xZayziex
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Posts posted by xZayziex
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1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:
While you made this one of you points, mine was quite relevant to the overall discussion on farming. And in regards to Ivara, she has never been or could be an efficient frame for farming if just using Prowl's steal ability.
This is whether in groups, solo, chill gameplay, or serious farming session. Her most efficient method of farming in all those cases is to just kill the enemies straight out. Anything else is really just wasting energy for little gain while in Prowl.
The only time using her Prowl to steal for farming doesn't fall into the above is in cases like against the acolytes,Grove Spectors, stalker, etc
This is one of the main reasons I've always thought people that complained about her steal Nerf were just full of B.S.
You are talking as if my original post doesn't outline how Ivara's loot ability works and where it falls short, and how it could be better in plenty of detail, and as if I didn't suggest ways it could be useful for a full sqaud or improve solo play. You are also becoming condescending and demeaning by acting as if my wanting to play a Warframe a certain way is not valid or reasonable even if I just feel like it, or as if others wanting to loot with Ivara is nonsense. I also know other folks who enjoy looting with Ivara even if it's not the best. Again, penty of people play Warframe how they want to suit their own playstyle or the mood they're in, regardless of whether or not you think they should.
Anyway, I will be moving on from your comments as well as I'm not interested in perpetually repeating myself or trying to have a discussion with someone who seems more interested in a full blown argument than an actual discussion.
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6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:
This happens because of enemy radar. Enemies that appear on the radar tend to move toward the frame with it. Ivara innately has 20m enemy radar without any other mods. Using mods to increase the range of enemy radar shouldn't cause any problems for teammates in the same room.
Thanks for the info though there shouldn't need to be a workaround for this.
8 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:It' just more efficient and faster to just kill groups of enemies and let Vacuum get the drops than try to use Prowl's steal to double dip.
I've already made this point and I also play Ivara all the time even though I haven't been playing for years like others. I also pointed out that I like to play solo, chill while exploring around a map, get drops, and not have to kill everything. I enjoy having options for playing frames differently depending on how I feel. Sometimes I kill everything on a map with Ivara, sometimes I don't. Again, everyone plays differently.
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And we discussed it and I acknowledged that I disagreed, but they aren't budging on their point and are dismissing or ignoring mine and moving the goal posts. It's not about whether or not I like it, it's just tiresome to constantly respond to that and easier to admit we disagree and just move on.
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45 minutes ago, Xzorn said:
Did you miss how happy DE was to tell everyone that Kuva will work with Shmeeta? Kavats were heavily underused yet still fairly new so they made that an exception to get players to use them instead of simply making Kavats good. One of the reasons Kuva drop rates suck is because DE intends for players use boosters and Shmeeta when farming it. Would you use Shmeeta if it didn't have that loot gimmick? Probably not and that's the point I'm attempting to explain.
I've watched this scam repeat over and over with Oxium at 1-3 per drop then Tellerium, Ceres Beacons, Mutagen Samples, resources from PoE / Vallis and every other new resource. They make crap harder to get when it comes out on purpose because you're expected to use boosters and loot frames to get them until those resources become worthless and the ones that don't become worthless they lock your loot abilities out.
I didn't need boosters back in U7, 8, 9, ect and there were no loot abilities. Anyone trying to fix or promote changes to a meta stat like +%Loot is just playing into a battle they've already lost and at the determent of replacing good features like if Hydroid's Tentacles, Atlas' Ore Gaze or Khora's 4th augments actually did something. Removing loot abilities, replacing them with functional features and normalizing drop rates produces no negative effects. You're welcome to bring one up.
...always need Poly. Pffft.
Resources are easier to get than they've ever been, least for me but I guess that's my play style and sucks for whoever doesn't do the same.
I've seen people burn through that much polymer in a week's time so you can feel how you want about it people still always use and need certain resources. I've also already named some of the points you bring up, have already brought up counterpoints and my suggestions also would not create any negative effects while also not demanding DE's team add five to nine (including pets) reworks to their schedule on top of going through all the drop tables and rates.
However, you seem totally content not to engage those points in favor of being condescending and putting people down so I'm done engaging your points for now. If you'd like to go contribute to threads about removing loot abilities in favor of other things, or have already done so—more power to you, but I'm not interested in discussing total overhauls into several different aspects of the game. Id rather discuss how to make one activity in the game less about a meta and more about synergizing playstyles. So best to you, but I'm going to focus on the original point if this thread now and not go totally off the rails.
