode, thus completely countering the 30% range by multiplying the range they see while un-alerted. On full alert, this would potentially let you shoot enemies that were 25m away or so with no retaliation, but it's kind of overpowered if you're using it that way?
The random proc chance fits thematically, but it really wouldn't help Limbo noticeably in most situations. The most notable thing it would do is that radiation procs automatically transfer to ancient/corrupted healers if their aura overlaps the mob that got hit by the proc, so this would make him a noticeable amount better vs infested I guess? Not really sure where I stand on this one. Kind of don't like it from a gameplay stand-point, but a lot of people might.
I think Limbo's energy generation inside the rift should scale with power strength. This would let him be a lot more useful for it, as well as potentially replacing Trinity in some energy generation scenarios (no one would complain about that, methinks, and I'm basically a Trinity main...)
Power Rework Items:
Banish... it's pretty powerful. It knocks enemies down, opening them for ground finishers, and otherwise leaving them unable to retaliate for a couple of seconds. A held-charge type use would pretty much make it do the same as Cataclysm, but in a smaller area, so while interesting, I don't know if it's really a needed thing. Limbo regens energy inside the rift at a rate of 2/second, so it's kind of already more efficient than most 1s, considering he's probably already in the rift.
Whoa, I really like your Shift Step idea for his 3, and it also bridges the gap between Banish and Cataclysm, so that's a bonus. Adding to the potential list :3. Labyrinth seems to be pretty much the same thing as Portal, but it might do random damage or rift exits, which make it kind of unpredictable, and in the rift exit case, hurt it if Limbo was using it to block a door or something. 3x duration could also be really... long? Really really long. I don't see why it needs to be that long.
For Cataclysm, the knockdown is possible, I'll make sure it's a thought in the OP. Enemies not being able to enter or exit though? That's..... probably way overpowered for defense. Especially if you fix it so that nullifiers don't cheat. Oh, yeah, it would also break the Cataclysmic Continuum mod almost completely. I don't see any really good reason it needs to be that way either. Care to share?
Overshield/armor for Limbo in the rift are thematic, but if every way for enemies to enter the rift knocks them down anyways, why does he need this? Kind of seems like a tacked on thing, that wouldn't be very meaningful unless it was strong enough to be kind of power-creepy. Maybe give him something similar to the Health Conversion mod, in that while being in the rift he automatically builds up say 1-2 charges of damage resistance over time, and the top stack dissipates 3 seconds after taking damage? It would protect him from oneshots by enemies that cheated and didn't get knocked down upon entry (rare with Banish, but it does happens some times), but not much else, so a nice bonus to skillful use. TBH any of these options seem kind of un-necessary compared to other changes though.
1) In regards to energy drain being cross planar the way I see it is energy is weird Void Magics and the Rift plane is the space between the Void and the Material plane. Which is why Warframe powers can cross planes. And if Warframe POWERS can cross planes, then so too can things that harm their energies. to me this is a completely separate thing from other physical auras.
2) In case I didn't describe it well I don't intend for enemies to be deafened in the Rift. I mean for enemies in the Rift to be deaf to sounds outside of it. And sounds inside the rift to be silent to those outside of it. Essentially sound would be treated the same way physical interaction is. So to me no obvious audio queues are necessary.
3) In regards to less vision range it wasn't intended to be for stealth. it was intended to make the Rift a more advantageous place for Limbo and allies. 25m is actually not that short in a game like Warframe when you're mostly fighting your way through halls and corridors. My intent was to make it harder for enemies to regularly attack Limbo. Providing better advantages for spending time in the rift and encouraging greedy cataclysms.
My whole idea with random procs, reduced vision range, etc was making the Rift more advantageous. Right now all you get for being in the Rift is passive energy gain and (funny enough) slightly poor-er visibility. Aside from the conditional invincibility, i mean. But fighting in the Rift feels like fighting outside it and to me that is a failure in design.
I'm nervous about power strength improving energy gain...but it could be awesome. So count me on the fence.4) I get what you mean about banish. But to me the problem is i sometimes want to banish a small group of enemies at the same time; but I don't want to throw down a bubble as big as cataclysm. Cataclysm is not a group banish. It is a battlefield alteration. I might be fine banishing 5 enemies. But throwing up a bubble on many maps will get me killed. So to me the added utility is better control over my domain, and who gets to play in it with me <- which is what Limbo is truly about.
