aminisi
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Posts posted by aminisi
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15 hours ago, SymbolicSunshine said:
Be honest: how many frames do you approach the most difficult content you can manage, with zero survivability mods equipped?
Even if you're some kind of spiders georg who can say "I have never put a survivability mod of any kind on my warframes, ever." here's some perspective on how more people mod; If you go to overframe.gg and sort all 55~ types of frame builds by "highest rated + all time", everything at the top that isn't using duration mods to live (Mesa + all the invisibility frames) is using at least 1 mod slot for catalyzing shields/adaptation/etc. You can also scroll the #build-discussion chat on the official discord for a similar effect.I also thought that the survivability of the kit might not be actually used much in other frames, but I gave up because it seemed difficult to comprehensively verify. Thank you for the verification and the idea of the direction of the verification.
15 hours ago, SymbolicSunshine said:All that aside, one thing I think people should take note of when talking about Banshee reworks is that Banshee is likely unpopular not because she's particularly bad at staying alive in this age of shield gating, (Mag shares the exact, and I mean exact, same level of squishability. Despite this, she is much more popular, even only acounting for prime versions so you don't have the starter frame effect.) but because Sonar has been largely unnecessary for well-developed accounts to massively overkill enemies by nearly incomprehensable amounts even on her release. Then on the other side of that coin, new players that would actually need the damage buffs can't make good enough use of her energy needs to make her consistent.
It's much better to be told "Banshee is too excessively strong and has no place to be used" than "Banshee is weak," but I must also refute that. Fortunately, I recently came up with a good phrase. "Being excessive is not a bad thing. It leads to comfort, fun, and new synergies." With the damage boost, enemies fall with fewer hits and can also be killed with easier-to-handle weapons, bringing a different experience than usual. As for the synergies that occur, you can also have your sentinel and its clone with Duplex Bond kill enemies. (Of course, even in the Steel Path) My recent favorite is transplanting Pillage, stripping armor, and then having the sentinels' Combustion Beam chain explosions slaughter the enemies. In that state, most damage abilities can kill enemies, so there are also frames that can fight differently than usual by teaming up with Banshee, which can also be called a synergy.
I do feel that it is difficult to increase Banshee's usage rate. So, I try to attract interest with phrases like "You can clear even the Steel Path just by spamming Sonar and having sentinel attacks" and "You can surprise and entertain your friends and random match squads with abnormal damage boosts." and "It's also optimal for supporting Archimedea." I think my influence is minuscule, but looking at Reddit and such, I feel like the Sonar spam build is gradually gaining recognition.
8 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:Shards make it easier, but long before shards existed this was possible via a combination of health, armor and mobility. What I'd call "incidental" shieldgating was a really valuable component of this too, but just a component.
I have been playing almost exclusively Banshee since before normal Nova's implementation, but I think I used to survive almost solely on mobility. I remember preferring Quick Thinking as insurance, but it wasn't very good to suddenly have zero energy. My habit of always fighting while jumping was acquired in that era. I think even now, with a strong AoE weapon and nothing equipped on the frame, I could probably safely clear 20 waves of normal Hydron, maybe. Now I don't have Brief Respite, Catalyzing Shields, or any mods that only provide survivability, but the reason I can survive with just the 0.33-second shield gating from the Auger set mods is also thanks to my jumping habit.
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4 hours ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:
Ah yes the good old "anybody who doesn't agree with me doesn't appreciate or know how to play" schtick. I'm kind of astounded that you jumped straight to assuming I don't like Banshee- with my username?- or don't play or understand her over something that simply wasn't a 100% agreement. I guess you're part of the reason that weird stereotype of Banshee elitists is a thing, so thanks for nothing there. You've truly contributed so much to a frame we both obviously enjoy.
I've been playing Banshee since, again, Obama administration. I've also played other frames and have witnessed how seemingly small QoL changes made them much more enjoyable. Would turning Sonic Boom into a one handed action with faster casting speed, or turning Sound Quake into a more modern CC demolish your precious ego? Would Sonar multiplier getting reined in while having some of its nerfs reverted- like the boss application it used to have- destroy Banshee in your eyes?
If you're arguing against buffing or updating Banshee because you treat her as a high horse to sit on and look down on others, can you really call that a behavior of someone who actually likes and cherishes Banshee? If you can't tell, I'm just giving back what you dished out- please reflect upon yourself before responding.
"Buffs are beneficial for players, so anyone who isn't positive about it is crazy." This is also a very common saying from a long time ago. And those who say this often try to push through with the arrogance and roughness of the majority, ruining delicate or difficult discussions. You casually said, "Banshee being less broken is a price(for a QoL)" and "I don't mind if Sonar's multiplier gets lowered," while omitting the reasons. Of course, having such conversations with a light attitude is fun and legitimate. However, for me, pursuing Banshee's potential to the limit is a fundamental enjoyment in Warframe, and it's tied to whether I will quit the game or not. In a place for discussion, if you have a casual attitude like "It's okay if it gets nerfed and the research is ruined, right?" please forgive me for reacting this way due to the difference in enthusiasm. Of course, that's my personal ego. However, it should be respected just as much as the ego of "all frames must be easily strong."
And in a discussion, the premises must be aligned. When things are omitted, I don't understand what attracts you to Banshee, to what extent you understand her current strength, to what extent you want her to be modified, and to what extent these are motivated by. At least the exchange with Unohound was meaningful in that I could understand there are people who think "all frames must have an easy-to-understand survivability with just their kit."