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And you are clearly not realizing I have been discussing ways to synergize looting/resource farming tactics, player's playstyles and ability mechanics so that you can promote your own pet peeve with drop rates and loot tables, which leads to a whole other conversation about balancing any and everything in warframe. You also ignored that Ivara is a whole Warframe that can get loot without killing anyone and some people may prefer playing like that.
The fact you aren't getting more rare mission rewards or special currency is not a reason to say loot abilities—which get lootable resources to craft mission reward items—and fixing drop rates and tables should be mutually exclusive. The foundry is also where farmable resources are used to make tons of items that people burn through during regular gameplay while mission rewards you get and have and use forever or can sell for plat if they get more of those rewards. And Kuva is not excluded from being affected by loot abilities as Smeeta's Charm can affect the amount of Kuva you get.
TL;DR I agree that drop rates and tables are funky compared to what types of items require them and how often people use those items, but I disagree that removing loot abilites is actually the solution because synergizing loot abilities and fixing drop rates/tables aren't mutually exclusive and removing loot abilites can create tons of other issues that deserves their own feedback thread or already have one.
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11 hours ago, Drasiel said:
Ore gaze has a 25% chance for additional loot from enemies destroyed while stoned by petrify
- the 25% is affected by power strength requiring 200% strength to reach 50% loot chance
Ore gazes base range is a 14m 60 degree cone.
- length is affected by power range
- the 60 degree angle of effect is immutable
Enemies must be killed within 20 seconds of casting at base to have the chance to drop extra loot
- affected by power duration...
So it sounds like Atlas' ability would also work best in a choke point but, compared to others, it's too slow and works against players/missions that focus on kills per second. It seems like this ability could be made better by just making it an instant cast 360 degree ability (after equipping the augment), or having range change the angle of effect. Honestly I feel like the skill should just have a flat 50% to drop loot and scale up with ability strength from there, at least to be able to synergize or be viable to use on its own. It also makes sense to me since it's kind of like "mining" for more loot. But yeah, in it's current state it seems useless.
51 minutes ago, Xzorn said:- Remove all Loot based abilities.
- Replace Loot based abilities with fun / effective / on-theme functions.
- Normalize drops based on Avg improvement of previous loot ability stacking.
- Play what you want without worrying about a stat that doesn't serve a purpose.
1&3. Synergizing loot abilities and normalizing drop tables don't need to be mutually exclusive, and, as I said before 1) people who want tons of loot are still going to go out and farm tons of loot, regardless of how much DE tries to nerf farming and 2) people like to farm to minimize time needed to gather resources and maximize time playing missions they like, which may only be sorties, fissures, arbitrations and kuva survival for several people. Buffing the amount of resources extractors get could also be an alternative to needing to go farming.
2. Many looter frames are also already "on-theme" . Ivara is "the huntress, the thief" while Hydroid is "a deadly marauder from the deep" so generating more loot makes total sense for both. For Ivara, looting also allows for a totally different type of playstyle since her sleep arrow and ability to loot also makes her owerful solo frame that can solo sabotages and spy missions without killing anyone while still getting loot and she only needs to kill one person in a capture mission. If I want to jump on warframe, solo things and chill then I take Ivara everywhere. The only place Ivara's ability to solo, loot, and put enemies to sleep isn't that effective is in survival, because enemies spawn rate vs their ability drop life support while solo is silly. For Nekros and Khora, generating more loot is not directly on theme but the former "possesses the battlefield" and the latter is "a mistress of entrapment" and it's not a big step to take to also say those descriptions mean they can manipulate enemies into giving them more loot.
4. People already do this anyway, Usually, the alternative to using looting abilities to get resources is to kill everything quickly so this would just bring the convo back to what a meta team comp would be except it'd just be about normal "run around and nuke the map" team compositions which I don't find that fun or engaging, but it's easy to do so a lot of people default to this, myself included sometimes.
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I have added how Hydroid's ability to drop more loot is dependent on a max of 20 tentacles, their density and how enemies can bypass them; how Nekros's ability consumes 3 corpses per second; and the frames Ivara synergizes with best and why.
On 2019-05-31 at 7:14 AM, Drasiel said:You completely forgot Atlas' ore gaze.
I am not familiar enough with Atlas' ability to know how it synergizes with other looters or how efficient it is, and since I don't ever see people using him for looting I didn't include him.
