Natfrog123
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Posts posted by Natfrog123
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2 minutes ago, Zilchy said:
Wrong. So very very wrong. Did you go to school? What IS a FACT is that I'm sitting at work right now, getting paid to laugh at you so please by all means continue..
Wow you are some kind of ignorant... I will no longer respond to you.
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1 minute ago, Zilchy said:
I'm glad you can finally agree that what a person says is THEIR OPINION. I guess you finally learned something. The rest of your poat is just pointless crap. Have a nice day. Btw nothing to do with bragging rights, just enjoyable content not useless like you seem to think. What because I don't get rewards that i already have? Oh no! It's almost like I enjoy playing the game without feeling like I need a gold star from DE every 5 minutes... what sorcery is this??
You make no sense. Facts are not opinions but opinions CAN be facts.
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Just now, Padre_Akais said:
Most likely, the same place all the best players are "hiding" ...Solo.
You seem to be under the impression that because you don't see that frame in groups, people aren't playing it.
By your logic, Loki, Mag, and Hydroid would be some of the least played frames in the game.
Ash is a truly complete frame now...Players familiar with him don't need groups for anything other than spawn count now.
Yet I see the above mentioned frames all the time? I do not understand your logic.
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33 minutes ago, Zilchy said:
So in your mind it's also a fact where he stated that Ash is useless? Because going by your logic tripletriple stated it which would make it a fact. As for the rest there was a long lengthy post earlier addressing most of these "facts". It's semantics, it depends what you're using him for. He is more effective and efficient in high level missions than he ever used to be. And I'm talking high levels not a 20 min defense or the daily sortie.
Useless content? DE has made it very clear that that content is in no way supported for balance. If you choose to go there you are doing it solely for "bragging" rights. Who cares about high level enemies? But since you brought it up... Octavia... end of story. As far as more "effective and efficent"... WHAT? Are you drinking tonight? I thought you just said something about opinions and here you go saying an opinion. Are opinions allowed in this or not?
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17 minutes ago, Zilchy said:
Because that way waa extremely boring and not involving. And the majority of playera agree with this sentiment hence DE changing him.
So where are all the Ash players hiding? I NEVER see Ash. I saw it for maybe 3 days after the mass giveaway and hasn't been seen since. Where are they? Answer that question. If the mass majority of the players agree with you then why are they not playing on Ash?
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1 minute ago, Zilchy said:
So in your mind it's also a fact where he stated that Ash is useless? Because going by your logic tripletriple stated it which would make it a fact. As for the rest there was a long lengthy post earlier addressing most of these "facts". It's semantics, it depends what you're using him for. He is more effective and efficient in high level missions than he wver used to be. And I'm talking high levels not a 20 min defense or the daily sortie.
Why are you implying I said that? That was not on the list you said was "opinion" at all. Stay on topic. Ash is capable. Ash can use 1 2 and 3 just fine...well 3 sometimes gets bugged but that's more of a bug than an intended effect. This entire thread was all about BS being unusable which was his only group competative skill. Without it he is "useless" as you call it because he is SOOOOOO outclasses in every way. So I ask you what does Ash have? Puny stealth that has to be recast ALL the damn time. Armor stripping which is easily done by other means and frankly not needed in normal gameplay but yet requires a mod slot. Teleport which honestly is the ONLY viable skill Ash has but at the same time requires you to pump so much health and armor you give up 2-3 mod slots just to not get destroyed at the end of the finisher animation. So I ask you again what is unique about Ash? He is in a horrible place since BS is complete time wasting garbage. Sure i can mark a few enemies but what can i do during the clone storm? Can i mark more? NOPE. Can I teleport to another enemy and just use my regular finisher on them? NOPE. Can I thow ninja stars? YES I CAN. I figured it out why didn't I see this before? I can use 1 spam. Praise Jesus I have seen the light!
That last part as complete sarcasm if you didn't get it.
He is not fun. His press 4 and butcher everything in range meant so much diversity in a single skill that excepted so many different combinations of stats. I could go full range but lack mass numbers or I could go full power and just watch things go away. Either had different strengths and weaknesses and unless you modded correctly it was not a spammable skill and when it was spammed you didn't have those "massive damage numbers" you claim were there. Mesa, Inarus, Saryn, ect ect all have skills that put old Ash BS to shame but yet it was OP. How is that your logic?
I agree invulnerable enemies were a bad game mechanic... It needed to be fixed. That is not an excuse for the mess we have now.
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17 minutes ago, Zilchy said:
Well then why is it a problem? If you're as good as you say you are you should be more than capable of using ash in his current form with no problems.
