Yokoshima_Onikiba
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Posts posted by Yokoshima_Onikiba
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Also getting this problem. When I do get past checking for updates, I get stuck on the log in screen.
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So I tested contentious weapons based on some feedback and what I found out is amazing (imo). Remember my Tigris 13571 damage per shot. I shot twice so I put in 27142 damage. On level one MoBs that yielded DoTs of ~ 120 and explosions of ~ 600. My DoT was ~.4% of my damage (so not quite 25%), and the explosion was ~2% (so not quite 50%). I got similar results with the Opticor and a few other weapons. Now take a look at my rank 22 Ignis:
Pretty impressive, right? I know you are all jelly. Next is my build.
Good luck topping that. Now for the main part. I expended two ammo per test. But then I got this:
899 DoT Damage. That's ~ 7 times more DoT damage. Here is the explosion:
~4,700 damage. Again it is over 7 times the damage.
So 340 damage is more than 7 times as powerful than 27142. That makes sense.
This applies to MoBs as well. Projectile weapons do almost nothing, but even one electric crawler will do more in a few sec. then a dozen other MoBs over 30s.
<rant> How this skill was released as it was is surprising. Do they not have a department to test skills? This isn't a hidden, minor thing. Its painfully obvious something is wrong. But, much like the Inaros sandstorm being ~ half the listed radius bug, I am more surprised at the community. How is this not more well known or talked about? I'm not saying thousands or anything, but this thread doesn't even have double digit followers.
I guess as long as people see big numbers and things die, no one gaf. Or this community is full of the obscenely lazy. Or, no one uses mag. I really do not know.
There is something very wrong with this skill. And the 25% that is in the description is wrong across the board. Something should be fixed, either the mechanics or the skill's description, because I do not know what was intended. </rant>
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1 hour ago, GhostLacuna said:
For regular weapons i would say 4/s is close to the truth. Beam weapons however behave very differently.
see the quanta vandal fotage here against 3 types of level 100 enemies.
part 2
For some reason beam weapons build up their damage much much faster.
The DoT from magnetize seemed like it was about the same (4 displayed numbers/s). Though I could be wrong.
Also, still no info on why at times the DoT and explosion are much, much weaker than the listed 25% (see any of my tests or screen shots for more info.)
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1 hour ago, GhostLacuna said:
9.) How do MoBs like Disruptors affect both the DoT and the Explosion damage?
10.) If thrown weapons add damage, at what rate (as in if they stay in does it go up/sec, etc.)
9. Distruptors lowers the damage.
10. Thrown weapons are bad and only add damage per thrown object so without multishot and fire rate its not very good at dealing damage wwhen it comes to dots. The explosion can still kill fine.
part 2
More good info, thank you. It is interesting though that your Despair, shot per shot, does ~ double the DoT of the Tigris I used. It seems the DoT ticks 4/s, does that seem about right to you?
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4 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:
1) from testing the damage bonus for dots are affected by both pure damage mods like serration, point blank and hornet strike, Multi shot mods also increase the dot damage.
Explosion only triggers if first target of magnetize dies before timer runs out. Explosion seems to increase the more damage has been added into the magnetize. exact number is not something i have at the moment.
Dots are affected by armor of opponent while level 100 butchers just melt level 100 heavy gunners can survive and require several magnetize depending on weapons used.
2. Damage type is remembered, Was one of the easiest test to do. Blast+corrosive is a very powerful combination on torid for example. It seems to use the standard formula for IPS procs as far as i could see.
3. unclear at the moment all snipers besides lanka deal the lowest dots of all weapons tested. Beam weapons can deal theirs several times per second it seems. I post video examples later.
Also unexploded penta explosives deal quite a bit of damage and procs IPS procs for some reason.
4. Enemies takes Zero damage from magnetize itself unless there are shrapnel from polarize around or they use an ranged attack while inside magnetize.
a. Seems to be the same amount absorbed aka flat 25%.
b. The main target takes higher damage then surrounding enemies and suffer more from procs aka IPS or elemental porcs all hit the main target first.
c. Hard to give direct numbers but overkill damage seems to add to the explosion and dots.
d. Rate seems to be a flat 25%
5. Gas works, not very effective on some weapons aka hikou prime. On lanka its overkill instantly. Will test the over watch mod and see how it goes.
6 you missed nr 6.
7. its very large, lowest i seen was 38 dot highest around 5000 on level 100 gunners, on infested and corpus its higher. Same with explosion i got under 1000 and over 200000 depending on target and weapon will post sample videos later. Takes a while to upload them.