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I love working to make a team comp that works for this new mission type and also having to utilize arcanes and focus skill trees vs abilities, but I feel like there are some issues that cause it to encourage a certain tank/damage/melee meta to avoid headaches versus encouraging teamwork and skill synergization.
Visual Effects/Sensory Overload: Between nullifier bubbles, glowing bombs, conduits turning on, glowing amalgams, colorful markers, shield tethers, other tethers, and enemies blending into the scenery—there is just way too much going on and it makes this game mode amazingly inaccessible to people with visual and hearing disabilities as well as people who are easily oversensitized.
- Remove Regular Nullifier Enemies: I don't usually mind them, but between nullifier/electricitified/energy drain conduits, visual effects of conduits turning on, and glowing demolysts—they give me headaches, visual fatigue and make the HUD impossible to focus on. I have learned how to avoid them and shoot them down so they only bug me when I have to waste ammo to make sure they don't obscure my view—which starts to happen A LOT if you stay a while.
- Simplify Conduit Markers and Key Matching: I feel like all inactive conduits should just be grey and all the active conduits should be yellow, or a unique color/shape. Or just yellow with the shape. Keys can be blue dots on the overlay map and yellow boxes onscreen (like normal mobile defense) and you can use any key with any conduit. This reduces visual clutter and also makes it so people who are color blind or can't perceive color well don't have to play the "what's that color?" game or get confused when a conduit gets activated on the other side of the map and it's marker disappears. And yes I know the keys have shapes as well, but with all the visual clutter it's not that easy to discern the shapes from each other. And on that note...
- Change the Red Conduit Marker: Due to the visual clutter on the HUD I often use the overlay map to navigate and find enemies… but red enemy markers, the red demolysts marker, AND the red conduit marker ALWAYS gets me turned around and confused. Please change the color to something other than red or make conduits grey while inactive grey and yellow while active.
- Demolysts & Audio Cues: with all the visual sensory overload there is no way I am ever going to be able refocus away from the light show to focus on the audio cues. There is no logical reason as to why they should be Ivara, Ash, Wisp or Loki levels of sneaky. I feel like either they should be squishy nullifier enemies you have to search for or tanky status-removing enemies that have markers the moment they spawn. I'd prefer the latter, even if the nullifier burst bubble stayed, cus it'd make the game more accessible to deaf people, people with hearing issues, or people who can't juggle all the sensory information all the time (like me).
- Conduit Locations vs Tilesets: this mission type and its conduit locations are best suited to open/outdoor/large room tilesets connected by open air catwalks and stairways that allow players to parkour everywhere to escape mobs and to get a birds eye view of everything. The cramped spaces and hallways some conduits are located in exponentially increase the visual clutter of glowy abilities, glowy mobs and multicolored markers. If you want to prevent CC spamband let people have fun hunting/chasing demolysts, just separate tilesets by glass wall, which partitions the room WITHOUT decreasing visability and increasing visual clutter.
Rewards: Endurance runs in this game mode encourage use of arcanes, focus trees, kitguns, zaws, well forma-ed weapons, and endgame builds and skills, yet it gives no endgame rewards.
- Remove hexanon and replace with a nice chunk of Endo, a modest amount of kuva and/or a bit of toroids or something.
- I feel like there should also be Axis AND Neos on rotation C
This game mode has a lot of potential to be fun and it's almost a new endless favorite after excavations for me—but I can't handle the sensory overload and the rewards aren't worth goofing around the mode for when I have other stuff to grind, so I usually avoid it.
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1 hour ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:
To be fair, which concrete Resource is hard to get, that we need full squad of Looters?
Its probably less about hard to get resources and more likely about people wanting to minimize farming time to maximize farmable resources so that they don't have to farm the same resource all the time to build stuff they use all the time. After they're done they can then go back to playing content they enjoy—at least that is often the case with myself.
For those who have everything, have forma-ed everything, have maxed out everything, and/or do endurance runs all the time, there is probably only a few resources in the game that they're actually interested in farming and, even then, they may end up having a big enough stockpile of resources that looting abilities are inconsequential to them. Alternatively, they may just prefer to bring whatever frame they feel like and are happy using smeeta buffs.
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So I want to talk about how, with this recent update, the loot abilities no longer have any synergy with each other and how the Chesa is made irrelevant by the Smeeta. For the specific notes on this nerfy-fix, see the quote below.
On 2019-05-22 at 4:31 PM, [DE]Megan said:Fixes:
- Fixed Chesa Retrieve double dipping with Nekros’ Desecrate.
