[Digital Extremes, Sumpo Food Holdings Ltd Shares in partnership/Ownership, and the Future of Warframe.]

I read all of the post and sure it's interesting and all but I just can't get past the fact that you actually tried to write badly. You lost every bit of seriousness. Not even gonna try to discuss any of the points you made because I really dislike pretentiousness. I'm sorry.

 

[Why is the Lotus canadian?]

I just find it strange that the Lotus would be Canadian. I mean we don't know what she actually is, human, tenno, orokin, etc, but it's just weird. 

[Why is the Lotus canadian?]

It's quite distracting. I'm not sure if I like it, to be quite honest. I'd rather if she had an american accent.

[Warframe's sandbox endgame]

Except in those -single player- story driven games, there is no character or player progression. There are no RPG elements in them, as in acquiring more power, gaining levels, acquiring more items and gear, going beyond what the natural level cap is, with more gear, items, etc. That does not exist in GTA. Or Minecraft (lol). The reason why people complain and want endgame is becuase the whole point of Warframe, is to become more powerful, as the Tenno. What is the point of acquiring arcanes, for example? To acquire more arcanes by becoming stronger. That's a loop that raids and proper endgame would change.

[The biggest reason I've stopped actively playing the game]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

 

1. ESO and Eidolons are not endgame challenges. That's a fact. They may come later in the player individual progression, but they're not endgame challenges because they're not difficult. 
2. MR tests are not challenges, they can be cleared blind on the first attempt. There is no challenge in leveling new weapons or frames. There is no "hard work" in gaining MR because all you have to do is level a frame or a weapon. 
3. Nobody cares about Conclave. No, it doesn't exist to test the "I'm-a-vet-and-super-elite-warrior-fite-me" thing you said. And yes I want a challenge, I don't care if it means another thing to hit. You clearly have no clue what I'm getting at here.
4. Bosses in this game are not difficult at all. I don't think they're meant to be and I don't think DE ever meant them to be difficult, that's why they're not. They're a joke, and that's the point. If you want me to take everything off and fight a boss with absolutely no mods, and an unranked weapon, to artificially increase the difficulty, with arbitrary rules, you're delusional. You clearly missed the point of a competitive raiding MMO.
5. Railjack is not a raid, Kingpin is not a raid, those are just content patches. And as you just said "RUMORS". There are rumors, of content maybe happening, who knows when, but there are rumors, so I should be satisfied with knowing that. To be quite honest, I just realized that even attempting to argue with you was pointless because you don't know what a raid is. 

Honestly, if I were you, I'd just delete the post because there wasn't a point to it all.

[The biggest reason I've stopped actively playing the game]

45 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

The game is fiscally successful and contines to grow, how has the formulae not worked?

As for the 'competitive' aspect many players want, IMO, many more that play PvE do not want that aspect, as it drives more human conflict within a game, creating elitists and insular groups that try to 'lord over' other players. Show me one MMO with this type of 'competition' that does not attract players that want to 'beat' others in droves.

IME, the players of MMOs as a whole are terrible 'sportsman' because the anonymity allows it.

I would love for DE to add more content, for the veterans and for the new players.

IMO, the community that thinks these things need to be 'competitive' to be valuable is a small one and a hold-over from the traditional 'raiding' community.

The MMO landscape has moved on from enabling the 'l33t' to get stuff to show off to the 'n00bs', IMO/E and I am happy with that.

 

1) I never said the "formula" didn't work. I said Eidolons and Endless Onslaught hasn't worked in replacing true endgame raids. 

2) Also, as I said, yes, I'm aware you don't like to be challenged because you're afraid to realize that improvement is needed, but you conform a percentage of an audience. Your percentage might be larger, but there should be content for everyone, not just for casuals. 

3) Elitists already exist in the game. 

4) Competition, as a general concept, is about to be better than the other. Every aspect of life that has competition in it, will attract people that want to beat others. That's the whole point of competition.