8. I have seen no falloff of damage at all the explosion seems to be within its listed explosion range. Terrain affects it though.
a. Range mods greatly affects the explosion range and bubble size. at max range 250 the bubbles are 10 meter wide and reach 37.5 meters.
b. Max range is 250 aka 37.5 meter explosion radius and 10 meter bubbles.
9. Will test this today.
10.will test this today
11. Mobs damage is more like how nyx mind control targets damage other mobs. The damage is not that high. Heavy gunners can died from their own fire but it takes a while for that to happen. Needs more testing.
12. Will test today
First off sorry for the formatting issues. I was having an odd bug that cause hitting the "return key" to remove random, unhighlighted segments of text. I thought I fixed everything, but it seems I was wrong.
Thanks! Unfortunately, I think you misunderstood my question No. 1. Magnetize innately improves damage. 25% is absorbed. I wanted to know if the innate damage bonus (and by extension power strength) affects the absorption rate. Though I already knew everything you mentioned for No. 1, it's still good info.
It seems I was also unclear about No. 4 (which I inadvertently removed the "4" it seems). I know the skill itself does no damage. When I mentioned "damaged" I was referring to weapon damage to MoBs within the skills AoE, not the skill itself.
It also appears I was unclear about No. 7. When I meant damage variance, I didn't mean the DoTs min/max damage. I was referring to the innate variation of the Dot. As I said in the bottom of my post, a MoB entered and the DoT damage varied, going up and down. That means it is not a flat 25%, but rather a range. Or the MoBs were taking 1s long procs. I suppose that could happen.
Thank you for all your hard work. With luck I will not only find out why the skill is not absorbing 25% of the damage for the DoT nor the explosion, but other important information as well.
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7 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:
Aha ok then i can understand your frustration. The wiki does not have the full formula yet so i can understand you being annoyed about people to look for answers there.
Now i dont remember if simulacrum has any Mastery rank requirement but the key need 50000 standing to unlock then you can test all you want.
I have access to it and quite a lot of weapons unless i sold them after i used them as mastery fodder.
I can do some base tests against level 20, 50 and level 100 enemies just so we have a baseline to go after. Are there any specific weapons you want tested Yoko?
otherwise i just round up a few and see what happens.
I think you need to be the max rank, not 100% on that though. The main ones would be continuous weapons, explosive, thrown, and normal. I don't have the numbers on me, but I tested the Tigris on some infested and it did more damage as one would expect from weakness to slash. The main questions I can think of are:
1.) Does the damage bonus (and by extension power strength) affect the damage absorbed that is used for the DoT, explosion, or both?
2.) Does it remember damage type? (again, I think it does)
3.) Is the % absorbed the same for all weapon types (the ones listed above)?
a.) if not, what are the real %s?
Does a Mob need to be damaged?
a.) If not, does it in any way affect the damage absorbed?
b.) If yes, does it matter if its the one the skill is cast on
c.) If yes, how is overkill damage treated?
d.) If partial (as in you have a higher damage absorption while the target(s) are alive) what are the rates?
5.) Do explosions or PAoEs affect it (Nightwatch mod for the Ogris, gas, etc.)?
7.) What is the damage variation in the DoT and/or the explosion?
8.) What is the falloff damage of the explosion over X distance
a.) Is the fall off modifiable via range mods?
b.) Is there a cap
9.) How do MoBs like Disruptors affect both the DoT and the Explosion damage?
10.) If thrown weapons add damage, at what rate (as in if they stay in does it go up/sec, etc.)
And the harder, less important ones
11.) Is the damage from MoBs treated the same as player damage?
12.) Do DoTs, such as toxin, affect the damage?
What I am pretty sure about
After the target has died, you can still add damage
The DoT damage is not static (DoT values went up and down as MoBs ran through it)
Explosion damage diminishes with distance
Disrupters negate the pull-in effect on MoBs, and seem to reduce DoT damage.
If you could answer any of these I would be grateful. As I am pretty sure mine is not bugged (as that would be odd) the answers to these questions could dramatically improve the wiki's lacking and incorrect description.
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Tested again on Apollodorus. Same weapon. Full video upon request. Interesting results.
Test 1
2 shots, 2 Lv 1 MoBs hit.
Dot: 125
Explosion: 598, 619
Test 2
2 shots, 2 Lv 1 MoBs hit.
Dot (in order of MoB arrival as more damage was being absorbed from enemy fire, I presume): 121, 197*, 164*, 130, 228.
Explosion: N/A
The two * numbers were done by lv. 1 butchers. Surprisingly the later one to enter took significantly less damage (~20%)
Test 3
6 shots, 1 Lv 1 MoB hit.