I am in a difficult position where I have to argue against both the opinion that Banshee is too weak and the opinion that she is too strong and should be nerfed. In fact, reworking Banshee, who brings abnormal damage boosts not only to the squad but also to companions and AoE abilities, is a much more difficult task than reworking Hydroid or Inaros, whose roles are simply limited to how they fight enemies. This is evident from the fact that even BansheeAndZephyrMarried, who likes Banshee and QoL changes, mentions nerfs. At the very least, if we are going to have a proper discussion, particularly when it comes to complicated matters, I think it's inappropriate to omit things, not align premises and perceptions, and casually say, "That much is fine, isn't it?"
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7 hours ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:
I accept there's not a small amount of hypocrisy for me here as a Zephyr enjoyer. But to be completely honest Banshee being less broken is a price I'm perfectly willing to accept if she receives some Sound Quake and QoL changes she's desperately needed since Obama administration.
I am not hoping for Banshee to remain unappreciated and out of the spotlight. I am arguing that we should wait and see the current trend of re-evaluation. And that is undoubtedly the fairest approach. Would it be fair to nerf a frame with the third-lowest usage rate (first is Caliban, second is Nyx Prime) without understanding or popularity?
I check the Banshee topics on the official forums and Reddit. (Recently, it has been difficult to search due to the Green Banshee meme.) Lately, I often see Banshee mentioned as a favorite frame or the frame with the most support capabilities. I am happy to see comments like the one below.
QuoteRecently made a spam sonar banshee build, everyone hits number cap after a little spam, gets energy from nourish and all enemy abilities are disabled. Not traditional support but its insane how it makes EDA a joke unless the debuffs are bad for it.
And what I am questioning is why you desire Banshee's "QoL" even at the cost of sacrificing valuable trends and enthusiastic fans in the game. I didn't get a reply from Unohound, and you are omitting that part. I suspect that you are not interested in Banshee as a frame or her strength, nor are you interested in her after the buff. I suspect that you just want to get the satisfaction of "Now I can display all the toys on the shelf in a usable state." If you want to play with new strength, you should expect that from new frames. With over 50 frames in existence, there should be plenty of frames that can provide satisfaction. The idea that "all frames must be easily strong" seems like a bizarre and very minority obsession. -
2 hours ago, Unohound said:
This isn't substantiated in your argument. If you don't use her 4th ability she remains relatively the same, so where's the nerf?
Although I don't use Sonic Boom's knockback regularly, it is very useful at times. For example, sticking a moving Acolyte to a wall, keeping the last Demolisher, which was accidentally activated while collecting reactants in Fissure Disruption, away, blowing away Deep Archimedea' invincible Liminus, forcibly moving or dropping enemies to specific locations. However, when you want to strip armor with the augment mod, the knockback is unnecessary. Simply removing the knockback is a nerf, so it needs to be toggleable by holding the button or something.
Sonar's "Only applies damage multiplier to enemy weak points" is a tremendous nerf. If it continues to stack on only one spot, the damage boost will be tremendous, but the versatility will be reduced and extreme. Currently, spamming Sonar can turn the entire body of an enemy into a weak point, which is a significant strength. In the first place, considering why Sonar is not allowed to work on bosses, there's no way DE would allow even more extreme damage boosts than now.
2 hours ago, Unohound said:f the main mechanic for survival is shieldgating, then armor and hp stacking aren't that important?
I stated, "there are various ways to ensure survivability in the current environment." You seem to be trying to convince yourself that there is no other means of survival except shield gating.
I've seen people who are not good at shield gating on Reddit being satisfied with health and armor builds using Archon Shards and responding several times. In fact, if you don't do Steel Path for a long time, you'll probably get sufficient durability.2 hours ago, Unohound said:Yes, frames should be usable.
So, to summarize, "all frames must have an easy-to-understand survivability with just their kit. Frames that require securing durability with mods, arcanes, or squad-based play in exchange for having powerful abilities shouldn't exist. This is so I can feel satisfied that I can use all frames in a similar manner with ease." Is it correct to understand that you believe this? This should be respected, and I understand the idea that "enhancements are generally beneficial to players."
However, easy buffs cause a significant disadvantage of ruining the fun for frame researchers. The flow of trial and error, trying various combinations to discover strengths, announcing them, spreading them, and popularizing them is very valuable for the entire community. Easy buffs damage that foundation and lead to a lack of trust, thinking, "There's no point in researching because they'll get buffed anyway."
If Banshee's 4th ability were replaced with something so powerful that it could grant Overguard, it would gain attention on its own and increase users, even temporarily. And it would quickly spread that Sonar is too strong and can be used for the semi-AFK gameplay and wide-area AoE annihilation that DE dislikes. If there are frequently two or more Banshees in a squad, the damage boost will become an extreme one of over 1000 times, and there will be more people saying, "I don't know my own strength because Banshee is frequently there, and it's not fun." If that happens, it will be a sad comedy where it gets nerfed immediately after being buffed. Banshee's current performance is allowed due to a certain level of high hurdles and low usage rate. If Banshee's strength is understood and gains popularity through a natural process and then gets nerfed, I have no choice but to accept it, but I believe we should avoid the comedy.
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Unfortunately, your idea seems like a terrible nerf and loss of uniqueness to me.
