Redthirst
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Posts posted by Redthirst
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33 minutes ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:
Grab friends/clan mates get in a preset group and everyone handicap yourself to make the game harder and run stuff you enjoy.
There you go difficult "end game" content requiring teamplay.
Lets be real random pugs means no communication or cordination with folks trying to spam through at lightspeed. Pugging isn't what you are after clearly.
Now they could say allow players to choose a difficulty setting when starting a mission. Thus letting you get a challenge as an option. But if most folks don't choose to pug that difficulty you will probably be alone most of the time.
But then what is the point of grinding for anything in this game and trying to make builds if the only way to get challenge is handicapping yourself. And I'm not sure how it works now with the armor changes, but in the past it was pretty hard to handicap yourself without everything just becoming a massive bullet sponge. I remember me and my clan doing Law of Retribution with MK-1 Bratons for a change, and all it really did was just make every enemy into a massive bullet sponge that takes a lot of effort to kill. It didn't really change anything beyond that, it's just "guess we'll have to shoot Vay Hek for 20 minutes to kill him". Maybe it's better now, though.
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10 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:
You can handicap yourself if difficulty is your end game. And the game has multiple modes to spend your time in.
What if my endgame is "content that has you actually working and relying together with other people"? Can we have some actual co-op content this (ostensibly) co-op game?
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3 hours ago, Voltage said:
And this is why all new content ends up shallow and trivial over time. You like the game like that? Because I feel like it's slowly killing the game over time.
And that is also why they have to constantly add new gamemodes that end up being abandoned very fast. You just can't have any depth to keep people playing, so the game gets wider with each update, but remains as shallow as a puddle.
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23 hours ago, Tyreaus said:
Replace it with dealing damage or something independent like just flat out landing shots, I would say, since kill requirements can make higher-end stuff much more difficult. Which is probably fine for vets who want that difficulty, but that does include the Rank 1 Excal who's brushing up against Ceres with a Mk-1 Braton and now can't use his abilities because things aren't dying.
One must also be careful not to create more of a one-man army situation. If cooldowns decrease with kills or damage, all it takes is one person to rush through a level and kill things with their weapons, and thus their abilities, and leave their team with neither energy gain nor things to do.
Yeah, damage is probably a better way to go about it.
As for people rushing forward, it would still be better than what we have now, where people use overpowered abilities to rush forward and clean everything. At least under the new system, they would have to switch to using their guns every time they use their abilities. You can also make it so the ability regeneration effect is stronger when you're around allies, so if you're rushing ahead you'll get less cooldown reduction from damage than if you stick together with your team.
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On 2019-10-21 at 11:28 AM, Lost_Cartographer said:
And we can place all these problems squarely at the feet of energy availability. Until Trinity, the orb pick ups made decent enough restrictions. Then it all went down the $#!%%er when she showed up with bless.
Yeah, it's somewhat ridiculous how many issues of the game can be traced back to how little restrictions there are on energy.
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16 hours ago, Tyreaus said:
I'm also kind of playing devil's advocate because I am, personally, not a fan of cooldowns. I feel like it doesn't encourage players to do stuff in-between casts, so people are liable to just sit around and wait. I've seen that happen with players who spam Saryn's or Banshee's 4: they run out of energy to do it, energizing dash, and then just...sit there and wait for the "cooldown" to end. And on a related note: adding cooldowns sounds like a nerf. Compare, for example, the melee rework that's taking out the combo meter on regular attacks: it's adding a bunch of other things that it's much more like a rework, despite it nerfing power in one sense.
Add long cooldowns, but reduce them for killing enemies. So if you want to keep casting your skills you have to move forward and kill enemies with your weapons. That way, waiting is no longer a viable option - you can do it, but it's going to take a while and you are much better off moving forward and killing enemies.
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10 minutes ago, Reakacemrz said:
i guess no matter what de do there will alwayse be a problem if they nerf warframe it will feel weak and if they nerf enemy warframe will fill over powered
the game is already in a big loop naaaaaaa what ever happens its not like any thing big like changing mechanics of all frame or enemy will ever occur
Warframes can feel powerful without being able to kill entire rooms of enemies with absolutely no limits. Warframes still felt massively powerful when the game just dropped, before all the power creep. Now they aren't just powerful, they are overpowered.