DoT: 420
Explosion: 1913,1940, 7185,1951, 1969
All Mobs were almost at the epicenter with no obstacles. This one was so odd here is a screenshot:
Test 4
14 shots, 2 initial Lv 1-2 MoBs hit
DoT: n/a
Explosion: 3788, 1825, 2156
I'll test infested in a bit.
Ignoring that odd 7k, there seems to be a linear increase regardless MoB presence. Mind you 25% of just the sheet IPS of the weapon is 2887.5 (with two shots) so the DoT and explosion are still both very low.
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3 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:
Well when i started writing my response most of the posts that are now posted didn't exists it was still page 1 by then. I had the post open and just posted it after i did the above tests and uploaded them to youtube.
As for its damage function its still unclear i am still doing tests myself. Beam type weapons seems to do damage entirely different then other weapons due to how they work. Atmos and ignis for example can deal very very large amounts of damage in short order while things like sancti tigris deal less effective damage.
Perhaps we should pool our tests and decide on various enemy types and levvels to test at to see if our results match up or not.
" Well when i started writing my response most of the posts that are now posted didn't exists it was still page 1 by then "
Fair enough. I was getting very agitated, because each time I asked a question, here or in region, over 90% of the people didn't read the question. For example, I wanted to know how the toxin DoT worked. I quoted the wiki wich states base damage but doesn't define what that is (at first I thought it was non-modded damage, but on another page it said base damage skills like serration effect it. On another, it said the toxin damage affects it. I wanted to know if "base" meant base toxin, base weapon, or modded base weapon + toxin - all other elemental. I also wanted to know if crit damage affected it) . Simply put I just wanted more detail. And I did get dozens of responses, but almost all of them were "its not hard math" or "read the wiki." Quite a few "I don't know"s wich was irritating in its own right. Two hours off an on of this and not one useful response. So ended up testing myself. And right after that whole thing I read your post and admittedly kinda lost it. But you seem to be literate so I'll take this digression to apologise. So yeah, sorry about the tone of my post and all that. Anyway...
I am pretty new to the game. I don't have access to the testing area, nor do I have a big arsenal of frames/weapons. So what testing I can do it severely limited. I can record good video now, so that's a plus. My first tests were on the Apollodorus segment on Mercury. Low-level Mobs so I wouldn't die, and plenty of them. Plus I doubt there armor would affect much. But I saw some odd results vs. the infested, so I am going to test a bit more. If people with access to more than I would like to run tests in controlled environments, preferably with high damaging weapons (DPS and DPShot) so we can see if things like overkill or MoBs being in there matter. I also want to find out if power strength effects it, and more importantly how (for example I know it affects the explosion directly, but does it indirectly from the 25% absorption. As in if you do 6x damage, will you absorb more than if you do 3x? Is is the absorption based only on unmodified incoming damage? Things like that) but that is a later step. Right now I don't have a grasp on even the basics.
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So I tested the duration, going from 57% to 113%. No change. However I was able to get the DoT up to 1.3K on the longer one with 6 shots vs. ~200 with 6 shots. This makes me think that unless you actually damage something it doesn't count. And that overkill damage isn't factored in well. It would explain why on high-level MoBs people, including myself, end up doing much more damage. Is anyone else able to test this?
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2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:
Just taking a guess....
Basedamage-10k-> dot over the full duration: 2,5k (25%, probably more due to the multiplier. Something like 10kx3,5->25% of 35k-> dot for 8,75k)
A lets say slash or poison dot also has a similar execution. The base doesn't tick per second but is stretched over the full duration. Only the explosion would reveal the safed up damage.
Would explain the low dot damage and they do seem to have done something similar with saryn where only a fragment of the poison damage is revealed under a constant flow of spore ticks. The actuall damage per second might therefore be or get much higher then it's able to show. Especially as it absorbs hostile bullets as well, which scale endless.
Someone mind testing the duration influence? Less duration would result to higher ticks by that logic.
Holy S#&$ thank you. That is actually a good idea. I'll test that out.
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5 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:
Ehh its easy to gain over 40k dots and over 200k explosion damage on magnetize against regular enemies.
Also the explosion is the big killer as seen here:
Also this still works in simulacrium which is hilerious:
Again, if you read anything including the title you would know I'm not saying the skill is weak/op/good/bad etc. I really don't understand why I need to repeat this over and over and over again here. I want to understand how the skill works, because as you can see from my posts it is not as the wiki or skill describes it. If you can do 200k explosions, well that's just real neato. But it alone is also entirely irrelevant to this discussion about mechanics.
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19 hours ago, Zari2015 said:
An http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Butcher has 5 armor.
