(PSN)felsager
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Posts posted by (PSN)felsager
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PVP is a way to measure your skills and comprehension about modding.
PVP is not the main purpose of this game and never will. If you want a good PVP game then Overwatch is your game or Battlefront 2.
PVP in here is a good addition and alternative if you want to test your skills. Lunaro is an alternative if you don't want to deal with a kill/death ratio.
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6 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:
Hi, I'm 12 years old.
Probably, but...
DE visions of the game is now heading towards Plains of Eidolon. They want to compete against other markets inserting the small open world. We know that games like Anthem and Destiny 2 are going to deal a large portion of exploration, farming and grinding. DE, an indie developer, managed to establish a market successfully but such market can't progress if there is no current trend in the game. DE does this by introducing weapons, Warframes and new tile sets. Their goal now is to compete directly with other contenders that has almost endless resources like BioWare and Bungie.
Warframe is a game that grew up adding layers of information and game structures. Right now balancing 49 warframes and more than 380 weapons is an impossible task. DE did the right thing by constantly renewing and betting on their platinum system. Their conception of 'freemium' was well implemented on a game of "grinding" and "farming". Yes, their game was a complete success and their constant experimentation with "pokemon" like avatars gave them a rare genre.
Everybody here will have a hard time trying to explain this game because the genre is very hard to categorize. I don't want to derail DE intentions or make the game a clone of other experiences available in the market. DE knows as we do that we have games like COD, Battlefront, Killzone, Star Citizen 42, Dreadnought, Elite Dangerous, Horizon Zero among other. Each one does their thing an a satisfactory way. I don't want to pigeonhole a system that seems to be very successful being reduced into five Classes. I want to see immersible elements on the game. First person view could be an alternative and so how we handle heavy weapons.
This approach is a preference that doesn't destroy the game at all. DE doesn't need to satisfy every caprice each user has. It's unwise to do so. However the market pushes you to take decisions that are risky. If your company always stays on a comfort zone that company likely will survive but will stay small. Warframe is a PC game and it should continue with the policies of being a PC game. I don't want them to fall into the abyss of a commercial games like the other generic FPS out there. On the other hand DE came to make money. Every company needs to stay solvent economically or simply close their doors. Warframe is not going to live forever. It needs renewal and the possibility to attract new clients into their experience.
Games like CoD makes billions despite the popular trendy hate it has. Other successes like Horizon Zero Dawn proved that a new formula can be successful too. Should we want Warframe to grow and adapt to current trends? Or do we want Warframe stay in a perpetual Beta without taking any mayor decision due to the low personnel in Digital Extremes? These Canadians made a great concept, like a hit song, but can it last few more years if the game continues adding prime frames, prime weapons and some cards? What is the vision of DE about this game after all these four years?
Maybe a Class system is not the solution. Nothing was lost arguing about the possibility or impossibility of the concept. Looks like a change in the current system must be done carefully without harming the core. In my opinion classes could work if they are implemented and defined specifically to this game. This is just a point of view. No one here wants to throw away the good attributes on a good game like this.
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11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:
I hope you did enjoy my posts in this topic. Each one contained statements that showed some flaws in your ideas. You should have took them as helpful advice as it was meant instead of ignoring them as you have done with everyone in this topic. Heck, I even told you exactly how Warframes would be considered if they were a real military unit.
Ideas are far from perfect. I never expected to land a precise idea where everybody agrees with it. The probability of such event is slim. In architecture, engineering, programming, game design, etc we tests ideas and develop those with some sort of success or public agreement.
I name my louadouts with a CLASS nomenclature. Would be nice if I can arrange my warframes in those names I gave. That's how I try to organize my approach on this game.
11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:Why not add FPV you say? Because the Devs already said multiple times in Devstreams that it would not happen. So why don't you move away from this idea just as you said in the quote above. That's both of your ideas that just are not going to happen. That's 6 full pages of basically everyone telling you this, but yet you still seem to not accept the simple truth of this.
I already did the research and wanted to discuss the topic despite DE opinion on the subject.
Besides, you can't tell me what to do, say or think.
11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:Now seriously think about this. Go back and re-read these past 6 pages and really take in what everyone is telling you. Make adjustments to your ideas while also removing the ones that just are not going to happen.
Don't put your ideas out for public consumption if you aren't ready to have them critiqued. I think everyone has been fairly nice with their critiques than is usually expected.
1. The feedback happened.
2. I was ready for the critiques. This is the objective of forums, debate sketches and dispatch or modify them according to a GENERAL CONSENSUS.
3. I don't expect them to be nice. I don't expect anyone to be nice or condescending. I'm fine if they provided validity and specific details.
11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:I had thought about blasting you in my reply.
Instead I decided to pity you.
I invite you to try. Please, try.
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If she retains her powers but makes me have more skill to keep the team alive, PLEASE BRING IT.
I'm an expert using healers and support classes in many of these games. Nerfing them is not fair for practitioners like us who enjoy playing for the team.
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2 minutes ago, Alcoholism said:
Not sure what this thread is supposed to be for.
Are you asking players a question about the game because you need help/advice? Then it should be in the "players asking players" section.
If it's just a thread though for evoking discussion about how players play the game then it's in the right section. However try not to use the "megathread" tag as it should be used by DE when a thread is quite large/important and/or threads have been merged to keep things neat and tidy.True.
A mega thread is a name reserved for a great thread that helps players, classify information that is unclassified, keep record of updates (a thread attended this subject), provides organized lists of youtube links or establish a scheme that could help DE develop their game.
