Arkvold
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Posts posted by Arkvold
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6 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:
ANd this differs from Iron Skin how? Take away mesmer skin and revenant is actually a really squishy frame that's energy intensive for all the ability juggling to maximize vs Rhino's 'ok my iron skin is now. I still have a little bit of tank to survive til I get enough energy to recast.' I don't see mesmer skin's ease of use as inherently a bad thing. Revenant right now is a frame that DEMANDS a lot of ability juggling to get the most use out of so why not throw him a bone by giving him some survivability? Then again I'm an oberon player that is still bitter as hell over how 'oh you want to use this ability? to get the most out of it use that ability which adds an effective cost increase if you want to get the most out of a thing. no that's not ability dependancy you silly goon. That's synergy.' You will never convince me that making Mesmer Skin harder to use or dependant on reave to regain any charges is a good idea. We will simply have to agree to disagree on the point I am afraid.
Iron Skin lets you cast one and gain upwards of tens of thousands of effective HP. Remember how old-school Nezha's Warding Halo used to invalidate the rest of his kit, since Firewalker was a channel that took away energy that could be used to refresh Halo, and Blazing Chakram's healing was useless because Nezha never took damage unless Halo dropped, in which case he died immediately? As a result, he only used Divine Spears and Warding Halo.
Same thing here. Mesmer Skin is such a powerful defense that it's promoting play that revolves around using it and Danse Macabre, and eschewing Enthrall and Reave entirely because thralls don't do anything you can't do better yourself.
Only Rhino should have Iron Skin levels of damage absorption. Nezha got bumped down to 90% on Halo, but in return got healing and sustain from Blazing Chakram to make up the difference. I see Revenant the same way - there should be gaps in Mesmer Skin's defenses, that will get him worn down, hurt or killed if not accounted for, and that you can use Reave to make up for or avoid. I see it as a healthy change that will still leave Revenant extremely tanky, but ensure he can't just use Mesmer Skin and Danse Macabre to be brain-dead.
With the changes I proposed to Reave, Reave will be much more attractive on its own merits, as well. It promotes natural synergy between Reave, Enthrall, and Mesmer Skin - Mesmer skin stuns enemies and makes them targets for Enthrall, Enthrall makes them into health, shield, and energy batteries, Reave harvests those and gives charges back to Mesmer Skin, letting it continue the cycle. Danse Macabre, then, becomes your "oh s---" button for situations where everything around you, thrall or otherwise, needs to die.
The problem with Mesmer Skin's survivability is the way it scales. While it's up and has charges, you don't take damage no matter how hard you're hit, unless it's from the few attacks that can bypass Mesmer Skin's effect. Mesmer Skin says "the next X hits don't affect you" - no matter how powerful they are, and furthermore it CCs those who try, to ensure they can't rapidly deplete its charges via a high fire rate. If you can keep that kind of durability up with no gaps and no downtime, there's no point to Reave or Danse Macabre providing any sort of healing, because you're never going to get hurt. You're going to out-tank Rhino and that's inexcusable. Being a busy frame is no justification for having that sort of tanking ability. Keep in mind - Rhino cannot recast Iron Skin without an augment. Inaros can't recast Scarab Swarm without eating into his own health. Nezha can't recast Warding Halo at all. Chroma cannot recast Vex Armor or Elemental Ward. Revenant is one of the few frames with a primary tanking power that can recast it at will with no penalty.
Revenant's hardly squishy - it's not hard at all to get him over 900 shields, 700 health and 200 armor, which isn't terrifyingly strong protection, but it's competent, even above-average, considering his powers. With Mesmer Skin, that kind of defense lasts a while, and even with these changes, Mesmer Skin will be quite powerful. You just need to keep an eye on it and either Reave victims, or find cover to drop and recast it when it is in danger of breaking, instead of being able to stand out in the open and pop it back to full instantly and at no risk when it's down a couple charges. Mesmer Skin will still function just fine without Reave, so long as you remember to seek safety when you want to refill it so that you don't get caught with your pants down.
6 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:I actually like where they are kinda going with Reave giving allies a mesmer skin charge, thereby making it have use applications even when mesmer skin is up. I'd frankly want to go a step further and have it act to scoop health/shields up out of enemies and dump that onto any ally units caught in the same cast of mesmer skin since there yo ugo, you're able to be a team player while doing a mass enemy stagger.
Given how energy hungry Revenant is, giving reave a way to schoop up energy from thralls living or dead would be more than enough of an incentive to use it.
I love the fact that you can share Mesmer Skin with allies via Reave. Currently, it's the only reason why I even use Reave at all. The idea of dumping health and shields that he can't take for himself onto nearby allies would be great.
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8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:
No. Going 'oh this ability is too good let's make it depend on another ability' is literally forcing more busy work on a frame you outright stated has too much going n. I literally will never support this as a notion. Find another effect for Reave, because taking away recastability for the sake of some bolted on 'please use thi ability nobody actually wants to use' is... No.
The goal wasn't really to preserve Reave's functionality, but more to put a limit on just how quickly you can regain Mesmer Skin's charges. Right now, so long as you've got the energy, you do not die to anything except burn patches or nullifiers. Charges are not eaten fast enough by most enemies to allow Revenant to be worn down until he's flat-broke on energy, and if Reave gets changed to allow energy sustain, Mesmer Skin falling off should never happen.
Reave's usefulness will increase when Mesmer Skin can actually fail to protect you and you'll need Reave to refill lost health and shields. Moreover, giving Reave energy sustain and better usability will make its usage more desirable, ensuring that players utilize more of the kit. I honestly feel that Mesmer Skin, as it stands, is way too potent a defensive ability, and needs to be given a window of vulnerability - one an intelligent player can avoid or work through, and one that keeps it from being a braindead invulnerability button, akin to what Iron Skin and Hysteria are for most of the game. This is coming from someone for whom Rhino is among their top-3 played Warframes, if you're thinking of accusing me of being biased against him.
I realized that losing recastability would be opposed. This is why I had the alternate suggestion of preserving Reave's recastability, but force it to be dropped and then recasted, with significant movement-locking animations attached to both. This would force Revenant to seek the either hard cover or the shelter of his thrall horde or allies to replenish his Mesmer Skin, and make Reave's ability to restore charges without being vulnerable more attractive of an option.
8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:I like this, and moreover i like that you specify that only the guy who's mesmer skin got hit sees the target mark to cut down on clutter everyone else has to deal with.
Yeah - there's enough visual clutter without stunned enemies lighting up for everyone. Only Revenant needs to be made aware of the stuns, since they're priority targets for Enthrall. For everyone else, they're just a happy "oh good, it's not shooting me for a few seconds" bonus.
8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:In theory great. In practice I'm not sure if that is doable or not depending on if the game tracks who the goop pile came from, which I don't think it does.
I know it tracks the alliance of damage patches based on the alliance of the owner; you can check this by simply mind-controlling a napalm or hyekka master or mutalist moa with Nyx and then standing in the damage patch. It won't hurt you. So there's got to be some tracking there. If it's not possible, then I'm okay with it - it's a minor point and would make damage patches a noteworthy chink in Mesmer Skin's formidable defenses.
8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:Pretty sure they said they were going to tone the fog down as of Prime Time.
Thank Christ. Can't tell you how many Crawlers have snuck up on me because of it. I missed Prime Time and the Devstream due to family obligations and haven't really taken the time to check the recap or rewatch it, so apologies if I wind up repeating something that's already going to be done.
8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:add in the fact there is no steerability and goes where the warframe is pointed rather than where the camera is pointed, leading to further sterribility issues. Plus for what it does even at the reduced cost it feels like it doesn't do enough to justify existing.
Actually, the latest changes made Reave track the direction of the camera on startup, which was a huge improvement. It's still not steerable though.
Steerability or a more quick-and-punchy usage profile akin to Rhino Charge (still the gold standard of charge abilities, IMO) would go a long way to making Reave less infuriating to use.
8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:Beware making it TOO busy, but I agree giving some sort of feedback that's easy to see would make it feel more satisfying to use. Also adding a mass enemy stagger would be outstanding since suddenly 'oh hey this thing has a use other than us throwing every little interaction we can with his other abilities without actually giving it somethign that is its own because we're afraid it will be too good then.'
In my mental image of them, all the effects that Reave produces should be limited to the entities touched, and last for no more than one second. Just long enough that you can spin your camera around to look behind you and catch the aftermath of all the things you passed through - which would be immensely satisfying. It would also allow allies to see that Revenant is doing something when he turns translucent and slips through a pack of enemies. In my playing of Revenant, a few people accused me of just running around and AFKing unless I used Danse Macabre, since two of Rev's abilities don't deal direct damage and Reave has no immediately-noticeable effect on enemies it passes through.
8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:Holy Christ you're on fire here. This is amazing as it gives Revenant much needed sustain.
I figure it would allow you to control how a thrall's death is used. Want death effects? Shoot them. Need energy? Reave them to death. Need boom-boom? Danse Macabre.
8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:Suggest also having a ramping cost much like Ember so that it starts off at the original value, but ovr a period ramps up to current cost. This invites people to use while making it problematic to just AFK spin.
Not sure it needs the ramping cost. I wouldn't be opposed to this change if it was made, but if Reave gains energy sustain by eating death effects, allowing people to short-spin it might make it overpowered again.
8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:Frankly, I would also suggest that while Revenant cannot make more than seven thralls, the actual thrall cap would go up with power strength or duration so that thralls can make more thralls. Unlike nekros we don't exactly want these guys around. They're distraction, meat shield, and then die to give you damage turrets. Your idea of differing all damage til the enthrall period ends as well as putting a refresh on all thralls whenever thrall is re-cast would probably shore up the major problems and the enthrall state doing finisher damage over time takes care of the messy fact these are enemies and we want them to die.
IMO, The Ideal Thrall stays around for its full duration, enthralls as many other enemies as it possibly can, then is either culled for damage, health or energy or at least has the decency to walk off somewhere and die.
