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Koto

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Posts posted by Koto

    Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?

    in Warframes

    Posted

    31 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

    I can't tell how much of your post is sarcasm but it is misleading. Of the meta frames for eidolons Rhino, Volt, and Octavia can all one-shot eidolons. At this point we should just remove all buff frames.

    ur right. we should nerf those frames too.
    another really cool (btw hahaa) idea ive had is: the amount of fish u catch should scale ur fishing spear dmg. i wanna throw my spear at the eidolon with my fishing spear to see what happens after an entire night of long hard fishing. i wanna widdle down the eidolon until my eyes bleed, but i cant do that when meta frames are one shotting the eidolon no problem. 

    Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?

    in Warframes

    Posted · Edited by Koto.

    can we nerf chroma while we're at it. chroma can still one shot eidolons, so i cant savor this awesome fight with strobelights everywhere. allowing players to self dmg and charge vex armor through self dmg is not what i conceive as fun. boy oh boy i love plains of eidolon. i wish de would nerf all the meta frames in existence so i can sit in my ship or dojo playing legos all day. 

    Dread Vs Paris Prime Endgame Analysis: The Pp Is Trash.

    in Weapons

    Posted · Edited by Kotoge

    So if you, or anyone else reading this thread, is wondering how Puncture/Paris can still lose to Slash/Dread at level 95+, it's because of diminishing returns on the part of the armor, not the Paris/Puncture itself. Armor value of 5,000 might block 80% or so* of the damage, but armor of 10,000 will only block 90% or so*.

     

    *these numbers I have not run yet

     

    "The main point I'm trying to get across here is that Armor Scaling causes greater diminishing-returns-over-time on armor modifiers than not-armor modifiers"

    That's what I said here :c

    Meh

    Dread Vs Paris Prime Endgame Analysis: The Pp Is Trash.

    in Weapons

    Posted

    And your assertion that the Dread is always better than Paris P? I found a situation where that's blatantly false: fighting bosses, none of whom have even close to 6500 armor that the Dread needs to equal the Paris

    I didn't catch this earlier, but the whole point of the original post was to address how the PP falls short in the endgame. 

    Dread Vs Paris Prime Endgame Analysis: The Pp Is Trash.

    in Weapons

    Posted

    Yes there is a difference, but it hardly matters since both happen. Puncture/Corrosive/Radiation gain both the damage bonus and the ignores-armor-partially bonus, at the same time. I've tested this myself on Bombards

     

    Paris Prime, modded for Viral on one test and Radiation on another test. Same Bombards, same level. Under your theory, they should be dealing the same amount of damage, because both are +75% against an Alloy-armored Cloned Flesh target. And yet Radiation damage greatly outclassed the Viral damage

     

    Granted, I did this before the Simulacrum existed, so why doesn't one of us go test this a second time?

    Alright I see your point, and no I didn't test it lol.

    Dread Vs Paris Prime Endgame Analysis: The Pp Is Trash.

    in Weapons

    Posted

    armor scaling is broken.

    Yes! Thank you!

     

    EDIT: I would like to mention one thing however. I will admit that I did not read the entire post in it's entirety but rather skimmed through, but I didn't see this brought up so I'm going to say it. Paris prime has ONE advantage over dread. It's puncture type is good against heavy gunners- so it doesn't NEED corrosive damage as much to deal with them, due to that it can throw on radiation viral instead and hit BOTH types of heavy armor (bombard and heavy gunner) pretty hard. In comparison dread can only choose one or the other to hit super hard. Ofc in anything serious people are going to be running 4xCP anyways so this wouldn't matter, but in solo play Paris Prime has the advantage of being able to kill everything about equally as well (including trash mobs since bow damage values are so high, the damage types dont really matter honestly).

    The finicky thing about a jack-of-all trades is that while it does specialize in every area, it doesn't specialize very well in any area either. IMO, two polar strong-arm weapons, that specialize in diff areas, will carry you further than two jack-of-all trade weapons. In a vacuum example, (corrosive + heat along with radi + cold) > (corrosive + cold along with radi + toxin). When I used a radi PP in a T4S, it was just dreadful trying to take down a HG. 