Mega threads happens as a service to the community with an important subject. This subject is more about a general discussion.
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7 hours ago, (Xbox One)YungCoyote said:
I'm really quite mad that because I didn't play yesterday and my mastery rank bar goes back down. I don't even want to play anymore because of it. Really hurts the game and honestly makes the devs look stupid. Fair well warframe
Is this classical trolling? Why you bait like this?
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36 minutes ago, xik4 said:
How do you get ready to play?
Start the game as usual on my PS4 or PC.
36 minutes ago, xik4 said:Do you have a ritual you do?
Turning on the PC or the PS4...:3
36 minutes ago, xik4 said:Or, do you just jump in?
Rarely I play with friends. I go with randoms on raids almost all the time.
36 minutes ago, xik4 said:Maybe you set up the background music then put gear on -- and things like that?
The music of the game is quite good.
36 minutes ago, xik4 said:What is it you do before you play?
Play few rounds in Overwatch and Hunt few mech bots in Horizon Zero.
36 minutes ago, xik4 said:Are you always logged in?
Just an hour. I do my LOR, LOR NM and JV daily.
36 minutes ago, xik4 said:Do you have big or small downtime from the game?
When I get bored, my goal is to put six or seven formas on a heavy weapon build.
36 minutes ago, xik4 said:I am "in search of" what needs to get done beside just logging in and playing?
Get coffee.
36 minutes ago, xik4 said:So what do you do and or what do you recommend that I would do before logging onto warframe?
Play SONIC THE HEDGEHOG....:P
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3 hours ago, ShakeyMac said:
OP this idea is terrible. Classes in Warframe would add nothing and result in needlessly restricted playstyles. I could go on but others have said what needs to be said already. Let it go.
Ideas needs to be tested.
I don't give up on mine. Why should I? Warframe is a game that could grow in many areas. Why not add FPV, better weapons and strategy without sacrificing the system we have now?
If classes are not the path DE wants, I don't mind moving away from this idea. Other games will provide what this can't provide. Simple as that.
I prefer an FPS options, heavy weapons, guns emplacements, and perks over the platitudes of Fashion Frame. The game doesn't turn generic by adding FPS as many suggests. With Fashion Frame I don't improve my game play at all.
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6 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:
Because it's sometimes entertaining to see ignorance in written form.
I enjoyed yours.
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On 8/24/2017 at 5:25 AM, (PS4)remo_yesman said:
The hosts have the option to kick other players out of their match..
I would never kick someone because of their Mastery rank, but I would kick all Hydroid, Limbo, Ember, an Sometimes Equinox users out of my def missions. I dont hate these frames, but Im not a big fan of world on fire on weak mobbs, I always get Limbo users that dont know how to use him, players always spam Hydroids Ult and the match takes way longer, Alot of times I get equinox users focus farming when everyone else is xp farming, oh an I would kick non augment zephyr users..
Sometimes I want to Host 40 min T4 survival were if you wanna come you gtta have a melee weapon only equipt, an theres always 1 guy that joins that doesnt wanna equipt melee only, or he would spawn it with weapons equipt at the last sec, an just fk everything up.. If I could set requirements, that would be great.
Some ppl might say oh you just wanna control ppls playstyle, thats just your opion (but kinda)
Modifiers are fun.. Im from Unreal Tournament.. Imagine Warframe with conclave instagib rifles lol..
We don't want Warframe becomes a cesspool of pure toxicity like Destiny adding a kick option in mid game.
You can play solo, only with friends or recruit according to your standards. Once the squad is formed then you have the option to disband and recall leaving out the problematic cases.
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10 hours ago, NightBlitz said:
the way i see it, after reading through this whole darn thread, is that half of what you really want is some sort of fps mode added to the game.
that will never happen, the Devs have made this clear.
I'm aware of what the Devs said already about the first person shooter approach. There are many games like Battlefront 2, Star Citizen 42 and Overwatch that provides exactly what I want.
Warframe must generalize and improve further on these "MODULES" of game play. Otherwise the game will slowly become irrelevant. It will be substituted by other experiences that gathers all these approaches.
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10 hours ago, torint_man said:
"Military frames" is generic to the extreme. Infiltrators, spies and reconnaissance are basically the same thing.
This is a new topic on warframe despite that we have seen it in other games. Sorry, but infiltrator, demolition, reconnaissance, etc are not the same. You need to read.
10 hours ago, torint_man said:Anyways, once focus gets reworked to be actually good and balanced, we'll get a class system. Zenurik would be the caster class, Unairu the tank class, Vazarin the support class, Naramon the stealth class, and Madurai the offensive class. Focus is purely additive in the grand scheme of things, so as such, isn't limiting.
That's exactly the idea. Finally someone got it right.
The Class system is IMPLICITLY implemented in the focus schools. So all boils to add FPV to TPV implementation, some weapon advantages and more parkour.
"With your system, the game chooses for you."
But it doesn't limit to that. You can choose your class and your approach to the game. Warframes gets pluses in game play, weapon handling and few other advantages, any warframe.
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11 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:
This topic has devolved into beating a horse that was already D.O.A.
Then why you bothered to enter the thread?
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4 hours ago, Marthrym said:
They designed a game for third person gameplay, and mostly only for third person gameplay. It's been a third person game since its beta release, over 5 years ago. The devs have made themselves clear. Repeatedly. Outside of scopes and scanners, they have no plans, or desire for that matter, to cater to that type of gameplay.
Third person gives a lot more situational awareness than first person, especially in a game like Warframe. Much wider angle of vision, you can see exactly where and on what you're standing, and you can litteraly see if someone or something is creeping up behind you.