I figure allowing you to extend the duration of Enthrall for all your thralls when you create a new one, coupled with the ramping true damage would ensure that they do that last part, while still giving you time to cull them for bonuses should you want or need to. This would also promote smart enthralling practices - do you want to enthrall the tough guy? Sure, he might enthrall a lot of other dudes for you, might even get some genuine kills, but you're going to need to refresh Enthrall a couple times, directly cull him, or shoot him to ensure that he dies before Enthrall runs out, otherwise he's going to become a problem again. Enthralling the weak ones ensures they'll die before Enthrall runs out, but they might die really early due to their fragility and as a result might not accomplish much. Still, those are death effects and you can Reave those! Om nom nom SOULS.
I'm not so certain about expanding the thrall cap. Seven feels pretty okay to me, and you don't want to allow too many because of Old School Nekros Syndrome, where the spawn caps are occupied by tons and tons of Shadows of enemies that aren't being allowed to die. Ideally, Revenant wants to cull 'em almost as fast as he makes 'em, but there's always going to be someone who's way too attached to their minions, and I really don't want them to be able to blot a map in blue dots like old-school Nekros could.
8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:For me a problem just as big is that the death state pillars/projectiles do laughable damage. It likely would help if the projectiles do damage corresponding to what the enemy was (corpus enemies deal magnetic, grineer do corrosive, infested deal gas, sentients deal finisher damage.) Not a perfect solution, so couple that with the damage ramping with enemy level? Like... 'enthrall damage value = (Enemy Level/4)*(Enthrall base damage + Enemy Health value + Enemy armor value) Exact value to be determined, but the inclusion of the enemy's armor value is important since if you enthrall a nox or a bombard that should count for more than if you enthrall a butcher or crewman.
I like the idea of the death effects dealing damage based on the victim's level and Enthrall's power strength. Not so sure about it scaling with effective health, since some enemies have low effective health, but a lot of battlefield impact and are less-common spawns - mutalist ospreys and moas, for instance, have barely more effective health than the chargers or runners in practice, but have a lot more battlefield presence.
The idea of the death effects changing damage type corresponding to the enemy type is nice, but let's just make it simpler and re-use a mechanic from elsewhere in Revenant's kit; make their damage type adapt to the enemy being hit, just like Danse Macabre does. It accomplishes a similar effect as to what you suggest, it re-uses an existing bit of code, and best of all, it adds a bit more of that damage-adaptive Sentient flavor to Revenant's kit.
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So I've been using Revenant the past couple days extensively to try and get a feel for him and his abilities. I've been pleasantly surprised with most of him, but the fact that he's reliant on creating packs of converted enemies can make him difficult to use effectively.
REVENANT'S STRENGTHS
- Enemies Enthralling Enemies: If you pick a good Enthrall victim, one good enthrall in the middle of a pack of dudes can convert the entire pack at once, turning a dangerous group of enemies into a combat non-issue that you can then exploit for free healing with Reave and easily slaughter with Danse Macabre.
- Mesmer Skin: This one power does huge things for Revenant's survivability, interrupting attacks and stunning the attackers and making them easy to Thrall for several seconds. With a pack of thralls distracting and limiting the amount of fire you take, this ability can easily handle stray attacks and give you immense survivability that only Nullifiers, Scrambus, Ancient Disruptors, and bosses can ignore.
- Danse Macabre: Just... a really good attack. It's strong, it's prolonged, its thoroughly controllable, it adapts to scale better with your victims, even shield-heals and grants overshield when used to splat thralls.
REVENANT'S WEAKNESSES
- Thralls are Stupid: The Ideal Thrall lasts all the way to the end of Enthrall's duration, then dies. Most of the time that doesn't happen - either they die way too early, often due to stupidly running into Revenant's own attacks or the death-effects of other thralls, or they last to the end of their Enthrall's duration and revert to being enemies again, which is a problem when four bombards, a Drahk Master, and two Scorpions are suddenly looking at your teammates or objective and are very pissed off.
- Reave still Has Usability Issues: Reave has a lot of purposes where you'd want to use it, but it's still pretty costly at 50 energy. Its delayed startup and straight-line ground-hugging trajectory makes it difficult to hit the targets you want when you're trying to Reave thralls for healing or Reave fast-moving allies to grant them Mesmer Skin.
- No Sustain: Revenant's kit requires constant power usage and is very energy-hungry, but he has no means of sustaining his energy without resorting to Zenurik focus. In particular, Revenant has to make new thralls and recast Mesmer Skin regularly, or he's only operating at a fraction of his full power. This leads to 'one power builds' like builds that focus on Danse Macabre to the exclusion of everything else - there's not enough energy for a non-Zenurik to use the whole kit.
- Busywork: Revenant's really busy. Like, really, really busy. You have to cast Mesmer skin, then keep flicking your view around to spot stunned enemies to be thralled, you have to select good thralls since you're limited to seven, you have to watch your health and shield to ensure that you Reave your thralls when it drops low, you have to both manually start and stop Reave to keep from flying off into the distance when using it, and you have to watch your thrall count and cull them when they get too numerous, otherwise you won't be able to make more when you need to. That's a lot to do, especially on top of keeping track of enemies, firing accurately, and focusing on completing objectives.
Let me go through Revenant, power-by-power, and see if I can't suggest some changes that would alleviate his weaknesses.
ENTHRALL
Purpose: Make disposable allies that make other disposable allies for you. Allies are uncontrolled, but do everything they did as enemies and can be exploited by your other powers. On death, they produce damaging effects that harm and kill other enemies.Strengths: Enthralled enemies enthrall other enemies with their attacks. Catching a bombard or mutalist moa or Corpus tech with Enthrall can quickly fill you to your thrall cap in no time at all, making a readily-available pack of victims for your other powers to exploit and producing a lot of quality distraction to help keep your Mesmer skin full. On death, thralls create a pillar of damaging energy that can kill other enemies, can be exploded by Danse Macabre to deal even more damage, and produces explosive homing projectiles that seek out new victims and damage them, so you're encouraged to cull your flock frequently.
Weaknesses: The death effects often kill your other thralls as often as they kill non-enthralled enemies, making it hard to keep a thrall flock without spamming Enthrall. If a thrall doesn't die, either from its allies, from you culling it for its death effects, or stupidly running into the death effects of another dead thrall, they revert to being normal enemies, and there's no real way to extend their timer to prevent this. As a result, there's a lot of timer watching by Revenant to ensure that all thralls of a given 'generation' are culled before the next batch is used. Enthralled enemies reverting back to normal also causes problems when teamed with Gara or Frost, since they can safely walk through barrier powers and thus get inside the team's defenses. On Defense and Interception, enthralled enemies don't count as enemies anymore, meaning they'll survive into the next round and then revert unless killed, forcing you to do more work. Allies tend to murder them really easy with AoE powers, causing you to waste energy creating them. Sometimes you wind up enthralling enemies near or in front of your target instead of the one you want, causing you to waste energy trying to thrall a stunned enemy when other enemies are crowding around them. Homing projectiles from death effects are hard to see.
Suggestions for Improvement:
- Death effects from thralls do not target or harm other thralls.
- Normal damage from Revenant's allies is either cut to a quarter, or deferred until the Enthrall timer ends and then applied all at once (similar to Nyx's Mind Control or Nidus's Parasitic Link)
- Creating a new Thrall sets the timer on all existing thralls to the new duration, ensuring that all thralls have the same duration, for less timer-memorization.
- Enthrall itself deals True damage over time to thralls, which begins to ramp up over time; if they stay enthralled long enough, they will die from it.
- Reave and Danse Macabre deal massive True damage to thralls, allowing you to quickly cull them when necessary.
- Enthrall's effect is merely cosmetic; it's actually now hitscan and always attempts to enthrall the enemy your reticle is placed on. If forced to pick a target, it will preferentially grab victims that are stunned by Mesmer Skin over others.
- Brighten up the homing projectiles from death effects.
- If a round on Defense or Interception ends and you have thralls, they die immediately.
- Thralls, even though they're allies, cannot walk through Mass Vitrify's walls and are still subject to CC effects from Revenant or allies.
- You can always directly-Enthrall a new target. If enthralling a new enemy would take you over your thrall cap, your oldest living thrall is released to become an enemy again. Thralls enthralling enemies cannot push you above the thrall cap and force a release this way.
MESMER SKIN
Purpose: Ensure no enemy can manage a sustained attack on Revenant until it runs out of charges. Create opportunities for energy-free enthrallment. Be granted to squishy allies via Reave to drastically improve their survivability. Wonky but effective crowd control which revolves around wandering into crowds and making them all stun themselves. Saving you from your own stupidity - see that last point.Strengths: Stun lasts a generously long time. Stun makes Enthrall free to cast on that victim. Stun ensures that sustained-damage enemies, like lancers and crewmen, cannot focus on you. Mesmer skin has a lot of charges at max level (even a modest build can have well over 13 charges) and can be recast to refill it. No real thought required to use it, which is a breath of fresh air compared to the busywork required for some of Revenant's other abilities. Can be copied to allies by Reaving them.
Weaknesses: Based on charges - can be depleted really fast in a crowd of focused attackers. Stunned enemies can be hard to spot as there's no visible effect aside from them grunting and going limp for a while. Some attacks won't pass their stun on to the attacker. Some enemies are immune to the stun and can continue attacking you constantly. Fog effect obscures vision.
Observations: Might be a bit too strong as it is. Making it recastable kinda made Reave's ability to restore charges irrelevant. Hardcore efficiency builds can keep Mesmer Skin up a very, very long time, and be damn-near invulnerable to most Grineer and Corpus while doing it.
Suggestions for Improvement:
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Remove Mesmer Skin's recastability again; require Revenant to use Reave to restore charges without waiting for it to expire.Alternatively, make recasting require you to cancel the existing Mesmer skin and then cast again to get a fresh set of charges, and increase the casting time on it to ensure that they can't stand out in the open with Skin down. - Highlight stunned enemies for Revenant and Revenant alone, so that he can quickly pick them out of a crowd for Enthralling.
- Ensure that attacks like Swarm Moa swarms, Tar Moa goop, and Hyekka Master burn patches pass a stun onto the owner of the effect when a Mesmer Skin wearer runs through them.