     

    I think you're making a logical fallacy of trying to judge the bows far past values the game actually expects you to fight (80+). Running both bows in Law of Retribution with four Corrosive Projections and Viral damage builds, both bows were dealing instant kills against level 90 enemies

    I agree, but there was a time when r5s were plenty in the T4S rotations. I often preferred to just hop in a game solo for 60mins than to bring up a pug squad that usually begins to whine at around 40mins, thereby prompting to leave soon or asap. What brought this up was a thread in the Players Help Players section discussing how to go deep into a T4S solo, which brought a bunch of interesting memories for me when WF was in its honeymoon phase for me since I did a lot of T4S. 

     

    Everyone knows slash > everything else. Why is this even a debate

    You forgot the additional damage you get with the Dread from "slash procs":

     

    "Slash damage's unique status effect is Bleed, a DoT (damage-over-time effect) that inflicts 35% of your weapon or power's base damage per tick (7 ticks in 6 seconds) as Finishing damage. Therefore, this proc damage bypasses shields and is not affected by armor or enemy resistances. Multiple instances of Bleed may be stacked on the same target. If the proc occurs off of a critical hit, the Bleed ticks are also multiplied by critical damage multiplier."

     

    http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Slash_Damage

     

    Just one dual stat elemental mod is enough to get the status chance slightly above 50% with the Dread. I run a "Viral" build on my Dread and most shots proc either viral or slash which really helps against those high level heavy units once you can not one-shot them anymore. "Slash" procs add a SUBSTANTIAL 100% armor ignore damage bonus to the Dread.

    I did not address the slash topic much since this was an analysis on the bows, however I do disagree against the general consensus that slash is anything significant. Slash ignores armor, sure, but it's also affected by armor reduction. Also, relying on a static non-scaling DoT subject to armor's DR to kill high HP targets is just unrealistic. It's helpful, but it's in no way any means reliable. 

     

    So because the Paris Prime does slightly less damage than the Dread at lvl 95, you consider it "trash"?

     

     

     

    Are you serious?

    The key thing you're suppose to obtain in the corrosive bow vs HG is that @95 you start to see the PP past its peak or optimal point. Further down the road against 95+ enemies, the PP will fall behind more and more. 

     

    And no not really, haha. I still see the potential fact that PP can out-perform the Dread against the Corpus faction (since Robotic enemies have very few effective and synergistic counters), but presently there's nothing worthwhile that involves high level Corpus enemies either, so that's like a "don't care" situation. That was a rather extreme statement, but you know.. oh well.

     

    @OP: To be totally honest, I may have zoned out a little whilst reading your post, so I may have missed you mentioning this, but how were you calculating Armor damage bonuses? I ask only because you seemed to imply several times that you accounted for them only as damage buffs/debuffs, yet you seem to have neglected the actual armor quantity buff/debuff they provide. In the case of puncture damage, that flavor's portion of the damage would flat-out ignore 50%/15%, depending on armor type, of the armor present. In any event, I thank you for posting this, as it made me realize that I never actually have thought about which of the two bows was, qualitatively, better than the other.

    "Note: Each one of these values have been tested personally in the Simulacrum, and checked at least twice, even for the red crits on the PP :\, to make sure the values were consistent. I did NOT just grab a yellow crit and math my way for the red crits. "

     

    Except I'm pretty sure there is, on the grounds that I don't think OP understands how Puncture damage works

     

    I didn't see this in OP's math, but I might have missed it. Point is, Puncture is more effective against armor than Slash is against flesh. Slash confers a +25% bonus to Grineer, while Puncture confers a +XX% bonus damage while also ignoring XX% of their armor. This adds up much faster against Ferrite, though Alloy will start to dull the sting of the Paris towards the "super-high endgame" (i.e. running Law of Retribution without four Corrosive Projections)

    (XX = 15% for Alloy and 50% for Ferrite)

    I would ask the same to you. Puncture dmg does not ignore armor. The conventional method of bypassing armor would be dealing finisher dmg. Here are some quotes that might be of some interest to you: 

     

    "The Dread will falloff earlier than the PP while the PP will peak longer, however the rate at which the Dread falls-off is lower than the rate at which the PP falls-off. "

    "The important concept to grasp here, and not the precision of the formula, is: ETD = (Dmg on Cloned Flesh) + (Dmg on Armor)"

    "The main point I'm trying to get across here is that Armor Scaling causes greater diminishing-returns-over-time on armor modifiers than not-armor modifiers"

    "the dmg retained on c.flesh begins to shadow the dmg retained on the armor"

    Dread Vs Paris Prime Endgame Analysis: The Pp Is Trash.

    in Weapons

    Posted

    TL;DR. Versus armored targets: The Dread is King; Paris Prime is trash.
     