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Fixed Chesa/Desecrate double dipping with Hydroid/Khora.
- **Added info: When we added the Nightwave challenge for the Silver Grove, we encouraged a return to content that normally would have been fine. A small handful of players found an exploit and as we looked into things, we thought we fixed the issue with the new Chesa behavior that could lead to problems. We didn't. We decided to cut a bit deeper. Ivara's looting ability is now the only one that stacks with other looting because it works while alive. If a target is dead, a successful loot now happens once, no matter the source. However, multiple can attempt to loot the same body. Yes... this is different from how it previously behaved, but this is the new intended behavior.
Ability Discrepancies:
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Retrieve has a 45% chance to get ONE thing from a container or corpse every 10 seconds
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Even before the nerf, it was way better to bring a smeeta for the chance at a 120 second double pickup/affinity buff, an instance of a planet's rare resource, plus all the other buffs it can give. Looter abilities and kills per second also maximize the usefulness of the 2 minute buff, making the Chesa's maybe-once-every-10-seconds-loot-chance to steal from 6-12 things in the same timespan totally irrelevant.
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Strangledome depends on 5m-10m dome radius, 10m-28m grab radius and player's ability to kill per second with weapons or abilties
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Has better chance to drop than Nekros' ability and Nekros can clean up corpses that Khora doesn't loot. But this is not more efficient than a team of Nekros and one Khora is enough to manage spawns with how Strangledome grabs enemies.
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Swarm depends on 5m-15m base radius and 14m-42m max radius, a max of 20 tentacles to capture enemies, and players' ability to kill per second with weapons or abilities
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Guarantees a 100% drop chance with Pilfering Swarm but since it no longer stacks with anything except Ivara's Prowl it's better for spamming under spawns or camping. Camping can work well other Hydroids to increase tentacle amount and density, there's no double dipping here but more enemeis will be captured and more enemies can drop loot faster with more Hydroids.
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Desecrate depends on a range of 25 to 70 meters and 3 corpses consumed per second on top players' of kills/damage per second with weapons or abilities
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Since dismembered body parts can count as more than one corpse, Nekros's ability is actually the most efficient as you only need a bunch of corpses or dismembered body parts nearby to loot. A party of four Nekros will maximize its use at the consumption of 12 bodies per second. So there's no need to camp, wait on anyone else, or manage spawns and, like with how Hydroid synergizes best with other Hydroids now, Nekros synergizes best with other Nekros.
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Prowl (with max range & duration + a max blind rage) depends on 8 meter range and 0.8 second steal timer PER enemy. (can be 11 meters and 1.21 seconds without narrow minded) and a whole mob can take 10-20 seconds to rob.
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While Ivara's ability can double dip it doesn't really matter if Ivara can't steal from enemies in the Swarm or Strangledome (which hasn't ever worked for me) and can't steal from a group of enemies faster than Nekros, Khora, and Hydroid can kill them with their range (which doesn't need to be maximized to be efficient)
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Because of limitations with range and duration, Ivara is better off wandering away from the group and stealing from spawns before they reach other teammates. However, in practice, this throws off spawns, especially in survival missions, where enemies spawn near Ivara and then take cover in the room. It's as if they are aware of her presence but unaware of her teammates causing total havoc in another room.
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With pets, she synergizes best with a Chesa because they are both slower looters but Smeeta Charm buffs works better with Ivara's toolkit and can net a double affinity, a resource boost for two minutes, plus rare resource instances—so why bring a Chesa?
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With other warframes, she synergizes best with Pilfering Swarm or Pilfering Strangledome if the abilities are used in the choke point of a hallway with a dead end, where everyone hides around a corner in the dead end while Ivara stands at the start of the choke point and steals from the enemies. Not pub friendly nor exactly the most engaging gameplay, and only works in organized squads. This can also still throw off spawns if they aren't aware of other teammates.
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Ideas to Synergize Abilities
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Desecrate should stack with Pilfering Strangledome and Pilferming Swarm
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I don't think the nerf makes any sense as I always interpreted the stacking as Nekros using some kind of greedy necromancy ability to get more loot at the cost of health after an enemy dies while Hydroid and Khora are just stealing extra loot when enemies die. (On top of that, of course, Ivara steals from enemies before they die.)
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Retrieve should have X% chance for the Chesa to scavenge corpses, containers, and certain rare items every Y seconds or for one instance.
