Littlelosttank
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Posts posted by Littlelosttank
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Best I can think of to make the aim worth it and not destroy the AOE part, is the AOE part only triggers effectively on a direct hit. But..... such is not the case at all.
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As single target weapons they now just suck. Low ammo, acc is far from optimal. As a weapon class your not suppost to 'land head shots' its landing shots to hit as many foes as possible. This damage fall off TRASH is a heavy nerf to all of them. Barring some specific builds which honestly likely are going to see to more nerfs if too many use them already!
At most there should be 3 zones to the AOE
Zone 1, minimal range around ground zero.
Zone 2, most of the range is this zone. maybe 20% tops for fall off. This is what the weapon is made for after all.
Zone 3, this is where the fall off happens sharply, and only in a very small portion of the outer ring.
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Happy 7th anniversary, thanks for helping celebrate by completely ruining AOE weapons class. Some actually enjoyed using something other then a sword or rifle.
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Liches it was pure RNG, Not with self damage weapons. As a self damage weapon user its called situational awareness. Learn the weapon you want to use. Does take a little thinking other then jumping into the fray blindly. Self damage weapons are not your basic boring rifles and never should be.
Keep a distance, watch your surroundings and radar, might mean they are not the ideal weapons to be speed running with though. -
34 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:
it never actually did
not reallyClearly it did.... otherwise this entire topic would never had happened. Guess we just use more brain cells or something then I dunnu.
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16 minutes ago, Fellas92 said:
Ooooh you'd be surprised. I usually like to check players statistics on accuracy. Some people have like 30% accuracy on hitscan weapons like rubico. That's like 3/10 shots hit.
Wait really? I don't make it a habit to go over peoples profiles. I know my accuracy is dropping thanks to my heavy use of ignis or tonkor or ogris ect but thats because the game only counts a direct hit. I can still use weapons like my synapse well.
I'd have thought weapons like the rubico would... ya know... need higher accuracy to be effective.-
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20 minutes ago, Lightel03 said:
Maybe just rework Chromas vex armor?
I don`t think we need a mod that is a straight up nerf to every weapon, unless you`re using this one frame. Seriously, who woud benefit from having self damage other than Chroma?
Maybe you could buff spectral scream and make it have self-damage? Or, you could make vex armor a hold type ability, where you hold it to sacrifice health and shields for the buffs.
For me I hardly ever touch Chroma, I like the AOE for its ability to clear entire rooms though as that is whats fun. However with liches I did have to branch into higher level content to remain effective and loved stuff like the Brama, Kuva tonkor and the chaucorate.... thing riftle the flint lock lol. AOE that actually took out high level grinner or corpus.
18 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:Exactly. It felt very rewarding to play a self dmg weapon and dish out dmg while trying to avoid killing yourself. But no brain cells (or sense of failure) allowed in Warframe.
Just took some skill and trigger discipline, learn the weapon. Ya know. THINK. Target charging ya? Fire at the ground behind, or the wall, or better yet bullet jump back to put some distance before firing. AOE weapons are more about clearing hoards with well placed round then spamming rounds everywhere.
I'm not even a shooter expert and easily learned how to manage my Ogris, my kull star, my Brama, Its seriously not hard to figure out.
This 50% nerf is going to just render them... flashy, a 20% buff to the impact damage? The direct impact is pithetic to begin with a 20% buff to that won't off set anything for the nerf.
Gotta love it when a entire group of weapons have their entire purpose nerfed because of a lack of people unable to do basic targeting and trigger discipline. -
25 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:
That's a good point about Chroma. Specially now that people will probably have to go farm more arcanes in eidolons to rank them up to 5 lol. But honestly I'm more concerned about having self damage weapons nerfed hard, half the damage on the AoE component (which is honestly the most important):
"As a result of this overall systemic change, Weapons with Stagger will be getting approximately a 20% buff in Damage, with any weapons with AOE receiving a 50% Radial Damage Falloff from central impact."
I guess everyone that were crying about killing themselves a couple times per mission because they couldn't be a little more careful where they aim can enjoy their halved damage.
50% fall off..... so going from effective AOE to flashy.... great.... granted did take more then 1 brain cell to not blow ones self up I suppose. There goes a chunk of the effectiveness of AOE's entire point.