- Reduce fog effect on the owner of Mesmer skin or increase transparency on it to improve visibility. Make fog effect invisible or extremely translucent on allies that have it. Colorize it according to the bearer's energy color.
REAVE
Purpose: Exploit thralls for shield and health. Cull thralls to prevent them from reverting. Get from point A to point B in a straight line really fast and be invulnerable while doing it. Pass Mesmer Skin onto allies. Restore Mesmer Skin's charges.Strengths: Restores health and shields when you hit enemies, more if they're a living thrall. Totally invulnerable. Covers a huge distance. Lets you pass through enemies and allies alike without stopping.
Weaknesses: Usability issues: has a startup time and travels a long distance, requiring you to manually cancel it mid-dash to avoid sailing off into the distance. Strictly ground-to-ground; cannot easily use it in the air. Startup time makes reaving allies to grant Mesmer skin difficult if they are actively moving and dodging. Doesn't inflict much of any damage, even to thralls; not useful for culling, requiring you to use the more expensive Danse Macabre. Feels weak - no real feedback when hitting targets, allied, enemy or thrall.
Suggestions for Improvement:
- Add satisfying feedback for Reave hits - enemies stagger, maybe outlined by ghostly fire; thralls are momentarily lifted upward (think Bastille) and pass energy to Revenant; allies are overlaid with a ghostly image of Revenant that quickly fades away
- Change Reave's usage profile; make it work more like Rhino Charge or Zephyr's Tailwind. Sudden, short, rapid dash that goes exactly where you point it. Add a brief cooldown period if you're uncomfortable with it being spammed. Alternatively, allow you to curve your path while Reaving.
- Grant it massive true damage when used on thralls, to allow it to be used for culling them instead of the more expensive Danse Macabre.
- Allow Reave to restore some energy when passing through the death effects of dead thralls, at the cost of eating the death effect.
DANSE MACABRE
Purpose: When everything in the vicinity absolutely has to die. Culling thralls when on the move or on offense. Being a mobile point of area-denial. Ensuring your shields don't get broken while culling thralls. Providing the laser light show while Mirage provides the disco ball and Octavia provides the music.Strengths: Very strong, and adapts its damage to the enemy's health type. Unboosted, can be kept up for a surprisingly long time on a full energy bar. Boosted, deals even more damage. Culls thralls effectively and cause their energy pillars to explode; useful if you don't want the pillars around and other thralls running into them.
Weaknesses: Only effective option for thrall culling, which is annoying if you want to take advantage of their death effects. Costly; without Zenurik, you're going to be hard pressed to use it effectively against extremely high-level enemies. Costliness also ensures you can only really use quick bursts for thrall culling. Can't really do anything else while it's running, except for left clicking to boost it, moving around, and pressing three to cast Reave while it's active. Diminishes Reave's functionality. Has difficulty hitting enemies at ground level (CRAWLERS!) or enemies that have the high ground on you.
Suggestions for Improvement:
- Increase spin speed slightly, or have spin speed adjust itself depending on whether or not the beams are actually hitting something - faster when not touching anything (to get the beams in contact with something quicker), slower when they are (to increase the time the beams stay in contact with, and thus damage, the target)
- Make it deal massive True damage to thralls
- Allow you to do normal jumps (not double jumps or bullet jumps) while using it, to deal with enemies trying to escape it vertically
- Increase hitbox to extend from just below Revenant's feet all the way to his head.
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In the end, it's Nef Anyo's fault for Fortuna's situation and the debt of its workers. Sure, we might rob him blind on a daily basis on the Index, but even if we're making a significant impact in his finances, it's his swindling and debt-slavery that lead to the Solaris's issues. Losing Index matches or refusing to compete on the Index won't make a bit of difference, either; Nef wants those people in debt-servitude, and there's literally nobody out there to stop him. He can arbitrarily raise interest rates or even just add capital onto someone's debt whenever he damn well pleases. This is why Solaris United exists in the first place; these poor laborers have been stuck in debt-slavery to Nef for generations before we ever got involved in the Index.
So go ahead, rob Nef on the Index to your heart's content; every credit we pinch from him is one more he has to find a replacement for. Eventually we bankrupt him, he can't continue to pay wages, and his debt-slaves are already refusing to work. No money means no friends or allies in Corpus society, which means someone will finally get the chance to put a cap between his eyebrows without him scurrying away like a cockroach. Hopefully it's someone in Solaris. Just whatever you do, don't lose to Nef on the Index. Giving that fraud money just undoes the hard work of everyone else!
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Recently, I returned to Warframe and attempted to optimize my game cache. However, the launcher consistently hangs every time I try.
I have verified my cache through the launcher; this process successfully completes. It's just optimization that's failing.
What happens is that the launcher proceeds to optimize until about 29%, then spontaneously resets back to 19% and proceeds to hang. The launcher is still running and responding to Windows, but will not progress past 19%, even if I wait several hours. Re-verifying my cache and attempting to optimize again just repeats the behavior consistently.
If I enable Directx 10 and Directx 11 in the Launcher, the process will reset back to 21% instead of 19%, but still hangs indefinitely.
Disabling Aggressive Download and Bulk Download in the launcher have no effect on the problem.
Anyone know what's going on here and how to fix it? This doesn't keep me from playing the game, but it is intensely worrying - I'm kinda concerned that this might be a symptom of worse problems down the road.
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Well, didn't get mine, either. I mean, it's not that big a deal because I already have Ash Prime and mostly wanted the free Warframe slot, but I did link my Twitch and game accounts specifically for this stream, specifically to see if this Twitch drop would actually work.
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Well, here's my Operator, Arkvold.
Face
Full Body Front
Full-body Front Alternate Pose
Full Body Rear
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6 hours ago, peterc3 said:
Then why not just ask for the ability to be removed? The enemies are frozen in a space in which you have boosted damage, energy regen and are immune to nearly every source of damage outside the Rift. That only the Limbo is forced to deal damage with anything but their guns and everyone else be allowed to shoot enemies that are completely unable to fight back is broken. Stasis would be better off kicking all allies out of the Rift, then.
At what point did I say that only the Limbo would be forced to cease using gunplay? Stasis would stop affecting all allied fire, including your own. Cataclysm + Stasis would essentially be the same as any other form of CC at this point, only it would not cause damage (outside of cata's open/close damage ticks). Instead, it would provide energy regeneration and invulnerability to those outside the effect - which would make it unique among CC.
"Everyone else be allowed to shoot enemies that are completely unable to fight back is broken" - sure. Tell that to Stomp, Bastille, Discharge, Scarab Swarm, Avalanche, or literally any other form of crowd control in Warframe that's worthy of the name. Limbo would not be broken because Cataclysm + Stasis is a two step process to achieve what literally any other Warframe with a crowd control power can do with a single button press.
6 hours ago, peterc3 said:Cataclysm would like a word. This is a lot more complex to deal with as now you would have entities inside a Cataclysm that are outside the Rift.
An entity. Maybe as many as three in Excavation, and that only if there's enough power cores within your Cataclysm. Only players can trigger this effect, and then only if an objective needs to be interacted with or carried. The problem is a non-issue - it's not like there are enemies who can be outside the rift while under Cataclysm.
6 hours ago, peterc3 said:Make everyone invulnerable and able to complete missions even more easily.
Limbo already does that; it's the only real reason why people use him. The only difference under my proposition that now you can shoot things, at the cost of them being able to shoot back if you do. Being able to collect mission-critical loot prevents Limbo from trolling his team by banishing or dropping Cataclysms onto the mission-critical loot to delay things.
6 hours ago, peterc3 said:This heavily overlaps Limbo's abilities. Again, just Banish everyone and make them invulnerable and able to deal more damage, boost energy regen, etc.
There's literally no downsides for anyone inside the Rift with these changes.
Welcome to the point! Why should a buff, that Limbo spends energy on, be a hindrance? Does Roar have a downside, when it buffs the damage output of the entire team at once? Does Blessing have a downside, when it yanks everyone to full health and shields and cuts all incoming damage to a quarter of what it once was? How about Polarize, stripping armor and depleting shields from enemies, and refilling shields for allies? Maybe War Cry has a downs- nope, it just improves attack speed and armor for allies while slowing enemies.
Rifting should be something that Limbo is eager to do and desired by others for his ability to do, yet doesn't significantly interfere with your gameplay. My proposition allows just that to happen. You get rifted, you play like you always do, with the added benefit of the enemies you're not shooting being unable to shoot at you unless you or someone else in the rift tags them, or they enter Cataclysm or get Banished by Limbo himself. You have to compromise your own invulnerability in order to fight, however, so you'd better damn well make sure you can kill the target you picked out before they can kill you, and do it before your Rift buff ends, otherwise you're either going to be dead or you're going to pop out of the rift in the middle of all of your target's buddies - then likely be dead.
You complain about Limbo granting constant energy regen. Well, ask yourself this; what does Octavia's passive do for her allies every time she activates an ability? And it applies to her too, which means she's never not spamming abilities.
Point being - even as powerful as Limbo seems under my proposition, his abilities would not be out of line with existing Warframes. He would be stronger than he is now, be intuitive to use and intuitive to make use of, and best of all would be rid of the troll potential.
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2 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:
If I remember correctly, you can just roll, no need for backflip.
If I remember right it used to be backflip-specific, but was changed to any tap-shift maneuver later because most people don't backflip in typical play. Regardless, the idea's the same.
QuoteI don't know how I feel about this. I don't like it cause it kinda makes it overpowering. It's supposed to separate the battlefield but now all frames can do as they please regardless. I get why you want it but I don't.
The problem with it being a completely separate battlefield is that Cataclysm exists, and the only way out of it is to physically get out of it. No amount of rolling or flipping will get you out of the Rift if it's caused by Cataclysm.
I can kinda see why you'd think rift-state matching was overpowered, and it possibly could be. My goal was to prevent Limbo from trolling people by rifting someone who's looking down a scope or something and can't easily see the fact that their shots aren't doing anything against unrifted enemies. If they get rifted, then shoot an enemy, the only thing that changes from normal play is that the enemy is also rifted now and can fire back at them. They still get their shot and damage. It does make Banish rather powerful, because a rifted player can fire on a single target and be immune to any other enemies nearby - only their victim can fire back on them.
