ArachnidOverlord
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Posts posted by ArachnidOverlord
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7 minutes ago, nslay said:
Well, first we need Stalker Mode and/or a popular Conclave to train the AI to beat Tenno.
DE's AI will only be as powerful as the training data (examples of how an AI should beat a Tenno). Or perhaps some kind of weird asymmetric self-training where the AI plays against itself as both a single Tenno and a collective squad of a faction? Or as a squad of 1-4 Tenno against a collective squad of a faction?
EDIT: Also DE should try to get the attention of academia and big AI powerhouses like DeepMind or Google to develop such an AI! But DE needs to tread carefully because this could be a rabbit hole (and AI is currently full of charlatans, frauds and crooks)!
I think it'd be really interesting to do this, all you have to do is give people a unique reward to face this enemy.
It could be an incredibly tough lone-unit that you face alone with either primary or melee weapon.
Powers would be allowed but offensive powers wouldn't work and slows, knockback, and stagger wouldn't work on it.
Whatever weapon you use it would use a similar version of. (You use a primary it'll use its special primary weapon but it'll be a potent one like an opticor, grattler or something else. If you use a melee weapon it'll use a heavy blade of its own)
And you would showdown in a small arena with a progressively more chaotic field as the opponents health depletes.
If it proves too difficult for the AI it can do true % damage to your health instead of conventional damage but only for the experiment to let the AI know if it's learning or not.
As the AI fails over and over the server could bump its stats, if it wins too much the server could respectively nerf its stats until a fair balance is found. -
1 hour ago, Ham_Grenabe said:
The kill team as written is just countercheese. It’s metagame design, not elite AI. It would be easier to disable any powers that affect enemies in Hard Mode and only allow abilities that affect self or allies.
"Countercheese" as you call it is critical because we all know that we can stunlock, ability lock and melee spam enemies to death preventing them from being able to do anything, and instant-killing them like everything else is too easy which is why they need to be tougher. Nullifier guns even on a slow fire rate gun would be really annoying though so the Manic Deadeye could probably just do lots of damage and be sneaky.
And the elite AI is where adaptive AI comes in or machine learning whatever it is, the abilities and unit itself are merely the tools the AI can use against the Tenno. DE can put the most efficient and adaptive AI in the world on a unit but if they just get nuked by CC or are put on a basic unit we fight all the time they're still useless.
DE could probably give a few adaptive AI a whole bunch of templates for different elite units and then put them up against each other in a sort of tournament to see what units are the most effective too, it'd be like using the way the program evolves but to figure out suitable units for teams. That way they might be able to make something that we can't just annihilate.
49 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:Change ability immunity to resistance, then we can talk about better AI.
Resistance would be even harder to make but yeah that'd be pretty neat. Damage abilities could still work but marginally. Abilities that move the unit couldn't work though because otherwise you can just get them stuck in place until they die like literally every other unit in the game.
Keep in mind that these kill teams would probably be small groups and be accompanied by a bunch of regular units so you can still use your abilities on the others but the elite kill teams are something you should need to focus on killing with your weapons rather than just pressing 4 and winning. -
28 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:
It became a numbers game long ago since players can beat any content in the game without any need to improve our aiming, moving and positioning skills as long as our numbers are bigger than our enemies and we have basic knowledge of how to make use of them (setting up builds, managing timers, knowing which damage type is better for each group of enemies, etc)
I think it would even be neat to see better AI, hell, bring in lots of units from the Black Seed and the Nighwatch for hard mode to fight along the normal units; then in Ultra Hard make these the average unit and release a group of Brokers and Executioners with them on Ultra Hard missions while at it.
With that said, a rebalance of player power (energy economy included) may be needed in order to add such difficulty, otherwise no matter how good is an AI, if we can still destroy enemy units before ever getting to see them or make them unable to fight back and keep them locked in such state long enough for them to not be a threat, the only change is that being 4 hours (or more) in a mission to reach that point isn't needed anymore.