And if you were as good as you say you were then you would have no problems using it if it went back to the way it was.... Why are you even discussing it then? I mean if player skill and not function is your main gripe here? The skill is clunky and unusable UNLESS playing solo and even then on console it get's you killed unless you spec completely into stealth which is going down the cookie cutter road which is complete garbage period.
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1 minute ago, Zilchy said:
I think there's been enough comments in the thread already that have addressed these points, if you can't be bothered reading that's not my problem. If you can't use Ash that's also not my problem. Show me conclusively where these "facts" are written down, until that point this is the opinion of the poster and not stated in some update from DE hence subjective and therefore an opinion.
It is a fact that he does kill less enemies. Needs LoS and others can attack his targets where before enemies were his and his alone no matter which hall they were in.
The maths for using more energy now have already been proven in this thread.
Less intuitive ( instinctive ). I think this speaks for it self. pressing one key is a lot less of a mental exercise.
More annoying ( irritation ) the sheer effort it takes to do now what the skill did before (impossible BTW) requires major muscle spasms and causes sever stress on your hardware (controller/mouse) and your hands.
Less overall DPS. Well i think this is a given. If you have used BS before nerf and use it now you already know that this is a fact.
Which part of this is confusing for you?
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6 minutes ago, Zilchy said:
Well it is, because it's your opinion dummy. Nowhere is it etched in steel as a statement from DE saying "we made Ash worse". Therefore it is subjective and hence an opinion. And it's one we don't share because we know how to do more than press a button in this game and watch Netflix, which is clearly what you do.
1. Kills less enemies than before? Check.
2. Uses more energy than before? Check.
3. Less intuitive than before? Check.
4. More annoying to use? Check.
5. Less overall dps? Check.
Which part of this is not a known factual statement?
These are are factual statements not opinions.
If they are "opinions" as you claim prove your statement in the opposite.
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14 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:
People won't stop unless every frame is easy kill mode. Some players actually appreciate frames that require a modicum of involvement to be effective.
There's many other frames if you think it's too much work to mark enemies for death.
The same can be said on the reverse side. The difference is one is broken on console and the other isn't. Ash used to be something and then it was taken away because of invulnerable enemies. I get removing the invuln enemies but changing the entire skill wasn't needed.
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9 hours ago, DishSoap said:
Okay so let's talk about Ash and why I feel people want to old Bladestorm back. Originally in the era of one trick pony Warframes most Warframes did use one ability, at most two. This was because everything unintentionally pushed you to use one ability if possible. Limited mod slots, limited mod cost, limited energy, and abilities being mods all pushed the player into using the single most cost efficient skill. At this time Ash wasn't in a particularly good spot either, most of the time you wanted to run Shuriken since Bladestorm was a bit unwieldy to use in normal missions, you also needed Smoke Bomb, and finally Bladestorm. However you also then needed to build for Ability Efficiency, Ability Duration, Ability Strength, and Ability Range. So as a Warframe, Ash was somewhat limited to begin with. It also didn't help that nuker Warframes like Saryn and Ember both did Ash's job better. So Ash fell into a niche survival build with Smoke Bomb and Bladestorm.
Now fast forward to today. Ash's Bladestorm is MORE unwieldy and SLOWER to use. This is extremely important to point out since high speed melee combat is currently the way to play. It also cuts out Ash's survivability and steals his invincibility frames away from him. So it's no wonder that people want the original Blade Storm back but, it won't come back because DE is EXTREMELY bullheaded about things. Though I'd rather see Bladestorm reworked into a system similar to Excalibur's Exalted Blade using throwing stars as a base. Giving Ash something unique like allowing him to cling to walls or the ceiling during this mode giving a little bit more of his survivability back to him.
I mained a BS build up until the nerf. I used it everywhere no issues. I also used his other abilities quite often. I'd use shuriken to start my assault teleport in to the mix far faster than everyone else and press my 4. Rinse and repeat while never touching smoke bomb. I could easily kill elites before the fight even started in most cases and never had a problem with elites not dieing.
Now with the new Ash all i seem to do is spam 3 because nothing else is viable. Never do i play with other players while using Ash because he is to slow. Even with Sheev and covert lethality. Every time I play in a group I can't teleport to the enemies and end up getting stuck teleporting to my friendly and getting hurt waiting for the recovery animation to play. It's not fun. Shuriken is just a glorified glaive now... no thanks. I need to maintain a certain power strength... no thanks. If that's not how I want to play then I just simply don't play the class. Which is sad because he was my most used class and now he is an afterthought at best.