I'm too lazy to calculate 5 armor, but i know 15 armor means 4.76% damage reduction...
Also for further calculation maybe this will help you... http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling
So there is no way the armor is responsible for the low explosion, and the extremely low DoT. Well thanks for the help. I guess I'll just wait a few months and see if more info as to how this skill works.
Also thanks to Souldend78 for the definition of ips. I've heard it before but I forgot.
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18 hours ago, Souldend78 said:
Gah, they are small, almost faded.
I'm just starting to wonder if dot is based of ips, but also deducting damage from armor/etc....doesnt make any sense having those low numbers.
Was trying to get into using Mag again, but still need more practice, she is definitely "a too many skills combo (and hoping enemies lives through it) do to some dmg" frame, at low levels, then a " I can't live long enough to lure enough enemies into my combo" frame at mid/higher levels.
The Mobs were level 1-5. I assume armor comes into play when determining the DoT, but I am 99% sure they don't have that much armor. Also, I don't know what ips is. And again I am sorry about the faded numbers. My video capture skipped every other second or so so I had to take what I could. I had a better program, but I was unable to turn off my computer so I couldn't install it (as a restart was required).
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48 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:
Damage multiplier is applied to magnetized enemy
Magnetize is charged up similarly to absorb/antimatter drop. The DOT is calculated as a portion of the damage absorbed (.25) per second
The zone explodes after duration runs out AND the targeted enemy is dead. ( if enemy isnt dead, the zone doesnt pop for damage)
I know all of this, as I have said a few times in this thread. My issue is 127 =/= (.25*(27142.6)). Or, if you prefer 127 =/= 6785.65. Either that or these level 1-5 MoBs have much more armor than I realised. Also, in case you don't know where I got those numbers and hate reading they are from my screenshots. Two shots of my Tigris has a listed damage of 27142.6. As you can see the MoB entering the field took 127 damage from the DoT. Sorry if I came off as rude, but I feel as if I spent most of my time in this thread repeating myself.
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1 hour ago, Souldend78 said:
Where is your damage?
All I see is affinity gains.Small grey numbers by the MoBs (not over them) For example the last pic says "1569". I wish I could change the font/size/color of the damage, it would make this much easier. If you have trouble reading the numbers I can tell you what is in each pic, or better yet someone else would.
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I've tested with a few other weapons and have gotten similar results. The AoE is often less than 25%, and the DoT is much, much less. I can provide screenshots if requested. I would also like to reiterate that I am not saying the skill is weak/op/bugged. I am just trying to find out how it works. On the wiki the description changed to: " Additionally, the field deals 10 / 15 / 20 / 25% of absorbed damage per second to all enemies in range. " Can anyone confirm that means 25% of the current damage is dealt as a 25% burst damage within? As in if you do 1k damage, 250 damage will be distributed among the rest within the skills AoE only once, not as a DoT as was once implied. As to why the explosion damage is also lower than expected I have no idea. Assuming 100% (base) PS, and you put in 10k damage, I would assume it would do 5K in an AoE, or 10k (if the damage multiplier is taken into account). However, even on lower level MoBs right next to it, I still do not see more than 3k with 30k in. Stronger weapons, most notably on higher level MoBs, do increase the explosion damage. Just not at the rate I would expect from the wiki/skill's description.
Is my math somehow wrong? I use .25x(Bx(2x(1 + S))) or .25x((BxM)x(2x(1+S))) where B is the base damage listed on the card, taking into account no crits etc, S is your power strength, and M is the skills innate damage multiplier. And to define M I would use M = 2x(1+S).
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Ok I have some screen shots. And a laggy video if someone wants it. This is the weapon:
Build:
DoT with two shots fired into it:
Explosion with two shots:
Explosion with 6 shots
Another Explosion with 6 shots
So from what I can tell the DoT just doesn't do what I expected and I have no idea how that damage is calculated. The 6 shot DoT was 360-450. I think when the initial targets dies, no more damage can be absorbed. Or there is something else that explains it that I just overlooked.
My video capture is crap/laggy af, but I can upload it if anyone can recommend a good place aside from youtube to do that.
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9 hours ago, Nazzami said:
Been playing around with some builds honestly from what I've found you don't really even need power str to make magnetize nuke. Even with 40% power str it still capable of taking on sortie level enemies it basically nyxs absorb logic the more to shoot into it the more damage it will do once it detonates. Personally found range/duration build to work best since it lets you lock down pretty large areas.