Like I said with the manic kill teams they could be immune to warframe powers, knockback and stagger so you can't really cheese them without even seeing them, they'd force you to actually fight them. And they'd have a sort of different approach to how they're made like the Dreadnought Nox I suggested here originally would have shatterproof glass along with a very high fire rate grattler, the Warlock Guardian would have Kuva Guardian invulnerability only disabled by void dash or void strike and without actually dropping its staff allowing it to quickly recover its invulnerability, it could also teleport.
I think enemies can be brought to a point where they can actually efficiently deal with players no matter what they have available but in order to do this those specific enemies need to be well coordinated, immune to warframe abilities and probably a few other things. Maybe they need to have a damage cap (limit how much per hit/per second can be dealt) on their health pool too and deal a percentage of health as damage to players when they hit thus making them viable against most warframes short of those with invulnerability to which you'd need to give these new enemies nullifier guns which nobody likes dealing with but it's better than having all abilities nerfed into the ground -
Just now, Gabbynaru said:
Whatever the case may be, I'm still not willing to take the risk and potentially help create something we can't stop.
Plus, where's the fun in having self learning AI in a game when, considering the sample size it has to learn from, it will be better than each and all of us within a month.
Also keep in mind the strength of our equipment, if the AI proves far too powerful then we all know DE is just as capable of nerfing us as it is our newfound enemies.
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19 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:
You know what, I'd instantly drop the game if that happened. Not because of difficulty or anything, but because I don't want to support developing AI (and that's exactly what I'd do by playing a game that uses that, it'll learn from me and become better). Call me bigoted or whatever, I don't want anything to do with AI. They scare the living s*it out of me.
I'm afraid of it too, but at this point to stop it humanity would have to die out or go back to the dark ages.
If it's AI overlords that void us of all humanity that's how we go, we can die just as well to a meteor in space, a nuclear war, a terrible dictatorship and a million other very imposing things we're not ready for.
Like Einstein said human stupidity is perhaps even greater than the masses of this universe, if we were better we'd have underground agriculture and living spaces to survive cosmic radiation, (try to survive) supernovas, meteors and other things out there. If we were better we wouldn't have nukes pointing everywhich direction at each other. We wouldn't have to worry so much about pandemics because we'd have the CBRN suits, technology to fight it and people probably wouldn't have to go to the grocery stores or to work to transmit disease like we have to today.
If we were better there wouldn't have been 3 terrible dictators in WW2 to prove to us just how worthless 90 million lives are, all that waste for nothing.
We're hanging by a thread before many things, if we go back we're just a dead to the outer universe. Moving forward we may be more likely to destroy ourselves as a race but maybe we will survive and become something much greater as a species and actually start working together instead of starting wars and destroying each other. -
As the title says with the possibility of hard mode and ultra hard mode coming there comes the question of "Is warframe becoming a numbers game?" and the statement "The same enemy 100 levels stronger isn't much more interesting".
Well I think I have an idea, I've seen incredibly effective AI programs being used to complete tasks and coordinate attacks, if you had the extra time to see the capabilities of these AI in other games the videos are below. OpenAI five on dota 2 can efficiently defeat players in the highest tier of play. The Baritone AI on minecraft can efficiently hunt down players, this is a 3 dimensional game so it's a huge step forward.What could happen in warframe for high levels is to have dedicated kill-teams for every faction. They could coordinate attacks on objectives and players and use abilities not unlike kuva liches and index/rathuum enemies.
For grineer there could be manic kill teams, extremely fast, heavily armored(Railjack officer levels of health and armor), and with specific roles like:
1. The Manic Nox(or maybe named Dreadnought), unlike regular Nox units this one would have shatter proof glass on its armor, would possess a shield, is immune to all forms of knockback, stagger, warframe abilities and stealth attacks and carries a modified Grattler with an extremely high rate of fire.
Its abilities include effects that slow down the Tenno. A freeze damage response can apply a freeze proc to hostiles whom melee the Nox. Freeze-gas impact grenades that deal high damage and with a 30m radius and a 30 second cloud left behind. And it has a jetpack that allows it to launch forward at the Tenno much faster and farther than regular Nox while also allowing it to quickly regroup with the rest of its team.