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The scavenging can work where it Fetch vacuums extra loot from corpses, gathers plant extracts for y seconds, vacuums extra loot from broken/unbroken containers, and lets Chesa have a chance to hunt down one rare item (ayatan sculpture/ayatan star/syndicate medallions) for y seconds. (Players could follow the chesa during the buff to see where it found a sculpture or medallion whereas stars could be the rare resource instance Chesa's create.)
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I feel this type of functionality dilutes the chances of it double-dipping a corpse by it having a chance to search for other things for tens of seconds or several minutes, depending on RNG.It happens so rarely it just is really inconsequential.
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Prowl's range and duration could be dependent on melee weapon range mods and attack speed mods on top of range and duration warframe mods:
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There are plenty of abilities that are affected by mods on other weapons so I think that the frame who can totally ignore lasers and can fire a dashwire between two mountains on the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis can use the range and attack speed mods on a weapon to pickpocket fast and far enough to keep up with other looter frames.
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Preventing double-triple-quadruple dipping on certain enemies
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If there are enemies that DE doesn't want players to get more than one drop from then they should just make it so that that enemy doesn't drop more than one or two things on death.
I think the goal should be to synergize frames and not to just nerf them to where they compete to be better at a specific role or nerf them to where using one warframe for a looting role, or a team of the same warframes, is more sensible than the rest. I love Ivara but the nerf makes me feel like I should trick out a Nekros for truly efficient farm runs with friends and clan members. Furthermore, players often build frames for their own playstyles (speedruns, solo runs, stealth runs, farming runs, endurance runs, and etc) and nerfing everything because a minority of people found the time and energy to cheese something is silly and disrespectful to the majority of people who just play how and what they want. At the end of the day, nerfing things won't stop people from cheesing certain parts of the game that they've always cheesed, it'll just slow them down while inconveniencing other players to the point they just go with the meta or give up on looting abilities and do their own thing.
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I love that Nightwave rewards new players with essential resources for learning more and understanding the game without disrupting their gameplay while also giving mid-game and end-game players a chance to get faster access to those rewards and exclusive rewards, but I think locking wolf credits behind ranking up 30 times, and a 60-70% completion rate for challenges that players are worried about feeling like a chore, is a recipe for burnout and is pitting new, old, casual, and endurance players against each other in a system that was supposed to eliminate the lack of availability of old alert rewards. I think this issue could be fixed with the following:
- Eliminate the 30 Rank system in favor of a set standing and credit pool with challenges and invaders awarding Nightwave Credits and standing that scale up with invader level and challenge difficulty (e.g. level 15 invaders drop 15 credits and 150 standing, level 75 drops 75 and 750 standing, etc)
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All rank up awards become one-time purchasable offerings.
- If people are worried about certain rewards (umbral forma, kuva) going to people who haven’t done certain quests (The Sacrifice, The War Within) then lock those rewards behind quest completion requirements.
- EDIT: content could also be locked behind the credit pool increasing with more mastery ranks like how void traces work. So MR3 players with a small credit pool can't access kuva and umbral forma when they're at their max amount of credits.
- Give end/mid-game players a fun/interesting/exciting way to sift through Nightwave lore and then use that knowledge to hunt down invaders for extra Nightwave Credits and standing.
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Keep Nightwave year round with two types of rewards:
- Normal Rewards: rewards that can be bought with standing and are always available via weekly rotations (like nitain, aura mods, helmet cosmetics, and maybe potatoes)
- Seasonal Rewards: seasonal/exclusive offerings that can be purchased once (umbral forma and cosmetics) or multiple times (like potatoes) with nightwave credits
I feel like these suggestions are more in tune to how people play Warframe and also gives people the flexibility to get the rewards they want and do challenges they want to do without demanding they burn themselves out to get them.
Warframe just is not suited to a Battle Pass system like this because there’s so much to and so much to grind whereas other games, that are suited to a Battle Pass system, only have one thing for players to do and rewards them for mixing up that one task a little bit. Nightwave really could be amazing, and I prefer it to the old alerts, but right now all I see it doing is driving a wedge into the community and burning people out on the game. I have several veteran friends who haven’t even touched the game since Nightwave started, or they are avoiding it until it ends, and so I don’t know if/when they’re coming back. Right now, Nightwave justs feels like a whole other job and none of us are getting paid for it.
Feedback on the recent looting change with Nekros/Hydroid etc.
in General
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Reposting my original comments on Ivara and her loot abilities so that I don't have to repeat myself and others reading this thread aren't confused as to what I did or did not already say.