5) Yea, I'm with you on Labyrinth I'm just spit-balling. I'm glad you like Shift Step. To me it would be a hugely awesome addition to his kit.
6) I was thinking about cataclysm which was in many senses other people's ideas I just posted here because I liked them. I think you're very right though. Keeping things from entering cataclysm would be very broken, making defense missions trivial. However keeping things INSIDE cataclysm wouldn't be so bad. Things could enter not exit.
My thoughts for this are; Limbo is in many senses about divide and conquer. He is also about terrain manipulation, in an abstract kind of way. I think it would be nice to control enemies a bit more directly and get a little more of a 'shooting fish in a barrel' aspect out of cataclysm.7) The reason I think oversheilds and armor increases for limbo would be good are increased durability. But count me in for a kind of damage resistance buff that falls off during hits. I like it.
Basically my whole thought about Limbo consists of this:
The Rift is too weak as a mechanic. It needs passive buffs that make fighting inside of it advantageous to the party and especially to Limbo who is its master.so in my mind I'm trying to find mechanics that are not too powerful but fundamentally improve the Tenno's ability to win a fight within the Rift. This is ultimately what makes everyone hate working with Limbo. Being in the Rift is zero benefits and all drawbacks in many cases. At the same time as I say buffs, I really don't love the idea of just raw numbers buffs. I want something that feels thematically interesting.
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On 4/5/2016 at 4:28 PM, Vitalis_Inamorta said:
Let's make Limbo the LimBro we always wanted him to be!
I keep visiting Limbo threads because I primarily run Limbo. I've been thinking hard about how to make him better and talking to a lot of people. I love a lot of things in the posts here. I'd like to contribute my Ideas. There seems to be a fair bit of consensus about some things. So I'll list those first.
Consensus Items:
1) The rift should be consistent. Things in the rift cannot effect things outside it. Things outside it cannot effect things in it.
- The exception is Warframe powers. I also believe energy drain aura powers should be cross planar.
- Nullifier bubbles should not allow their occupants to be rifted. This means that nullifiers in cata bubbles shouldn't be shooting me either!
2) Items should be able to be picked up regardless of Rift status.
3) Cataclysm should effect consoles and other interactive objects.
4) Limbo's 3 should probably be removed and replaced with something else.
Rift Rework Items:I think the Rift Mechanic itself is under powered. I'd like to improve upon that a bit. So here are my suggestions for that.
1) Enemies who are in the Rift cannot hear any sounds that originate from outside it. And vise versa.
- Yes: this would mean enemies could see not hear Limbo in the Rift.
- Enemies who are rifted would be unable to alert other enemies or sound Alarms.
2) The Rift is a strange and dangerous place. Enemies in the Rift have their vision range decreased by 30% but remain alert.
3) I'm on the fence about this idea. But perhaps for every 1s the enemy spends in the rift there is a 10% chance of radiation, knockdown or stagger procs.
Power Rework Items:
1) Banish is about where it needs to be.
- However I think there should be a hold-to-charge that when released banishes 2-5 enemies in an area around the banish target.
- Also Banish is a pretty weak ability from a 'murder things' standpoint. I'd like to see it moved into the 15 power per-cast/enemy range.
2) This being a separate button is critical for Limbo's play style. No changes.
3) Replace, make Rift Surge his Passive. I have two suggestions below. The first is my new favorite. I saw someone else talking about a Blink power for Limbo and liked it a lot. If ya'll remember Limbo in his quest died when he 'went too far' while trying to cross the Rift. In my mind he was using the Rift in much the same way everyone else uses Void Travel: FTL.
- Shift Step: Limbo slips across the Rift [some] meters towards his target point. Any enemies at the arrival location are Banished within 1/2/3/4 meters. Cost: 25 Energy. (note this does not Banish Limbo. He only crosses through the Rift. So he stays in whatever state he was in.
Imagine slipping around the battlefield banishing groups of enemies, and slaughtering them while they're downed. Throw up a cataclysm and need to get out of dodge? Teleport away and start firing at what is in it from far off.