We don't know what is in DE's mind.
4 hours ago, Marthrym said:They're really not, as the past 5 years have shown.
DE is extricating themselves from the possibility of an FPV. The niche population that follows this game has to grow. Otherwise will be stuck seeing dull primes of previous frames, rivens, few filler weapons, and weapon priming of old kits.
I think five years is ENOUGH.
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1 hour ago, Marthrym said:
I wasn't there when it devolved. Sorry... evolved.
1. Why? Why would we need that? Why not put in the game for everyone, period?
2. Again, no. This LIMITS loadout options. A concept you seem to have a real hard time wrapping your head around.
3. Worst of the 3 "options", by a landslide. I can't even begin to understand why this is even mentioned as "option".
Number 3 is a devolution and a downgrade. I'm not convinced of it. Number 2 is not even a realistic option. I'll continue arguing for number 1.
The tenno focus school is some sort of a "perk" and a "class system" However the effects are on the enemy and a benefit on your shields and attack strength.
The tenno CLASS, our proposal, behaves as a "perk" on weapons, game play and style. The warframe is not going to be downgraded. On the contrary he will have a FPV and TPV switch, increased library of moves and some other benefits depending on that class assigned on the tenno.
1 hour ago, Marthrym said:Except this is not a good idea. And you did use irrelevant examples of completely different games, with completely different design philosophies to try and "advertise" said idea as a "good" one. That's not what feedback is FYI.
These are examples. I wrote direct examples on the previous post speaking about the game assets on Warframe. Read them. We all agree that Overwatch, Horizon Zero, Destiny 2, Battlefront 2 are games with another scope. Feedback happens when we speak about the warframe universe alone. Ideas are transmigrated from other games. It happens, we are not in a deep blue sea where warframe is the only game. We inevitably use references.
1 hour ago, Marthrym said:Where did I say your design limited "the potential of the game"? I stated that it imposed pointless, unneeded limiations to the range of gameplay options any player can have at any time. That's our potential, the players'. Because again, your "design" does impose limitations. Using Overwatch as a comparison material makes no sense. This is not a valid comparison to make between these two games because they are far too different in their design philosophies, mechanics, and purposes themselves to make such a comparison in the first place. And stop it with CoD. IRRELEVANT.
Adding classes doesn't gimp Mesa, Rhino or Trinity. Classes doesn't restricts the movements on these frames. You add a new layer of game play similar to what the focus schools did. Warframe is a game that increases game play complexity with different layers. Up to now we have the card game, the four supers, the parkour on the warframe and the combinations of three wheapons (Primary, secondary and close combat). Classes will add another layer of information to the game.
The philosophy of adding a class, particularize one player over the other. I am more of a heavy weapon wielder. I'm not a spy or stealth player. I attack the enemy directly. If there is no direct confrontation, with the enemy then i'm not interested. Other players can perform other tasks. You do not cut the potential of other items by assigning one class on your scheme. This is how you play it.
1 hour ago, Marthrym said:Please, PLEASE tell me you see how you just utterly destroyed your whole "design" with this very sentence...
There is something called honesty.
At the same time, warframe DOESN'T HAVE a FPV to TPV switch. I would like to see that on warframe among many other things.
1 hour ago, Marthrym said:I see where the problem lies now. You have absolutely no idea what the word class means! That or you used it in the single worst possible manner to talk about something completely unrelated to what the class system is in every other game in history.
We are defining the term. It doesn't behave the same it behaves in Call of Duty, Destiny, Battlefront 2, Arma III, etc. The term needs an interpretation. It doesn't mean that I don't know what it is all about.
In Architecture, the profession I study, we need to establish a problem and select concepts from precedents. We select these precedents where their conditions are the nearest to our problem. In here we selected Class as a precedent and we are working over it. Maybe we need to define a new term or use that in the meantime.
1 hour ago, Marthrym said:This clarifies a lot of things. Now we're finally going somewhere.
Basically you just want players to be able to do more stuff. THEN WHY NOT JUST WORD IT LIKE THIS INSTEAD? Seriously! Just say "hey it would be cool if we could do this and that in Warframe!". That's it. THAT'S IT. Not "hey let's use the class system from this game, and that game, and that other game, except not at all!" in the most unrelated and confusing way ever!
This discussion is for the DESIGN and specification of a concept. Maybe CLASS is misleading but we have to start somewhere. I am not copy pasting ideas from other games. We want to make the WARFRAME SYSTEM deeper and interesting for a greater diverse of players. We are in a niche stage. We want to add new players, increase sales and improve the system WITHOUT LOOSING all the previous traits we have in the game.
So yes, design is a tedious process of testing and surveying.
1 hour ago, Marthrym said:Then WHY use the word CLASS? It's a VERY specific word, with a very SPECIFIC meaning. It's like you did on purpose just to troll! And again, you're confusing me, what with this idea of adding it to SPECIFIC frames! You're back to what classes are! God, make up your mind! Stop saying one thing to then say the opposite like they're one and the same! They're not the same thing! Either you want something new that isn't tied to any frame or weapon, like the Focus system, which I am fine with since it doesn't limit options, or you want it tied to specific frames or gear, which basically is what a class is!
Let me clarify this:
I want warframe to stay warframe. If I want to play a strict FPS I simply pick up one of these game and play. For me warframe is an intersting game because it allows endless combinations of styles, approaches and procedures. A "CLASS system" similar to the "FOCUS" system adds an extra layer. As you have five schools, you have five classes. Maybe the whole class system can simply be integrated with the focus system. It doesn't make the game FPS and it doesn't turn the whole thing into a generic copy of other commercial fps out there.