First of all, there are various ways to ensure survivability in the current environment. I think Banshee is the character that synergizes best with shield gating. This is because there are few abilities that become more effective the more they are used, except for damage abilities. The more you use Sonar, the more stable and excessive damage boost it becomes. With Catalyzing Shields, using Sonar about once per second is enough to prevent Banshee from going down. Many people find shield gating difficult or unpleasant, but with this method, it can be operated with the same feeling as firing a semi-auto weapon, which is much easier than you might think. Another means is to enhance defense with Archon shard. It has become possible to significantly increase health and armor compared to before, so this also functions sufficiently. Some players utilize Vazarin's invincibility, although it is quite more difficult than shield gating. If you focus on spreading Sonar and let sentinel clones get the kills, you can also use Shade's invisibility. As the number of players who can provide Overguard has increased, relying on friends is also a game-like team play.
As a player who primarily plays Banshee and streams Warframe for about two hours every day, I no longer use even Catalyzing Shields, let alone Rolling Guard. This is because the effect of the Augur set mods alone triggers a 0.33-second shield gate, so theoretically, if you use Sonar three times per second, you won't die. Strictly speaking, using Sonar three times per second requires Madurai's ability cast speed increase, and it's difficult to input at the fastest speed with good timing, but I can fake it quite well while moving. Even if you accidentally go down, if the enemies are weakened by Sonar, you can revive in a few seconds with Last Gasp. In fact, I have transplanted Pillage for stabilization, but I have sufficiently confirmed that I can manage without it.
People who understand Banshee to some extent tend to say, "Banshee's damage boost is so excessive that it has no place to be used." If you can already survive sufficiently, any further survivability can be considered excessive too. And it's the same that excessiveness can be converted into comfort, fun, and new synergies. From that perspective, the addition of Overguard or damage mitigation feels like it produces nothing and is just an easy way out.
Banshee is incredibly strong in her current state, and she still has untapped potential. To me, it's puzzling why people want to strengthen her without deepening their understanding of her. I'm starting to feel that there may be an obsession that "all frames must be usable with a shallow understanding and similar playstyle" and "you can't feel at ease unless you feel like all frames are usable." It seems to be going in a different direction from the purpose of a rework, which is to bring out the charm of the frames more and make the game more diverse. I believe that having characters that require understanding and special styles makes the game more interesting.
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12 hours ago, AegidiusF said:
Not really a nerf. It was a bug, that became a non documented feature, reported for more than an year and finally fixed last month (I was hoping this would become a real feature, but the devs decided otherwise).
I was aware of that, and it was half a joke. But the other half points out that in Warframe, bugs are often turned into features. If Banshee was truly recognized as weak by DE, there might have been some consideration. I'm relieved that the fix was done without hesitation. (There's also a possibility that they thought consideration was unnecessary simply because there are few users 😞 )
13 hours ago, AegidiusF said:3) Make Silence open enemies to finishers while under the stun phase (currently, the Augment is needed).
I mostly use Silence with high range : removing eximus abilities and CCing other enemies with Sonic Boom.
Do you know that in Savage Silence specialized builds, it's popular to decrease Ability Range with MODs? Currently, the compatibility between Sonar specialized builds that want to increase Ability Range and Savage Silence that wants to decrease it is the worst. Also, the stun from Silence occurs every time an enemy enters the effect range. Therefore, if the effect range is short, you can keep nearby enemies stunned just by moving back and forth, making it even more effective. My Banshee can survive with shield gating, so I don't need the stun or the ability sealing effect. The only thing I'm afraid of is Malice's Magnetize in defense missions. Therefore, I feel that the demerits of enemies becoming harder to approach due to the stun outweigh the merits of the ability sealing effect, so I basically don't use Silence. I thought that removing the stun would be too personal and wouldn't gain sympathy, but surprisingly, many people might benefit from something like "long press to not stun".6 hours ago, pwnSacrifice said:My hope would be for her to maybe be fantastic in more situations.
My hope is for people to know that Banshee is already a fantastic frame. Certainly, a Rework is one of the nice things. However, I think the process of a frame that was thought to be weak being re-evaluated is even more wonderful. A Rework has the potential to ruin that process. On Reddit, I've been seeing more and more counterarguments when someone posts that Banshee is weak. The popularity of the Green Banshee meme might also be a tailwind.
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2 hours ago, stormy505 said:
And in horde content, sonar setup will let you do more damage but it's KPM is definitely not up there cause of application time. Ignoring survivability and comfort.
It's incorrect to say that Sonar's KPM is low.
Firstly, you are forgetting about the existence of sentinel clones. With Sonar, they function as ferocious killing machines, eliminating enemies more efficiently than a mediocre squad.
Secondly, Banshee can attack and move while activating Sonar, so her own annihilation efficiency doesn't decrease. This would take a long time to explain, so I would appreciate it if you could look at my explanation.It's true that Banshee's damage boost is excessive.
However, being excessive isn't a bad thing. The excessiveness creates comfort, enjoyment, and new synergies like Combustion Beam and sentinel clones.
Even the poorly-received Resonance Quake, when combined with Terrify, can kill even steel Grineer with Sonar's damage boost. It's also fun to combine with other frames' AoE abilities.
She can also be active in Deep Archimedea, strengthening the squad's weapons without mods to a practical level or leaving the annihilation of enemies to sentinels without using weapons.
My recommendation is to play steel path fissures with Banshee in random matchmaking. In my experience, at least once every four times, there are surprised voices regarding the damage boost. That's very enjoyable. (However, it also means that Banshee's recognition is low.)In the first place, most Warframes have excessive power. In the end, I think it's a matter of what type of excess you prefer.