2. Manic Staff-bearer (or maybe Warlock) It's a lot like a Kuva Guardian where it'll be invulnerable till you use operator dash or blast on it which will make it susceptible to damage for a short period of time but it doesn't drop its staff. It is also immune to knockback, stagger, warframe abilities and stealth attacks. Its staff used as a weapon fires explosive spheres that apply heavy toxin and slash damage with high status chance, it also can block melee attacks.
Its abilities include using a blast to throw back melee attackers (if knockback doesn't apply it still puts you in the high-fall animation), teleporting while also leaving a powerful explosion behind, and spawning in manic bombards and manic heavy gunners3. Manic Deadeye, it'd be a very buff Ballista with a generous amount of armor, shields and health, although not as tough as its fellow Dreadnought or Warlock it'd make good use of stealth abilities. Also unlike the Warlock and Dreadnought this one can be stealth-attacked but is still immune to knockback, stagger and warframe abilities. It wields a modified sniper that nullifies warframe abilities when hit, will ALWAYS hit, and does heavy damage of every type short of void and with no warning before being shot at.
Its abilities include invisibility except after taking a shot, being hit with impact damage or being hit by melee (it'll flicker out of and back into invisibility). It can also teleport like the Warlock to get a better position or to evade hostile Tenno, it will try to remain distant from Tenno at all times.
The rest of the team could be filled with manic bombards and heavy gunners, all very fast with more powerful weapons, stealth abilities and of course hauling masses of armor, health and a little bit of shields. Or there could be different classes that other people could come up with, a healer might be suitable but I don't want the whole team to be elusive because then they'd be even more annoying than worth fighting.-
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As the title says the Demolisher nox doesn't appear in the simulacrum despite it being scanned more than enough times.
The same applies for the demolisher heavy gunner and probably some other ones that I didn't keep track of.
The demolisher nox is incredibly tough and is great for determining weapon power at higher-levels, it definitely should be in the simulacrum because it is also very unique. -
Since corpus is all about money I think that maybe "Anyo" might be a suitable name in place of kuva because he is very high-standing in the corpus regime and would want his ownership to be spread about.
Just like how capitalist inventors put their last name on many of their discoveries or inventions.
Although he'd not invent anything he'd demand his inferiors refer to his likeness.
Anyo Exergis would be great because the Exergis could use that little extra "push".
Other primaries could be: Anyo Ferrox, Anyo Amprex, Anyo Plasmor and Anyo Penta.
A secondary could include the Anyo Sonicor but I don't know that many corpus secondaries. -
1 hour ago, Corvid said:
When are people going to remember that there's more to difficulty than the two extremes? Difficulty is a spectrum, not a binary state. Wanting the game to not be mindless does not mean wanting it to be over-the-top hardcore.
There is more to difficulty than two extremes. I gave lowest and highest examples to start because my difficulty thread was ignored anyways just like literally everything we post on these forums.
There could be varying difficulties. The higher difficulty you go the more rewards you get (more affinity and %boost to drops)
They'd obviously vary in levels like below
1-10
20-30
30-50
50-70
70-100
100-150
200-250Normal would give normal affinity and drops. Going higher would give up to 50-300% more drops and affinity depending on how high level.
Lower than normal would give less but normal could be the level that the specific map was already at.
And special events/alerts would have only normal and higher difficulties like arbitrations, kuva floods, nightmare missions and relics so you can't just cheese it on an easy level.
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In general the arbitration drones shouldn't be status immune because not only are they immune to one-shots completely due to toxin damage not working, but headshotting them is also not possible.
Also any shield-boosters can literally make the thing regenerate its shield fully before the next shot effectively making it invulnerable if you don't have a fast enough weapon.
It's really annoying because there are times where you literally can't kill it just like when the mutalist moa buffs it too.
You can't kill the ones giving the buffs to these drones because they're invulnerable from the drone so it's a really stupid vicious cycle. -
Viral may be good as it stands but try it against level 100+ grineer officers without any arcane/frame buffs. It's what I test on to see what viable weapons I have.
I think that the other statuses need to be buffed.
Gas was beaten into a pulp for no reason, it was fine as it was because it wasn't game-breaking most of the time, slash was almost always better. Gas needs to be brought back up because pre-nerf it still struggled against armored targets, it was seldom good at everything.