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19 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:
people asking for a self damage mod or exploiting self damage because of skills like vex armor that requires enemy input should be made more functional so those things arent needed. vex armor, and covenant suffer from warframes poor enemy AI.
Ah ok, I get it now. In that case using ability's like Vex armor should have a passive taunt that just plain forces enemy AI to shoot at the Chroma or such agreed.
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18 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:
exactly. its high time DE starts using forced taunt on skills that require an enemy's input.
I'm not following..... explain?
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I'd rather not need to waste a mod slot to keep my weapons effective at higher level content. Already must have ammo mutators or run carrier which is bad enough.
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17 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:
While I'm gonna miss the blow yourself aspect of it, depending how accuracy the accuracy changes and enemy damage changes workout, the self-stun may very well be just as deadly.
As long as the effectiveness against high level enemy's is not nerfed.... suppose I'll be fine with it then.
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I'd rather keep self damage to keep the damage out put, as a fan of explosive weapons actually able to harm higher level stuff effectively. I'm perfectly fine with needing more then 2 brain cells to use such weapons effectively. Its not hard to learn how to maneuver to avoid blasting your self. Talking as someone where shooters are not his strongest gaming zone.
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22 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:
That's pretty darn close to what I know it as. Same as you, I don't know the actual scripting.. but here's what I have found to be the case..
When an enemy is set to spawn (either when one dies, or de-spawns), they spawn behind the nearest 2nd unobserved doorway outside of approximately 30m-50m from the nearest observed doorway.
When everyone camps in one room with an unobstructed path from 2 doorways back (with the 2nd being unobserved), they will funnel in.
If so much as one person is elsewhere on the map, those spawns are given so many more options of doorways to spawn from, statistically, the stationary party will receive fewer at their location.. The longer these conditions are met, the fewer will make it to the campers. The member moving around the most, gives so many viable options for spawns, that odds are, they're going to steal nearly all of them.
If they coded any bias to spawn nearest the most party members, then it would still result in a hallway hero meta.
Not coding that bias, hands the game over to a near certain chance that they spawn around the guy passing the most doorways.
Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Lone wolfing will always starve the party.. camping will always bore the lone wolf. Lone wolf wins in a cooperative PvE game.
It's either they bore restless party members further, or bore cooperative campers to break up a stagnant meta.Makes sense, to avoid AI from spawning in vision keeping 2 doors (at least 2 'rooms' with a currently closed door) the more one person jumps about however will lead to more rooms having spawns, spreading it out further away from where the AI was being funneled. Seeing as the Lonewolf is the nearest target they gun for him rather then the group in the hold out point.
Resulting in a dead lonewolf. Or a starved party.
Not sure if and when, but if DE coded the AI that each player brings to only spawn around where said player is.
For example... each player spawns 20 additional foes. If player C runs off, only the AI for player C will spawn in the new rooms. While the AI spawned for A and B, only spawn accordingly. This would encourage group play and prevent any from being starved. If lonewolf finds it a bit 'empty' they can always return to the group. -
People are free to correct me on this. However based on what I've seen and experienced tile sets have 'rooms' not always closed off with a door. Every time you enter a new room or corridor this changes the spawns. Instead of going for the primary designated hold out room, the AI is now spawning and gunning for a corridor, or entrance way rather then the room. As a result this then diminishes the spawn rate for the room as now some of the AI resources is now focused for a entire corridor. When a single member of a player group deserts the portion of AI for the deserter is suppost to follow him around. However in WF's current state the deserter kind of drags 70-90% of the spawns to his new room or corridor. Resulting in the rest of the group suddenly getting little activity and the deserter being focused and possibly overwhelmed.
This applies to holding a door way to the primary chamber, when a player opens a door them selves the game then 'thinks' that player is in the new zone. Causing the AI to start to spawn incorrectly and go for the new 'player held' zone.
I don't know the actual coding or scripting this is all just based on my own game play with and with out friends.