Have some patience. A debate could be extremely annoying but we have to go through the preconceptions. Once we all understand the idea then we move forward leaving behind the "class" name and change it for another word. I know that the word is tainted with these generic fps iterations. Warframe is not a trendy product but if we want it to grow, stay and improve we have to generalize it. Up to now DE is progressing slowly at a good steady rate. They don't try to be trendy but at the same time they don't want to fall behind.
1 hour ago, Marthrym said:This has nothing to do with classes, it's just pointlessly tedious, tacked on mechanics that could be used without ANY of said pointless hassle. You have no idea what "class" means, that much is obvious, but still seem to badly want to add mechanics that could be interesting, except you want them to be implemented in a rather peculiar, tedious, pointless fashion, when they could very well be made readily and easily available to everyone without any of that mess.
See?
I do know what a class is.
Do you know what a proposal is? We have to give an example. Why not you provide an example other than saying "no", "irrelevant" or "pointless". A proposition is a bet, a gambit and a risk. I came here knowing that such debate is going to be harsh. If this where so easy, I don't even spend a second arguing with you. This requires patience. If you don't have it then you have a choice, skip the thread and carry on farming your primes and your rivens.
Simple.
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1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:
Ah, okay. Thanks for elaborating. 4 and 5 sound pretty generic. They remind me of the perks from the Borderlands skill trees; plus, you can get the same effect with rivens. But some of these are pretty interesting (1, 3, 6). I'd be interested in seeing these maybe being looked at. But, I have to say, classes are still restriction by definition, even under your proposed framework. If you give one class the ability to see through walls, then you are restricting other classes from that perk. Depending on how much these classes impact gameplay and choice, a player could feel locked out of a playstyle they want because their other choices don't allow it. Even if you only add abilities and don't directly place restrictions, the act of creating classes creates restriction by nature.
This makes perfect sense.
Remember when we pick up a frame we make decisions on our playstyle. We simply agree when we choose a frame in particular. Classes for better or worst is a decision you make and a compromise. If I choose EV trinity over slow nova I'm choosing some limiting parameters and game conditions that I'm going to produce with a crowd control frame like slow nova or energy vampire trinity who farms energy out of the enemy. Those are two different approach to the same game.
My ev trinity blesses and cares for the team, while my slow nova is just a lone wolf soldier slowing down the damage per second rate of the enemy. I had to make restriction on my playstyles by the mere fact of choosing one frame over the other. This never downgraded my EV or my Slow Nova. It helped my value each trait and attribute I searched in each frame.
True, in that list 4 and 5 are seen many times. We could redefine those. Eq
1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:Ooohhhhhhhhhh. Okay. Now it's actually clear to me what you want, and why. Okay.
Yeah, I can get this. Battlefield adaptation of tactics would be an interesting mechanic to implement (as long as it were optional) (side note: this is actually kind of what I was hoping the gameplay experience with Equinox to be like, but it's not very well-developed for this purpose as far as I can tell). I could get behind this.
However, I still don't see the advantage of first person in this situation. I don't see how it improves accuracy – in the current third-person view, your bullets still hit the centre of the reticle, unless your accuracy is gimped by Heavy Calibre or something. I guess I wouldn't be opposed, necessarily, to its addition, were it free, but I think the personnel and time cost would be irresponsible, as I can't really see any reason for it (the first-person view specifically, not the tactical adaptation element).
Equinox is a very complex warframe. Only the few comprehends her day and night capabilities. I think DE made an outstanding job with Equinox to be honest. Trinity was another great warframe. We are aware that some warframe are incredibly interesting and way too complex because these demands a deeper comprehension of the game. If we choose a frame that represents warframe universe, well it's Equinox.
Sadly I never spent time evolving my equinox. I'll revisit her soon.
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7 minutes ago, Dwolfknight said:
I couldn't play the part of devils advocate here even if I tried, You keep flip flopping your opinions, on one post it's "just a suggestion" and on another that is how it's supposed to be, you are only prolonging a by now meaningless thread, since it's just you replying the same 2 options to different people that are saying the same stuff.
According to you. Yes, suggestions turns into ideas. We debate those. Remember not everybody reads the same comments so some ideas repeats.
Stick to one of your choices, if it is just a suggestion then don't cling to it, if you really want this in game, well, you are not getting it (at least not in the next 2 years).
Here is a bit of number to show why it's a bad idea.Sorry but you are in no position to tell me what to do. If you don't like the thread, simply leave. If you want to add your suggestions or ideas then do so. Choose.
Let's assume that from all warframes only 6 will be classified as able to use the first person mode, let's also be optimistic and say that all warframes are used on an equal split meaning that these 6 warframes are used ~18% of the time. Let's also be optimistic and say that 60% of the people that use these frames also use the appropriate weapons, that is 0.60*0.18 that is ~10% of players. Let's also say that they use the first person mode around 50% of the time that is 0.50*0*10 which means that only this mode will only see 5% use, this with very optimistic numbers. Do you think that anyone in their right of mind would make something that only 5% of people would use?
Now you know what other stuff has under 5% use? Trials, that is why we only have 2, PVP, that is why it hasn't been expanded yet, Archwing, it's been quite some time we don't have more archwing content.
In simpler words, even if we got it, it would be discontinued after no one cares.
Everyone heard yours and voiced their opinions, No, we don't want classes for Warframes, we don't want this game to be more similar to Overwatch or Battlefront or any other first person shooter or any combination of all of them. That is why we are playing Warframe and not them.