5) It has not moved on from enabling the "leets" though. Look at WoW and how mythic raids in Legion went. And WoW is still the most successful MMO in the market, with the most amount of players.  

[The biggest reason I've stopped actively playing the game]

If there is anything worse than fanatics its apologists. You can say whatever you want how we are irrational because "we always want something and never are satisfied", but the one thing Destiny will always have over Warframe is the fact that Destiny has raids. Warframe does not. You're right. Endgame doesn't have to be raids. There can be something different, but if your idea of endgame is endless onslaught and eidolons, it hasn't worked and hasn't successfully replaced raids.

Is it wrong to ask DE for a reason to keep grinding mastery rank? Is it wrong to want to be challenged and get more powerful to look forward to the next challlenge? That's what the purpose of raids is, in every MMO ever made. To get stronger for the next challenge to come. We don't have that in Warframe, and if we did, it'd be a complete game. For now, like I said, is I'm just going to dedicate myself to reach MR25 and just play every new quest they release from that moment on, eventually I will lose motivation to even do so. That may be a year away, but still, it will end. Meanwhile I haven't stopped raiding actively in WoW for the past 6 years. 

Maybe this is just me begging for something or somebody to finally drag me off WoW. But I need that competitive aspect in the game for me to finally put that game down. There is nothing competitive about Warframe, only linear individual progression, and that's fine, but I just wish there was something more. Trust me, I know a lot of people would permanently switch to Warframe if there was any form of competitive raids. Even if they were small and only had two bosses, but the competition is a very big deal for a lot of people, and before you get scared and say "but I dont want hard content or items to be gated by hard to clear content": it's not all about you, there has to be content for everyone, not just the people who only wanna log in to jump around in a mission and log off. That's valid, but you conform a sector of the entire audience, you may be the largest, but there is another percentage of that audience that likes to be challenged and likes to have a reason for acquiring more items and more power.  

[The biggest reason I've stopped actively playing the game]

Delete

[The biggest reason I've stopped actively playing the game]

I think I'm at the point that if I want a shooter-looter esque MMO with challenging endgame content geared for "veterans" of the game I should play Destiny 2 and Warframe side by side. Warframe is a phenomenal game, but I think it's pretty obvious DE is very comfortable and happy with their current content formula. I don't think they have plans to release raids any longer, Dark Sectors might eventually happen, but it's just going to be another endless mode that wont yield the rewards people expect from challenging content. They will never do that because it will alienate a strong fanbase of the game: the casuals. 

My suggestion: look forward to Destiny 2, The Division 2 and Anthem, they might be good games to play along with Warframe because we're never getting actual endgame. 

[Thoughts About Future Of Warframe]

Just now, Loza03 said:

Well, they said in the Railjack reveal that they might be going to "Sectors that don't get a lot of light"

So...

They got something up their sleeves for Railjack.

Yeah, I did notice that, but Steve said Railjack is probably not coming till early next year, so that'd be 4 years since Dark Sectors were "removed" and turned into what we know as Dark Sectors today. I just don't want that same fate to happen to Trails. And I know DE is a small dev, but I just don't think they should've removed the Trials. 

[Thoughts About Future Of Warframe]

There is an obvious tendency for open world in their new content patches, which is good, I think if the roadmap is to have a decently sized open-world location on most planets, at least as a hub-sized one is good enough for me.

What I'm most concerned about is they're developing cool new content that is fun the first time you do it but doesn't really have that much substance in it. Don't get me wrong, I'm really looking forward to Railjack and Fortuna, but... where is the endgame?. Where are the Dark Sectors? Where are the trials?. It's been 3 years since they said they were re-designing Dark Sectors but we've only seen a bit of them 5 months ago and haven't heard of them since. That's concerning.

I just hope they understand the veteran players will always look forward for more motivation to keep getting more and more. Content like Railjack and Fortuna may be very fun and attractive to them, but they're looking for the "ultimate" challenge and an absolute reason for us to keep working on our Mastery Rank. 