Magnetic is still trash, it should altogether negate shield gating as part of its effect (against enemies not tenno). Otherwise what's the point of a little extra damage against a shield you instantly break?
Corrosive needs to be brought back up to what it was or at least a bit more than its current state (maybe 90-95% armor reduction). 20% armor left can still leave enemies with a very annoying amount of damage resistance once you get high enough in levels/base scaling.
The warframe community seems to always have the darks souls-type people arguing with the power fantasy people.
Which is why this game needs difficulty scaling from low levels like 15-20 all the way up to 200-250 before starting a match.-
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I'm hoping for weapons that can efficiently kill level 100 officers... Reason being is I need to rely on weapons without buffs in order for my frame to be tough enough.
I like the sound of a Kuva Buzlok as the damage is there but it just needs a bit more power, persay more crit damage and multiplier.
I'd also like to see a single-loaded kuva sniper so we can make good use of Primed Chamber.
Due to its slow nature it could be incredibly strong in all grounds, hitscan, status, crit chance, crit damage and base damage.
It'd also make Arcane Pistoleer another friend for those crazy enough to WMD the entire area lol
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As the title says the Belenus, Void lasers you can activate instantly kill the defense target just as it instantly kills players.
It is one of the strongest griefing tools in the game to ruin everybody else's experience by failing the mission instantly.
In general these things should be removed.
If not in normal definitely in arbitrations because you don't go down in arbitrations you just die so that gives scummy teammates the ability to knock you out of the game or fail the entire mission for their own enjoyment. -
7 minutes ago, Oreades said:
Affinity is already based on enemy level is it not? So the affinity is naturally going to scale. As for other rewards, I personally don't believe in scaling rewards because it will encourage the community to self segregate even harder than by simply having the option to fight higher level enemies out of the gate.
Challenge should be IMHO it's own reward.
I think it's based on level but more xp is always good if we can get it.
It probably isn't good to get the community to separate I guess but I figure the community is big enough that it probably wouldn't be that bad.
I don't really get what your concerns with segregation are though, do you mean for finding other players in public matches?For void relic farming I totally understand because you need 4 players to increase your chances of getting something good.
On special missions like that though I think they could have 2 choices of difficulty the first choice is the difficulty based off of the standard level for that place, the second difficulty being umbral (Level 180-250 with 250% rewards and affinity, special new elite enemies, spawn rate to rival sanctuary onslaught and the map is trying to murder you at all times.) for those who really want to roll face on keyboard.
And I guess the same for all special missions, you can't per say have any lower than what their current difficulty level area is but you can go higher.
All higher choices should be available on ones you don't need 4 teammates on at all times, like arbitrations, kuva siphons, kuva floods, nightmare missions etc.
As an example for a siphon you can't choose lower than normal but you can choose hard, extreme and umbral for the extra kuva and other stuff.
For arbitrations you can't choose lower than hard but you can choose extreme and umbral.
Two missions I'd really like to see available to these higher difficulties for respectively higher gains would be the kuva survival and kuva disruption because I can deal with level 180-250 enemies, they're just pretty tough and actually threatening. -
I've been seeing talk of variable difficulty based on player choice in warframe and I think it's a brilliant way to satisfy both the power-hungry like myself and the challenge seekers.
To jump right into it I think the obvious, that difficulty should determine rewards, affinity, enemy level and perhaps how the map interacts with the player.
And for difficulties we could have things like:
Easy: Level 10-25 and you get rewards and affinity at 50% of what you'd normally get in this map. This would allow new players to work their way around the star chart with ease and root themselves into warframe.Normal: Level 30-45 with 100% (current) rewards and affinity.
Hard: Level 50-75 with 150% rewards and affinity. Enemies may spawn more frequently and the map may act more aggressively towards the player.Extreme: Level 90-125 with 200% rewards and affinity. Enemy spawning and map aggression perhaps cranked even more.
Umbral: Level 180-250 with 250% rewards and affinity, special new elite enemies, spawn rate to rival sanctuary onslaught and the map is trying to murder you at all times.
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Even as the host of a squad every time I tried to transference in the last game it just didn't work. And having to walk up to something to get your operator killed so you can move back in is really stupid.
I think it might have some relation to magus lockdown or something but I'm not sure.