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12 minutes ago, Reakacemrz said:
it means make enemy aware of the surrounding more
Which doesn't mean anything when they get killed or controlled the moment they get within 40 meters of the player.
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14 minutes ago, Aldain said:
That's why I stated that it is more the problem of the damage scaling, but you're right on the point of powerful abilities not having much impact because of how commonly used they are.
But that does also vary from ability to ability, Excalibur's Exalted Blade for example is powerful (even insanely so I'll admit) but it takes far more effort from a player to wipe a room clean compared to say, a Sayrn or a Mesa.
Damage types and status are also relevant factors to consider as well, a major reason why Sayrn is so strong is because she naturally reduces both armor and health with Corrosive/Viral, meanwhile until Ember's rework showed up she was considered useless past 30 because Heat damage was terrible, but now DE is having to consider giving her armor melt to be relevant.
I'd personally put my investment into something like damage 3.0 first then go after outlier Warframe abilities, but that's just my view on the subject.
Yeah, I can definitely see that. The bottom line is that it's not about Saryn or Mesa or any specific frame. The problem is with the system. As long as we have the systems that we have now, the game is going to remain unbalanced.
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I also feel like DE is in a bind because the game has no endgame that could keep people occupied, so they have to constantly make new content to retain their playerbase. So it will be hard for them to just step away and fix the game, because even a couple of months without new content would make people riot. There's just no replay value in Warframe at all, so without a constant stream of new content people will have nothing to do. But ultimately, something has to be done. Even if it takes them years to do this remake of the game in the background, it has to happen.
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It's good to see people bring up this issue more and more. I've said it years ago and I say it again - there's no balance in Warframe until our energy can be limitless. You just can't balance around power spam, that alone kills any and all attempts at balance that DE might try.
But the problem, as many have stated above, is that DE seems to have no vision at all. This has been a problem for years, and I don't think they've ever acknowledged it. Sure, they might nerf a frame or a weapon here and there, but they never acknowledge the fact that the game is severly broken and unbalanced at its core and that all the balance issues ultimately stem from those core issues.
3 minutes ago, Aldain said:Yep, though I'd say more than anything it comes not just from things like Warframe abilities being able to stop enemies completely, but the current exponential/stacking damage system as a whole.
It's both, really. We have abilities that can clear entire rooms full of enemies and those that can disable rooms of enemies. Both can be balanced and fun. What makes them broken is that we can spam them with zero limits. Having a ridiculously strong ability that you can use every once in a while feels impactful and rewarding. Having that same ability be spammable all the time just cheapens the entire experience.
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8 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:
Are there some games that keep people invested even though its PvE only?
"Hardcore" PvE games often do that(though not for everyone), I'm talking about games like Left4Dead and Payday 2. Warframe is very far from being hardcore.
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8 hours ago, Tinklzs said:
Is it much harder than doing it with others? (I haven't played, so I don't know much of anything about Destiny).
Depends on the raids. Some of the raids(like Leviathan) would be impossible without a team. Since there are encounters where you need to have your team split up and assume different roles.
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26 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:
I think new mission types can be considered endgame, many of the missions we have already can be considered endgame, if they tweak them a bit. We sadly only have one correct normal mission variant that could be a form of endgame.
Because Warframe appeals to many different players and playstyles, they can't have a "raid style" be the only endgame which means we need different forms of endgame..
If you like survivals and exterminates, the endgame for that is ESO. However, what is lacking is ESO is a reason to continue past zone 8 (so rebalancing is in order) and the rewards are.. okay, they could be better (incentive to do them again). Fix those and you have a form of endgame for those that like survival and exterminate.
Disruption has the chance to be a form of endgame. Needs better rewards........ and that's it really, because it has scaling rewards - just the rewards are pretty bad.
So if you like a certain mission type or style of play that revolves around a mission type, then DE could add a 'super" endless version of that, with cosmetic rewards for each to show you've done it - and good rewards so you want to come back to it. Some player sees you have a cool syndana or skin or something and wants to know where to get it, might give them a reason to try out a game=type they otherwise wouldn't try.
I agree with that, and I think it's important that we keep that in mind whenever we are discussing endgame. DE tries to cater to many different types of players, so when we are talking about an endgame activity we should be talking about several of them, each catering to a specific group of players.
Problem is, DE has struggled for years to get us good endgame in any form, so I don't have much faith in them being to able to put out multiple types of endgame. And lets not even get started on maintaining it all.