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4 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:
um... No? I never personally attacked you or your ability as a player. I said if you are at that point you have reached the level of the game where DE isn't catering to you. They aren't going to make it easy just so people can have it easy. Easy was what the original ash storm was, and that has been rectified. You jumped to conclusions. "Make it work or not" is where you either enter into cheese tactics or find a different strategy to continue. Energy replenishment spam can be one of the cheese methods used to continue on.
No actually I prefer the current Bladestorm over the previous one. I do not think the one we have is a good one though and with all the problems people seem to be stuck on about it Id be of the mindset for DE to just wipe it clean and start that skill over as something entirely different. The original storm was toxic and harmed almost everyone else's experience and lead to people using Ash strictly because he was an easy frame that didnt take skill to use. The new Ash removed that ability and everyone moved on to something else, which has left this lull in people playing Ash outside of those that like the changes because they couldnt stand the slideshow.
I agree having enemies not able to be hit by other players was bad.... Simply fix that and the skill is AMAZING and no one would complain about that. So what was left? The motion sickness of the screen jumping? Current bladestorm only sends out clones and you can still jump in if need be but the only problem is the marks. You can't jump in if everything is already dead and no marks exist so that goes back to the original factor of the system used for his skill to function. The crap marking system.
If we remove this marking system and automate it again with auto target selection like it was before in an AoE area... Hell I'd be ok with a hydroid type area of effect that instantly marks an area and can be charged for more area of effect but single target marking, even with one mark each, is WAY TOO SLOW on console. It simply doesn't work with other players unless you don't mind wasting your time.
Now with the above said and enemies not being "my targets" anymore we need to talk about the speed of the skill in general. 2 clones needs to changed to a similar method like hydroid. The longer you charge it the more clones you summon and this should be base. I'd change the augment to something like summoned clones throw a shurikan at the closest enemy before returning to the shadows.
It would give the skill great kit synergy.
Granted I would much rather get the old bladestorm back and just have to deal with the slow kill speed but I would at least not be wasting time on a mechanic that doesn't work at all.
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6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:
As I said, simply removing the 2nd and 3rd mark would greatly improve BS' use, since the marks are there, players by instinct try to get them all 3 thinking it's a bonus (it is not), the visuals don't help either. Seeing your screen sepia/monochrome tells you "this is not how you normally play, this is something special". That's why most go for the "4, mark like crazy, 4" when having it on is also perfectly viable (if not a bit undesirable due to lower visibility in dark areas as well as energy drain that locks you out of energy you could use for something else).
And the change I suggest for Rising Storm would make the augment both worth using and adress the annoyance of marking large groups of enemies, it's a win-win situation.
Why is that important when it's so strong it kills most targets in one mark anyways? However playing in groups on console the targets are already dead before I can go left to right fine aiming at targets to place marks on them anyways. I def do not bring an Ash to ANY group play.
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On 2018-07-20 at 12:55 PM, RoninJed said:
There are still many frames that are press 4 to win... Take banshee for example. The main reason/excuse why DE changed bladestorm was because it wasn't interactive enough...meanwhile I can press 4 with my banshee and go make a sandwich while I lock down the whole map for defense and interception missions. I'm all in favor of changing his bladestorm back to the way it use to look. He has a ninja theme and all his abilities fit except bladestorm. He's should be more ninja..not multiple man hehe.
If ash doesn't need a rework at all then I wonder why I rarely see anyone using him hehe.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. NO ONE uses Ash. I can press 1 key to win on SOOOOOO many frame and just recently I figured out how to do it with Inaris.
This is absolutely rediculous that Ash has been gimped so badly I just want the old mechanic back. This manual target selection needs to go. I don't even want a cluster marking system I just want it gone completely no exception. If it isn't instant max targets ond active on 1 push of a button just remove the entire skill.... I mean that is pretty much how Ash is played now anyways with not one single person using it.
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On 2018-07-17 at 4:01 PM, Thaylien said:
There is a full community relations team who read through the Forums and the sub-Reddit and Twitter daily. They might not catch everything, but there's a very high chance they'll see it.
Well good for you, you're wrong though. What matters is that DE know how people play their game and have all the statistics, they also have a goal in mind for each of their frames, where they want them to be, how they want to balance them.
While you, and others, want this... you are vastly outweighed by the thousands of others, over 4 years of the game before he was changed, saying they didn't want a pres-4-to-win frame. The same change has happened across multiple other frames, like Saryn, who used to be a nuke frame with Miasma, like Mag, who used to be a nuke frame with Shield Polarise, like Excalibur, who used to be a nuke frame with Radial Javelin... All of them had their style changed so that they did more damage, more reliable effects, but lost that non-scaling nuke function.