To avoid this problem, the deserter simply.... does not ditch the group and the agreed upon hold out point becomes the focus of the AI resulting in the entire group being targeted and not just the deserter. -
20 hours ago, Aldain said:
Technically Murmer farming from thralls is supposed to be that system, but because Lichs give murmers on suici- er I mean "Mercy", people are clinging to that as the optimal (read as: RIGHT AND ONLY) playstyle.
But overall it is just the sad truth that this is on DE for failing to design a system where players WANT to mercy their Lich.
Yeah only DE can fix this, but once the scripted scuicide being a must is removed entirely, people won't want to make their farming harder pointlessly (no 10 murmurs is a pathetic joke for 'incentive' currently)
16 hours ago, Tyreaus said:Murmur farming is most of it, but the murmurs don't give you the order. It decreases the RNG suicide element a lot since it's only guessing the order and not the elements, but you still have to guess the order. And I think Littlelosttank would prefer it eliminate the RNG suicide outright.
I think the worst thing is that, because of the mess this system creates and the tendency of players in these threads to focus on behaviours rather than the system, it's possible DE could look at feedback threads like this and think their system works or, at least, is well-liked. I would hope not—judging by the fact the Lich has voice lines if you glitch it away with Revenant, it does seem you're meant to be able to get them away from you somehow—but, sometimes, you never know...
Also, I feel like it isn't that the system fails to make players want to mercy their Lich, but more that the system still discourages players from doing so. They could make the insta-death a not-insta-death—just make it deal the same damage as its regular command grabs—and the current murmur reward could very well be just fine to balance out the difficulty increase (though they could also slow down that part some, too, so that it only gains levels every handful of attempts instead of every single attempt—that's just a balance thing).
Agreed.
Over all the liches 'could' keep their auto scuicide mechanic but with out a alternative to learn the order its a forced and unavoidable suicide system. Now if say after you get the mods known, then you start to learn the order of said mods for farming the thralls, or the lich just rag dolled you across the room on a fail for the order then it would be better. Granted the first idea won't help for when a lich shows up and you don't yet know the order.
In the end only DE will be able to fix the mess they created, Till then their own system is only going to breed distain and toxic behaver from players towards each other. This thread proving to be a prime example. -
There is a rather large difference between players hating a system, and players hating a character. Right now the lich system does not make the player hate the lich, get rid of the instant death for not knowing a unknowable order garbage after downing said lich, and people will be more welcoming of the whole system. Or have a way for people to learn said order with out committing scripted suicide.
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1 hour ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:
Yes you will, because you'll have killed more Thralls by that time (for those who don't want to die trying)
Though how would that fix the suicide part? Unless your suggesting after you have the 3 mods known, they start telling ya the order they need to be in?
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20 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:
So again. What would you like to see as a challenge to beat the Kuva Lich, aside of good old spy missions grind or something similar?
Well seeing as your looking for information, the most obviuse would be to raid vaults, spy vaults, supply stashes, your collecting information on how to put this lich down for good after all. They are building their own empire as well. Commanding troops.
So that means for missions, spy vaults, capture missions, maybe disruption themed or heck rescues as well. Maybe even a combo of a few types maybe you need to hit several vaults to open the control center for the assigned commander's bunker he's gone into hiding in. You need to capture him to learn some more info.
You jump into the mission your first objective is to locate the data. 1-4 vaults, you learn that the commander of this post is in the command bunker. If you can capture him alive you could learn a signification amount of information to help you learn how to kill the lich, maybe next you then jump into a rescue mission. However the operative your rescuing thanks you but informs you that he/she was able to install a virus to grant you access but it'll only work for so much more time. Could be altered to say, you have a limited window, you'll never reach all 2-3 vaults but you can hit a few of them.
Your lich arrives to stop you in either mission, however as you wail on each other you slowly learn what it may take to bring them down, say you have a correct mod in the right slot but not the rest, the correct one may injure them and hamper their ability to fight you for the rest of the mission. Though attempting to kill them again with the same incorrect mod order will result in your death.
As examples. All in all, just provide ways to learn with out suicide as all I'm asking for this aspect of the lich system. Keep them higher end of levels ect don't nerf them. Just don't go lazy and let RNG decide life and death either. -
14 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:
That's the whole point. The selling point of the U26. You mess up = u ded.