19 minutes ago, rhuug said:but i have disagree again with calling ESO endgame, i am sorry but a timer isn't enough to make regular exterminate into that kind of content, mix it up some more and the i'd be willing to consider it. also endless mode are usually just a chore, raids are cool also because they offer closure i wouldn't like them if they where an endless loop; sure i might play a raid multiple times in a row but that's way different
Honestly, I think ESO would've been much better if they just copied Rifts from Diablo 3. That way, people can choose how difficult their missions are, and then beating one mission allows you to increase your difficulty further.
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40 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:
In a way that's what it is for me too (although for me, this doesn't grasp my whole definition). But I'd like something that requires a bit of teamwork, considering it's all over Warframe trailers (including the most recent CGI one) that teamwork is vital and everywhere in Warframe. What it excludes is a nukeframe off camera pressing one button to destroy the map, while getting yelled at by their mom to come do chores or dinner is ready.
Yeah, teamwork is also an important part of the endgame for me, I just didn't include it because I was already talking about raids, and raids by definition are a social activity.
Another large hurdle when it comes to endgame is that Warframe is a game that tries to cater to everyone, so the playerbase is really diverse. And while it's good in a way, it also means that endgame will never please everyone. Case in point - people demanding that everything should be done solo. in MMORPGs you don't really see people complain about needing a party to do raids, because it's par for the course. But in Warframe there are many people who are outraged at any activity that requires them to play with other players.
21 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:Redthirst sums it up perfectly in my book:
With game balance being so fundamentally broken it's impossible to design anything remotely engaging without mitigating our loadouts (via nullies, scripted boss fights with total skill immunities etc.) and thus basically invalidating our progress, which this game is 99% about (aka "the grind").
They can kick the can as long as they want (their own words): Without some core redesigns (enemy scaling, energy / skill costs...) Warframe will never have a satisfying endgame.
The problem is that they've kind of painted themselves in a corner here. The game doesn't have a lot of replayability, so they have to constantly keep pumping out new content, or the people will quickly lose interest in the game. So they can't just come out and say "We're going to take the next 6 months and redesign the core systems, which means that we won't be able to pump out new content every few weeks", because the game has almost no replaybility, it needs constant content injections or it simply dies.
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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Puckish_Rogue125 said:
Destiny doesn't have endgame. It has a loot treadmill with one or two activities to run until the next expansion same as wow or star wars or any other mmorpg. And desiny's "endgame" has not been satisfying since vault of glass. Warframe is also not a game like destiny or wow or really any of the other live games on the market.
Well, raids in Destiny are still far more of an endgame than Warframe has. Maybe I'm the weird one, but I enjoyed raiding in Destiny even when I had zero interest in getting any loot. It's just fun for me to do an activity that requires special preparations and teamwork and is different from the rest of the game. That's what endgame is for me - an activity that takes some investment to play and that is different from what came before.
Hell, I was enjoying raids in WF the same way(albeit they were less fun because it was almost impossible to fail them, so there were no tense moments at all) until they were removed.
I understand that many people will disagree, I just found it weird for the poster I've quoted to claim that PvE games have no endgame in general(when the opposite is true, seeing how PvP games usually never have an endgame as that would make the game actively worse by fracturing the playerbase)
And I still stand by my point about abilities - they are at the core of all the issues with the game. It'd be impossible for them to design something challenging withour either removing all this cheese that we have or balancing the game around it(which would basically make cheese as the only way you can play the game at higher levels).
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On 2019-07-05 at 11:41 PM, --DSP--Jetstream said:
Game is mostly pve, no matter what mode they bring up theres always a way to cheese the braindead ai and poof theres goes your endgame.
Theres a reason why almost all popular online game is pvp because pve has its limits. Unless de create some super smart ai that can keep you engaged and not get bored after playing the new mode a few times.Except there are many PvE games with satisfying endgame(most MMORPGs and games like Destiny).
The main issue isn't PvE, it's how unbalanced Warframe abilities are.
PvE games tend to have a balance - they give players strong abilities, but limit their use, so you can use them in tough situations, but you have to be thoughtful about it. Warframe utterly fails at limiting you, because energy system is pretty broken. You can cut your energy costs by 75% and have unlimited supply of energy if you so desire.
So, for example, in Destiny there are Supers, which are strong abilities that can clear a lot of enemies really fast. They are really strong, but take a while to charge, so you have to use them strategically. In comparison, in Warframe you have abilities that are about as powerful, but you can spam them without thinking.