Another possible solution would be to have attacking players match the rift state of their target, instead of the other way around. This way if you're in the rift, shooting a normal enemy in a pack of normal enemies puts you at risk of all of the enemies in that pack, and unless you're Limbo himself, getting back into the rift is impossible without assistance. Problem is, that makes Limbo waste energy if he tries to banish someone to protect them, and they just shoot an unrifted enemy and their banish gets canceled immediately.
Either way, you can largely ignore the Rift if you want to - it won't hinder your ability to engage enemies to your heart's content. It gives you the option, however, to use it intelligently and carefully pick your targets, exploiting your invulnerability to everything but your target to take out high-importance enemies without as much risk. Like, killing that ancient healer eximus that's in a pack of other infested first without having to carve through his buddies to get to him.
QuoteI prefer us to be able to pick up loot in Cataclysm cause the loot would be banished with us. Normal banish still can't pick things up. A price to pay for the defense (like a phase out from other games)
Loot (resources, energy, health, ammo) would function exactly as it does with the current rift mechanics. Only loot that is also an objective (reactant, air caps, grokdrul during certain incursions) would be exempt from the Rift mechanics and picked up no matter what your rift state. I agree that the inability to pick up normal loot is the price you pay for the situational invulnerability, but I feel that should not prevent you from progressing your current mission. Being able to prevent you from progressing your mission effectively is why Limbo is viewed as such a troll now.
QuoteI don't see why carrying should be disrupted. If banished I still think we need to be able to carry data masses and such as long as we picked it up on the normal plane before being banished.
Carrying is disrupted under the current mechanics. If you get thrown into the rift while carrying an objective like a datamass or power cell, you drop it, and can't pick it up until you're out of the Rift. This lets Limbo troll people on MD, Sabotage, and Excavation by banishing people trying to carry stuff. Even if they roll out of the rift, they still have to go back and grab what they dropped, where Limbo just banishes them again. Or he drops a Cataclysm on the object and nobody can touch it until Limbo stops recasting.
My proposed changes end that disruption, at the cost of forcing you to remain in normal space (being immune to the rift), until you drop or use the object. Being unable to be inside of the Rift is the price you pay for being an objective-carrier, and it ensures that unless Limbo is following you around, banishing or dropping cataclysms to rift everything else, you cannot be invulnerable and carry mission-critical items at the same time. If he is, well that's no different than a Vauban following you around and dropping Bastilles on you, or a Rhino following you around with repeated Stomps.
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I originally posted this on Warframe's steam discussions, but I also wanted it here for visibility.
Limbo's not fun to play with. He exerts way, way too much control over other players. You have to play around his skills, and if Limbo is unwilling to communicate, you're going to get grief. He's especially bad on Spy missions, where a Limbo-troll can outright cause you to fail vaults simply by dropping Cataclysm in the computer room and then triggering the alarm.
So, I thought about it, and came up with four suggestions that should end the grief Limbo can cause, while also preserving, and in some cases expanding, his toolkit.
THE CHANGES
CHANGE 1: Stasis does not affect allied gunfire. There's no point - plenty of other Warframes can shut down enemy fire while also allowing allies to attack with whatever weapons they choose, and with Limbo, it's a two-step process already. Affecting allied gunfire is unnecessary.
CHANGE 2: Shooting or meleeing an enemy causes them to match your Rift state. If you are rifted, they become rifted. If you are not rifted but they are, they become normal. Enemies that become rifted because of this recieve a copy of the attacker's Banish duration, if they have one, otherwise they stay rifted for two seconds. This applies to both Limbo and his allies.
ADDENDUM: Warframe Powers do not cause Rift shifts, because they bypass the Rift already. Only players can rift-match. Enemies and NPCs, even rifted ones, cannot cause anyone to match their rift state.
CHANGE 3: You can hack things in the Rift and pick up carryable objectives, but doing so dispels Banish, prevents you from being affected by Banish, and forces both you and the thing you're interacting with into Normal space until you're no longer touching it.
CHANGE 4: While you cannot collect most items in the Rift, items necessary for objectives can be collected regardless of rift state. This includes things like Reactant for fissure missions, miniature life support capsules in Survival, and Grokdrul for Ghoul Purge incursions/bounties.Here's several examples to illustrate these changes in action, and how they resolve common forms of Limbo griefing.
EXAMPLE SITUATIONS
SITUATION: Limbo has rifted something that you want to kill.
BEFORE CHANGES: You can't do anything about it except jump into one of Limbo's riftwalk portals, or ask him to Banish you.
AFTER CHANGES: Shoot the thing. It'll drop out of the rift so you can kill it.
SITUATION: You are rifted, but the thing you want to kill is not.
BEFORE CHANGES: Backflip. If you're rifted because of Cataclysm, flee the effect and hope there's an unobstructed line of fire.
AFTER CHANGES: Shoot the thing. It'll be drawn into the rift with you so you can kill it.
SITUATION: Limbo has dropped Cataclysm and Stasis, covering the whole battlefield.
BEFORE CHANGES: You can't shoot anything until Stasis or Cataclysm is no longer affecting you. Either melee, or sit on your thumbs and wait.
AFTER CHANGES: They're all sitting ducks for you to murder freely, just like any other crowd control effect.
SITUATION: Limbo has dropped Cataclysm onto an alarmed spy vault.
BEFORE CHANGES: You're failing that vault because you cannot hack the vault console.
AFTER CHANGES: Limbo has just ensured that no enemy in the Vault can hurt you while you're hacking the vault console, because you're not rifted and they are.
SITUATION: Limbo banishes or drops Cataclysm onto you while you're carrying or trying to pick up a Datamass.
BEFORE CHANGES: You drop the object and can't touch it until you can escape the rift.
AFTER CHANGES: Grab it anyway and go. If it was Cataclysm, then none of the enemies in the bubble can hurt you because you've been forced out of the rift.
SITUATION: Limbo banishes or drops Cataclysm onto you while you're trying to collect objective items.
BEFORE CHANGES: You need to escape the Rift to continue the mission.
AFTER CHANGES: Collect your objectives anyway, the Rift doesn't matter.Thanks to these changes, Stasis and Cataclysm together will be about as strong as any other crowd-control ability, and Cataclysm can be used alone to protect yourself while hacking or carrying objectives if you're not worried about mobs chasing you outside of it. On the move, Limbo would have to recast Cataclysm and Stasis periodically to keep pace, since the objective-carrier cannot be rifted directly. This is in line with other forms of AoE crowd control, such as Vauban's Bastilles or Rhino's Stomp.
Banish would still have a use, as it's the most efficient way to place allies in the Rift so that they could use the new Rift-sensitivity to assassinate enemies, just like Limbo himself would do previously. Limbo himself is still the best rift-assassin, since he's more powerful in the Rift than normal thanks to his passive. You could even get rid of Limbo's portals when riftwalking to prevent accidental rifting.
Most importantly, Cataclysm + Stasis would no longer be the no-fun zone that it is now, which is Limbo's biggest problem to date.
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Dread - at least, it used to be before its firing rate got nerfed. It's a terrifyingly-strong crit-bow with a good primary damage type (slashing). Wonderful for killing a wide variety of foes when properly modded. Second favorite is the Rakta Cernos, mostly because it's a bow (therefore silent) with a wonderful syndicate proc (energy), perfect for long-range shooting.
That said, I haven't used the Lenz yet or any of the newer bows.
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Riven mods exist. They're a band-aid on low-tier weapons that's subsequently been monetized. This is one of the skeeviest behaviors in an MMO development house - creating a problem and monetizing the solution. The proper approach would be to fix these weapons so that they didn't need a ridiculous RNG-riddled mod just to function competitively.
Exclusive non-cosmetic Clan rewards for events. I wouldn't mind this so much, if it wasn't usually done in some form of indirect clan competition - like the Ignis Wraith only being released to the top 10% of clans in their size category during the Pacifism Defect. As a result of this, any clan who missed the event, or whose members are on hiatus, or had serious gameplay issues preventing them from performing well (like being a new clan with insufficient members to fill their ranks) is pretty much automatically worse than a clan who could get into the coveted top-10% position. This sort of indirect PvP is ugly and dumb, and I've had potential recruits refuse to join my clan because it doesn't have access to Ignis Wraith.
The fact that we still don't have universal Vacuum. C'mon - Vacuum's not the only reason, but it's a big reason why Sentinels get used so much over Companions. Sure, there are outliers, some people will use Companions no matter what, but for the bulk of us, it's Shade, Carrier, or Helios over everything else. Plenty of solutions have been offered, including options that allow for those who don't want Vacuum (or only want Vacuum on specific categories of items) to get what they wish. Why does DE have to gain from clinging to this mod's existence? What gaping hole of balance issues is removal and universalization of vacuum going to open, aside from freeing a mod slot on your companion?
Sortie Rewards are still RNG. I've seen way too many threads like this one or this one. How about letting us work towards the reward we want or need, instead of praying to RNG that we get it? Sorties are once-a-day things, you can't really grind them at will, especially if you're just breaking into sorties and don't have all of the tools yet to do whatever sortie shows up and don't want to be a leech getting carried. Letting us work towards the reward we want, via a token system or some such, would go a long way to making Sorties more enjoyable and more regularly-played.
The way Support handles fraudulent platinum. Just look at this thread, and this thread. We, as players, have no way to know if the person we're trading with is using legitimately-acquired plat. We, as players, have no way to know if the person we're trading with will issue a chargeback on their plat purchase or not. If we, as players, are going to be punished, potentially up to and including being banned from the game for the misdeeds of people we've unwittingly traded with who turn out to be scum, then give us the means to identify and refuse these trades or failing that, revert trades that involve fraudulent parties (so that negative platinum cannot result) and give us information on who to avoid and why going forward. Yes, it would be naming and shaming on DE's part, but at least at that point, if you trade with someone on the fraud list, you're at least forewarned.