DE tried to bring more challenge. Welp, people here suggesting making some other way to learn correct combination, which all boils down to generic grind like "additional spy missions" etc.
Give them a hint what new, original challenge you want.
A RNG instant kill for something you won't know, and can't know, is not challenging content. A challenge would involve having to do something to learn it as a reward..... dying is not a reward.
Normally a instant kill mechinic is either in play because you went at something not knowing everything you need to or you went in missing a key tool ect when there are missions or nuggets of info somewhere IN GAME to prep. You can't prep at all for the order which happens to be life or death.
Which is where the problem is, a boss fight with a 99% chance of failer reguardless of how well you prepped on your end, reguardless of everything you may know. Is not fun for anyone. Even Dark souls does not pull that kind of trash and its known to be a 'hard' game. But you still have ways to learn and get the gear you need to defeat every boss there.
Using a failer state as the only way to get critical info is... not fun, is not challenging, is not good game design. -
23 minutes ago, S.Dust said:
Not saying it's the best system in the world even if it's a dice roll at least the game is finally actually punishing players for failure.
Ah yes because a roll of the dice with no way but suicide to learn what order you need something is totally good game play and good mechanics. It adds nothing but a punishment for even trying. "Oh but you just respawn anyway get over it you drooling baby!" Ah so a poorly designed mechanic is over come just be gaming another mechanic..... dats good design people.
19 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:I knew it, and many foretold it. People gonna complain about that. And DE gonna nerf Liches to be a mere G3 sidegrade, when you can just take stupidly broken Inaros + whatever meta weapon and go pop him up with no effort.
Oh. You like your Nidus Undying trait? Well here you go, an enemy who does not care about your traits. People have been warned. Multiple streams. Brutal death animations showcase. Patchnote.
The Liches don't need nerfing, keep them as strong as they are for all I care, but a instant kill for something you have no way of learning ever (short of.... maybe gleeming the game files... if that's even held client side?) what the order is besides suicide is terrible design. Have as a stun or maybe as a bonus to a lich spy mission to learn the order and then that part will be fine.
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21 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:
And really... skill in Warframe? Nothing in the game requires skill. Why is it a surprise the Lich system doesn't require skill either?
Its a death because RNG said so, that is one of the main issues. If death is going to be involved people want to be able to fight it, but to get back your rewards they stole you gotta try to kill them. As it stands unless RNG favors ya your likely going to take around 3 attempts, 2 instant deaths cause lol RNG says so and the third likely being the kill.
On top of the time, and RNG you already gotta jump though, the instant kill is just a insult and only a small percent will some how strangely enjoy.... being killed for not guessing a order correctly with no way to actually knowing that order or a way to find out said order besides effectively committing suicide just to find out part of the order. -
17 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:
The only insta kill you if you don't have the correct mods in the correct order and when you try to finish them off with your Parazon.
When I have my Lich spawn on me, and I don't have interest in dealing with it, I just smack the Lich in the face and run from it. If you are 2 rooms away from it, the Lich won't follow you anymore.
The insta kill only happens when you want it to happen, if we want to put it like that. So yes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.Some would argue your gaming the mechanics there, if your doing that in groups your taking away other players chances of seeing their lich. As well to finish off your own lich you still have to hope RNG favors ya for the 5 time or its a instant kill. There's no skill, no challange, it just takes longer for the next attempt, and the next, and the next.... for no additional reward beyond what they stole from ya already.
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2 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:
And so far they do a better job than Stalker, Zanuka and the G3 all at once.
So putting in a instant kill mechanic to make them instant and scripted, kill you.... is a good thing? Its definitely a mechanic to encourage players to not bother, or game as much as possible.
Players don't enjoy being forced into a cut scene that kills them with zero alternative by design... short of RNG HEAVILY favoring you. End of story. Bad game design there.
how is the nerf to all explosives with no self damage fair?
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Bramma just got easier to use which works well for those who can't rub 2 brain cells together while most other AOE weapons now just struggle more if they struggled before. If you want to be effective with AOE you must now use Bramma or Kuva tonqor ect. Others like the staticor not only don't hit as hard but also have stupid stagger range.
Used to like using the Kullstar for example, however it..... really sucks now unless your doing level 20 or such content.