[Is there a feedback thread for Trials?]

Yeah, it just doesn't seem like they're actively looking for feedback anymore and not even made mention of it. There is just no interest...  

[Is there a feedback thread for Trials?]

I know there was a 100 page thread for trials when they were removed but the thread was closed, so I'm not sure if they actually abandoned the idea of raids and if that's the case, then it's really sad. 

[Trade chat improvements (not another AH or billboard suggestion)]

I approve of this. 

[DE & Forums: I love this game, but I really feel there needs to be an "end goal"]

You're right, Elder Game is a much better term and kind of old school I think, not many know of it. I know, for instance, the most recent usage of that term was in Wildstar. 

And yes, I just hope that raid eventually happens, as they stated, their removal is only temporary, but as you say: in the nightmare mission-kuva syphon-sortie style of challenge, doesn't need to be too complex, too complicated; visually it can look whatever they want, as I understand, the art and visual design and modelling often costs the most, it doesn't matter as much as the substance, which would be the raid itself. Like I said before, I really feel the game really needs a raid, what would it drop and what should it reward? Not entirely sure, all I know is that, the absolute "end-game" or "elder-game" problem is solved by an ultimate challenge, to give players something to prepare for and look forward to, instead of just catching 'em all or fashion-frame, which, has no negative connotation to it at all, as I'd do it myself to, each to their own, but having that "ultimate" goal, will always beat the self imposed challenges.

And to be honest, I'd be happy if it was delivered in the form of a single raid every 8 or 10 months, but its difficulty increases every month or so, let's say Raid +0, Raid +1 (month 2), Raid +2 (month 3), same raid, just take it up a notch, it could follow the same loot pattern in endless missions, raid would have an A A B C D E F G, etc, n terms of drops and rewards. I don't know, I'm fantasizing and speculating too much here, but what I'm trying to get at is, DE has an amazing game, and they have already the ingredients to make a wonderful raid that doesn't need too much work put into it, but we really need that absolute end goal, IMO.

[DE & Forums: I love this game, but I really feel there needs to be an "end goal"]

Yeah I did, I mentioned it really early on in my OP. 

[DE & Forums: I love this game, but I really feel there needs to be an "end goal"]

10 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

 Endgame doesn't have to be connected to the story. Endgame just implies it's what you do at the "end" of progressing your character.

In the case of Warframe, since we're progressing our collection of equipment, it would be content designed for people with the best mods, maxed out frames and weapons with all the capacity they need, etc...

I like what I've seen from DE's boss fights so far, to be honest, though the numbers on them make them trivial.

Not just eidolons. Look at Kela de Thaym. Tyl Regor. Lephantis (or alternatively, Plague Star). Ambulas. They can be pretty creative in mechanics design.

They're not too complex, mind you, but I think they could dial it up a notch if they put their mind to it and really surprise us.

I agree, they don't nedto be too complex either, the point is to make something that is fun becauseit's challenging, but once you cross that line it becomes not fun at all. Think mythic difficulty in WoW, for example, last year in the raid Tomb of Sargeras, the last boss Mythic Kil'jaden has been the most nerfed boss in history. 

[Archwing Is Awful]

I agree, I really dislike archwing missions and I avoid them. But they're fixing them aparently, we will see. 

[DE & Forums: I love this game, but I really feel there needs to be an "end goal"]

15 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

With the way Warframe is designed, however, group content would not call for the Holy Trinity in order to make group play work.