This argument is becoming needlessly heated.
Yes, that is is you, speak for yourself. Again if you don't want classes then leave the thread. I heard your opinion once.
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26 minutes ago, Marthrym said:
Are we talking frames or Focus schools here? You specifically mentioned frames in your OP. And frames only. If you want to go into Focus schools, we can, but this is an entirely different debate, covering entirely different mechanics and parts of the game. Using it as an argument in favor of classes for frames seems extremely misguided and I would even go so far as to say... disingenuous.
Original idea evolved throughout the discussion.
There are three options.
1. Classes could be assigned to tenno.
2. Classes could be assigned to some particular gear
3. A new warframe could be a class on that warframe alone.
We are not asking for be ingenious or disingenuous. It's not a debate about wits, This is a debate about the better design idea. I am not trying to leave the idea behind. Why should I? This is a feedback discussion, see?
26 minutes ago, Marthrym said:Overwatch? How is Warframe, a third person cooperative PvE oriented horde shooter, the same as Overwatch, a competitive team vs team PvP oriented game? Might as well say "hey, this game is like any game with melee weapons, I can test lots of swords and other pointy and bludgeonny things to kill stuff!", or "Warframe is like any shooter out there because I use guns to shoot at stuff!". I mean come on! Really? Overwatch has heroes with specific skillsets, specific roles. Of course frames can do much more than them! They were DESIGNED to in the first place! That's the whole point of the game! Play with whatever frame you want, with whatever loadout you want, whichever way you want! Why are you so hellbent on taking that away? I don't understand! I want to understand but I just can't! It makes no damn sense to me!
My design DOESN'T limit the potential of the game. Overwatch was used as a comparison. We don't want to turn Warframe into Destiny or Call of Duty. We have greener and Corpus. These uses military approaches to deal with the problems. Classes are not restriction. Classes in COD are designed for restricted roles. That is the whole purpose of that game. Warframe has the freedom to choose, set, define and select your loadout.
26 minutes ago, Marthrym said:See previous paragraph. What does that have to do with Battlefront 2? Or CoD? That's exactly the point! They are not similar! Where the hell are you going with all these references? You're just trying to jam in utterly irrelevant examples into the discussion to make your case! Why?
Because these are immediate comparisons. The concept we are using is the CLASS. Those games will happen in the discussion. When you bring a concept people will bring the references and the precedent. Discussions happens like that.
26 minutes ago, Marthrym said:RESTRICTIONS ARE EXACTLY THE POINT OF CLASSES. Classes give you specific attributes. NOT extra ones. They promote using several classes in squads to use ALL of their specific, RESTRICTED TO THEM ONLY skillsets together to get a polyvalent team that can respond to as many different situations as possible! You can only use the perks your SPECIFIC class ALLOWS you to activate!
We suggested a NEW definition of CLASS. I am not imposing a literal translation of a class in Warframe. We have to define that object in the Warframe universe. We are trying to do it in here.
Definition: A CLASS in warframe is an extra layer of skill tree that allows more parkour movements, TPV-FPV switching, weapon reconfiguration for extra zoom, use of sentry guns, use of spy bots, etc.
It is the same idea as the FOCUS tree. Looks like your problem is the use of the word class. I need the word because if we want to add an extra attribute to ANY warframe we have to start with a set of these advantages.
26 minutes ago, Marthrym said:And by the way switching from TPS to FPS view has nothing to do with classes in the first place... It has nothing to do with perks either. And I don't need a video to know how it looks, it used to be a bug that we could recreate more or less reliably. And it got squashed because it showed very well that no, Warframe is NOT a FPS, is not built for that type of gameplay at all, and why would it be?
Again, it is a design idea. We add attribute to a specific class. Each concept is not the consequence of the other. We are clear on that. Warframe can be a HYBRID of FPS and TPS, why not?
26 minutes ago, Marthrym said:Again with Battlefront 2! Why the fixation? why? I want to understand!
Use of examples as reference. We don't want that type of class in Warframe. It gives an idea of the things I don't want in my class definition. Too easy to understand, I don't see why you can't?
26 minutes ago, Marthrym said:Of course the class inhibits the freedoms, choice or selection of items. Each class has specific loadouts and perks that no other class can use! That's the whole point of the class system! Specific roles! Specific equipment! Why? Why are you doing this to me? What have I done to you? Stop! Please! I'm begging you!
WRONG.
Example:
a. Class Support: It is assigned to the tenno. The tenno may choose any warfare inheriting the particular attributes of that class. The choice of that class gives the FPV-TPV switch, grants you faster reloading on heavy weapons and faster recharges on the OPTICOR for example. The clip size increases and your hit power increases. You get the parkour of cover based play.
see?
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On 8/11/2017 at 3:51 PM, xXDeadsinxX said:
It will never happen, as much as you want it in the game it won't happen. DE also has stated that first person is a no go.
DE is simply cutting their legs by leaving out that possibility.
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1 hour ago, Bobtm said:
No, it's because you have yet to provide a single bit of valid reasoning to your suggestions. All it's been is a series of attempts to mislead through excessive verbosity, and pushing a failed agenda.
Jesse James had his habits for a reason. In here I see an intention to SNIDE. You have to FOCUS on the topic, simple. Language happens because you mention concepts that motivates the use of those verbs. Here people speaks more than one language. If you want to lecture on how things should be written then this is not the place for it. People has their styles as you have yours.