DE made the change to Ash because of constant desire from the community to change Bladestorm. You are genuinely never going to gain enough of a following to change their minds or even get close to getting them to actually revert it.
I will direct you to a particular player and content creator: LifeofRio.
This man can take Ash for hours and hours of solo play on the highest difficulty modes in the game. He records his play, he streams it, he proves that he can do what he says he does, unlike hundreds of other players I can name. He is a dedicated end-game player who takes Warframes on multi-hour survival runs for fun. It's his preferred way to play, and his favourite frame is Ash. Go to the link, look him up.
Ash's damage has not been changed, his time-to-kill speed has not dropped, in fact because you can target so many more enemies with his 4 than you could before, and because you can guarantee 2 additional attacks on enemies, which you couldn't before, and because you aren't forced to join in with the slide-show anymore freeing you up to use your other abilities and your weapons at the same time...
Bladestorm is flat out better than before.
I mean, what people fail to understand is that old Bladestorm just had 18 attacks, you couldn't guarantee which enemies you hit beyond the first, and if there were less than 18 available only then would you attack one of them twice, but at random. 1 mark from Ash new Bladestorm is the same as 1 attack from old Bladestorm, so now that you can specifically tag an enemy up to 3 times, you can reliably deal 3x the damage you could previously to each enemy, and you can do it to just one enemy, or dozens and you can do it without being locked in the animation yourself. If there was only 1 enemy in the room with you and you pressed 4, you would be stuck attacking over and over and over until that enemy died. When what usually kills enemies from Bladestorm is not the initial stab, it's the massive Bleed damage you deal after it, the old way just looked ridiculous. 2000 True Damage with a 100% chance of a Bleed means at base you're dealing 8750 Bleed damage due to his passive making bleeds stronger and longer. 10,750 True Damage total will kill any enemy on the star chart, no exceptions. But that was old Bladestorm. Three attacks of that, from new Bladestorm, for a total of about 18 Energy when you're invisible (plus the cost of his 2, so 68 energy at base, so it's still cheaper than base cost of old Bladestorm) means you can kill any enemy up to Kuva Flood level with an un-modded Ash.
Give him Ability Strength, Efficiency and the melee combo counter scaling? And this ability wrecks everything. Literally everything. Old Bladestorm is looking on these numbers and falling down on its knees in worship. Even with just 30% Efficiency new Bladestorm costs only 8.4 energy to attack 1 enemy for the same damage that old Bladestorm did. To attack 18 enemies it's more than old Bladestorm, sure, until you take off the cost for being invisible, which is a grand total of 93 energy including the cast of Smoke Screen. It's cheaper than before just for those 18 hits you would have dealt with old Bladestorm.
Are there improvements that could be made? Sure, like pressing 4 again to join in instead of 3, because the current setup means you can't always use your 3 just in case it makes you join in when you don't want to. The bonus for being invisible when you start tagging enemies could be improved to make it cost a little less per tag, that would be nice.
But this is a far superior ability to what it used to be, especially from a game design point of view; just like Nekros previously needing to stand still and cast 3 every time somebody killed an enemy, and now it's an Aura that he can turn on and leave going, means that he can run around, cast his other abilities, use his weapons and is all-around better for the change. Ash has now had that same buff. He's not tied to only 18 attacks, he's not tied to randomly picking his enemies, he's not forced into long animations, he's able to run around and use his other abilities and his weapons as much as he likes...
The Warframe known as Ash is better with this ability than he ever was with his press-4-to-win strategy.
"I will direct you to a particular player and content creator: LifeofRio."
I watched his videos... you know what he NEVER uses?
Bladestorm..... In the 3 videos I watched on Ash on his channel I never once saw the guy use bladestorm.
He was invis and spamming fatale teleport 90% of the time with the other 10% mele spam.
This proves exactly what the OP said.
Bladestorm is completely unused and needs to be fixed.
I'm using YOUR reference in my dialog here.
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6 hours ago, Natfrog123 said:
I did as well. I'm on X-Box and no Ash Prime.... I already have it but I wanted to get it for a friend.
Got mine... Sucks i can't share it with a friend
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7 hours ago, TiagoAnjo13 said:
I watched Live from TennoCon and until now I did not receive the Ash Prime, and I watched it until the end of Live, it made me angry about the game.
I did as well. I'm on X-Box and no Ash Prime.... I already have it but I wanted to get it for a friend.
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12 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:
Sorry rechecked the results. She was second. Frost and octavia shared the third place. I'd also love to hear how she would've beat 60m range on the overall same damage base.
With 1/4 - 1/3 the range even if she maxed it.