Even Torid, which is highly regarded for its ease and power, requires aiming, reloading, and Incarnon evolution, making it not as easy as it's believed.
Pressing Sonar once a second and having sentinels kill enemies without aiming is one of the comforts in a different direction from Torid. And that comes with a unique enjoyment.
(In practice, movement is necessary to avoid AFK penalties and recover energy.)1 hour ago, pwnSacrifice said:I'm curious what players like @aminisi who enjoy Banshee think might be some good changes.
I believe Sonic Boom has reasonable performance as a 1st ability. The quick knockback has its uses with splitting and enemy movement.
A little while ago, it was convenient as it stripped 33.3% of armor with one use, but it was nerfed, perhaps because DE thought Banshee was too strong.
If I were to wish for something:
- Sonic Fracture: Long-press the button to strip armor without blowing enemies away
- Fix the behavior where enemies affected by Sonar's effect don't appear on the map when they are far away
- Silence: Somehow make it possible to narrow the range
-- When the range is wide, it only stuns enemies far away, reducing annihilation efficiency, so I only use it when dealing with acolytes, etc.
- Resonance Quake: Long-press the button to deal damage without blowing enemies away
-- Currently, the knockback reduces annihilation efficiency, so it can't be used casually in squads. On top of that, the worst is the bug where enemies disappear from the map.
That's about it. To this extent, Banshee won't become too strong, and personally, it will become more comfortable for me.-
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10 hours ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:
As much as Banshee needs attention I feel like they'ed have to change Sonar. Which might upset a lot of people who like her. I think her and Loki are both stuck in perma irrelevancy.
I love Banshee and Sonar, and I'm one of the people you predicted would be upset. However, since your reasoning isn't clearly stated, I can't argue against it. I don't even know whether you think Sonar is too strong and needs to be nerfed, or if you think it's weak and needs to be buffed.
If your statement meant that Sonar is too strong and should be adjusted, I feel it has become difficult for me to argue against that recently. I recently enjoyed using Banshee with a transplanted Pillage, where Combustion Beam showcases devastating destructive power.
https://twitter.com/aminisi_wf/status/1791117411686748469
( Apologies for the Japanese tweets and videos )Combustion Beam causes chain explosions like NOVA's Molecular Prime, annihilating groups of enemies. In practice, I don't carry a primary beam weapon; instead, I equip Combustion Beam on my sentinel's Verglas. As a result, with the Duplex Bond, I have three laser turrets that automatically search, aim, and attack enemies with chain-exploding beams, eliminating them for me. Additionally, it generates a large number of energy orbs.
A Sonar-focused Banshee naturally uses abilities 1 to 3 times per second, as if firing a semi-auto weapon, to maintain shield gating. So, I can naturally achieve this. At the very least, I don't think Banshee is weak, and I believe her evaluation has been improving recently, but I'd appreciate it if you could clarify why you think she needs to be reworked.
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Many powerful AoE weapons have blast damage. Historically, this damage type has been used as a drawback to balance powerful weapons. However, reworking it in a way that increases firepower may adversely affect the game balance that DE aims for.
So, what approaches could be considered for reworking the blast damage? One suggestion is to provide support functions that do not directly affect combat ability. For example, enemies affected by blast status effects could become visible through walls.
Another suggestion is to enhance firepower only under conditions that are unfavorable for AoE weapons. Typically, AoE weapons are not used for headshots. Therefore, increasing the damage of headshots on enemies disoriented by blast status effect could be effective. This would keep the benefits for AoE weapons minimal, while enhancing tactics for other weapons that aim at the heads of enemies disturbed by blast. This effect would be more convincing with a visual effect that emphasizes the head. Additionally, it might be worth considering extra bonuses that make it easier to acquire the Incarnon gauge.
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It is a legitimate request and a form of comfort that every frame can provide a unique experience and common gameplay by using 1-2 abilities once every 30 seconds. However, I think it would be boring and lead to a lack of diversity if all frames were like that. Actually, apart from damage abilities, there are few abilities that become more powerful the more you use them. Among them, Sonar allows you to get a stable damage boost the more you use it, and even a squared damage boost. If Sonar were to become a channeling ability and spamming became difficult, it would be a significant nerf. Being able to get a 5-20 times damage boost no matter where you aim would require aiming, and the 100-400 times damage boost would no longer occur. I believe that both the playstyle of spamming abilities and the damage boost are Banshee's lovable individuality, so if that gets nerfed, there is a possibility of me quitting Warframe.
So I suggest thinking about it the other way around. Many people have the impression that it is difficult to spam abilities with Banshee. Is that really the case? For example, if you use a semi-automatic rifle, you should be pressing the button more than once per second. Furthermore, you need to aim at enemies, evade enemy attacks, and keep maneuvering to make it easier to attack. All that is needed for a Sonar spamming Banshee is to press a button once per second. No aiming or evasive action is required. With just that, the Sentinel and Sentinel Clone will automatically kill enemies for you. Shield gating will make you invincible. (Poison damage is an exception) Moreover, since it greatly boosts the firepower of the squad, no one will think you are slacking off. On the contrary, you might even get exclamations of amazement at the firepower.
To avoid the Inactivity Penalty, you need to get a kill with a weapon or move more than 5m every minute. But just moving to collect energy orbs should be enough to avoid that. It is possible to move at high speed while using abilities by canceling bullet jumps and using Sonar. If you are worried about movement, you can also utilize Shade + Ghost's invisibility. Even if you do go down, if Sonar has been spammed enough, you can revive immediately with Last Gasp, so there is no need to fear accidents.
