Aetrion
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Posts posted by Aetrion
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Bounce isn't actually useful ever since you can bullet jump and glide though. I get that it's fun but it doesn't make sense to lock down an entire ability to some legacy toy that nobody actually uses in earnest.
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Any suggestion that removes Vortex would turn this from my favorite frame into one I never use, so no thanks. Vortex is the superior CC for builds that run weapons with high pierce or AoE, like Vortex Opticor, and while I'm perfectly fine with changing it up a bit so it isn't so similar to Bastille, removing it just because some people don't use it would be stupid. I wouldn't ask for them to remove Bastille either just because I don't use that, because obviously other people do.
What should be changed is Tesla and Minelayer which cannot really be relied on to make any build work.
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Vauban is my favorite frame despite it's current lackluster state and I find it annoying when people make "reworks" that are basically just a completely different frame. So, sorry, but it's threads like this that aren't helpful. This simply isn't a discussion about the problems with the frame and how they can be fixed, it's just using the broken state of something as a vehicle for something completely different. I have nothing against your ideas, they just shouldn't be put forth as a replacement to a Warframe that has distinct and identifiable problems that can be fixed without changing everything about it.
There is simply a rule about all abilities in Warframe: In order for an ability to be useful it needs to either increase the speed at which you can kill enemies, or extend the time you can survive against them. Every single ability has to pass this test to be useful. The issue with Tesla and Minelayer is that they just flat out don't pass this test. They don't deal enough damage to be faster than just shooting the enemies when you consider the time it takes to plant the traps and wait for enemies to walk into them, and their defensive power is not only low, but also totally irrelevant on this frame since both Bastille and Vortex have huge defensive power. The only thing Bastille and Vortex are bad at defending against is enemies attacking you at long range, and neither Tesla nor Minelayer provides an answer to that.
So can those abilities be improved to pass the test without changing them completely?
The Bastille/Vortex thing is also not quite as cut and dry as people make it out to be where they are just redundant, because there are genuinely builds where Vortex is better. Like if you're using a weapon with a lot of pierce or splash gathering a lot of enemies into a tiny ball suddenly becomes a lot more useful than just having them float around all over the place, so you end up using Vortex instead of Bastille. I think these could be a little further distinguished in their deployment method, but generally they do both have a use, just rarely on the same build.
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There have been tons of threads on it.
Tesla: Make it briefly hold/stun enemies it hits. Maybe add the 50% Armor reduction to Tesla, and make it permanent, so funneling enemies through a Tesla Trap genuinely makes them easier to kill. Damage from abilities scaling poorly and always either being a one shot kill or not even worth mentioning is a general problem in Warframe, so that's not something that can be adressed in a Vauban rework, it has to be a game wide initiative to make ability damage more reasonable across the board.
Minelayer: If I had free reign to design a mine that was actually useful for this slot it would be a small bubble/pillar of electricity that absorbs fire akin to a snowglobe (but has a life span instead of a hit bar), and when an enemy enters this area it collapses in on them, crushing them for a percentage of the damage it absorbed (including damage piled on it by players). That way you'd have a very powerful mine, combined with a good defense against ranged enemies which Vauban lacks, as well as a strong synergistic ability that your other team members can work off by either hiding inside or firing on it to boost its collapse damage. You wouldn't need any other mines, and jump pads are also really not a great use of energy now that we have bullet jumps.
Bastille: Generally agreed upon to be a rock solid ability that needs no changes, maybe remove the enemy limit because it seems unnecessary given that this has a discrete area instead of practically shutting down the whole level like some other frames.
Vortex: Make it move forward in the direction you cast it in at a walking pace instead of just falling on the ground, if it hits a wall it sticks there, augment to make it rebound. It immediately changes from a redundant area denial tool into a powerful long range attack that you can use to breach heavy enemy formations, bombard locations in open world play, clear hallways etc.
You don't need to change the entire frame into something completely different to make it a great warframe. The only ability I think needs to be scrapped and replaced with something different is Minelayer because that's just a stupid ability to begin with that was only added precisely because during the first rework nobody could agree on what it should be so they just made it a grab bag of ideas except none of it is useful. Tesla is already a kind of mine, we don't need a bunch of other mines as well, and jump pads are totally worthless anyways ever since bullet jumps and glides are a thing. What Vauban really lacks is a useful ability create a defense against ranged enemies, so that's why I'd create the crush-bubble mine that is a combination of a shield and a mine.
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Replacing a warframe with a completely different warframe isn't a rework.
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These changes really are incredibly disappointing.
Tesla is simply too weak to be useful.
Minelayer is basically a collection of practical jokes, none of which have a serious battlefield application.
Bastille is pretty good but outclassed by other frames.
Vortex is also very strong, but too similar to Bastille.
I wish they had made some real changes instead of these weaksauce ones that don't fix any of the real problems.
The frame has no meaningful defense against ranged attacks, it's all just traps and CCs with a fairly short range, so it's lackluster in the plains where you can't use doors and corners to force enemies into the appropriate range for that sort of thing.
It also just doesn't come close to Hydroid or Limbo in terms of raw CC power.
I think Tesla needs to just straight up put enemies on a leash or stun them more often or something to be good.
Minelayer should be some kind of long range defense ability, it has no value in its current state.
Bastille is good.
Vortex should IMO slowly move in the direction you fired it in, so that it has some long range capabilities given enough time to travel. That would set it apart from Bastille more.
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Yea, Vauban definitely deserves some love. Having a way to generate energy would be cool, but the general theme of Vauban is traps/fortifications, so I'd assume they want to stick to that in any reworks.