I've been, on level one MoBs, putting in over 50K sheet damage (so no modifiers such as damage bonus from the skill, no crits, etc.) and getting explosions that average 300-2000 at the high end. I used the Karak Wraith, Tigres, and the Drakgoon. What really annoys me is a single shot from my Karak Wraith does ~ 400+ damage to the MoBs, but with 235% range and the MoB being under 10m away from the center my 72 rounds I fired into it only does 400-500 damage most of the time. Anyone know a good place to upload a video other than youtube? Maybe something like a dropbox? I honestly don't know what's allowed here.
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2 hours ago, Rodee7 said:
-snip- ? (idk need to know my forum etiquette)
I agree the element damage varies based on what type of enemy you're facing.
I bet there are bugs that are not taken into account but I'm not really sure about that
I tried it on some bomards and a swarm of fusion moa's lvl 120 and took them out with the explosion
Besides the radiation elemental damage I have no idea why so I made a video
with low duration, high range and okay power strength
This happened at 1:10.. kinda hard to read though
I need to do more testing it seems. Using the same weapon I get nowhere near that kind of damage. Its OK modded, but not that good (still have an empty slot) I also don't test there (as I can't) and my MoB level is ~30 with 3-4 at a time usually, and I only cast the skill once, with no other skills for my tests. But I am happy to see it can be made to work in some scenarios. I usually get a few K of damage at ~38% duration going full auto 'till it explodes. Could even be an elevation issue I am overlooking or something. I'll test again, and make a vid if it is still an issue.
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17 minutes ago, out_of_touch said:
I have no clue dude, I have extremely low duration and I've never witnessed magnetize actually exploding, though I haven't tested in the simulacrum, only through normal gameplay. I was fairly excited for the rework but as it seems right now the bubbles just stay there forever (even after I kill the target) and block bullets.
It stays for the total duration of you skill after the target dies. Reduce your duration to ~ 20% and you will see it go off. My guess is it is this way so you have to choose between a small, persistent DoT or a large one time DD skill.
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20 minutes ago, xShun said:
The explosion occurs when the target of magnetize dies, any damage afterwards may or may not add up to the final explosion damage (probably would tho). The aoe is decent and you can reach hundreds of thousands of damage from the explosion afterwards depending on the amount of shots that went into it. Although I tested this all against level 115 heavy gunners and killed the main target in one long magnetize. maybe around 10s worth of magnetize. Highest I got after killing a heavy gunner and continued shooting was around 200k.
Didnt notice the DoT since I just went and shot them after magnetizing them. Gonna test it out tomorrow some more if the damage increase the more you shoot at it even if the main target is dead.
Hmm. I used a - duration build and, having only tested with the drakgoon and Tigres, I couldn't get over 4k despite doing well over 70k damage before the 3.5x multiplier. And that's with killing multiple MoBs. If the absorbed damage only applies to the initial MoB hit with the skill that is very annoying indeed.
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I know the base DoT is low, but I thought 25% of the weapon damage you do is added to that DoT. Does it just add it for only one tic? Is it bugged? Simply poorly written? Because without that it can't be an offensive barrier (one thing I wanted to do with it). Using another weapon I got the explosion to be 3-5k at ~30% of the abilities radius, but that is still a far cry from what it should be (I put 75k sheet damage in, obviously that ignores crit chance/damage) which means I also can't utilize a bomber build;d (- duration as much as possible, + power in case the multiplier effects explosion damage, + range. I haven't tested if polarize works at the listed rate (25% of damage dealt) but it's so pitifully low (700 right now for me) that it would not change anything even if it did work as listed.
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17 minutes ago, Prinny13 said:
1. If you use the right element against right faction you will deal serious damage.
2. There seems to be a bug that don't account/ benefit from some weapons :/
And i hope this video (with poor quality) helps you in a way.
Thanks for the response, but that video didn't really show off the DoT nor the explosion, the two things I have a problem with. And for damage type I was using Corrosive vs. the Grineer and gas vs. the infested. I will test with another weapon though.
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I am confused as to how this skill works. I was testing on some level 30ish Grineer with a Tigris. The sheet damage is ~ 17k/shot. My ability radius is ~21m. My listed damage multiplier is 3.5. I cast the ability and kill 3 or 4 with two shots from the Tigris. Then it detonates. MoBs within 6-10m of the explosion usually take under 1k in damage. The description led me to believe it would be 25% of the damage, but even ignoring the 3.5x bonus this isn't even close, even with damage diminishing over the distance. There were no obstacles in the way of any MoB.
I also tested on infested of about the same level with the same gear, and even though I would kill a few MoBs, the DoT was in the range of 200-400 damage/s after two shots. So that seems really low as well.
Inaros Sandstorm Range
in General
Posted
This. I have been mentioning this for over 8 months. It's a pretty big bug imo.