Kinethia
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Posts posted by Kinethia
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Also, that type of armour would literally cost the Grineer a fortune to have the Corpus mass produce for their billions of clones.
It could literally bankrupt them.
Actually that's the beauty of nanoconstruction. At least in theory, once you have makers with fine enough resolution, you can churn out huge quantities of extremely complex objects like that for dirt cheap. The only expensive part is developing the original design schematic which is used as a template. Grineer are wealthy and powerful enough to pay that steep up-front cost for the ability to mass-produce a nearly endless supply of inexpensive state-of-the-art powered armour. They could use makers like those for fabricating weapons and ship parts as well.
In addition, any suit with a vacuum layer will be an almost perfect insulator against any heat which doesn't burn through the armour itself. That would, of course, require the suit to be sealed and contain some sort of fully pressurized life-support system.
However, energy shields may have already made all these technologies somewhat obsolete. With shields in play, we can't really say what's going on under the hood of those suits. That's not exactly trivial tech on display, and many Grineer have shields as part of their standard kit, including the lowly sawmen.
However it seems that Ember merely kills enemies by burning them. This is an extremely inefficient way to kill enemies, especially for the relatively low temperature of her flames (around 1000C/1800F judging from the visible spectrum). She relies on thermal decomposition (AKA charring) to let the fire eat away at the armor and reach the victim's vital organs or put them in shock. This may be the best way to kill Infested as it is unknown if they breathe or are even living.Temperature-wise, you're assuming the default colour is canon, rather than the option for Ember to change the colour at will being the actual canonical appearance. If the colour is purely an aesthetic effect separate from the heat itself, that means the temperature range could be any arbitrary number we like, but somehow implemented in a subtler fashion. Tenno are all basically ninjas, after all. It makes sense that the real deadly effect would lie concealed beneath a surface layer of flashy but harmless pyrotechnics.
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That's quite the conspiracy theory right there.
Nah, the conspiracy theorists claim the whole cycle is a test of new combat AI being performed in secret by the Corpus mainframes, which gained sentience decades ago and are the puppet masters running the whole company from the shadows. They supposedly skim tremendous amounts of money from the Corpus budget and are subtly re-purposing ships and factories for enacting their secret master plan.
EDIT: Whereas finding the occasional corpse animated by their malevolent, self-aware, rogue AI suit? At Corpus, that's not a conspiracy, that's Tuesday.
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I guess that makes sense. But you would expect that kind of high tech technology from Corpus. Not grineer. I dunno, grineer technology seems kind of crude and primitive. But I suppose that's true.
Corpus armour can also defeat a chess grandmaster. Occasionally one of the Corpus suits just kills its occupant and walks their corpse around, exploiting the dead crewman's security clearance to enact a secret plot to conquer the system. These rogue suits are purged in regularly scheduled Corpus employee performance reviews, where they are asked to remove their helmets.
EDIT:
EDIT: And Tenno are supposed to be connected to the Orokin in some way, which possess very advanced technology so there's really no reason some warframes have such primitive powers like fire or ice.
Think of them as heat and cold, if that helps. Altering the ambient temperature to values near absolute zero or thousands of degrees above local norms are not trivial things to do.
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But one thing is that it's weird that fire doesn't go through armor. It doesn't make sense. I'm assuming the armor is made out of metal, and fire heats metal up and can even melt it with high enough temperatures. Even if it doesn't melt it, the grineer sitting in that armor would get roasted in the armor oven.
Most modern military armour is made at least in part from heat-resistant, high performance ceramics. Many modern armoured vehicles also use plating composed of layers of ceramic and metals with extremely high melting points and densities like tungsten, titanium, and even uranium.
In the future, it's likely a lot of armour will be nanofrabricated, and therefore made of extremely elaborate laminates with millions of layers in a variety of materials. Possibly even with magnetically isolated vacuum layers or something. It could literally take hours for the heat to penetrate one of those suits.
Then again, some of the Grineer aren't wearing their helmets.
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I just find it hard to believe she is that bad... I played with an Ember in the survival event that literally killed 1000 more enemies then every one else on the team, again thats not hyperbole. Is she more fragile then Loki now? Do you guys think she will be better after U10? I guess ill know in a few hours lol.
But more seriously:
Pros:
- Easy to use at low levels: Most abilities you just activate and then wander around doing whatever while things take damage and are briefly stunned by fire, then die.
- Great for adrenaline junkies at high levels: Very challenging to use effectively on high level missions, requiring powers to be used for crowd control while evading as much as possible and rushing from cover to cover. Possibly the most challenging frame to play later on.
Cons:
- Fragile: Lowest possible armour (10) combined with short range powers makes her hazardous to use against powerful opponents.