Validation of a testing depends on a proof of concept. This is a sketch of an idea that was suggested through videos where people found the FPS idea interesting. Class systems can be an increment or detriment depending on the implementation. Every developer has different ideas in mind for the type of game play they want to produce.
QuoteI have read through the thread in its entirety before I began posting, and no justified reason for these changes has been given. Rather you're simply hiding that you want Warframe to be generic behind a mountain of unnecessarily verbose wording, and trying to pass off a way to homogenize the game as a good idea, when it is simply nothing more than the desire to make Warframe a generic shooter. Case in point, the below lines;
1. Define the word generic.
2. The game doesn't turn generic by the addition of TPV to FPV switching. You have to prove that. The videos I gave shows the opposite.
3. The game doesn't turn generic by adding perks to items due to a class selection.
4. The game doesn't become homogenized by the implementation of FPS elements. GTA5 never turned into COD by adding first person view.
QuoteThe first sentence of the above is totally incorrect. First person is a core design to a game's style, and is not tied to enemy variety. This game's AI isn't particularly great, but changing that AI is meaningless specifically because of how much power we're given as players. All the strategies in the world don't help enemies when we have the on demand ability to snap our fingers and instantly paralyze every single one of them in an eight mile (obvious exaggeration) radius.
False. First person is not necessarily a core design, it is one of the instances in current game design. First person design depends on enemy A.I. behavior. Changing the AI gives the enemy awareness of your presence. They pull off formations, combination and strategies to take you out. For example a Corpus Nullifier with a snipetron protecting four heavy Corpus gunners with supra. Or a Corpus Nullifier with a sniptron protecting two ambulas. The precense of warframes motivates the enemy combine THEIR CLASSES to take you out.
Example 1:
Those are war formations or special teams trying to take you out. A first person view allows you to focus your attention sniping the robot that feeds energy to the nullifier shield. You take that out, move to TPV, change weapons and dispatch the sniper. Then the two ambulas or the four heavy Corpus nullifiers are vulnerable to your supers. You use the FPS as means not as an end.
QuoteAnd then we get into the real meat and potatoes here; Generic shooter play.
It becomes "REPETITIVE" if the FPS becomes the ONLY way to solve every problem of the game. The Synoid Simulor got nerfed because it became the only toy for obliteration, making the rest of the content trivial.
Quote"cover" yes, that thing that does not belong in Warframe. A failed idea that many in the past have put forth, and has been shot down with gusto because it simply is a bad idea for the game. Something players often do not realize when making the suggestion of turning Warframe into a cover shooter; A game has to be balanced around cover-based play, for cover-based play to retain relevance. Balancing a game like this means that a player who does not use cover has next to no chance of surviving should they choose to ignore cover.
Finally you decided to speak, good.
Yes according to you. My style of gameplay uses cover. When you do proper end game you have to use the stage architecture in every sense. Every pillar, slab, box, window, stairs, arrangement counts. Awareness of the level is not incidental.
Cover based play happens when your enemy becomes stronger than you. A tactic changes depending on the STRENGTH of the enemy and the level of the THREAT. The slow trench game is almost the perpetual style in these fps because few hits or just one hit takes out the player. So the game becomes totally cover based game. In Warframe, the shield and armor regeneration gives the opportunity to the careless player to not be aware of the enemy position.
Warframe doesn't need to be BALANCED. You simply add the switching and new enemy units that provides the NECESSITY of cover based game.
QuoteThe ultimate result of this change? The effective removal of this game's current speedier pacing. Or to word it in another manner? Making Warframe into a generic shooter.
Classical preconceptions.
QuoteAlso purely to point it out, having first person does not inherently allow for cover, nor does third person disallow it. Games can have fully functioning cover systems without the addition of a first person mode. So even if adding cover were a good idea (read; it is not) it still does not support your idea of adding first person into Warframe.
No one disagrees with this. It is standard knowledge in game design. Gears of War does this. First person view and the cover based play are separate concepts.
QuoteThe greater problem in all of this is that your view of Warframe is simply wrong, since you have an over-glorified view of generic shooting games.
False. Why should I waste my time being MR 24 in the PS4? Why should I waste my time playing a game I don't like? Why should I waste my time playing Horizon Zero Down, Dark Soul 3 or even Fez if I "over glorify "generic shooting games"? See the problem with your suppositions?
In life, in architecture, in game design, in parametric design we start with interpretations. Then we separate the variables and measure the experimental and the control variable. We measure things and compare them seeing the results. This is how everything in engineering and architecture works. If some ideas doesn't work, we dispatch them. If other ideas work, well, we adopt them and optimize.
Simple. Engineering, Architecture and Game design works on consensus of individuals. In here we test these ideas. They are not final decisions. I am not going to be dissuaded if the idea is not that great at the start. Good things must go through heavy critique.
QuoteAs a last note; The necessary shots you have taken against casual play. Warframe has always been a simple, easy, and yes, casual game by its core design. This does not mean it is a bad game at all. This also doesn't mean that there's zero challenge to any of the game either. But one isn't required to have great skill in order to be successful throughout this game's missions at large. It does however still allow a player with more skill to perform better, since we have weapons that excel when doing headshots and other such things.
You proved my point with this paragraph.
1. Warframe doesn't exclude casuals and novice by adding these modifications.
2. Warframe must reward skill players.
3. No one here mentioned that Warframe is a bad game at all.
I'm going to critique harshly casual gaming and fashion frame. In my opinion, those are just a waste of time and resources for game play. The game doesn't deprive players with no skill and it never will. However the game SHOULD reward skillful players too. See? I am not against fashion frame as a commercial idea. No one is against customization and characterization parameters.