This makes it very hard to make any challenging content in Warframe, because how can you make challenging enemies when people will just wipe them by spamming abilities over and over? Or just keeping them CCed permanently.
It's not a problem with PvE or bad AI, it's the problem of how much cheese the game has. When raiding in Destiny, the game would throw a bunch of enemies at you and you have to be careful, because while your characters are strong, you still can be overwhelmed.
When I was raiding in Warframe(particularly LoR), the game threw a bunch of enemies at us, and they would just get crowd controlled forever. Because there are no cooldowns and energy is limitless, so there was no reason not to spam those really powerful abilities.
And that is what makes endgame hard to achieve in Warframe, just the ungodly amounts of cheese that let players bypass any challenge that the game has. And the only way to fix it is to redesign the entire ability system from the ground-up. Either add proper energy limits or cooldowns, because there is no other way.
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1 minute ago, JackHargreav said:
These are all changes for me that doesn't have any significance, so I don't really get some of the complaints but I guess that's just there no matter what. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The complains are mainly coming from the fact that some stances have horrible animations compared to quick melee, and now that quick melee is gone we are forced to use stances. Autoblock is also a bit wonky from what I can tell.
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It's really sad that polearms are now basically pointless, since not being locked into animation was the main reason to use them.
1 hour ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:But now it has come to pass, and now Staves with their superior mobility in the awesome Clashing Forest moveset are the new kings!
Tell me more
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Can we have old quick melee animations back? I'm using Lesion with Shimmering Blight and the basic combo is bloody horrendous. Instead of the old quick melee, which was fluid and allowed you to keep moving as you killed enemies, I now have this awkward combo that locks me into animation for no reason. I deal less damage and have to watch enemies kill me while I do weird animations. Either make combos actually fluid, or bring back quick melee please.
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I second that. The reason I use polearms is because they let me move at normal speed while attacking, without locking me into animations. Stances do the opposite of that, for whatever reason. But if I wanted to be locked into animation then I'd just use a heavy blade . It baffles me that in a game about fast and fluid mobility most of the stances lock you into slow and clunky attack animations.
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Trials(raids) are dead and buried, Dark Sectors to return(have nothing to do with the original concept of Dark Sectors), Hydroid Prime trailer in the making, new Eidolon stuff, new Grineer unit for Planes.
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15 minutes ago, staticblade said:
Your stuff gets saved if you do an incursion or a bounty, after you complete something in POE loot gets saved, then you can click abort mission.
If you cant do an incurion, you will have to go to the gate to Cetus.
Except that the post I quoted clearly states that returning to your Landing Craft also saves it.
And going to the gates doesn't work when you're in a group. And since there are no incursions during the night, hunting Eidolons with a random group is a risk, as you can become a hostage and have to either wait for your group to want to extract, or forfeit your rewards.
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Seriously, it was said that rewards would be saved if you abort mission through the menu.
But none of it is true. If you want your stuff to be saved you have to run all the way back to Cetus. Playing in a group and want to quit while your group wants to stay? Well too bad, you either have to wait until your group is done and wants to leave, or forfeit all of your rewards.
Here's a quote for reference:
On 10/13/2017 at 1:00 AM, [DE]Megan said:Saving your Progress on the Plains happens in a number of ways - most of which are automatic!
1) If you return to Cetus through the gates at any point, your mission concludes and all progress is saved.
2) If you return to your Landing Craft via the escape menu.
3) All progress is automatically saved on completing Bounties or Incursions.
4) Fishing, Mining, or using consumables results in a specific save of that content (fish caught, minerals extracted, consumables used).
Why we cant have endgame content
in General Discussion
Posted
Yeah, it's obviously the issue of power creep and non-existent balance, and that's why we can never have any challenge. I'd say changing the way energy system works would allow for some actually challenging content, because a lot of the challenge goes out of the window due to spammable abilities.
Trials were actually fun. They weren't challenging(because, again, ability spam), but they required coordination and decent group dynamics. They didn't really fail, they had a dedicated community, they were just pulled because DE broke them with every update. DE also absolutely failed at integrating them into the game(there was basically no way that a new player would be able to tell that Trials existed at all. They weren't even visible on the star chart, and IIRC, the game never even mentioned them to you, or maybe it sent one inbox message at best).