I would be glad if you could understand that, contrary to the image, Banshee is a very easy and fun frame to play. For reference, I will post a link to an article that explains it in detail with a video.
https://overframe.gg/build/613610/banshee-prime/effortlessly-kill-steel-paths-enemy-with-a-weaponless-bansheewith-video-explanation/ -
11 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:
It was not exactly easy or consistent. Usually with 15 casts, I'd still only get 2x.
I set my ability efficiency to 75% and test by casting 60 times until I run out of energy. Since I usually maximize my ability casting speed and spam it 2-3 times per second, it takes about 20 seconds to finish. If I extend the duration of Sonar to 60 seconds, you should be able to verify the results in the remaining 30 seconds.
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29 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:
I was aware of the limit per Banshee, but didn't know there were units it didn't apply to. Besides the Anatomizer, which ones are you certain of?
Sounds like a pretty obvious bug to me unfortunately.
From what I've verified, non-humanoid units generally have a multiplier of 3 or higher. For example, mechanical enemies and animals.
I was also aware that the Fandom states the limit is squared, but since I could clearly confirm a multiplier of 3 or higher in-game, I thought that was a mistake. Before testing, I thought enemies with only one body part might have a multiplier of 3 or higher, but on the contrary, I could only confirm a multiplier of 1 for single-part enemies. I speculate that the humanoid-only squared limit might be in place to protect important enemies like Kuva Liches.
Regarding the Anatomizer, it's probably a bug. It has multiple parts, and while each part is individually colored by Sonar, attacking anywhere increases the damage. It's the reason why abnormally high damage can easily occur in the Entrati Lab.
For testing, I recommend using Overextended to reduce Sonar's multiplier down to 2. It's also a good idea to extend the ability duration. Additionally, I was worried that there might be a limit to the number of Sonar stacks on a single enemy, but since I confirmed that humanoid enemies can have their entire body affected by a squared damage boost, it seems to stack to at least that extent. In other words, maximizing ability casting speed and spamming Sonar is not meaningless.
Furthermore, using Power Donation to reduce ability strength to 10% will result in a Sonar multiplier of 0.5. This means that each Sonar application can halve the damage dealt to enemies. It might be fun to use this on the Anatomizer as a prank.
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It is very difficult to modify Sound Quake. I have already posted the reasons in the topic. Dante's Nerf reconfirmed that wide-area damage abilities without line of sight checks are a problem for DE. I also posted in this topic that Banshee can currently utilize Resonance Quake because Sonar can increase ability damage by hundreds of times. The fact that it can be operated at this point means that a simple damage boost will result in performance that DE considers problematic.
In fact, if there are multiple Banshees, the damage boost can reach tens of thousands or even millions of times, so Resonance Quake can be considered dangerous even now. If Banshee's usage rate increases due to strengthening, it is possible that this synergistic effect will naturally occur or be intentionally used. (I don't like playing in a semi-neglected manner, so I don't actually know how efficient and meaningful it would be.)
My current Banshee can increase damage by 15 to 200 times and reduce armor to 0 by combining Pillage and Grimoire. Even though it was a Steel Path mission, a Volt who realized that enemies could be defeated with Discharge was spamming Discharge to gain kill counts. Thanks to that, my Sentinel clone's kills decreased, and energy orbs stopped generating, which was troublesome. It may already be in a dangerous territory depending on the combination.
Even without relying on area-of-effect abilities, my Sentinel clone turns into a killing machine and slaughters enemies, effectively achieving the same result. This is one of the reasons why I feel Banshee is too strong in the current environment. With 4 Banshees and 12 Sentinel clones, it would be hell for the enemies.
If Sound Quake and Resonance Quake were to be adjusted, it would likely be one of the following:
- Replace Sound Quake with a completely different ability or add additional effects such as CC
- Add line of sight checks instead of strengthening
- Nerf Sonar (set an upper limit on the multiplier, prevent ability damage from increasing, etc.)
I believe it's better not to forcibly modify it, as nerfing for the sake of strengthening would be putting the cart before the horse.I have been a fan of Banshee since the days when Sound Quake was strong, so I would be sad if Sound Quake became a completely different ability. In Japan, it is affectionately nicknamed "dogeza" because its motion resembles the traditional supreme apology pose called dogeza.
By the way, I recently found out that there seems to be a limitation of up to the square of the Sonar multiplier, mainly for humanoid enemies. Therefore, Sonar and Resonance Quake work more effectively in Entrati Lab, where there are many non-humanoid enemies. Especially for The Anatomizer, for some reason, the damage boost is multiplied across the entire body for each Sonar, making it easy to output 2 billion damage. -
1 hour ago, Unohound said:
coping so hard to deny a frame so old like banshee a rework? y'all really dont like nice things and it shows, Pablo could make her way better than she is now.
What is the reason for reworking in the first place?
Banshee is old? Is being old a bad thing? To me, it seems wonderful that a character called old can be active with tremendous individuality and strength.
Banshee is weak? That is simply not true. The damage boost that allows even poor weapons to fight without problems in Deep Archimedea is increasingly being appreciated.
Banshee is difficult to handle? Difficult to survive? The existence of frames that are difficult to master is not a bad thing, but a good thing for the diversity of the game.
Frames getting stronger is for the benefit of players, so it's strange to deny it? Then should we also affirm the voices desiring further strengthening of Dante?The significance of reworking should be to make that frame a unique and attractive option. And Banshee is already very unique, attractive, and strong. It's simply that its strength and how to use it are not yet known.