    I've looked through a lot of old threads debating Dread vs PP, and none of them provided solid evidence as to why one is better than the other. The most acceptable answers, imo, was a logical approach by comparing and contrasting the weapons with the Damage 2.0 Damage Modifiers. You can look at it at face-value and conclude that the puncture based PP should top the Dread in the presence of any armor due to its bonus +50% dmg on ferrite and +15% on alloy while slash receives -15% on ferrite and -50% on alloy, but the main thing that prevents the PP from surpassing the Dread, where the PP is expected to top the Dread aka versus armored targets, is Armor Scaling. 
     
    I'm going to disprove an "advantage" that the PP had over the Dread due to popular belief. Before any of you criticize the validity of the builds, I'd like to say that I objectively perceive to have maximized the bows to their full potential. Bows cannot run status builds to their maximum potential when you include the fire rate of the bows, time it takes to aim (You're firing a fully charged arrow at a head that might be moving and isn't exposed to your direct line of sight 100% of the time - Grineers, in this case, Heavy Gunners and Bombards, physically wear armor that restrict their headshot registration to a cone less than 180 degrees; You, innately, ARE going to take the time to aim accurately), and the time it takes to adjust for mechanics, such as lining up enemies b/c of innate punch through or adjusting b/c of the arrow's travel time. In other words, bows cannot proc a status you want fast enough to warrant a status build. In addition, if your foothold against armored targets is reliant on your bow procing corrosive or any status, then you probably won't go as far as a consistent - a physical proc is weighted 4x as much as an elemental one, so the likelihood in seeing an elemental proc from a weapon with both physical and elemental damage is low, which is effectively worse on a bow - straight full dps build or shouldn't have less than 4x CP. However, in the instance where 4x CP is present, the infinite scaling capabilities of a viral proc does warrant a status build for a meager loss of 8.7k consistent paper dps as an exception. 
     
    Dread Build: http://goo.gl/D3Ggcr
    Infected Clip is the only dynamic part in the builds (Swapping it for Hell Fire to get Radiation). 

    Data Collection


    QwvqLkg.png

     
    Data Trends:
    • The PP competes equally with the Dread as the PP continues to reach its peaking optimal point, however near the end it begins to falloff. In other words, the dmg retained on c.flesh begins to shadow the dmg retained on the armor.
    • In the Bombard case, the Dread truly dictates its presence on the c.flesh dmg since the total dmg retention rate is greater than the PP. Ofc, resistances play a factor as well, but it's less evident on corrosive vs HG until beyond lvl 90 enemies.
    • The corrosive bow vs HG shows that the Dread pulls ahead in the beginning, then the PP, then finally the Dread. The level 50 data signifies that the PP is still approaching its optimal point where it is shadowing the dmg dealt by c.flesh when the Dread has already begun to falloff, however at the end we can see that the PP is past its optimal peak declining faster than the Dread.
    Key Concept in Data Trends: The Dread will falloff earlier than the PP while the PP will peak longer, however the rate at which the Dread falls-off is lower than the rate at which the PP falls-off. 
     
    Note: Each one of these values have been tested personally in the Simulacrum, and checked at least twice, even for the red crits on the PP :\, to make sure the values were consistent. I did NOT just grab a yellow crit and math my way for the red crits. 
     
    Discrepancy: When I spawned lvl 1 Heavy Gunners and Bombards, the game spawned lvl 8 and 4 respectively, but it's most likely due to those values being their base levels. I could've gone back and just spawned lvl 8 HGs and Bombards, but I already collected some data by the time I noticed and I'm too lazy. Besides, they're low-leveled, so their armor doesn't matter as much, and I only collected the level 1 input for the sake of seeing a trend. 
     