- Labyrinth: Limbo creates a gateway to the Rift. Enemies that pass through it are banished for 3x his Banish duration. Each 1x duration they have a 10% chance of taking 800 Rift damage OR exiting the Rift unexpectedly as they stumble through a crack in reality. Shots fired through the gateway are placed in the opposite state. (rifted shots become unrifted. Etc)
I used to like this idea until Shift Step became a thing in my head. But I'm just putting it out there.
4) Cataclysm needs three big changes:
- Enemies cannot leave Cataclysm.
- Enemies cannot enter Cataclysm.
- Enemies that are banished by Cataclysm suffer the same effects as Banish. (knockdown etc.)
5) Rift Surge becomes Limbo's passive. Limbo gets a moderate Over-shield and Armor Buff while in the Rift on top of a damage buff. Effected by power strength.
In my mind this sets Limbo up to be much better than he was while changing very little of his actual basics.
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35 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:
Appreciate the honest response. I won't claim that these are miracle changes that suit everyone's playstyles, but I have to ask how in your opinion they would ruin Limbo's identity?
I understand that his theme is dimensional travel, which translates to complete isolation of any targets he desires. These changes aim to bridge the divide between dimensions, so Limbo and his team can work in tandem in a more fluid process when the Rift is in play.
If you're concerned about losing his trump card, invulnerability vs. enemies on a different plane, don't be because his abilities still allow this powerful trait albeit with a twist to enable weapon use.
Because it essentially takes away from what the fundamental mechanic of Limbo is: Separation. I usually describe it as being "out of phase" as you might be familiar with from Sci-Fi Tropes.
But to new players just encountering me I describe it like this: The rift is like a second room, inside the original one. Anything in the first room cannot effect the other and vise versa.
This is what makes limbo powerful, with creative thinking. Any change that allows an object to effect another object across the Rift fundamentally eliminates his most basic mechanic. Divide and Conquer is Limbo's essential theory. Battlefield control and terrain manipulation are his methods. He needs some CC I think to be better. And Cataclysm should not be able to be willfully entered or exited by enemies effected by it. But allowing players to shoot across it is not for the best.
The last thing we should do is dumb down the idea of Limbo simply because scrubs in PUGs don't know how to work with him. He's not perfect, far from it. But his basic concept is solid. He is an "advanced" warframe who moves away from the idea of "4-to-win" and that's a good thing not a bad thing. -
I love the atypical thinking and inventiveness. But if I could sum up my thoughts on the idea as a change to the rift mechanic it would basically be:
"oh please god no"It fundamentally ruins what Limbo is and how he is used.
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No.
Its pay to be lazy. Which is the best pay-to-play mechanic supporting free-to-play games I can think of. -
To those members suggesting Banish and Rift Walk be merged I recommend against this. Limbo needs to be able to easily move to the rift, it is his 'magicians escape' trick. He needs it as a button. And that is OK.
His 1 should have a hold to multi-banish function. Allowing quick banishes and group banishes. And his 1 should be base 15 per enemy banished. It should be cheap as all getout.
Limbo is a fun frame, and his effectiveness is not something I am doubting. I am doubting his comparative effectiveness. Yes you can improve things by coordinating with your team better and exploiting his advantages. No denying that either. But he's not BETTER than just killing everything very fast. He is not BETTER than stunning things consistently. He is middle grade useful. He can be better than that and he just needs a little CC to help out and a little extra toughness in the rift itself.
A little thoughtful tweaking of his 1 and 4, and a new 3. Simple things can be done to limbo that change him very little but make him very much better. -
I think in reference to a lot of the above arguing back and forth we really are going the wrong way. Limbo is NOT fine the way he is. He's not fine in a team. He's not fine solo. He's "good" but not "fantastic". You can do things with other frames that are comparable to his rift walk in terms of invulnerability while maintaining high damage output or CC.
This is coming from someone who started Warframe shortly after the release of Limbo and has mained him all the way up until current. I love his mechanic, and I play him in such a way that I am very well liked among my clan mates. They all understand how to take advantage of him. And they know when I banish them I do it for good reasons (or because I missed an enemy) and switch up their tactics accordingly.
Limbo needs some CC to keep up with other warframes capabilities though. He just does, and I think that CC should come as a passive part of the Rift as a plane. I do think there are ways to make his powers kit a little better. And all of that is great. Hell; I'll post some of those suggestions.So again the real question I have, since so far no one else has thrown down any ideas is:
How do we make the Rift a disadvantageous place for Enemies an advantageous place for Friends and a very advantageous place for Limbo?