Take a look at how the Eidolon meta worked out for "roles" - people typically use Volt and Chroma for specifically shooting out Synovia quickly, as well as generally dealing the damage for the group - BUT, the other group members are still capable of hitting really hard with the right weapons. Especially since Volt and Chroma boost damage for their allies, too.
Harrow is a big part of the "meta" for his 4th ability, to specifically counter the magnetic damage from when a Synovia is broken. But with the right Arcanes, this mechanic can also be completely trivialized (100% magnetic resist works!), and this is generally just so people don't have to hide in Void Form as much.
Trinity is usually brought in to help heal up the lures (though I think Oberon can heal them too?). Not sure if there's a way to prevent them from being damaged by the eidolons, unless you just need to be sure to pull them under the shield.

So, while there are indeed "support" roles in the main meta, that's just because of how the eidolon fight was designed, and one way players decided on countering those specific mechanics for speedruns. Not because the group needs support frames to keep from dying. (note: everybody has access to gear restores, and enemies often drop red/blue orbs)

It wouldn't be tough to build a 4-man group with no healing frames and still have an interesting boss-fight encounter in other content. Warframe co-op play could instead be objective-focused. Maybe the group needs to split up. Have somebody go hack some consoles while the rest run through a gauntlet (and even use those consoles to provide assistance to the rest of the group from a distance, like opening doors, wiping out the especially tough rooms, etc). Maybe you have to defend multiple objectives at once, too far away to just run back and forth between them (without specifically using Volt or Nova, for example). The possibilities in Warframe do not have to be limited by the age-old Trinity, as this isn't a standard RPG.

Typically when content does call for specific frames or specialties, it's something like needing a Snow Globe to help defend an objective, or needing good CC on eximus units so the group doesn't get melted by one crazy-strong bombard, or using the Volt shield to help block damage while rezzing a team-mate. Too many studios fail to be creative in content design and just use the tried-and-true.

DE doesn't do tried-and-true.

You're right, it shouldn't need to be limited to the trinity since Warframe is different and something a lot more interesting could done in that regard, and if they weren't a lot of balancing would have to be done and that would create a lot of headaches not only for the devs but to the players as well.

What you say though, is completely true, but I still believe that there should be 2 or 3 bosses in those trials, that while don't require a healer or support, at least provide a challenge, maybe a mechanic that if done wrong penalizes your damage or having to parkour while shooting at it, who knows, I'm no expert in this and maybe I just can't think of anything other than WoW when it comes to raids, but at least we agree that raids in this game would be a fantastic thing to have and a great end-goal to look forward to. I mean, the motivation could literally just be the requirement to enter: you require a certain amount of mastery rank or maybe a key given by the previous raid that drop in equal fragments and take 8 weeks to obtain and that's why people would do it and look forward to the next one, while the bosses and completion of the raid drops Forma, Catalysts, maybe a prime weapon blueprint and cosmetics. 

[DE & Forums: I love this game, but I really feel there needs to be an "end goal"]

18 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Well, I do want to see end-game content, I have issues with your take on it, which does sound like just copy-pasta from WoW... My main beefs from your feedback is as follows:

Well, to be clear, the raid I'm describing, yes, it sounds a lot like World of Warcraft, but every MMORPG has raids that sound like this. The concept is the same, but how is implemented depends on the game and their own combat and mechanic systems.

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No thanks to this. I'd rather have strategic objectives that push teams to work together (or split up) based on objectives we already see in the game, with the kind of group-play that is already encouraged, allowing the normal solar map to actually train players for the end-game.
Also, the holy trinity crap gets honestly VERY droll and is way over-used.

Strategic objectives and splitting up: that's the idea. But you need bosses to make a trial or raid feel like a raid. The point of a raid is to obtain the treasures inside a fortress and is guarded by dangerous and powerful enemies. The reason why raid is group content is because these enemies are bigger and have a higher level than you, the holy trinity is not overused, it's literally how people ovecome conflict and/or challenges in the real world, but instead of a tank, a DPS or a healer, you have a team of people with different knowledge collaborating so they can solve those challenges from different ends. One provides support while others directly attack the conflict. It's a concept that transcends MMOs, it can't be overused. 

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No to all of this. I do not want the game to have a gear treadmill that forces old content to be obsolete. Power creep is absolutely BAD for content in my book.