The focus on Twitch.tv for events and loot. Prime with Prime, the Plains of Eidolon twitch streaming loot... I'm seeing a pattern here. Either you love and significantly use Twtich.tv, or you miss out on a lot of stuff. I'm sorry, but I hate Twitch. I hate the fact that streamers on Twitch and other services are getting preferential treatment in games. I hate the fact that games are expecting me to sit through Amazon's advertising and other BS, or expecting me to pay them money for stuff that's totally unrelated to Amazon or its products (like Twitch.) I am really tired of seeing Twitch promotions with exclusive content, in particular, because that's more things I have to write off as "never gonna get it."
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On 8/31/2017 at 0:50 PM, (Xbox One)Shardz said:
Words
You fail to consider the most fundamental fact of this entire proposal, and I'm going to use your own method of overly emphasized text to make it clear to you:
PVP and PVE in Warframe are separate for a reason.
They cannot be balanced against one another. Powers in PVP aren't just numerically different from powers in PVE, but are often outright mechanically different as well. Many limitations exist on power usage and even parkour in Conclave that don't exist in PVE, simply because they'd be overpowered in a PVP environment. For instance, you can't cast channelled 100-energy abilities without 100 energy, even if you've reduced the cost of the ability via mods. Staggering is replaced with impairment. Many Warframes and some weapons are outright barred from participating in Conclave because they can't be, or haven't, been balanced for PVP. This includes Nidus, Octavia, and Harrow, the three newest Warframes in the game.
Nekros's Shadows of the Dead in Conclave doesn't raise shadows - instead instantly respawns all your allies. Ivara's Quiver has completely different arrows in PVE compared to PVP. Loki loses Invisibility if he deals damage. Mesa's Peacemaker operates entirely differently, no longer gaining damage with use and narrowing the user's FOV. Iron Skin decays over time. Titania's spellbind works completely differently. Hysteria isn't invulnerable. Saryn's Molt attracts fire. Atlas's Rumblers have entirely different stats. Equinox's Mend works like Harrow's Penance. Slash Dash and Rhino Charge aren't invulnerable during the casting animation. Inaros's Dessication and Devour work significantly differently. Almost every ranged power has its range or area of effect altered. These are just a few of the examples of the kinds of changes Conclave has had to make just to make PvP somewhat approaching fair.
Stalker, and other assassins, work because they are PvE enemies, with very specific sets of abilities and weaknesses and vulnerabilities, including predictable AIs that you can work around. Even in Shadow Stalker's case, his abilities are not the same as player abilities, but instead are approximations of them - visually similar but mechanically distinct. For instance - his sword waves have much greater range than Excalibur's exalted blade slashes, but he only ever fires a few at a time, and he doesn't have to activate an ability to access them. His disco ball of doom is similar to Mirage's prism, but the individual beams do not lock onto you, and only fire downward - getting above it completely negates it as an attack. His Slash Dash looks like Excalibur's, but it is a straight-line rush that does not home in on targets and is never used in the air. His teleport is visually similar to Ash's, but does not stagger you or set you up for a finisher, and indeed seldom even leaves him in melee range. Even in regular Stalker's case, only Shuriken and Pull are similar enough to the player versions to be comparable, and even then, Pull only affects one target. To be equal to a group of players, Stalker needs to have eight abilities, including his signature Dispel. That's more powers than any player can have - even an Equinox, since she only has seven abilities since Metamorphosis is shared between her forms. Just because Stalker and Shadow Stalker make good invaders doesn't mean it can be made to work with actual player and player-controlled Warframes at the helm.
As a result, allowing invasions would not be fair to the invader, and it would not be fair to the invaded. The game would have to be completely rebalanced to account for PvP in PvE so that the two use the same systems, or changes can be applied in a context-sensitive fashion. That can't be done with the current systems. Your idea is fundamentally flawed if it doesn't take this into account, and like every other idea I've seen along these lines, it doesn't. Not in any concrete fashion - you talk about 'measuring potentials' but there's no fundamental way to do that. Your bullet points above are an attempt to oversimplify a complex problem - and as Conclave Rating and Riven Disposition have proven, oversimplifying a measurement that's supposed to indicate overall power or usefulness is asking for failure.
Mastery rank is not an indication of power, Conclave rank wasn't an indication of power. Mods can be difficult to gauge the impact of - for instance, status mods on a shotgun that can reach 100% status chance are a lot stronger than they are on other weapons, or even other shotguns. Measuring individual 'potentials' fails in the face of invading a PvE group, because you're invading 4+ players (including counter-invaders according to your idea) that could have abilities that synergize to various degrees. Fire Chroma providing additional max health to allies. Ice Chroma providing additional armor. Day Equinox buffing power strength. Rhino providing additional damage. Augmented Frost, Volt, Saryn and Ember providing elemental damage to allies. Inaros turning enemies into healing stations that render the user outright invulnerable while they heal. Nidus creates suicide bombers and a patch of ground that regenerates allies. Trinity and Harrow providing functionally-limitless health and energy to their entire team - Trinity doing so with the press of a button, and Harrow doing so with every kill. How do you measure the 'potentials' of these, on-the-fly and in a context-sensitive fashion? How can you precisely ensure that all of these possibilities are taken into account, and ensure that the invader is scaled up enough to handle the invaded, without being unfair to them in return? Further, how can you be sure your scaling won't break in the face of Warframes with non-traditional survival mechanics? Like Wukong, who can revive so long as he has energy, or Nidus who can revive so long as he has Mutation stacks, or Inaros who restores 20% of his health every time he performs a Finisher and can both heal and turn invulnerable until he's done by Devouring enemies?
There are a ton of variables involved here. This is why Conclave had to disable and modify so many abilities to ensure relative fairness, and even then it can be argued that they didn't get it right. PvE is not designed with PvP in mind, and no simple scaling mechanic will fix that. Conclave only works because DE went through every single mechanic, warframe, passive ability, warframe power, and weapon in the game and made case-by-case changes to almost all of them, then wrote up a completely new set of mods so that they didn't have to do the same thing for the mods, too. For your invasion idea to work, they'd have to do that all over again, because this time they have to include mods, and rebalance all of these in ways that ensure that PvE functionality won't be compromised if an invader drops in. Furthermore, these changes will need to be applied to regular PvE as well, because if all your powers suddenly start working differently just because an invader is around, that's going to cause problems in playing the game. For example, I know I sure as heck wouldn't use Inaros near as often in PvE if he worked according to his Conclave mechanics.
That's why your idea fails.
I am done discussing this. It's clear I'm not talking to someone who can see his own faults and discuss things fairly. You dismiss salient points as irrelevant, and furthermore outright insult me rather than answering the questions I've put forward or providing examples of your idea actually working correctly.
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Okay, here's some actually useful tips rather than the 'get mental help' replies you've been getting.
Enemies probably aren't seeing you, but they probably are seeing the bodies you're leaving behind. If an enemy spots a dead body, they'll become alerted and you'll be failed.
Solution? Don't leave bodies. Get a Thrown Melee weapon (Glaive, Glaive Prime, Kestrel, Cerata, do not use the Halikar as it has a weak thrown attack), mod it for as much damage as you can get, and use charged, channelled throws to kill enemies from a distance. Kills with a channelled attack disintegrate the body, melee attacks from a distance are guaranteed kills, and thrown melee weapons are completely silent. So long as you can manage the basics of staying out of sight, and use your third-person camera to peek around obstacles without actually exposing yourself, eliminating all of the enemies in a zone without being caught should be trivial.
NekroArts's advice, to use the practice rooms in the Relay, is good advice as well. Practice does make perfect, and once you've got a procedure down, finishing the actual test on a qualifying run should be much easier. There is no limit on practice runs, you can try them as many times as it takes to perfect a strategy. Just go to Cephalon Simaris in any relay and use the hallway that circles around outside of the east side of his chamber.
The 24-hour lockout sucks, but these tests get significantly less stressful, and significantly easier, if you practice them first.
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Honestly, these ghosts are great-looking. I really wish SotD's shadows were modelled on them.
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Thank goodness this is pinned at last. This post needed to happen sooner. I regret not doing it myself, given how often I see people asking "what did I miss?"
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On 8/27/2017 at 5:02 PM, (Xbox One)Shardz said:
I understand that Warframe was not designed with PvP in mind, initially. But, DE has shown their willingness to work with their game on a massive scale, to help add longevity and new features to the game. Not to mention, going back and recoding the game for this sort of system -- yet only with the Stalker in mind -- is something they've already said they're committed to doing. So, before they go and potentially sour the idea forever with the implementation of the Stalker version of the mode, I'd rather add my own hand to the pot and hopefully fix any potential main system-logic issues beforehand with this system.
Am I saying to make all enemy encounter like a player-to-player encounter, or dueling match and totally overhaul the entire game? No. That's impossible to do instantly and I don't think that needs to take place at all for this to work.
Does this game have to be Dark Souls for this to work? Not even close.. So, don't immediately cast the idea of anything from a Souls game away to the curb.
You're right Warframe isn't Dark Souls -- but no one's said it had to be, besides you. Besides, the Stalker demo has already proven this to work, at least on a lower scale.
Fall apart how so? You fail to mention any examples of how it will fail to work function-wise, in contrast to the Conclave. I understand Conclave and PvE have largely different balancing systems, but it's not impossible to have a balance for PvP in PvE with our current mechanics that would allow for PvP combat without Conclave Mods. Is it harder to do? Most definitely. Impossible? Not at all.. And the Dojo's dueling system is essentially a small-scale version of the start of PvEvP balancing. There are many things that would need massive tweaking in regards to another player, but that can be done.
Abilities will stop doing what exactly?.. They're still going to affect AI enemies the exact same no matter what -- they'll just have separate player vs. player balancing. Your Nova will still slow AI the same as always, Rhino will still tank AI damage the same as always, etc. But, another Tenno won't (and shouldn't) be effected nearly to the same extent by Nova's Ult and Rhino's Iron Skin won't be nearly as good against them and them alone.
Oh, no.. Someone might fail an objective for once?? That's a real shame.. It's not like missions are too easy as it is, or anything.. Your argument also falls apart in conjuncture to regular AI invasions that already exist in the game currently. What? You're going to tell me that the Stalker causing a mission failure is acceptable, but a player invasion isn't? That would be a highly flimsy approach that I wouldn't recommend taking...