Below are some ideas in regards to reworking his powers.
1) His 1 can be held to banish enemies in a radius around the target. Allowing fast, single target banishes, and group banishes. Energy cost should be reduced significantly to 15 (per enemy banished). Rather than 25 base. This means he can throw banish around all over the place. As he should. It has terrible damage scaling and while in low levels (<25) you can kill enemies with it; its not FOR killing things. Frankly I'd be fine if it didn't even cause damage and only caused a blast proc.
2) Rift Walk is fine as it is.
3) Rift Surge should be replaced with a new ability that I call Labyrinth (playing off the theme). Labyrinth places a wall in front of Limbo (similar to Volt's electric shield) which is effected by Stretch for Width. Any enemies wandering through it are shunted into the Rift for 3x the duration of Banish. Warframes that move through it are simple Banished at normal duration. Shots fired through it either enter or exit the rift depending on the status of the firer. Enemy originated explosive projectiles with travel time (Eg Ogris) are explode upon entering or exiting the rift plane (rift damage). Every cycle (1x duration of banish) the enemy has a 10% chance of stumbling out of the Rift OR taking a bunch of damage ('something' got Bob!)
4) Enemies should not be able to exit Cataclysm. No other changes.
And finally:
Rift surge is conditional to being in the rift, and that's fine, which also means it shouldn't really cost anything to run it. Remove augments associated with rift surge. Turn it into his Passive. Limbo also receives a scaling armor buff and light over shields while in the rift. This makes Limbo tougher and more powerful in the rift than otherwise; making him a true master of the rift.
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6 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:
So the enemies want to be blown to smithereens? Sounds kinda weird
I think he means a self destruct system for the Life Support room.
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18 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:
I don’t like the idea of having to split their forces, but I like the idea of demolition troops.
Perhaps the idea would be: you go into the room and disable the self-destruct by disconnecting its power. The enemy brings in the power carriers from Excavation, and they try to feed the self-destruct while you kill them and feed the LS.
Disabling the other systems like the self-destruct means the system is deteriorating and will force you to find a new venue at some point.
This makes it different from defense, interception, mobile defense, and excavation.
How’s that?
Sounds very interesting.
I think we have created a pretty cool idea here. -
8 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:
I like it, though having the life support sometimes deplete and sometimes not is... odd. I feel like the gauge should change color or something like that to indicate that there's a continuous influx maintaining it.
Would the facility need defending after you activate it?
Makes sense to me. An indicator showing when you have active life support and a notification from Lotus when that active life support ends would be ideal.
The Idea is getting big now but I like the idea of defending it. My initial idea was it was just a passive length of time that life support would be active before the enemy finds a way to shut it off again. But maybe you have to defend both the Life Support room which contains the control console the enemy can lock down and potentially destroy to prevent you from re-activating it. Additionally maybe the enemy would send demolition teams to ventilation shafts/distribution in rooms around the Life Support room proper. Forcing the Tenno to split their forces to prevent the enemy team from cutting off their new supply of air (beginning the countdown again and forcing the team to relocate once more). This keeps the mission from devolving into Defense 2.0.I will say this sounds like terrible fun to me, but it does tread the line between Survival and Mobile Defense. For me that's OK as roaming rooms on an endless exterminate mission eventually loses its charm.
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21 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:
Do you start working on the next Life Support location during the current one, or do you spend lots of time without LS?
In my mind a round would work like this.
You get on site and the Lotus gives you the usual message that they've cut life support. She advises you she suspected something like this might happen and immediately drops a life support capsule near you. This takes your timer from a starting point at around 20% to 100%. Then you get "hang on Tenno. I'm working on options, for now continue the mission."
So you fight for a bit until you hit say 5 minutes. Then your oxygen starts to deplete. The Lotus sends you a message like "I've found an Auxillary life support system the Grineer are using to keep their shock troops going. I've marked it on your map, take it. Use it for yourself."
So, racing against the clock, you fight your way to the room and take it from a fortified team of enemies. Once you have it it buys you say 5-10 minutes and then you have to go get another one. There should be a fail condition as well. Maybe after you arrive, if it takes you too long to take the room it self destructs and you fail to get that life support buff. In cases like this the Lotus has 3 capsules she can send your way to make up the difference but if you keep failing you eventually have to leave.I'm just spitballing so by all means the idea would need some refining. But it seems like a more interesting version of survival centered around exploiting enemy infrastructure rather than straight up murdering them.