It is a false notion that fashion frame should be endgame. That idea is simply WRONG.
QuoteSwapping to first person does not somehow magically change how aiming works. It's just tacking first person into something that can be done fine without it, solely to try and make an idea sound cool when it still has no true point. This is because, at the end of it all, there is no reason for it, unless you change what kind of game Warframe is from the ground up.
It does. When you switch to FPV you gain stability and of course precision. This depends on the developer design.
QuoteWarframe is not a generic shooter game.
No one is turning it into a "generic shooter".
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2 hours ago, Marthrym said:
Classes are a concept that does not apply to this game. This is not a FPS. This is not Battlefield or CoD. It's not even an MMO, contrary to that strange notion some, for some unfathomable reason, seem to entertain. It's an online cooperative game, a third person horde shooter that greatly expanded over time, with plenty of fancy stuff to choose from to kill and maim whatever gets in the way in many, fun ways.
According to you. I could say the same about the tenno focus schools. We all have opinions on everything. It's perfectly normal to write a disagreement.
Warframe is a playground. It tests different types of game play in lineal combinations. This game is the reference book for many other game designers and developers. With some frames I can combine Pharah, Mercy, Diva, Gengi and Hanzo. These are perfect lineal combinations that are particularized in parameters similar to Overwatch. A Zephir can take those tasks in a seamless transition.
Yes, we know this is not a Battlefront 2 testing ground. That is the classical vehicular CLASS system. It's a military test. When many people listen to class they think on COD. Warframe is a COMPOSITE game that adds a card game, hack and slash, parkour, and suppers with gear. It's a cooperative game, we all agree on that.
2 hours ago, Marthrym said:Frames are designed to be flexible, to be able to face pretty much anything. They have specialties, yes, but not "classes". They can all wield the same weapons, with the same proficiency, save a passive here or there, or specific abilities, adding just a little something to a weapon type or another without pigeonholing the frame into a specific, restrictive role. Of course they were never "ninjas", that's called marketing, "Ninjas play free" sounds much better to me than "classes each play some arbitrary way because we said so". This is not a military shooter, and thank the Lotus for that. Classes impose restrictions, more often than not pointless and far from realistic. It does work well in some games, but that's because their design philosophy revolves around it. Not Warframe. It never has, and I sincerely hope it never will. There's already enough distinction between frames to give them all their own specialty, without forcing them into it and not much else, for the most part.
CLASSES ARE NOT RESTRICTION. Classes assign extra attributes. The class happens on the tenno. Nothing gets pigeonholed. You simply can get the must of your weapon by modding. A class ACTIVATES a perk that allows you to switch between FPV to TPV. The videos included in the previous posts gives an idea how the idea will look.
2 hours ago, Marthrym said:If I want to play a "class", I play a game that is designed around it. Warframe is thankfully not one of them. This freedom is the cornerstone of the game's design philosophy.
Yes, Battlefront 2.
But the class doesn't kill the freedoms, choices or selection of items. These are classes that ACTIVATES special abilities.
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14 hours ago, TectonicKnight said:
There are SO many mechanics to understand at this point, and the only way to wrap your head around them all is by googling them.
Sorry but I have to say this:
So using your brain hurts that much? Really?
Edit: You forced my hand.
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3 hours ago, Bobtm said:
This is strictly untrue, for the simple fact that the game doesn't support first person play in its current or in any past iteration.
I never wrote that as a claim. It is a POSSIBILITY. The design needs to be tested.
QuoteTwofold issue here; My reference of "you want to make Warframe generic" wasn't pointed towards the concept of implementing First Person into the game. It was aimed at your prior statement of "You leave behind the "ninja" and get into classical combat" which is quite literally a statement that points towards a desire to make Warframe like other generic shooting games. Rather than the stylized game that it currently is.
Do you know the differences between suppositions, personal comments and scientific claims?
You are taking out of context a sentence. Instead of braking one post into isolated atoms, you have to read the flow of the conversation. These rebukes are aimless because the claim was previously discussed. The actualization of the discussion of the thread rendered that issue resolved in a previous post. Do you take your time to read the thread?
You are supposing that my desire is to make warframe generic. That is completely false. You need to read all the posts and see where the discussion is at instead of loosing time making anachronistic rebuttals.
QuoteSecondly, the game's design doesn't mean it can adopt the idea well on its own. First person and high mobility simply do not work together like this. This is why you cannot find an example of a game that's as swift and chaotic as Warframe, that is also first person.
Read the last post. You can't have speed and shoot at the same time you have to SWITCH between FPV to TPV. You can play TPV all the time and then switch to FPV shooting distant enemies, then go back to TPV. It's not hard to understand.
QuoteEspecially when it's a very simplistic concept in nature. The issue is that the concept itself lacks relevance and meaning.
Just adding first person into the game provides nothing of merit of its own accord. In addition there's the issue that it simply does not work with Warframe's core gameplay currently as I and many other users have pointed out quite explicitly.
Yes, according to you. The relevance of the concept depends on the type of enemy you are confronting. If the A.I. is dumb and simplistic then suffice to run the mill slashing and jumping like a Sonic The Hedgehog with melee weapons and crazy casting of supers.
QuoteWarframe, as a game, isn't your everyday bog standard shooter game. There's nothing to be gained at all by adding in "classical shooting" as that is the very generic type of gameplay that doesn't improve anything. We can move along the ground and use basic aiming functionality within a third-person space as is, meaning that there's no valid reason that you've given for implementing first person yet in this thread. What does first person "do" for Warframe?