    Why I didn't just paper my way through this experiment for data and a WFBuilder caveat:

    Calculating the dmg you deal to an enemy involves a bunch of separate calculations that sums the resulting value from each individual factor. An insight to my approximation as to what it looks like to calculate dmg for one shot: look at EACH one of your IPS values, then calculate the resulting dmg value that each one does to the target modifier, do the same for elements, sum everything, another target/dmg modifier?, if yes, then start from the beginning, crit?, if yes, then crit multiplier?, previous status proc that possibly influences the dmg modifier?, is the dmg going to bleed-over?, multishot?, etc.
     
    Why didn't you just use WFB to see that PP > Dread on armored targets. 

    You're reading WFB incorrectly. The calculated values you get after clicking on "Details" only show the dmg ouput on a pure type. Surprise surprise, nothing in this game is a pure type. WFB supports the fact that Dread > PP when you read it with realism on whatever they're using to calculate their total dmg per shot. In other words, you need to add up dmg values inflicted on both modifier types. 
    WFB is a great general guideline that averages the damage you deal, but it is not absolute law (Have you compared the values from ingame simulation and what WFB says? I highly doubt you will obtain the same results). The numbers you get are ran through dmg calcs done on a pure target at base level while averaging the crit chance and multishot into your overall damage. Ie. 90% multishot is flubbed/averaged in by multiplying the base value by 1.9, an RNG value, so the value that outputs is the average of what you should get. I realize I can uncheck the multishot and crit stuff on WFB, but the fact that it doesn't allow you to look at damage dealt at enemies that aren't at their base level means that you would still have to calculate the DR on your target on your own if you want to get any precise answer, but why would you do that when you can simply just go into the Simulacrum?, henceforth WFB is unreliable for complete accuracy on targets that are above level 10. I even reverse-calculated for the total dmg on the Dread and got a percent error when comparing it to WFB. 

     
    I'll explain using an interpretation of the crap I just typed in the spoiler for simplicity sake. 
    Effective Total Damage on Grineer is calculated as follows: ETD = [(Dmg on Cloned Flesh) + (Dmg on Armor)] * x
    where x is some DR value that I'm gonna ignore.
    The important concept to grasp here, and not the precision of the formula, is: ETD = (Dmg on Cloned Flesh) + (Dmg on Armor)
     
    I'll first address what baffled me the most, which led me to my conclusion on this comparison. Why does the PP still fall behind when put up against the Bombard? As I said earlier, ferrite receives +50% from punc and -15% on slash while alloy receives +15% from punc and -50% slash. What happened here? This goes back to the idea of DR's exponential scaling. In the simplified ETD formula, as the enemies armor approaches infinity, the dmg from your weapon on the armor portion will approach 0, therefore the dmg on c.flesh will surpass the dmg on armor at a certain point. This doesn't necessarily mean that you will reach a point where your dmg approaches "pure dmg" from the dmg you deal on the c.flesh since the unsimplified version of the formula factors in the DR from the enemy armor into the dmg dealt on the c.flesh. 
     
    Why does the PP under-perform in a bigger margin against alloy than ferrite?
    Applying the concept behind the ETD formula; Ferrite: +50% punc, -15% slash; Alloy: +15% punc, -50% slash; C.flesh: +25% slash.
    The Dread is more efficient vs c.flesh, a modifier that does not reduce output dmg over time. PP is more efficient vs armor, a modifier that diminishes the PP's only advantage as time progresses. When going from ferrite to alloy, you remove the only advantage the PP has vs the Dread. The -50% on alloy from slash seems really crippling to the Dread, but it's not like the Dread had amazing dmg vs armor in the first place. 
     
    What happens when we have more than 1 CP?
    In the instance of 2 and 3 CP, when applying knowledge from the trends, the PP will continue to peak longer while the Dread will falloff later than its previous iteration of optimal when CP decrements by =(current CP-1), but earlier than PP's optimal point. However the PP will continue to falloff faster than the Dread once its optimal point has been reached. All in all Dread > PP still remains. 
     