First of all Octavia would have destroyed you. Second it's called building correctly.
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1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:
http://imgur.com/gallery/bDqYOvC
Really now. She even came out third.
Again...Let's say this for the 4th time... Showing up doesn't fulfill the request. Having an actual DPS build would have.
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3 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:
Ember was literally requested and you mentioned her yourself. You said you would've made her glass. For octavia you established that she is a half decent damage frame, which would've fataly suffered from the same frame i did. (Which she in fact did regardless)
Frost, who came out second spamming avalance was literally the only one you didn't mention.
So it doesn't count? Are you f***ing with me right now?
The frame was mentioned but not delivered. Just showing up doesn't fulfill a request... nice try though.
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Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:
Indeed. I came out first spamming shurikens, in a requested level range, with half decent damage frames in the group. Ember was even mentioned by the person who set the quota.
But they weren't half decent damage frames.... We established that but you ignore it. Hense why you are no longer worth the effort.
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3 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:
Paranoid are we? Did you also notice how those buggy inactive turrets that are unique to the kuva fortress consumed a big part of my shurikens? How frost profited from my dbuffs while restricting mine? If i wanted to manipulate the results then i would've choosen another map and other frames.
In what regard exactly?
Damage?
It starts at 500 damage base, pretty casuall for all kind of radial abilities. Especially those that set good status. What includes saryns spores that did nothing by themselfes and embers WoF (400-800 damage, same firerate, 19m max range, status doesn't stack)
Range?
Static 60m. No range mods, no overexted. It can be built for much more strength due to that on the same kinda glass.
LoS?
Nope. Mesa was it? A frame using a gun. You're aware that spamming shurikens is a onehandet action that allows guns right?
Setup? Groups?
It supports whatever and is only restricted by frost imo, who kills status. Did you consider that octavia wouldn't have been able to scale her damage with frosts Cc if she wanted to?
What you consider effective frames have to deal with the same kinda bull ash has to deal with when using his bladestorm. That his first ability defakto outdamages embers old meta in any regard and that he still has something that actually does damage in his kit, that one is unique to him.
I'm done. You proved all you needed to prove with your video. Have a great day.
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10 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:
^^ my claim was that he isn't behind "effective" abilities with his shurikens, what i have prooven. What you've brought up is that the damage of static abilities with no scaling is lacking and you're correct. That's what brings his bladestorm and shurikens armor into the spotlight, which is appearently "useless because it isn't as effective".
What is it now?
"effective"
Those were not "effective" frames. The kill counts do not lie. You had a trash buffer Octavia. A bunker frost. I presume an average at best Ember. Just stop.
Octavia should have had 280% range with as much duration as possible.
Ember should have been using the stealth from Octavia going full glass.
Frost just should not have been at all and replaced with saryn/Korha/nidus/banshee/Mesa/etc.
I mean you did say "effective abilities" after all.
Now please stop this garbage. You are making yourself out to be a fool for defending a single skill that is ok at best.
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1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:
^^ my claim was that he isn't behind "effective" abilities with his shurikens, what i have prooven. What you've brought up is that the damage of static abilities with no scaling is lacking and you're correct. That's what brings his bladestorm and shurikens armor into the spotlight, which is appearently "useless because it isn't as effective".
What is it now?
He is behind with his shuriken and setting up your friends to hold back or run crap setups isn't proving your point. Even with the trash setup the only other one doing ANY damage manages to out damage you. If you ran with my friends you wouldn't have gotten even HALF of those kills. Again that is ok if you are only useing a single skill. Why are you defending this point so much? Is your pride under fire here?
As for using bladestorm as well your damage would have fell off that much more because of time constrants. You keep thinking the trash players you are playing with are the norm.... they are not. They were garbage either by design (which I think is the case) or by default. You asking your friends to help prove a point and to hold back is not uncommon. I could ask my friend to do the same thing for almost ANY skill in the game. If we have an outcome we are trying to show surely I am smart enough to figure out a way to show that outcome in a video even if that isn't the normal way things work.
Now please stop wasting all of our time. You have proven your not a trustworthy source by your own words and game play. Your claim was false and the maths don't lie. Again it's not a bad thing your 1 spam isn't as good as an entire set. Even if the scene was setup for you to prove that point with your friends.
Please go back as Ash Storm's ability was before
in General Discussion
Posted
Except he's not better. Is not fun to play in groups. Dies way too often unless you make him in a single linear way. He MUST have shuriken augment... so you MUST have x amount of power strength. There is ZERO build diversity. Go stealth and do the same old rotation while your hand has a seisure.
Not good at all.