Uncontrolled-? In that giant wall of text-based balances and restrictions above you that you're referring to, what in your head then looks at that and says: "Yep.. That's an unrestrictive and uncontrolled system right there"?
I've already explained how the system falls apart. But since you're so quick to accuse me of failing to read your points, while obviously not reading mine, let me give you some examples.
Players 1, 2, 3, and 4 are in a game together. For simplicity's sake, we'll say the mission is Defense, and we'll assign each of them a different syndicate. Player 1 is the game's host, and favors Arbiters, Player 2 favors Red Veil. Player 3 favors New Loka. Player 4 favors Steel Meridian. This is not a syndicate mission, so these four can co-op freely without any issues. Now we introduce Player X, who favors Red Veil, and is choosing to invade Player 3 (New Loka).
This situation is already biased in favor of the defender, given that he has three allies. However, Player 2 is also allied with Red Veil. What happens to him - does he suddenly switch allegiances to side with the invader? If he does, it's now 2 vs. 3. But what if the Red Veil player was responsible for the defense of the objective? Does his objective suddenly change? Will he be forced to sabotage the mission or risk failure simply because someone beyond his control decided to invade his game? What happens to the mission if the invader somehow pulls out a win? Does it just summarily fail? Does it just cost the invaded player a revive when they're killed? What if the invader, rather than killing the invaded player, decides to destroy the objective and cost everyone their mission? That's straight-up griefing.
Further, what if Player 3 is the only one with invasions turned on? What if players 1, 2, and 4 do not want to be involved in invasions? Is player 3's settings ignored? Is player 3's settings the default? How does the game govern whether or not invasions are allowed to happen in it?
See, invasions work in Dark Souls because opting into PvP (by turning on online functions and possessing humanity/ember) is also necessary for co-op PvE. It's built, from the ground up, for drop-in-drop-out dynamic multiplayer. Warframe is not. Furthermore, any time an invasion would happen, under your idea, the game would need to go from peer-to-peer hosting to dedicated hosting, forcing a host migration. This would immediately give you a signal that you're being invaded and people could just abort the mission entirely rather than deal with an invader. Time wasted for both parties.
You're also failing to consider how abilities would have to be simultaneously PvP and PvE balanced. You pointed out Rhino's Iron Skin, and that's a perfect example of why this idea wouldn't work. Iron skin provides a buffer of damage absorption that eats incoming damage. If invading players interacted with Iron Skin differently than enemies, then they would deplete iron skin faster or slower. There's no way to separate Iron Skin into "pve" and "pvp" - even if you had separate buffers for PvP and PvE damage, Rhino would still have to recast Iron Skin more often to refresh either absorption buffer. If an invader takes down a Snow Globe that was protecting a defense objective, that objective is going to be hit. If an invader can pop air canisters and steal dropped air capsules on the ground, they can sabotage a Survival mission's success even if they can't bring down a single player.
Again this doesn't work. In Dark Souls, there's no such thing as objectives that you need to protect beyond your own life. The only time an invader could screw you over is by invading you during a boss fight, and even then, entering a boss arena banishes invaders, outside of a few bosses who are designed to allow an invader to play as the boss. Other players invading you cannot screw your mission over irreparably - the only progress they can cost you is forcing you to die and respawn, with your ability to be invaded turned off. That wouldn't be the case here.
Warframe, as it stands, is too different a game to allow for PvP invasions based around syndicates to occur. If it were redesigned to be friendlier to such, I doubt it'd be a game I'd be interested in playing. If I want to play Dark Souls, I'll go play Dark Souls, or maybe Bloodborne - not Warframe.
QuoteThere's nothing that I know of that says Steel Meridian wouldn't protect an ally to them that helps them in their fight, even if they are a Tenno. Are you the top of their priority list as a Tenno? Maybe not; who knows. The lore is too ambiguous to say either way. Not to mention, ranking up in Syndicates is supposed to be you gaining their trust and proving your loyalty to them. Do you honestly think you can justify them then discarding you like a piece of trash when you've already proven, or are proving yourself, worthy of aiding them in their cause as a true equal?
Honestly, yes. They've already demonstrated their willingness to throw you into situations they can't, or won't, resolve themselves. Rathuum, for instance. They supply absolutely no support to you when you act as defendants against the executioners of Rathuum.
Were you around when it was introduced? The tac alert for it was basically Steel Meridian begging the Tenno to rescue a bunch of prisoners slated for execution by Rathuum. Steel Meridian provided no support, no assistance, and made the call to literally every Tenno out there, not just their allies. The only reward they offered was the Furax Wraith, and that was only after you'd beaten all three courts of Rathuum and killed Kela De Thaym to keep her from just executing the prisoners anyway. This is why I turned in the Prisoners over to the Arbiters of Hexis, since the Arbiters promised to give them fair trials in an unbiased court, rather than the Kangaroo trial of Rathuum. Steel Meridian would've just set them all free regardless of what crimes they might've committed, and I don't wanna know what New Loka or Red Veil would've done to 'em. There was strong indications that Red Veil wanted to vivisect them - which I don't doubt that they'd do given that they want to do the same to the Kavor Pacifists too.
The Lore's not really ambiguous when it comes to most of the Syndicates. Steel Meridian, Red Veil, New Loka, the Perrin Sequence and Cephalon Suda have all been given significant development in lore. Really only the Arbiters of Hexis haven't been touched upon.
QuoteTenno-on-Tenno conflict would, in fact, concern them, if their valuable Tenno asset was to be killed during combat, or if that other Tenno were to go against them and take their resources from them. A Tenno stopping someone they're opposed to would be seen as more of a good deed for them, rather than a pointless feud having nothing at all to do with them. I think that you're forgetting that the Perrin run as though they are a business. And what do businesses do with their assets? Protect them. Again, another flimsy, half-cocked argument.
And you're forgetting that the Perrin Sequence is allied to New Loka - one of the factions that you can be invaded by if you're on Earth. So hey, you bump off a New Loka invader, you've just killed the representative of one of their other business partners. Furthermore, Perrin sequence is kinda devoted to peaceful resolutions whenever possible. They don't like giving rewards for violence, unless that violence is necessary to achieve a more peaceful goal.
Or have you forgotten how distraught Ergo Glast was when he discovered that Animo, a learning-AI he'd designed for peacetime applications, had been appropriated and modified by Frohd Bek and turned into the control system for his "Ambulas Reborn" warfare-proxy project? Or how disgusted Ergo he was that he had to ask you to compete in the Index on his behalf, because it was the only way rescue Neewa and protect the Mycona people during The Glast Gambit?
Not to say that DE hasn't foregone their own lore to begin with, since the Perrin Sequence still gives out combat missions for syndicate rep just like all the others, but just because the mistake was made in the past doesn't mean it needs to keep being made going forward.
QuoteThe Red Veil refer to Tenno that stand in their way as being corrupt already. This would then mean all Tenno that are opposing them and their goals would, in fact, be targets, as well. That's why they send a death platoon your way when you show disinterest in them and their cause and actively go against them.. No issues to be found here, either.
Yes, Red Veil is a band of psychopaths who use accusations of 'corruption' to justify whatever offensive actions they wish to take (lest we forget them attacking the Kavor Defectors). Yet Red Veil doesn't make unceasing war on the other syndicates just for disagreeing with them. Need I remind you that they're allies of Steel Meridian. The very syndicate you propose as being the 'protective' syndicate, responsible for 'invading' other invaders.
QuoteFirstly, if New Loka were against the Tenno to the point of not wanting them to be on their 'precious' Earth, they wouldn't even let the Tenno traverse there at all. Secondly, you deflated your own argument again, in the fact that you mentioned New Loka are willing to use weapons of war if deemed necessary and already make use of the Tenno as is. This would then completely justify using the Tenno as guards of Earth, as they literally already did in the Silver Grove questline.
In short, there are no clashes in lore to be found.
Did you honestly pay attention to the Silver Grove? Did you forget that Amaryn prayed to the Silver Grove for forgiveness for allowing weapons of war to enter it? Did you forget these lines by Amaryn?
QuoteSilver Grove, forgive this Warframe on your sacred soil.
No disrespect, Tenno, but I had to ask forgiveness from the Grove. Carrying out this mission with a Warframe is a bit of a... contradiction for us.
She expressed outright disgust when she discovered that the Silver Grove itself was the product of Orokin genetic manipulation.
QuoteI... I can't believe this. The Silver Grove isn't natural at all... It's just another abomination, made by some delusional Archimedian. It was lies. I'm ashamed our ancestors worshipped such impurity. This can never get out. I'm done here. If the Grineer want to destroy the Silver Grove, let them
They utilize weapons of war, and especially Warframes and other Orokin-era weaponry, only reluctantly, because it's the only way they see to protect Earth. It's not until the end of the Silver Grove that Amaryn begins to question this.
QuoteThe Silver Grove was planted with the rotted seeds of the Orokin, corrupt in the eyes of our doctrine. Our tenets command us to reject it, but how can we? Silvana longed to restore Earth's former glory, just as we do.
If we are to see Earth restored, perhaps New Loka itself must change? I will convince them to see Silvana's creation for the miracle it is. Some will call that heresy, but it is true, and truth is the purest thing we have.
If New Loka ever achieves their paradise, Tenno - or at least Warframes - will be forbidden on Earth. At least, unless Amaryn gets the rest of New Loka on board with her more open-minded outlook.
QuoteLevel will have no impact on PvP, as I've already mentioned.
Each weapon will be toned down, or up in reference to other Tenno -- as I've already mentioned and you've ignored extensively. So, the only issue is a player's build itself. This can be handled through either a matchmaking system revamp, based around matching similar damage/build potentials, or by scaling the build to be irrelevant in numbers alone, in reference to other Tenno, making only total function changes a factor at all.
There's no "newbie ganking" to be had in this system. Please try and explain exactly how any ganking can take place. I'd honestly love to see you try.
Simple. Every scaling system in this game eventually reaches a point of failure. How do you calculate damage potentials, or "build potentials"?