    A lot believe the Dread and PP are equals but specialize in certain niche. In other words, PP > Dread when armor is present. This is not entirely true, especially when the weapons are being put up with a bunch of multipliers and dmg modifiers from different enemy types. The dread has 90/100 of its IPS in slash while the PP has 80/100 in punc. In the grand scheme of things, the PP's 10-less punc stat matters a lot when you have a charged bow (2x dmg), yellow crit(4.4x), red crit (7.8x), and dmg modifiers. At the base, when both are fully charged, the Dread has 10.5k slash while the PP 8.5k punc. Does the PP compete if DE changes the PP's base dmg to 90/100 punc? Kinda, but all this does is delay the time it takes for the PP to falloff. In other words, no change in the big picture (See #3/Key Concept in Data Trends). 
     
    All in all, I'm real annoyed that I wasted 4 forma on a bow, that I had to grind for, being topped by a bow that drops like candy from the Stalker. Does this mean I was biased in all this? No, I provided actual values you would obtain from ingame, which says more than enough whether or not I typed anything at all. Realistically, you would want to specialize against both HGs and Bombards since the Grineer/Void faction does not only consist of one or the other, hence the PP falls short. 
     
    The main point I'm trying to get across here is that Armor Scaling causes greater diminishing-returns-over-time on armor modifiers than not-armor modifiers, which effectively causes armor modifiers subject to the dumpster in due time. 
     
    TL;DR. Versus armored targets: The Dread is King; Paris Prime is trash. 

    Press E To Win, Covert Lethality

    in General

    Posted · Edited by Kotoge

    Logically? That means that I practically broke all logic when my Scindo Prime on Loki one-shots them just fine. Seriously, that's the next best melee combo that's down from Excalibur with Blind and EB which is a 250 base dmg melee weapon, which Invisibility does the same thing as blind (x4 dmg), just with a lower but 2nd best melee base dmg (or best that's not attached to a frame) you can use.

    how bout u try hitting an armored target at lvl 95, and "best melee combo?" context pls.

     

    i went into the simulacrum with my pscindo and saw nothing of the sort.

     

    lvl 95 hg have 34361 hp, not ehp, and 6696 armor that effectively reduces ur dmg by 95.7%. if u want a tankier target to hit then spawn a lvl 95 bombard - 37565 hp, 7203 armor = 96% dr. fyi that .3% diff means a huge deal on armor dr's exponential scale. youre telling me that each swing from ur pscindo one shots either one of those enemies? how bout enemies beyond 95? can ur pscindo keep up with a mod that scales indefinitely? bullS#&$.

     

    a dagger without this new mod has no chance of performing one shots on enemies, no wep does. 

     

    since youre using 'logic' against me, can you present some real tests instead of baseless claims that seem to work out in ur head

    Press E To Win, Covert Lethality

    in General

    Posted · Edited by Kotoge

    That'd be your 400% mele damage buff while invisable, not covert lethalty.

     

    Loki is still a bad example of this.

    he spawned lvl 95 enemies aka they have a lot of armor and health. even with a multiplier of 4 from invis, the base dmg on daggers are too low to allow one shots. logically, theres no way you can one shot anything with a dagger, or any melee with maxed mods, by simply meleeing them once. 

    Huge Loki Can't Switch Teleport With His Decoy Properly.

    in General

    Posted · Edited by Kotoge

    SzU3PVF.jpg

     

    it doesnt even work when loki and the decoy are on flat surfaces. my cursor is on the decoy as evident by the shield and health indicator on the top middle of my hud. notice how my last skill used was switch teleport when both loki and the decoy are standing still, yet underneath i get a "target obstructed" 

     

    edit: i spammed decoy and switch tele at different spots until it finally worked, but it seems that only loki teleported and not the decoy

    A Share Key System

    in General

    Posted

    if anything this system would lessen the stress and grind that comes along with farming for void parts, esp when theres a new prime access. their goal is to frustrate you enough so that you would be desparate enough to buy their pa. implementing this system wouldnt make de any money.

     

    if anything, this system would harm their business, which makes it a very low priority thing if they were to ever add it

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