Easy reworking crushes the individuality of "unknown, or difficult to master but strong," and ruins the opportunity and process for players to rediscover and re-evaluate. And the result is a characterless "new" frame that "use abilities once or twice every 30 seconds to the extent that it doesn't interfere with shooting or melee, ensuring survivability while providing a somewhat unique experience." Shallow players may rejoice at this, saying, "The number of options that can be used a little bit for a change of pace has increased," but the diversity and flavor of the game will surely decrease. It's like adding a lot of sugar and other seasonings to a flavorful dish.
I continue to use Banshee for about 1-2 hours a day, and I still make new discoveries. My recent discovery is that if you strip armor with Pillage and spam Sonar, the Combustion Beam attached to the sentinel's Verglas will cause chain explosions and sweep away enemies. This has made it possible to generate more energy orbs.
What I think is good about Warframe is that even when you think, "There can't be any more builds than this," if you keep thinking, you'll reach a breakthrough. Not limited to Banshee, many frames and weapons have great potential, and it's wonderful that their respective enthusiasts continue to pursue those possibilities. In order to avoid losing the trust between developers and players that serves as the foundation for this, easy reworking based on wrong premises should not be done.
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2 hours ago, Chewarette said:
Nyx, Atlas & Banshee, on the other hand... are outdated.
Banshee is too frail and has suffered way too much from all those CC-immune enemies implemented over the last few years to the point she's not fun to use anymore.
I would be glad if you could also understand that there are builds for Banshee that are not outdated.
https://overframe.gg/build/613610/banshee-prime/effortlessly-kill-steel-paths-enemy-with-a-weaponless-bansheewith-video-explanation/Her enjoyment lies in providing comfort and fun through excessive damage boosting in multiplayer. Last weekend, when I played with random groups, Banshee was mentioned in 3 out of 5 sessions. In the last one, a Baruuk who really liked Banshee's damage boost asked me to continue the current mission for 50 minutes in Steel Path Fissure Survival, and we eventually added each other as friends.
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40 minutes ago, pwnSacrifice said:
I know you're talking about Banshee, but when you leave out the important bits, it's easy to make sound good.
But how about those damage buffs not working on actual important enemies, the total lack of in-built survivability, and multiple dead abilities? If you like her great, but she's in need of help.
What are the important things?
Is it that Banshee is unsuitable for boss fights?
I believe that each frame has its strengths and weaknesses, and not all frames need to be good at boss fights. She can excel in most missions, such as Deep Archimedes or Steel Path Fissure missions.No survivability at all?
There has never been a time when Banshee has had more survivability built into her kit than now. With shield gating, spamming abilities will prevent her from going down even if she's standing still. (Toxin damage is an exception, though.) Even if she accidentally goes down, if Sonar has been spammed enough, she can get back up in a few seconds with Last Gasp. In a squad, it may reduce the efficiency of annihilation, but solo builds with Silence + Gloom are also popular. In the first place, the idea that all frames should have easy survivability is a lack of diversity. In the current environment where Overguard is easily distributed, it's also fun to cover each other in a team.Her abilities are dead?
Are you joking? Silence is a very popular ability. The power of Sonar needs no explanation. Sonic Boom's knockback is unassuming but useful for stopping demolishers or stripping armor. Even Sound Quake can sufficiently delay enemies in missions where you don't need to kill them, It's dangerous for a frame that can increase damage by 200 times per unit to have an area attack ability like Resonance Quake.While it's true that it takes some getting used to and her usage rate is low, I would be happy if it were recognized that Banshee is very strong and unique in the current environment.
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If a new frame with the following features were added, would it be said that it needs a rework?
- By spamming abilities, it can increase damage to enemies by 100 to 400 times.
- If there are multiple of these frames, the damage multiplies: two frames can cause 10K to 160K times damage, and four frames can cause between 100M to 25.6G times damage.
- The damage boost is effective not only for the squad but also for companions, so even if the frame itself doesn't attack, it can make sentinel clones commit mass slaughter. As a result, energy orbs are mass-produced.
- Each use of an ability makes the frame invincible for about a second. Therefore, as long as abilities are continuously used, the frame remains invulnerable.
- Even if it goes down accidentally, it can revive in a few seconds.
- The frame can move at high speed while using abilities.
- The damage boost also applies to ability damage.
- It has a wide-area attack ability without line-of-sight checks, and when combined with damage buffs and wide-area armor stripping, this frame alone can achieve wide-area annihilation on Steel Path missions.
The only things lacking are players' understanding and interest, and it's beside the point to mention the possibility of a rework due to her being weak.
It's understandable to discuss ease of use, but having all frames designed to provide survivability and a slightly unique experience by using an ability once every 30 seconds would be both boring and lack diversity. -
I cannot agree with the proposal to increase Banshee's usage rate through buffs, as Banshee is already sufficiently strong and unique. The damage multiplier of Sonar is exceptionally powerful, even among all other games. If Banshee becomes too strong due to buffs, or if a rework is carried out, there is a high possibility that the multiplier of Sonar will be fundamentally nerfed. I would have no complaints if buffs or nerfs were made after Banshee's strength was widely recognized, but now is not the stage to make changes. This is because being strong despite low usage rates, or being strong despite being difficult to use, is an important characteristic in the diversity of the game.
thanks to shield gating, simply using Sonar once a second easily ensures survivability, and it can easily make random players exclaim with joy, "I dealt over 1M damage!" Even in Deep Archimedea, Banshee has high aptitude, as she can make sentinel clones massacre enemies and demolishers without using weapons or AW guns. It may be my imagination, but I feel that I am seeing more counterarguments against the claim that Banshee is weak, so I think it's fine to continue observing the situation as it is. -
6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:
Fixed as of today, welp.