This is not a gameplay improvement. It's the creation of both an unnecessary gameplay limitation and the sudden inclusion of a new and unwanted and unfitting mechanic into the game, without any appropriate merit.
Activision, Ubisoft, Bungie among others tarnished the reputation of the classical shooter. Great classical shooters are very rare and only few gets the formula right. In warframe I shoot the enemy more than just slashing or pummeling them with melee weapons. I simply don't equip melee weapons just to engage the enemy using primaries and secondaries.
First person do for warframe the following:
Precise aiming and use of your weapon. Gives accuracy while slows down the Sonic The Hedgehog speed. You can simply switch back to third person view and continue your approach as usual. First person view gives a more intimate relation with the stage, the scale and the environment. The perception of the level changes completely and the sense of monumental is accentuated.
Quote- Why would being in a first person camera make a gun stronger?
- Why arbitrarily generate an ability limitation based on a class choice?
- Why create a jarring distinction in gameplay without offering any relevant reason for it to exist?
1. A first person view gives PRECISION.
2. Choose a tenno, a special weapon and with such combination you can use the perk. The class resides on the tenno not the warframe.
3. GIves a diverse kit of dexterity and ways of thinking. The tool gives more ways to work around problems. You can simply go stealth, test your marksmanship, fire as TPV or combine these gameplay styles.
Should I mention what DE did with the throwing stars and hand guns? What distance we have of switching back and forth TPV and FPV. TPV provides wide advantage on the field of vision. FPV provides weapon handling, accuracy and tactics but limit warframe movement like the bullet jump.
QuoteYour same example could be put into the game right now just by making a heavy style weapon that players can equip. But without the extra baggage and bad mechanics that would force obscure limitations upon it without any feasible or sensible benefit. What your example does is only provide a new and unpleasant meta of; "Be in first person or you aren't as effective as you could be."
FPS is relevant depending on THE TYPE OF THE ENEMY and the development of the A.I. Right now the A.I. is way awful and infant. It depends on the crutch of shields and armor. Enemy DPS is increased drastically just to make them lethal. They are not lethal for their strategies, plans and tactics. First person helps you to TAKE COVER, use the trench and USE THE LEVEL in your favor. Right now levels are design as COSMETICS. Columns, walls, slabs and bridges are incidental. In an FPS the stage COUNTS and so the A.I.
If there are no tougher enemies other than bullet sponges, then yes you are completely right. FPV is not needed at all rendering this conversation to a mere triviality.
QuoteTherein are the issues with this and your other suggestions throughout this thread. They boil down to needless fluff with no real reason or backing of any amount.
Those reasons where explained, you have to read again. Why should I discuss basic concepts? This is a TEST of an idea that grows in a conversation of agreements or disagreements.
QuoteTo pose it in a very simple question for each point;
- What does first person hope to truly add into Warframe, on a level of mechanical relevance?
- What reason is there to adding a class system overlay onto the game's existing wealth of choices and options?
1. Immersion, skill and quick reaction. Right now Warframe is a game aimed at casuals, an example the whole idea of "fashion frame". FPV could provide other clients to the formula.
2. The class is designed to the tenno not the warframe. The class allows players for a wider kit of gameplay style adding more freedom to the game.
QuoteThe problem thus far is that neither of these above questions have been given a valid answer within this thread. This is why your ideas are garnering a stream of dissenting viewpoints, without any sign of agreement on any horizon. Give people something valid, an understandable reasoning behind what benefits are provided by these ideas. Without validity, it's just nonsensical shouting into a void.
Without validity or backing, these ideas come across as needless complications at best, and downgrades to the existing game at worst.
The problem thus far with you rebukes is that they do not prove anything or ADD ideas to the problem you want to point out. Many tried and gave valuable information. In your post I see empty intentions to say no without a logical explanation.
I already gave people something coherent. It's up to them if they agree or disagree. They have that free choice. In here validity must be done by game design. Right now I don't have the infrastructure to modify warframe and test these ideas. I would love to test them and see if they work or if these ideas doesn't.
Validity was given throughout the thread. You have to read. I can't do that for you.
Video 1:
Video 2:
Video 3:
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Example of an instance:
Two Greener flying carriers equipped with heavy guns maned by heavy troops are searching for you. The whole thing has powerful main guns and these carriers fly in numbers of two. Each carrier has platoons of Greener with special teams that uses sentry guns, droids and globe shields.
Your warframe has a powerful weapon that can be shot as you already can with the TPV. However this gun uses a special perk that is given due to some class selection on your tenno. Since you want to take out the gunners in the flying carrier, you perform your speed run, do your bullet jumps and then once on land you immediately switch to FPV. This activates a perk in your weapon that makes extra damage plus gives you accuracy. Then make few shots and switch back to TPV for an escape route since the other ship is trying to pull a barrage on you.
You "ORGANICALLY" switch between FPV to TPV whenever you want. It's not a limiting box of being stuck with FPV. You can continue shooting your weapon doing those maneuvers on TPV.
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People are hungry for content because that motivates us to invest and support the game. I was dreaming with Empyrean almost for two years when it was announced. Warframe is "MEMEframe" for what it does. We like it, we enjoy so far the great game DE achieved. We want to see larger open world levels for exploration. We want to see more capable A.I. and better looking enemies. We want to see action in the battlefield with capital ships hovering over POE and Fortuna. Remember when the infinite clone glitch happened with Wukong? It's the epic fight and the variety of enemies and levels that keeps us investing money in your game. We want to see more 'assets' in the new content. You keep us happy, we fill your wallet.