Also not being able to transference in around nullifiers is also really bad because it locks you out of your warframe, I understand not being able to transference out but the other way around is just bad. -
Rebecca says and shows otherwise in the devstream (link and timestamps below). Which is curious, because that might mean they didn't remember to put that in the patch notes. Either that or they decided not to go through with it.
Considering that I'm getting mixed messages means there's a fair share of uncertainty here which is good because it means that being able to apply new elementals to kuva weapons may still indeed be possible.
I think I'll have to check myself to see, hopefully we can do these new combos and it's here to stay, it'd make kuva weapons even more powerful.Check 48:31-50:01 of the inserted video
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The other post made by someone else wasn't clear enough with explaining the question and was open for misinterpretation. I want to make sure that this is answered correctly because having certain elemental combinations can make a massive difference in warframe. I fully intend on grinding towards these if I can get certain base elemental stats like viral as a base 60%
Pretty straight forward, we know we can get radiation, cold, toxin, impact, heat, magnetic and electric damage on kuva weapons right away.
But with valence fusion it introduces the possibility to mix two separate elemental effects together.
My question is, does valence fusion allow us to mix elements into ones we can't get straight away? Like per say viral, corrosive, blast, or gas?
I'm talking BASE ELEMENTAL STATS, the up to 60% bonus you get starting out.If we can get these special elemental combinations starting out it paves the way for viral + corrosive kuva weapons.
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Hopefully this is just a bug and it gets fixed but anyways to better explain:
The phage at 100% status chance will only proc as though 1 beam is hitting even if all the beams or only 1 are hitting.
And multishot will not increase the rate of status effects for this weapon past 100%
So at 100% status chance the only way to make the phage inflict procs faster is to increase its rate of fire. Forget about it being a shotgun because it doesn't work like one and its niche becomes even more of a hindrance because it doesn't proc like one would hope.
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3 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:
Well... like I said, it's not ideal. All we can do is deal with it and find the ways that work.
They're getting the results they want in forcing players to use different builds, but the methodology obviously restricts our freedom overmuch.
I think it's a bit paranoid to assume they'll just nerf what works until nothing works, though.
I probably don't give them enough credit either. They're smarter then this to make everything useless. Unless they make it a temporary power system where a weapon is good at release then they release a new weapon and nerf the old one so you're forced to get the new one to be relevant which would keep cash flowing to their pockets.
But DE isn't EA or take-two... yet.
It is likely paranoid. But it is also a possibility and if one decided it were necessary no matter how stupid it can come to fruition.
It sounds ridiculous what I said "But yes I can easily kill them until they nerf every high level weapon because they say they're used too much." but there's many ways to manipulate a game to force money out of your player base. Rockstar games' GTA for example is a pay-to-win arms race where they release new stuff over and over that always makes older stuff irrelevant. The new stuff always needs a new business or building to get which costs millions just for the building then millions more to get what you want which translates to over a hundred dollars of real money not including the amount of money initially paid to buy the stupid game. And they make loads of money screwing people around like this their playerbase lets them abuse them and it makes things bad for the gamers who won't put up with that garbage because now it's expected and forced on everyone. Either huge grind that takes days of agony or pay huge amounts of money into a game that manipulates you to keep paying more.
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7 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:
It gives you a reason to care about one build over another, which then encourages you to use that other build. I'm not defending it as the right way to design the game and encourage variety, but... you do have options here. It's just one where you have to choose based on what can actually kill your target, rather than choosing by HOW you want to kill.
If you go for the corrosive+heat build, then this one target will cause you problems. Others won't.
If you go for a viral+slash build as I did, then none of them will cause you problems, and you'll be able to handle that special target easier.
It works. It's just not ideal.
Also: you can equip two guns and a melee weapon, plus your companion can proc status if you build for it. So... play with that. There are multiple ways to proc the status effects you want.
It's not just this "one" target though, it's important that we also keep in mind kuva liches and demolyst juggernauts. Both are fairly recent additions, which proves that aura armor is going to likely become a common problem to deal with.