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On 8/25/2015 at 5:19 PM, Dualstar said:
Not sure about reducing the drop rate, theres already too much of a perception that Nekros is is a must-have for survivals...
Infact, had an idea;
Remove PLS entirely.
Instead of restoring a set amount of remaining time, using the LS capsule will simply prevent the mission from failing until the next one arrives.
When the next one arrives, players have a certain amount of time to activate it before mission failed.
This will require players to move at some point, will end those boring tunnel camps everyone only ever seems to do, and it removes the dependance on loot drops for the mission to continue, and it kills the noob trap of players just using the capsules as soon as they arrive without realising what it actually does.
I want to take this idea and expand on it. Because it is amazing.
What if instead of just dropping LS capsules the Lotus starts working on hacking schematics for the facility you're in. After an amount of time she identifies the location of secondary life support facilities. This could spawn a tileset behind any available locked door or unexplored area. These could be heavily defended areas, like the sabotage 2.0 reactors and spy vaults. You'd have to break into them as a team to temporarily re-activate life support in an area for a time. Eventually the enemy will manage to lock that system down more permanently and you'll have to go searching for the next one.
LS capsules could be 3 times you're out style drops by the Lotus as a stop gap if you fail to take a secondary life support facility before it is destroyed by the enemy.Just a thought.
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8 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:
Honestly cataclysm kinda-sorta could've worked, if it actually made it safe for the extractors/cryopods. But the fact that it only blocks fire is stupid at best. Why enemies are able to freely pass through it is beyond me. In fact it's so annoying that almost no one wants Limbo to cast cataclysm in order to protect something cause it's basically useless and very annoying for the teammates - can't see clearly though it while you're outside, can't shoot through it from both sides it's just...
Honestly that's a really good thought I hadn't even considered. I've had people suggest enemies being unable to leave cataclysm. But enemies being unable to enter it would actually turn Limbo's ultimate into a very powerful ability. And make it the tiny arena it was always meant to be. Plus it synergises well with Banish (and the implied and much suggested hold-to-group-banish) in that enemies once banished would of course be able to enter. Awesome idea. Though I think Cataclysm is better for high level D as opposed to Snow Globe with a team who knows how to work with it since it has no damage cap.
11 hours ago, Stratego89 said:TL;DR is "don't ever use 'well this stuff is clearly OP so why can't this be too' as an argument, it does nothing but hurt your case."
Normally I'd agree with this sentiment. But this is Warframe. We're OP immortal space ninjas with magical powers. Not to say I don't think balance is all kinds of janked up right now. Infinite scaling etc, endless invisibility and invulnerability are definitely undesirable as a global gameplay concept. But even if we reduce down the duration of invisibility or invulnerability I still think Limbo should be just as capable in this matter. Those frames with invisibility or invulnerability do not have the condition of being removed from the battle entirely applied to them. Its a boon and a bane. I've heard people suggest he have increased energy drain while interacting with physical objects. I think this is a good way to do it.
But I'm not going to go down with the ship on this one. Him carrying datamasses has never been an issue for me. Being unable to banish Capture targets has me miffed though....A dangerous assassin who can't even assassin any more is bugging me something fierce.
11 hours ago, Stratego89 said:Rift surge gives you enough of an advantage in the rift- Limbo doesn't need more. You SLAUGHTER absolutely EVERYTHING. You are a GOD in the rift as long as you don't take too many guys into it with you or not pay attention.
I mean...kinda? Like he does a lot of damage 1v1 in the rift even at high level content. But honestly one mis-step and it is GG. And the caveat that you can't take too many guys into the Rift with you is the exact problem with Limbo right now. We need the Rift to be more advantageous to Limbo AND his team. Otherwise all you can use it for is damage mitigation and frankly Radial Blind and other similar CCs are better for that. Plus this is a major reason people don't see Limbo as a useful team mate, because his TTK is terrible and interferes with other player's TTK.