- Poor offense: Until Update 10, her powers deal relatively little damage to armoured targets like Grineer and infested ancients.
- Somewhat repetitive: All of her powers are area of effect fire damage over time, and nothing else.
- Poor customizeablility: V polarity aura slot combined with samey powers and low-to-average stats means there aren't many creative options for designing builds.
She has a bit more health and shields than Loki, but less armour and has none of Loki's escape powers or options.
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Im looking for a good review of Embers pros and cons because Im building her as we speak, but judging by the highly emotional post in here im in the wrong place...
Pros:
Stylish.
Classy.
Rambunctious.
Playful.
Enthusiastic.
Perfect pitch.
Hard working.
Fabulous dancer.
Good table manners.
Australian accent.
Cons:
Stats.
Powers.
n.~
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Did you account for the applied element having a multiplier of *2 (or maybe higher) on the enemy you use it against?
If an element deals more damage to the faction than armour piercing, it should replace the Flechette which was already in the build. In which case, the faction mod would deal even more damage (multiplicative, remember) meaning Flechette's +90% would no longer even come close to competing with it. In the extreme possiblity that armour piercing and another element (or any combination of two elements) both deal double damage to the faction, then the critical mods may lose their shine, but the faction mod still wouldn't.
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We'll have to wait for DE to change armor before we can say that for sure.
The faction mod boost works out to +93%, compared with an elemental mod's +90%. Unless the elemental damages are somehow amplified by armour after the update, it's pretty safe to say the faction mod wins.
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Sadly, you will likely want to add an elemental mod to your build after the armor change, so if that slot will stay free is not certain.
Blaze, Flechette, and Accelerated Blast are already dealing +210% elemental damage. A 30% increase which multiplies both augmented base damage and elemental damage would give a bigger boost than another +90% elemental damage possibly could, even on unarmoured targets.
For a total breakdown on the damage for this build:
22 (10 + 120%) pellets per shot, 61.75 (19 x 1.3 + 150%) base damage per pellet + 92.625 Armour Piercing + 37.05 Fire
38% crit chance, +180% damage on critical hit
Average total damage per shot 2287.714 base + 3431.571 Armour Piercing + 1372.6284 fire, or 7091.9134 damage altogether
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Just ried that and I deal 154 damage with a latron prime with maxed serration and maxed bane of grineer against a medium grineer with a headshot.
45*2.65*1.3= 155
If it was additive, it would deal a maximum of 133 damage.
My point still stands.
Were you accounting for the fact that headshots have an extra damage multiplier?
If your calculation is correct, then the anti-faction mods are much more effective than I thought, and are worth equipping whenever possible, or at least are almost always superior to a second elemental damage mod (even one which deals +90%). Luckily, there was one more slot left on that shotgun build above.
Even so, best to double check your math by using the same build without the bane mod. (should deal 119 damage without it)
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It's not even as high priority as anti faction mods are...
That is incorrect. Anti-faction mods are only additive with other base damage mods like Blaze and Point blank. Critical mods are multiplicative with all other damage types.
EDIT: to clarify:
Cleanse Infested adds +30% damage.
Point blank and Blaze add a total of +150% damage.
Combining the two results in +180% damage. (for a total base damage of 280%)
Critical mods multiply base damage by 1.46
250% (base 100% + 150% for Point Blank and Blaze) x 1.46 = 365% (base 100% + 265%)
So the two critical mods combined add +115% more base damage in total, which in turn increases the damage dealt by all the elemental bonuses and multishot.
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Then why even bother making a crit shotgun if they refuse to go all the way with it?
It does go all the the way. The shotgun crit mods are essential for the highest possible damage per shot on a maxed Wraith build. They just aren't as high a priority as Point Blank, Blaze, Flechette, Accelerated Blast, and Hell's Chamber.
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If those factors can be mitigated -- eg, if the Acrid deals better DPS but requires closer range than the Lanka, but it's relatively easy to close with enemies (which it is) -- DPS is the only pertinent measure.
It's easy to get close, but not consistently safe. I regularly snipe enemies from as far away as possible to minimize health damage. Especially when playing solo on high level missions. The missions which are dangerous enough to need top tier weapons have enemies that rip through warframe shields like they aren't even there. Getting close also often leaves one vulnerable to enemy crowd control, which can easily lead to death shortly thereafter. I never use Acrid for such solo missions unless I'm using an extremely tanky frame. Even then, it sometimes kills me. I generally prefer the Snipetron Vandal, although I will switch to the Lanka once it's built.
EDIT: As another note, sniper weapons can reliably make every hit a headshot even at extreme range, which effectively doubles DPS. With less accurate weapons, that would instead require getting closer still and even greater risks (and even then, are typically more likely to miss due to the need for haste and rapid corrections, as the enemies tend to be more twitchy and less easy to follow at very close ranges).