If I've said that I only use one means of killing then I didn't mean to. I have a chakkhurr that doesn't even need viral to wreck things with hunter munitions. I try to give a role to each one of my weapons. Chakkhurr for range, fast fire rate (+90% mod) and slash. Brakk for armor stripping, maybe viral in the future too because kuva weapons can corrode and inflict viral if you get toxin I believe. Redeemer for mid to close range gas damage 100% status ridiculously high crit (riven and umbral crit), brakk is sort of a means of heavily reducing armor and buffing condition overload before the redeemer destroys for very high-levels. But generally redeemer can hold its own without brakk.
Back on track though. The BIG thing here is reducing the amount of ways to deal with something. Because we know DE will nerf something if there's not enough variety. And here they are removing variety to killing by adding stuff like officers and kuva liches with their aura armor.
It can also turn into aura health, aura shield and other nonsense that status effects don't work against. This is just the beginning.
To be fair though I'd rather aura health that is immune to viral or aura shields that are immune to magnetic as opposed to 11 MILLION EHP on a level 90.
But yes I can easily kill them until they nerf every high level weapon because they say they're used too much.
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The way I look at it is that if the chances of getting an umbral forma is so low that it can vary from grinding for a week to 6 months depending on how lucky you are then there's a problem.
DE advertised in the patch notes that you can earn these but in reality the chances of getting them is so incredibly low it's not even worth considering unless you're insane enough to waste days to months at a time for a single forma that can slightly enhance a single weapon or frame. At least nightwave is guaranteed, if anything it's probably faster with how rarely I see anybody posting how they received a blueprint for one.
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Typically with heavy-hitters all you have to do is point and shoot and if it one-shots them you're not waiting for any sort of wind-up of spamming light attacks or dumping a mag into them.
I main inaros too so I focus on having the best possible weapons because my frame cannot improve their abilities except with the fact that the enemy has a hell of a time killing me.
3 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:Well, it seems to me that this is DE trying to encourage variety in building.
Officers aura armor removing the ability to use corrosive or heat effectively against a target that otherwise would be quite easy to take down does not promote variety. It does the opposite by forcing players into other options. Less then before.
It's like saying you have three options but you can't use one of them at all and somehow you have more options then before. You don't.
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3 hours ago, taiiat said:
past that, ofcourse the general rule is always that if you have fully stripped the Armor of an Enemy with your Weapons, you have done something wrong as you were underperforming in your Damage capabilities vs said Enemy. an Armored Enemy should always die before their Armor is completely removed elsewise you could have Killed them faster if you had opted to have some more Damage.
but that's just a sidenote to the situation.Well not only can you not strip their armor but you also can't even reduce their armor. In my case I have a kuva brakk devoted solely to removing armor and applying a bunch of status for my redeemer to nuke them. Generally speaking though my redeemer can 1 shot most enemies unless they're armored up to a very high level.
I've put so many rounds of my kuva brakk into the officers without even seeing an increase to damage. In about 3-4 shots it'll strip the armor off of even level 300 some index enemies.
My redeemer does millions of damage in its heavy attack but we all know it's getting nerfed soon so "more damage" is an issue when DE powercreeps the enemies they release without actually increasing their level to the point where they have, again, 11,338,046 effective health.
11 MILLION health at only level 90 in a game where we're seldom given proper primary and secondary weapons for dealing with a level of nonsense this high AND the good weapons get nerfed for being too powerful *coughs in catchmoon and constant disposition changes* is problematic.
The more sponging garbage gets added into the game the more people have to search for the right tools. When someone is forced to use few weapons to deal with the problem they get nerfed for said weapons being used too often because the highest level of play is ignored for newcomers who deal with low levels and trash enemies.
Ideas for elite openAI kill teams for high-level play
in General Discussion
Posted
"Right, what I’m saying is that your proposal relies entirely on ability immunity."
"This proposal could be done tomorrow: make normal enemies both immune to power effects and able to nullify nearby frames, and everything is Hard Mode."
That's not all I've said, I put a lot down although a lot of it's existing stuff just heavily enhanced.
Immunity/heavy resistance to offensive abilities is ideal, yes, but not nullifying nearby frames I take back my saying of the Deadeye being able to nullify lol. I've always hated nullifiers and they'd probably be fine just immune to offensive abilities.