Fact is, there is no single metric of player power. There is no way to numerically compare two players' loadouts comprehensively, let alone attempt to account for potential 1 vs. 4+ situations. If you attempt to, there are tons of ways to sway the calculations, like a single high-powered player being in a game of otherwise lowbies, or having 'frames with extremely unusual damage/defensive measures be present. For instance, how do you calculate the "build potential" of Nidus, when his damage output can vary by orders of magnitude depending on his mutation stacks? How do you calculate "build potential" when the group includes Harrow, who can literally heal and restore energy to his entire squad as fast as he can find enemies to kill nearby? How do you account for Equinox, who has two entirely different powersets depending on which form she's in? Explain to me how you figure in Nekros, whose Army of Shadows varies based on what he's killed recently prior to summoning them?
DE has already tried making a universal metric for player capability. It was called "Conclave Rating" and this is the reason why it was abolished.
QuoteIn Summary:
You're too quick to jump to conclusions, lack in flexibility of thought and are plain too pessimistic -- and that's coming from me of all people..
Don't assume that the idea has no way of working right off the bat. You also have only come at it with criticisms and have provided absolutely no potential solutions.
I'll be awaiting your response to this later and would also like to have a chat in PM's over a few other ideas I've already posted.
I'm not being quick to jump to conclusions.
You're being quick to jump to assumptions that your idea would work flawlessly without thinking about it in detail. I have seen this idea, in various forms, proposed at least a dozen times since joining these forums. There's a reason it's been shot down every single time. The idea has been discussed to death on numerous occasions, and nobody has found solutions that work within the existing game mechanics.
NPC invasions work because those NPCs are predictably powerful, easily scaled, and have set abilities, strengths, and weaknesses, just like any other PvE enemy in the game. If Warframe had been designed, from the beginning, to seamlessly support PvE and PvP using the same mechanics and systems between both, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. It wasn't designed that way, though, and it would take a complete overhaul of the game, from the ground up, to make it happen.
This is why PvP is separate from PvE, and has different stats, scaling, and even mods to begin with.
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On 7/17/2017 at 8:36 AM, motorfirebox said:
If there must be invincibility phases, at least make them such that players have a way of advancing the phase themselves instead of just making us wait around. Like, I dunno, move Sargus Ruk into a munitions factory, and we have to pick up Grineer firebombs and drop them on him in order to overheat his armor and expose a port. Stuff like that.
This, this, this, THIS.
If there's one thing I hate, it's a boss that can just decide to never become vulnerable. I've had to abort Sargas Ruk and Lech Kril fights just because their AI screwed up and they never exposed their weakspots after more than ten minutes of waiting and dodging.
Allow us to force invulnerable bosses to expose their vulnerabilities. That way, we're not at the mercy of their AI deigning to allow them to be harmed.
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Primed Pressure point is perfectly balanced versus its regular version.
Yes, it's less efficient in capacity per-rank. Maxed out, however, it provides far more total benefit-per-mod-slot than the regular version. It's much easier to fix a lack of capacity (slot a matching-polarity stance, use forma, add a catalyst), than it is to fix a lack of mod space (you have 8 mod slots and 1 stance slot, and that's all you'll ever have).
Primed Pressure point is fine.
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This is just Dark Souls' multiplayer covenant system applied to Warframe's syndicates.
The problem is, Dark Souls is balanced for that; in fact, it was designed for that from the ground-up. Many enemies are modelled with similar abilities to players, and even some of the most dangerous enemies in the game are essentially just upstatted PvP bots.
Warframe is not Dark Souls. Fighting other players is entirely different from fighting enemies in PvE. This is why Conclave has utterly different mechanics, a completely different loadout from PvE, and most Warframe powers in Conclave have vastly altered performance. These are the kinds of changes necessary to balance PvP in Warframe. The moment you implement PvP without them, or attempt to dynamically drop them into a PvE mission, things will start to fall apart. It's especially bad if you attempt to dynamically drop PvP rules into PvE: abilities you rely on to kill enemies or protect objectives stop doing so. Weapons that are effective versus certain enemies will stop being effective. And what do you do if an invader causes you to fail an objective and thus end a mission, without actually killing you? Your idea fails mechanically even before we get into the social problems of uncontrolled PvP invasions.
Your ideas for the syndicates' roles in PvP clash with their lore. First off, of the Syndicates, only the Arbiters of Hexis were created by and for Tenno (yes, Red Veil was created by a Tenno, but doesn't serve the Tenno cause directly at all). All of the rest are basically independent minor factions that Tenno can choose to work for in a mercenary role. Steel Meridian wants you to protect the few remaining independent colonies and ex-Grineer from aggression by the two major human factions. Tenno-on-Tenno conflicts don't concern them, unless those conflicts threaten an independent colony. Cephalon Suda wants data added to her databases, not necessarily yours, and only cares about Tenno-on-Tenno conflict insofar as it would provide her with new data to analyze. Perrin Sequence is concerned with the acquisition of wealth, and the use of that wealth to promote peace and opportunity - Tenno-on-Tenno conflict would be seen as a waste of valuable resources; they wouldn't endorse it. Even Red Veil, the most aggressive syndicate in the game, only wishes to purge the corrupt. Tenno-on-Tenno conflict doesn't concern them, unless it interferes with their purges.
Then there's New Loka. I want to go into detail as to why your idea for New Loka doesn't work. Loka wants to protect Earth, to preserve it inviolate, and re-establish a new home for pure-strain humanity there. Lore-wise, Loka doesn't endorse Tenno-on-Tenno conflict, save as necessary to preserve Earth. In fact, the Tenno themselves (or at least their Warframes) are seen as impure - in the Paradise that New Loka wish to create on Earth, Tenno have no place. They abhor weapons of war, but see them as necessary because it's the only effective means to force the Grineer off of Earth.
Mechanically, Earth is a low level planet. Any invasions allowed to occur there would invariably develop into newbie-ganking. I don't think I need to explain the problems with that. If syndicate invasions default to "on," prepare to see a huge influx of complaints by people who join Loka early and get pushed into invasions on Earth, or people just trying to complete Earth's starmap for the first time, or get some levels on a newly-minted 'frame or weapon, who get invaded by high-level Loka players and get summarily roflstomped. Again, this isn't Dark Souls - there aren't multiple paths through the game, you can't skip areas that have passive invasion covenants protecting them.
Another big problem, that absolutely nobody who has put forward ideas like this has addressed, is hosting. Warframe often has problems negotiating connections between four players without resorting to Host Migrations. What happens when a fifth player is suddenly forced into the game? Not only does every host migration have the chance of kicking people out of the squad unexpectedly, but every player after the first makes a stable connection that much harder to achieve. Further, what if the PvP invader attempts to artificially induce lag to gain advantages? It's possible - hell, it's the primary reason why dedicated PvP servers exist. Allowing PvP invasions in PvE would be a nightmare of connection negotiation and people trying to use whatever advantage they can get against one another, even artificial lag. This is unhealthy for the game itself, let alone for the gameplay within it.
Finally, there's the interplay between syndicates. Every syndicate has two syndicates with which it doesn't get along, and one with which it's allied. If you're working for Loka, you'll be allied with Perrin, and opposed by Steel and Suda. This is not like Covenants in the Souls games, where simply getting the symbol of a given covenant allows you to participate in their playstyle. Once you choose which syndicates to support, it is a long, involved process to change them. So if you choose Loka, you'd better love ganking newbies on Earth, because if your other syndicate is Perrin, that and getting invaded on other planets is all you're ever going to do.
There's no way this idea is going to work, not without severe, ground-up overhauls of several core game systems. Leave Dark Souls in Dark Souls.
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Not all Primes are tiny statistical boosts.
As mentioned, Rhino Prime's speed buff brings him to standard sprint speed and makes him strikingly fast for a warframe so tough. Volt Prime has over six and a half times as much armor as regular Volt. Ash Prime has nearly two and a third times as much armor as regular Ash. Nekros Prime gains more than half again as much shield over his standard form (which is actually useful to him thanks to the damage reduction provided by Shield of Shadows). Nyx Prime has over three times as much armor as regular Nyx.
These stat boosts are not inconsiderable, and make playing these 'frames significantly easier. The difference between regular Warframes and Primes might seem small, but keep in mind that they're amplified by mods Prime Warframes get more out of modding because their base stats are higher to begin with, and mods are multiplicative. A 25-point difference in base energy might not seem like much, but at max level and with a maxed out Primed Flow, it's the difference between having 618 and 721 max energy on Oberon. That's more than an entire, unstreamlined 4th power cast.
My advice to the OP is this: if the Warframe you want has a Prime version, and that Prime version is currently available, go for the Prime if you can. You can always make the normal version later for mastery purposes, rank it up, and then sell it to get the inventory slot back. It's much easier to rank Warframes later in the game. There's nothing that says you have to make the normal version before you have the Prime.
If the prime version exists, but is vaulted, simply make the normal version, and hold off on throwing any reactor or Forma into it. This way you can get the benefit of having the 'frame, and when the Prime version comes around again, you can just get it, sell your original, and rank the Prime.
Naturally, if no Prime version of your desired 'frame exists, just get the normal one, and enjoy it thoroughly. If a Prime version shows up later, just upgrade. Sure, you might lose a reactor and a couple forma, but in the grand scheme of things, those aren't too hard to come by.
There's no point in DE allowing people to 'upgrade' a normal frame into a Prime, or even Prime-like, state. If people can just upgrade regular frames to be just as good, and then slap skins on them, there's no point in selling Primes on Prime Access. May as well make the Prime version a simple skin.
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The reason why mobility will save you isn't because of the mobility itself. It's because moving fast will let you get from cover to cover quicker, giving less opportunity for the enemy to land unobstructed shots on you. Move fast enough, and you can blitz past enemies before they have time to become alerted or draw a bead on you with their weaponry.