So basically I'd like to field the question: How do we make the Rift a disadvantageous place for Enemies an advantageous place for Friends and a very advantageous place for Limbo?To me we need to add some level of crowd control to the rift mechanic. We need to make enemies weaker in some way (reduced vision range being my attempt). I don't think we need to buff the Rift all that much for allies, as long as enemies are weakened in a few ways that allies can take advantage of they already get a sweet energy boon. In my mind Rift Surge should have the same duration as Rift Walk to simplify things and should provide Limbo with some defensive buffs conditional to the rift.
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14 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:
I'd love to see that sounds bit. It's not a big change and you could still be seen but it would be somewhat interesting to see how it could be used.
I do not approve of this. Limbo's whole theme is battlefield control- carefully managing it all into the way he wants it to go. I don't want my enemies randomly falling over, staggering, or running away from me unexpectedly. Radiation- MAYBE. Blast/impact procs, no. Damage over time- maybe, but I feel it's unnecessary and illogical. If the rift can tear them apart then why not just send part of them into a rift and instantly murder them instead of transferring them safely over using banish.
Limited vision/engagement I could approve of- but more like reduced by 20-30%. Reduced by 70% is WAY too powerful.
Yes- yes YES. This is Limbo's #1 issue. Anything in cataclysm with you should be able to be interacted with and picked up. There are some slight benefits to not being able to pick up loot/energy/etc in a cataclysm until you shut it off but it's heavily outweighed by the negatives. Rift walking and carrying a datamass makes sense to me frankly- just take it with us- but this is a gameplay balance issue so I believe it should remain the way it is, but cataclysm carrying a datamass or hacking a console would be fine. You'd still be vulnerable- just less so than if you were in the "overworld".
I agree that auras should not reach him in the rift plane. I agree with this- enemies should not be able to use a console that is in a cataclysm unless they are too, and if they can use them while they are banished then that should change too. Warframe powers reaching through doesn't even really make sense to me, but from a gameplay perspective it's important. Maybe that's DE's excuse for auras reaching through too.
I'm going to explain and defend my ideas below. But I am really more interested in getting a discussion going on how we can improve the Rift mechanic, more than anything so I hope my defense serves as some inspiration for other ideas.
1) For my bit I think eliminating cross-planar sound would be awesome. I'd use it the same way I often use Rift Walk and Banish in missions when I solo. To isolate and eliminate enemies. I prefer Limbo over Loki for spy missions because I can whistle my way through most obstacles (as can Loki because he can teleport and be invisible and use silent weapons so this is hardly OP for Limbo). But one thing that really hurts Limbo is the fact that he is visible, and that his powers alert enemies it doesn't kill. Alerted wardens that are banished shouldn't be able to communicate that alarm. So instead of just being invisible like everything else. Why not be silent and clever. I think it suites his theme.
2) I agree with the statement that Limbo is about battlefield control. But what is the point of taking the high ground if it gives you no advantages? Right now the Rift is not advantageous to be inside of. It should, and this is my way to make that happen. When you banish an enemy right now they take a blast proc and some damage. My thought is random CC chance will improve the situation a little. Mind I said 10% per second spend in the rift. That means a large number of enemies would have one or two members being hit every second. Which is about right. But I'd love some alternative ideas.3) I know 70% is a lot, as a first sketch I thought i'd go too far than too little. 20/30% is too little. Most enemies will need to run forward a few steps to see you. And often as not enemies inside a large cataclysm will be able to see you across the whole thing. I like the idea of enemies having trouble engaging you in a large cataclysm bubble. Maybe this idea isn't a good idea, maybe it is. Not sure.
4) That's a consensus around here I've seen.
5) I don't think it's really a balance issue like people think it is. Valkyr can be actually invulnerable. Loki can be indefinitely invisible. All while interacting with datamasses. Why should Limbo be any different when the same nullifiers effect his invulnerability that effects everyone elses?
Garuda Feedback and Discussion
in General Discussion
Posted
Not to be overly cliche but I want to see more blood and self-heal/powering up coming out of her abilities. I like the blood-mage, mistress of murder, vibes I'm getting from her. But I'd love to see a little more focus on the blood element from her frame.
Something big, flashy, and bloody, for her 4 would be swell. Puddles of blood would be awesome. My first thought was a big storm of blades you can direct around, like the conductor of a symphony, through groups of enemies. Which shreds them into pools of blood (these pools might be similar to the Mutalist Moa's pools). These blood pools cause damage to enemies and can be absorbed by allies for health.
Just some stray thoughts. I'm very excited to try out this frame.