I think it's understandable that DE would not tolerate it, because Banshee is too strong.🙂
My hope is that this will be the last nerf (including any unwanted reworks) for her. -
I have acquired a new voidshell skin, so I decided to level up a second Banshee Prime and create a Resonance Quake build. There were many trials and errors, as well as meaningful discoveries.
The final build uses 5 yellow Tauforged Archon Shards, Natural Talent, and Madurai to maximize the casting speed of abilities. With the effects of Madurai and Grimoire, the ability power is increased by +100%, reaching 306%.
What I discovered is that in a shield gating build, Banshee don't even need Catalyzing Shields and Brief Respite to survive. Since the minimum invulnerability time for shield gating is 0.33 seconds, using Sonar 3 times per second can maintain an invulnerable state. Therefore, by equipping just one Augur set mod, you can freely use the aura slot. Additionally, you can increase the ability efficiency to 175%.
Even if you accidentally go down, if you have spammed Sonar sufficiently, you can get back up immediately. With enough Sonar spam and using Terrify, Resonance Quake can kill steel Grineer soldiers to some extent.
Since the multiplier for Sonar is 15 times, if it is applied twice, it becomes 225 times, turning the 12000 damage of Resonance Quake into 0.9~2.7M. However, the effect of Sonar is unstable, so in reality, it feels like randomly killing enemies.
My impression of this build is that it has a decent level of practicality and is quite fun. However, there are two major issues.
The first is that it blows enemies away. While it's fine for solo play, it reduces the killing efficiency in multiplayer.
The second issue is that enemies who are blown away and downed may disappear from the map. It seems that they also disappear from other players' maps.
If it weren't for these two problems, I think it would be great to be able to spam it casually in multiplayer as well. It might be useful for missions where killing efficiency is not important.
I am not yet fully accustomed to this build, so my movements are a bit awkward, but I will post a short video for reference.
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18 hours ago, Azamagon said:
4) Toning down the ridiculously excessive strength of Sonar (Sonar-stacking being the issue here).
Thank you for crafting a concrete proposal out of the rework I feared becoming reality. :)
What I feel about rework ideas, not just for Banshee, is that they all seem to converge on the idea that "assuming solo play, if you activate 2 or 3 abilities about once every 30 seconds, you'll have survivability and can have a slightly unique experience without interfering with general weapon-based combat."
Is approaching that the only thing that counts as QoL and rework? I feel like it's just losing individuality and diversity. Your ideas are mainly intended to show a direction, so I think it's uncouth to nitpick the details, but Including a slowing effect in the 4th ability seems to me like evidence of a lack of awareness for people who enjoy multiplayer and support roles, as it would lead to reduced squad annihilation efficiency and comfort
It's a good thing to have frames that are unique, difficult to master, but strong.
It's also a good thing to have frames that are loved passionately despite being the third least used.
It's also a good thing to have frames that, while not excelling in solo play, can provide a unique experience to the squad through support. (Banshee is more than strong enough for solo play, though)Indeed, for the majority, having options that offer a slightly unique experience for a change of pace, while being usable in a similar way, is more beneficial than having options that are completely unusable. And the pursuit of that benefit should be respected, and I respect your proposal and its benefits as well. Essentially, these discussions tend to boil down to who benefits, and minorities are in a weak position. However, I believe that the diversity, richness, and magnanimity of Warframe reside in the details.
That being said, I can't argue against the fact that Sonar is OP, so I pray that DE will continue to overlook it with a generous spirit.
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26 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:1 hour ago, aminisi said:
So, in my opinion, it's better not to buff Sound Quake until Banshee's potential power is properly known.
What does that mean?
I apologize for the confusing wording.
What I meant was that Banshee is currently not being properly evaluated because it's not widely known that Sonar has an interaction with Resonating Quake and that Sonar itself is extremely powerful and versatile. Therefore, there's a possibility that she might become too strong and be subject to immediate crippling nerfs.
I was spamming Sonar and then clearing out enemies with Resonating Quake in Hydron before the Steel Path was implemented. I was satisfied with the annihilation by AOE and got bored of it, so I haven't tried it since, but the casting speed of abilities has become faster, energy recovery has become easier, and ability strength has become easier to enhance compared to the past, so there's a possibility that it's even stronger now.
It might still be effective in the Steel Path, especially against the Infested that don't have armor.
I'm planning to create a second Banshee Prime with a Resonating Quake build when the VoidShell skin comes out. Currently, I have Nourish transplanted in the fourth slot, so I plan to transplant it in the first slot on my sub-Banshee.
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It's very difficult to fix Sound Quake. It's true that it lacks both the power it had in its prime and the power befitting an Ult.
However, the current Sound Quake is not completely useless. It's still useful for taking out low-level enemies, and The continuous stun has a high value in missions where killing is not necessary, such as interception.
Furthermore, Sonar can also increase the damage of abilities by more than 100 times. (It seems that most enemies take increased ability damage when their torso is marked) Combine a Sonar-spamming Banshee with AoE frames like Saryn and Mirage, and you have the makings of a large-scale slaughter. When Resonating Quake's damage increases, Banshee alone will be able to do it. (At this stage, it seems difficult to do this in Steel Path without removing armour.)