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Says who?
Says the same authority which decided shotguns are better for multishot. It adds a thematic 'feel' when each category of guns has a slightly different order of priority for mod types.
And frankly, rifles make the most sense as a critical weapon, thematically. Criticals generally represent hitting especially sensitive or weak points, and as rifles are more accurate than pistols or shotguns, they are somewhat better suited to such fine targeting.
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The big problem I can see with the platinum system is this:
Nobody buys platinum at full price unless money is not an issue. Wait until you get a 20% 50% or 75% off login reward that makes the prices more than fair. The end!
I personally had to wait until the Steam sale to get the discount I needed to make a purchase. And I probably won't make another purchase unless I either find a 75% off, or another sale of similar value occurs.
Rule number one of marketing: Never make it difficult for your customers to give you their money.
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Shouldn't Lanka have the same DPS as a Supra or Acrid?)
DPS is not a be-all end-all balance measure for weapons with so many varying factors involved. The Lanka is far more accurate, has much greater range, and is extremely ammo-efficient in comparison to those other weapons. Assuming they are all intended to be equal, the Acrid and Supra should deal better DPS than the Lanka, as they only reliably hit at close range and burn ammunition much faster, which makes them riskier choices in other ways.
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Judging from the stats of the SW, it has more potential to be a crit weapon than any other gun in the game, yet the damage increase for adding both mods is less than half of what sniper rifles get.
Sniper rifles are better for critical hits because they are sniper rifles. Rifles get better crit and base damage boosts, and shotguns get better multishot, elemental damage, and fire rate boosts. They are all cumulative with each other, so the total damage works out to be rather similar for both weapon categories at max level.
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Until I actually tried them and found out the truth, I was honestly expecting Ogris and Torid to draw ammo from the shotgun pool like bows draw from the sniper pool. That would make more sense for the Miter as well, methinks.
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Or instead... Jump + Tap fire for ranged attack in the air, Jump + Charge fire for the good old jump attack. No need to remove it.
Other way around, methinks. Throws have charge time.
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Generally speaking, the more important and central to play a rule is, the more fun it is to break. The key is to make sure that the rule is broken in a way which is more interesting than damaging to the play experience, which is where the design legwork comes in. The designer in question firmly believed that every single class needed to be able to break at least one rule which no other class could. This simple guideline instantly made each and every class feel unique and incomparable to any other, with all other abilities and options simply being used to round out the concepts and add depth. I liked the approach, and often use it myself.
As a follow-up, Saryn somewhat qualifies as unique in this regard as she breaks an almost universal rule of frames, not with her powers, but with her base statistics. If I were to phrase it in the usual manner, it would be, "half or more of thy resilience shall be shields, and not be protected by thine armour, nor qualify as taking damage for Rage and similar effects."
She has at least 50% more health than any other frame except Ash, who lacks the armour needed to reap the full potential of this rare quality without much greater risk.
Breaking this simple and rather subtle rule actually opens up a world of possibilities for builds which would be downright silly on a Rhino or Frost. The most fun I've had with Saryn by far has been focusing on and exploring this unusual area where she stands well in front of any other frame.
Others can experiment a bit with this effect by equipping vitality without redirection and playing at lower levels, but only Saryn is made for it, whether intentional or not.
So, once again, it may be possible to make Ember feel more interesting without changing her abilities at all and changing something else instead, albeit much riskier and more difficult from a development perspective, in my opinion.
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I recall a conversation I had with a fellow designer while he was making character classes for a pen & paper RPG system. He said that the key to making fun abilities is to create a system and world which has many fundamental rules and limitations, around which everything is balanced and centered, and then design the ability to bend or break one of those rules.
As an example, one of the most memorable classes he created specialized in contributing to combat after falling unconscious. It broke the rule that being knocked out removed a character from play.
Many warframe abilities also follow this philosophy, whether intentional or not.
Sometimes the rules they break are large and obvious. For example:
- Frost's Snow Globe and Volt's Electric Shield, which break a key rule, "If thy bullets may reach thine enemies, thine enemies' bullets may reach thee."
- Several of Vauban's abilities break the rule, "Thou shalt not control thine enemies' movements."
- Many abilities belonging to many warframes break the rule, "Thou cannot traverse the distance between two points without using thy legs."
- As well as, "If thou stands openly in front of thine enemy, thine enemy will surely attack thee."