We already have power-creep though. And as far as I know, old content can't be made obsolete due to alerts, BUT, I know that a week into the game, half way thorough the star chart I was already ignoring most of the alerts that happened before phobos, unless they had endo. Content is going to be avoided by players with more playtime naturally, it's nearly impossible to create organic-immortal content to be fair, although DE have made a great job in that regard. 

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The only reward system that will ever work for Warframe are cosmetic rewards (skins, sigils, orbiter/dojo decorations, armor sets, operater suits, etc) that exclusively come from the end-game content. This is what creates incentive, so long as the cosmetics look good. The reward system also shouldn't be RNG loot drops, but come from a merchant who sells the goods in return for some sort of standing or unique resource that's rewarded specifically by the end-game content. This standing or resource should be universal across all forms of end-game content, allowing players to hoard it if there ends up being cosmetic rewards that don't appeal to them.

Cosmetics are good rewards I agree, but the point of making proper raids would be defeated if they only give cosmetics, since the point is to motivate players to "keep going" because there is going to be something else in the future. 

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The only non-cosmetic rewards I would find acceptable are: pre-built versions of Forma, Orokin Catalysts/Reactors, Exilus Adapters, Ayatan Sculptures, and perhaps even more rare resources (Orokin Cells, Argon Crystals, Mutagen Samples, etc) - then people who don't "have everything" can still get something out of without power creep.
It would be even better if the content is cycled/changed regularly, like every 2 months as you say, so that these rewards become limited-time-only, allowing for them to feel even more special to those who did get them

This is good, I agree, those would be great enough rewards.

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Also, the end-game content should have absolutely NO bearing on the game lore. It should be considered optional content that players aren't required to complete in order to experience the game story. This is one of my biggest beefs with MMORPGs.

Well, I agree and disagree, with fear of making another WoW comparision, Blizzard has "LFR" so casual players can enjoy the game's main arc without having join a high-end guild. But, raids in Warframe wouldn't have to be THAT challenging, think something like the level 3 sortie but taking one step forward, you need potatos in your weapons and frames to survive and stuff like that, but it would be clearable by pugs, but group play with a guild should feel better and more satisfying. 

And even then, you don't need to have the main storyline in it, it could be syndicate storylines or something on the side, but having the raids tied to story would only enhance them. 

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Final note for this point: I do not want weekly lockout, "Let's meet 10 hours a week, clan!" content. Not one bit. Warframe is a casual game, and the end-game content, even if it's aimed at "hardcore" veteran players, needs to account for that. At the most, any kind of end-game content should be 1 hour runs or shorter, cut up into 10-20 minute mission/objective segments.

I agree, the raids shouldn't take longer than 35 minutes to complete, and not much longer than an hour the first time; but the weekly lockout mostly means that, since the rewards were to be good, you can't farm them forever since you will make them obsolete very quick and new players would struggle to find people to do them with. 

[DE & Forums: I love this game, but I really feel there needs to be an "end goal"]

1 minute ago, LupisV0lk said:

For there to be the end game that people clamour for, we'd need some massive balancing updates and then people would be mad when said end game posed a challenge.

Right, that's fair, there'd have to be a lot of balancing, but generally what I meant by challenging just content that requires group collaboration, that it would require a lot of new gear to solo or under-man. That's what I meant.

[DE & Forums: I love this game, but I really feel there needs to be an "end goal"]

Just now, FierceRadiance said:

From your description, it sounds a lot like you're advocating for "World of Warframe".

Just saying...