Mobility only directly reduces enemy accuracy when applied well against foes that don't have hitscan weapons. Projectiles have a travel time, and although enemies are usually good at leading their targets, they aren't perfect and can't deal with someone rapidly changing directions and speed as fast as a Tenno can. This weakness is particularly noticeable with the Corpus, since they have fewer hitscan weapons across their faction, and those they do have (Elite Crewman Flux Rifles, Fusion MOA heat rays, Railgun MOA shots) tend to be short-ranged or have limitations. Abusing the weakness of projectile accuracy can save your life against Corpus Techs.
This is one of the reasons why Grineer are supremely dangerous at high levels - their preference for slug-throwing weapons means that they tend to have a lot more hitscan weaponry across their faction. Coupled with their aimbot-like accuracy at high levels, they can tear you down ridiculously quickly no matter how fast you're going. Worse yet, Grineer are excellent at area-denial attacks, making it harder to stay behind cover without taking damage - Nox, Napalms, and Hyekka Masters are all particularly adept at this tactic.
Aim gliding, in particular, tends to get you hit because you have a steady, mostly straight-line movement pattern that is very easy for the AI to hit or lead with projectile weapons. Keep your glides short and change directions in the air as much as possible, and you'll take fewer hits against projectile enemies as the AI struggles to lead their shots properly.
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1 hour ago, motorfirebox said:
So, I get that Warframe's lore is parceled out in small bits, and I actually enjoy piecing things together to learn more about the game world. There's some basic stuff that would really help just kinda contextualize everything. Stuff like:
- What's the overall population of the Origin System? Is it a few billion scattered amongst the planets, the bare remnants of a dead civilization finally starting to recover? Is it hundreds of billions, with thriving interplanetary nations?
- What's civilian life like? Where do Corpus citizens live—are there planetary cities, or do they mostly live on those gigantic ships? Do Grineer even have non-combat personnel, or is it an "every clone a rifleman" situation? Are unaffiliated planetside societies/cities like Cetus the norm—does every planet have scatterings of tribes and enclaves surviving on their own? Or do most groups basically only visit planets to gather and process resources?
- How many of those gigantic ships does each side have? When we do a Corpus ship mission, are we raiding different sections of one or two ships, or are there hundreds of those city-sized cruisers?
- Similarly, how many Orokin towers are out there? I'm not looking for a specific number, but is it more than one? Are we raiding different areas of the same lost tower? Are there a handful, maybe 10-15? Are there hundreds? Thousands? Same question for the Derelict—is it just one derelict tower, infested and taken over by Lephantis, or are there tens? Hundreds? Thousands?
There's lots more, but that's a starting point. I know that DE isn't exactly sitting on their hands, but it'd be nice to get some of this stuff nailed down. Maybe set up another round of cephalon fragments or something. Maybe just write a few paragraphs a month, and slap them into more synthesis targets for Simaris. There are systems in place for getting more lore out, use 'em!
A lot of this is hard to answer, but not as hard as you might think. DE has actually been very good at giving out small background details as part of lore if you know where to look.
Systemwide Population: Hard to estimate. Corpus breed Crewmen for a purpose, Grineer are cloned. Baseline, natural-born humans are something of a rarity. Most of the populations of them have been co-opted by the Corpus or annexed by the Grineer, but they do exist: examples include the Mycona in the Glast Gambit quest, or the sand tribe on Mars prior to Grineer annexation that's focal to Sands of Inaros.
Civilian Life: Varies significantly based on what cultural background a person is from.
Every Corpus is one part businessman, and one part employee. From birth, each Corpus tracks their net worth and profit, and attempts to make themselves and their abilities a marketable resource to improve their profit. Those who accrue sufficient wealth and personal resources (skills, equipment, connections) move from being a full-time employee to being an agent-for-hire, and from there to starting their own business, which competes with other Corpus business in the Corpus market (Nef Anyo is a prime example of this). The CEOs of the largest such businesses (for instance, Frohd Bek) sit on the Corpus Board of Directors and between them control the overall direction of their race. Given the fact that their military actual consists of private security corporations or internal security forces of corporations with other interests, it's very difficult to draw the line between 'civilian' and 'military' amongst the Corpus.
There is no such thing as civilian life for Grineer. Every Grineer is literally cloned into a given role, and remains in it unless they show aptitude for a different role that they are better suited to. For example, Executioner Reth of Rathuum was once a shipyard worker on Ceres, until he started performing unauthorized experiments to weaponize his power tools. Rather than discipline him, they saw the value of his designs and his savagery when using them and reassigned him to serve as an Executioner of Rathuum. Civilians are regarded as a waste, and Grineer who are wastes are typically killed and used as raw biomass to produce food (the Worm Queen is notably fond of this) or medicine, or are given over to Grineer scientists for experimental usage. The closest thing to a civilian for the Grineer are menial laborers, the Drudges, and even they are more like military engineers than civilians; they are expected to fight if the situation calls for it. Any Grineer of higher rank than a Drudge is invariably built for combat, including their scientists (for example, Tyl Regor), politicians (Vay Hek), and criminal court judges (Kela De Thaym).
The only real civilians left in the Origin system are colonists that have escaped notice by the two major factions, and those under Tenno protection. Their life ranges from tribal societies struggling for basic subsistence to small organized nation-states that trade with the major factions. Both struggle to keep from being subsumed by the Corpus or Grineer, or wiped out by Infestation. This is where the Tenno help out most often, but the Lotus deliberately attempts to avoid as much contact between Tenno and colonists as possible, under the philosophy that a weapon of war should not be brought amongst a peaceful people except strictly as needed.
Orokin Towers: By my estimate, there are at least, dozens if not hundreds of these. The Orokin shunted many of their installations into the Void to protect them from Sentient attacks during the Old War, putting the occupants into stasis to protect them from the Void's influence, and installing Neural Sentries to corrupt and control would-be invaders. They remain largely un-plundered because the void keys needed to gain entrance without being taken over by the Neural Sentry of a tower are difficult to come by and are poorly understood, even by those who have them. In addition to the key, one must also find a gate that responds to the key, and establish a torsion-beam device to use the key to open the gate to allow entry. Void Sabotage missions center around preventing the towers from being invaded and plundered by the two major factions by stealing these keys and shutting down the gates.
Tenno, by dint of being more capable within the Void than any other faction, don't require keys or gates to get into Orokin towers, and can easily intercept those that do.
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2 hours ago, Insizer said:
- the makeup of the rest of the frame has nothing to do with the the comparison of the two augments.
When the specter created inherits the 'frames own statistics, yes it does matter. Ash is actually one of the more durable warframes in the game, Equinox is not. It's okay for Equinox to be given a combat-capable clone power, because Equinox herself is fragile, and as a result, her clone is relatively easily destroyed. In Ash's hands, even assuming you don't go with the original idea and make the multiple clones invulnerable, having a combat capable clone is not fine because Ash is actually rather tough.
Quote- I was talking more about how the duality clone hardly even shoots to begin with in the best of cases (in my experience), thereby making it a pretty poor additional pair of guns. I assume that this smoke clone would use the same poorly-functional mechanics. That's why I made my "its just a walking Molt" comment.
Poorly-implemented mechanics do not excuse poorly-designed mechanics. After all, badly-implemented or poorly-functioning mechanics can, and often are, improved.
Quote- My previous post was made part in jest. I don't use Ash, nor really care about changes to him, so long as they don't bring back his nuking capability.
If you don't care about the subject, why are you posting about it?
[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread
in Warframes
Posted
Well, I'll stand corrected on that. Was that changed at some point since the last time I played Chroma? I need to review patch notes, and maybe pull Chroma out of mothballs and refresh my memory on how he works.
Regardless, if this is the case, he's the only 'frame I know of that allows a primary defensive power to be recasted without dropping it first or having some other penalty. Further, he has to build Vex Armor up; Mesmer Skin is like Iron Skin or Warding Halo - cast it and go. Chroma still has 'weak points' in his defenses (taking too much damage prior to Vex Armor being fully saturated; allowing Vex Armor to collapse without being refreshed which would necessitate rebuilding it) that he has to account for. Revenant currently doesn't, and that strikes me as being rather strong for a 'frame that has so much else going for it at the same time.
I'm not specifically talking about you when I say that Mesmer skin's strength is promoting the use of it and Danse Macabre. I'm speaking more in the general sense. Most people, especially those without Zenurik, look at the busywork of Enthrall and Reave and the relative simplicity of Mesmer Skin and Danse Macabre, and just opt to use the latter two - it saves on energy, provides CC, and deals massive adapting damage.
My goal with my suggestions is to make Reave more desirable to use and grant much-needed energy sustain to Revenant's kit, eliminate some of the busywork of managing thralls and make them more effective at their jobs, justify the busywork that remains by making thralls and Reave genuinely potent combat options, and make Mesmer Skin less of an invulnerability button that lets Revenant out-tank Rhino and thus makes Reave's healing and Danse Macabre's shield heals more valuable for Revenant's ongoing survival.
Do you know how Mesmer Skin works? A single enemy cannot 'burst' a user with Mesmer skin so long as it has at least a fraction of a charge left (charge count will read zero, but you still get one freebie). They get stunned after one hit.
Further, removing recasting was only one possibility. The other one, which in turn I like better thinking on it, and I want you to read this carefully: Mesmer Skin remains recastable, but must be shed before it can be recasted. Think Rhino's Iron Shrapnel augment - cast once to activate, again to remove, once more to refresh. So yes, you can hide in cover and refresh Mesmer skin, because you can choose to drop it and refresh it, you just have to spend the time for casting animations to complete.
You're not supposed to be using Danse Macabre and any other abilities except Reave at the same time. If Revenant could use all of his abilities during Danse Macabre, he'd be completely and utterly overpowered beyond any currently existing Warframe and would be nerfed into the ground almost immediately.
If you need to refresh Mesmer Skin, you simply stop spinning, enthrall some things that Mesmer Skin has stunned while you're spinning, then Reave them. Or find a quiet spot away from the enemies to shut off Mesmer Skin and reactivate it before it expires. Under my suggestions, Reave is an option, for those who want to stay in the thick of the fight and still gain Mesmer Skin charges; they just won't get their full charges back unless they Reave a full complement of Thralls a couple times. If they want the full set back, they have to step out of combat for a breather, refresh Mesmer Skin somewhere safe, and then return.