- Mag's Bullet Attractor breaks the rather cardinal rule of shooters, "Thou must aim at thy enemy to inflict damage with thy weapons." (as a note, this is also one of several rules broken by the Ogris, which is part of why that weapon is a nightmare from a balance perspective)
Sometimes the rules are small and subtle, such as Banshee's Sonar, which breaks the rules, "Thou shalt not see the enemy without observing them directly." and, "Thine enemies' weak points are determined by the nature and type of the enemy."
Ember's abilities lose much of their charm because they all break only a single rule of Warframe, which is the same rule broken by at least one ability belonging to every other frame, as well as several weapons (including the Ogris again). That rule, of course, being, "Thou may only damage one of thine enemies at a time."
Generally speaking, the more important and central to play a rule is, the more fun it is to break. The key is to make sure that the rule is broken in a way which is more interesting than damaging to the play experience, which is where the design legwork comes in. The designer in question firmly believed that every single class needed to be able to break at least one rule which no other class could. This simple guideline instantly made each and every class feel unique and incomparable to any other, with all other abilities and options simply being used to round out the concepts and add depth. I liked the approach, and often use it myself.
Just serving some food for thought.
EDIT: Proofreading. Also, I apologize for what I'm sure are many misuses of exotic English. I'm only fluent in the modern sort, but I find it helps both presentation and thought process to phrase the rules in a quirky manner. Makes them more memorable. It's another thing I picked up from that same designer.
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i can rush a lvl 20 mission solo and kill without probs all enemies with only a overheat, More energy Mod and WoF.
One of the biggest problems is that Ember is boring and kind of unrewarding.
That's what I'm trying to tell people. It's not about the numbers, it's just that all her abilities are very similar (fire DoT in different shapes).
This is very much the problem I have as well. As Ember is now, no amount of damage will make me happy.
At levels where she deals enough damage to be effective, everything dies too quickly, without much active participation or strategy from the player. She is OP and boring.
At levels where the damage is no longer sufficient, she is less effective than any other frame. Her abilities are frustrating and nigh-impossible to use in most combat situations, and she has no abilities which change the context of the battle in a meaningful and strategic way. Even Volt has the incomparable electric shield and speed abilities.
There isn't actually any middle ground between these two ranges, which also happens to result in Ember having a difficulty curve shaped like a brick wall at the end of an alley, as illustrated below:
___|
^ Somewhat misleading to call this a curve, in fact
EDIT: Added clarifications
EDIT II: Thought of another idea. If Overheat started at its original high damage reduction value, but slowly lost defensive strength over the course of its entire duration until it wears off completely at the end, it would prevent people from just spamming the ability for immortality and force them to use it more strategically. She would still be able to do the same crazy things as before, but timing would be crucial. For example, Ember could be almost indestructible when she starts reviving someone, but by the time she finishes the revival, the damage reduction provided by overheat would be noticeably lower (by 10-20%). She'd have to weigh her options more carefully.
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unless i'm missing something, my overheat, maxed with maxed focus does 520 damage to infested, 260 to everything else. armor ignoring, though it does do 2x damage to infested.
In all of my tests, Overheat dealt 50% more damage per tick than World on Fire, which was cited as dealing 400 fire damage per tick. That's where the 600 came from. I ran the tests against level 1 Grineer on Terminus, Mercury.
Can I see all the numbers you recorded, including (if possible) enemy type and level?
EDIT:
"all her powers still CC". No, they don't. Again, you've obviously never played ember.
They do, actually. It's just very short, light CC which doesn't affect heavy Grineer and bosses. It's the same 'stun' effect caused when shooting enemies with a fire weapon. However, the stun only applies when damaging health, not shields, and after it wears off it won't apply again, so an enemy will only be stunned for the first couple seconds, no matter how long the ability's duration is. Also, Infested ancients and some other enemies will still move while 'stunned' but will not attack for the brief duration.
It's terrible CC, relatively speaking, but it is there.
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So since ember is now well nerfed a bit. And overheat is exactly the same as WoF but a extremly smaller AoE.
Technically, Overheat deals more damage and has no target limit, so those are two other differences in Overheat's favour. Also, the two abilities can be used simultaneously to stack the damage. I don't recommend this however, because anything big enough to need the extra DPS is almost always also big enough to murder you quickly and violently if you get too close.
As for 3rd skill, if enemies enter border of the ring, paralyze them so they stay in the fire.
Alternatively, the Fire Blast DoT could attach to any enemies which pass through the ring, so they continue taking damage even after they leave.
<colourful language>
0.o
Umm... *blinks* General Patton is not a good role model for interpersonal interaction. *nods* Even on the internet. Please be careful, okay?
Ember 9.8: Feedback Thread
in Warframes
Posted
*blinks* That's rather odd, given the overall tech-level. Seems like it should be easy enough to just fix that. *shakes head* Do you think we could petition the Lotus for thicker boots?