Right, but I'm not asking for a big world or... like, quests in that big world. All I'm saying, the "holy-trinity" concept of MMO-RPG raids is a good concept, the idea of a group effort and contribution to defeat an enemy that is bigger and more powerful than you works well and it's not only in World of Warcraft. I mean destiny has some form of it, and nobody can deny that's probably the only good part of that game. And aside from the game-play aspect of "group effort", also the motivation is a big thing, the idea of "i'm doing this raid to prepare for the next one" and so on and so forth. That gives you an end-goal and I feel Warframe still needs that. There are goals in the game, you can pretty much do whatever you want, however you like, you can just dedicate yourself to fashion-frame and have a hell of a time, but for some others, an actual end-goal would motivate them greatly and would help the game grow even more. 

[Free platinum a week]

As great as that sounds it would ruin a big part of the game which is the economy. You can't just do that in a game like this. 

[DE & Forums: I love this game, but I really feel there needs to be an "end goal"]

The game is fantastic, I took a 3 year hiatus and recently came back after the Tenno-con announcement and I've had a lot of fun, bought the prime un-vaulting and I'm buying the prime access next week. Very excited. I'm still finishing all the quests and I just did The War Within last night and god damn was it good. I love everything about the lore of the game. It's insanely good. There is still a lot to go, but I'm afraid to get there because even though I have a lot of fun I can't help but ask every time I make a new frame or a weapon: "what's the point" I know the point is to farm, to farm more, but it feels somewhat empty and I'm afraid to get to a point in which I just don't feel like doing it anymore. 

I know this game isn't considered an MMO by a lot of people and I think even by the Devs, but it looks a lot like one or rather, feels a lot like one. I play WoW a lot and have played WoW for a long time, and while I'm on a break right now after raiding the entirety of the last expansion "Legion", i'm excited for the new one coming in 2 weeks. But what keeps WoW players going is the knowledge of there being a "raid" coming, so that motivates them to do the current raid, gear up, do mythic+ dungeons and gear up, obtain new stuff, new levels in their weapon or legendary items and get ready for the next raid. 

I really feel we need that in Warframe. Now I know there was Law of Retribution and it was removed, mostly because neither the players wanted to do it and because they didn't like it. But with a constant influx of small raids, it would motivate the veterans and high end players GREATLY to keep playing and playing, and to think the game has done anything but grow without them is impressive, I think with proper raids it would become one of the best games in the MMO market ever made. Without a doubt.

IMO, a good Warframe raid would need:

a) a unique, non-procedurally generated small map, with unique visuals.

b) gauntlet rooms that act as mini-bosses

c) at least 3 challenging bosses that are visually impressive, have an interesting "mechanic" and ideally big, like Lephantis. 

d) You'd need someone with a tanky-frame and a healing frame that can keep the bosses attention, while the other 6 people make sure they clear the waves of adds while doing damage to the boss itself. (For the aggro mechanic I'd have the "tank" hit a certain spot added in the boss that doesn't do damage, but "pisses" him off, so the Boss will stay on him at all times)

e) there need to be big, good rewards. Something like, maybe prime frame/weapon blueprints, a small scenario-quest given as a reward to obtain a really good-unique, maybe riven mod. And also a main quest that, at the end of it, it will give you maybe a big prime frame or weapon, cosmetic, you name it, but it require you to complete the raid 8 times, with a weekly lockout, so 2 months. 

 f) Since this would act as the absolute end-game, maybe have it only open to MR18+, maybe a certain amount of Focus acquired, star chart completed, etc. You name it. Point is, the player would've have to explore almost absolutely every aspect of the game before attempting this "challenging" end-game content.

I know I may seem entitled, but I'm sorry if I do so, I don't mean to, I just really love this game, but the thought of having something like this in the game makes me excited even though it doesn't exist. I think it would elevate the game to something never seen before, people would come back, newcomers will be even more excited and the game will grow, I'm sure. I know I'm a nobody-no name noob that thinks he knows it all, I don't, this was just my opinion after all. 

 

[Archwing is very un-fun.]

Yeah I haven't modded it up, but I just feel like interception or even exterminate fits in the archwing design.... Underwater missions in Neptune for example seem like a drag and generally feel like I just don't want to do them at all.