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On 2018-07-24 at 12:06 AM, Williamwaitunnaing said:
I kind of like them. they look cool
That's why I said I want to be able to turn them off and not that I want them removed.
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I wish I could turn off the golden turds in Frost Prime's ice wave.
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I think Minelayer should go away. It's one of those "theoretically useful" abilities that are just a grab bag of crap that is never really worth the time to set up.
I would change Vauban so that Tesla stays, but has more range, shocks more often, and scales well enough to not be totally useless past baby levels. I'd change Minelayer to an ability that creates large pillars of energy that absorb incoming fire like a snow globe, but instead of having HP instead they collapse when an enemy enters them, so you still effectively have a mine, but it's also a defensive structure against ranged fire - keeping wit the fortress theme. Bastille doesn't have to be changed much, I'd just remove the enemy limit, because quite frankly, with Hydroid and Limbo out there it's just not like a CC limit is necessary to keep this balanced. I'd change Vortex to be the same as right now, but instead of being a grenade you'd simply release it in your hands and it would slowly travel forward in a straight line, sucking up everything in its path until it hits a wall, and that's where it sticks. If it doesn't hit a wall it just keeps going.
That would give you a frame that has a useful area denial tool, can place some defenses from ranged fire but has to keep melee attackers out of them or they get destroyed, still has a very strong CC, and with the creeping Vortex also has a very powerful long range attack for entrenched fights where the slow speed of the Vortex doesn't make it impractical.
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Yea, well, Zenurik used to be good but boring. Now it's good but annoying. Be careful what you wish for.
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If Tesla stunned enemies for 3 seconds with every zap it would be an insanely good ability. It'd still be redundant as hell on a frame that already has a bunch of other strong CCs though.
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Tesla would be a great ability if its damage scaled high enough to be useful past baby levels. Damage based abilities are always hinky in Warframe, but this one doesn't even do anything else.
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21 hours ago, Kaiath64 said:
I prefer vortex over bastille.
I actually agree there, Vortex + Opticor = kill a whole room in one shot.
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The mines really are a joke. Mines are useful in games where resources are scarce and going for strategies that minimize risk to yourself even if they take a long time or are unlikely to pay off makes sense, but in a game where you run and gun and can take down most enemies in seconds there is just no real point.
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This seems like a whole new frame, not like a rebalance.
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Guess I'm going to repost my Vauban ideas in here so this thread can serve as a collection of all the various rework ideas people have, like a community brainstorm session the designers might draw some inspiration from.
Tesla Turret
Basically Tesla, but with longer range, and damage that scales off your primary weapon so it isn't useless.
Refuge
A combination of mine and defensive structure. It creates a column of energy that blocks enemy fire, and players can move through freely, however, when an opponent enters the column it surges and collapses, dealing heavy damage to them. Basically a miniature snow globe except instead of having limited health it explodes if an enemy walks inside. Maybe the damage its surge does would increase with the amount of enemy fire it has absorbed. This would help with Vaubans lackluster defenses and drive home the idea that he's about fortress building.
Bastille
Bastille. Maybe remove the enemy limit so it's on par with other warframes.
Vortex
Instead of throwing the Vortex Vauban releases it in front of himself and it slowly moves in the direction you aimed, sucking up badies as it goes. That would stop it from being too similar to Bastille as a stationary CC effect, and instead turn it into a powerful offensive tool with long range capabilities.
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That almost sounds like a whole new frame, but I do like the idea of a juggernaut transformation.
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I've seen a lot of posts on Vauban reworks, and I wanted to put my own thoughts down, since the last time I posted about Vauban, which is my favorite Warframe, was a long time ago.
Here is how I would like to rework Vauban's abilities:
Tesla Turret
Basically Tesla, but with longer range, and damage that scales off your primary weapon so it isn't useless.
Refuge
A combination of mine and defensive structure. It creates a column of energy that blocks enemy fire, and players can move through freely, however, when an opponent enters the column it surges and collapses, dealing heavy damage to them. Basically a miniature snow globe except instead of having limited health it explodes if an enemy walks inside. Maybe the damage its surge does would increase with the amount of enemy fire it has absorbed. This would help with Vaubans lackluster defenses and drive home the idea that he's about fortress building.
Bastille
Bastille. Maybe remove the enemy limit so it's on par with other warframes.
Vortex
Instead of throwing the Vortex Vauban releases it in front of himself and it slowly moves in the direction you aimed, sucking up badies as it goes. That would stop it from being too similar to Bastille as a stationary CC effect, and instead turn it into a powerful offensive tool with long range capabilities.
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I like this idea, because I've posted an artillery themed warframe myself before
I really hope they eventually add something like this. Would be by far my favorite kind of frame to play, just unleashing heavy cannons on enemies.
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16 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:
Overriding the energy system isn't a good thing.
I fully agree with you, but the fact that people have the most fun when they get to ignore it shows that it's a bad system.
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When I leave Cetus and head into the plains I find myself in a completely empty version of the plains with no enemies or interactables of any kind, and am still in exploration mode, like I was walking around the town, no ability to shoot weapons or use abilities.
I have no real repro steps, I'm just going through the doors and that's the result I get.
I have heard from one other person who got the same issue on the discord, they said switching to solo mode resolved the issue for them.
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35 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:
Just more reason to not use any other ability and use your weapon instead. Changing the system would completely break combat and make Warframe an extremely boring game while you wait for your "good" power to come off cooldown.
I specifically wrote in my post that cooldowns aren't the answer for warframe. You slew that strawman mightily though.
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I have seen it, and it doesn't look fun at all. It looks like literally having to jump through hoops to get to use your abilities.
Is vauban ever getting a proper rework?
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Yea, charged abilities are awkward and trip up the flow of the game.