I'm confident in my movement to cancel bullet jumps with Sonar and kill enemies with Ocucor while moving at high speed, but I was surprised to find that when I teamed up with Mirage in a narrow defensive map in a Steel Path rift, I could hardly get any kills. With 4 Banshees, it is possible to re-kill enemies in a wide area with Resonating Quake alone, without shooting. That's because even if the damage multiplier is 10 times per person, it's 10,000 times, and if it's 100 times per person, it's 100 million times. This is one of the reasons why Banshee is potentially OP.
Even if Sound Quake becomes toggleable and allows movement, there will still be the problem of continuous stun becoming a nuisance for squad members, and even when playing solo, since Gloom + Silence is already powerful for continuous stunning, while it has the benefit of freeing up a transplant slot, there seems little reason to buff it on purpose.
So, in my opinion, it's better not to buff Sound Quake until Banshee's potential power is properly known.
As for Sonic Boom, the fact that 33.3% of the armor can be removed without an augment is like a buff that's being overlooked. I want them to continue to overlook it. Making it a one-handed ability is also interesting, but the problem is that console players who don't like key configs will have a hard time getting the benefit.
Overkill has value just for the fun of it, but not all players can really kill all enemies in an instant. Increasing the kill speed of enemies is a convenience. Banshee herself can also benefit from a build that in comfort. For example, my Ocucor has a 150-round magazine, and I recover 30 rounds every time I kill an enemy, so I can operate almost by holding down the button. Converting excessive firepower into convenience is an important concept in Banshee builds.
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Recently, while spreading the word about Banshee, I realised that people may not be aware of how to enjoy playing Banshee. Many people talk about soloing with the assumption that Gloom will be transplanted. While Gloom is certainly an excellent ability, it ruins the fun and comfortable carnage that is Banshee's forte.
The most enjoyable way to play Banshee is in multiplayer. By spamming Sonar, you can inflict damage multipliers of 10, 100, and sometimes over 1000 times. As a result, I often get chat messages like "What's going on?" or "Crazy" when playing with random players. Although this alone is more than enough contribution, three Sentinel clones will automatically kill enemies for you. Unless your teammates are exceptionally strong, you'll often have the top kill count.
Actually, I don't particularly enjoy playstyles where I just stand still and spam abilities. I spam Sonar while moving and attacking, and that busyness makes for a unique kind of fun.
I recommend trying a playstyle where you relentlessly spam Sonar in random matchmaking, paint enemies your favorite color, and give your squad an abnormal and fun experience, even if it is just once.
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Buffs for Banshee
in Warframes
Posted
My words were also unclear. I simply meant that the damage boost for normal enemies is excessive in the current environment and less needed. Personally, I feel that Banshee is excessively strong, but I also think that most frames are excessively strong and this game is about choosing the "excess" that suits your preference. If so, it's natural for many people to choose the "excess" that is easier to handle. With the introduction of the Corrosive stacks from the green Archon Shards and the heavy slam attacks, damage inflation is a trend, so I have to admit that the relative value of Banshee's damage boost is declining.
If there were end-game content where the EHP of normal enemies increased by 100 or 1000 times, Banshee's damage boost might be in the spotlight. Even if it increases by 10,000 or 100,000 times, if there are multiple Banshees, Sonar will overlap even more, so having 2 to 4 Banshees in a squad could be the optimal solution. However, unfortunately, such content is unlikely to be implemented due to the many drawbacks. It might be peaceful to say that there are no missions where Banshee's Sonar is essential. (Although the situation in Deep Archimedes where strong weapons cannot be used is somewhat close to that)
This is a minor point, but I consider Resonance to be a very low priority. Thanks to the Amber Archon Shard, Banshee can now spam Sonar at a pace of nearly 3 times per second. That's 15 times in 5 seconds. Since Resonance only triggers once every 5 seconds, increasing from 15 to 16 times has little impact. (Though it differs in that the trigger points are different and parts not yet targeted by Sonar are prioritized.) If anyone is using Resonance without equipping Natural Talent for spamming Sonar, I recommend prioritizing Natural Talent.
Having Sentinels get kills is possible even without Pillage. If you'd like, I'd be happy if you could watch my video.
https://youtu.be/ZkzgKFHzIvI
When combined with Pillage and Combustion Beam, it looks like this. The large amount of health orbs and energy orbs they supply helps me manage my Banshee's energy.
https://x.com/aminisi_wf/status/1791117411686748469
Even Resonating Quake, which is often said to be weak, can be used decently when combined with Terrify.
https://youtu.be/rJ_Q2DfLZPE
However, it's very unfortunate that the knock-back effect on enemies can interfere with the squad, so it can't be used casually. Sound Quake also functions reasonably well for the purpose of delaying enemies without killing them in interception or mobile defense missions. Just as not all frames survive solely with their kit, I feel like there are quite a few frames that don't use their 4th ability, and I don't think it's that bad. In the first place, it was a broken ability in the past, so I think there's still room for abuse. If there are two or more Banshees in a squad, it can be considered that by combining Resonating Quake with 6 Sentinel clones, area annihilation can be done much more efficiently than before. So I think it's dangerous to easily increase the damage to match the current trend.
One more thing, which I forgot to mention this time, is that if you spam Sonar enough, even if you go down, you can revive in a few seconds with the Operator's Last Gasp, which is a unique synergy for Banshee. I would be happy if this could also be recognized as Banshee's means of survival.