Volt_Cruelerz
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Posts posted by Volt_Cruelerz
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Nothing on those lists is what I've seen suggested for either.
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bump. Any help with this?
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From a related thread on the subject of the Solar Rail conflict counting as endgame...
The things preventing it from being endgame so far as I can tell...
1. it's way too easy to deploy a rail resulting in constant, incessant conflict
2. there isn't a centralized way to tell what's under siege
3. there's too much difference between a brand new Tenno and someone who's MR15 numerically which completely overwhelms the value of skill
4. there's no way to augment your own rail's defenses5. there's no challenge (because of 3 and 4)
I've got a ton of other suggestions, but fixing those alone would IMO turn it into an endgame. It would need more to be a good endgame, but it would be something...
In terms of the Dark Sectors themselves, I think that these contingents of alternate enemies could be quite cool and would definitely switch up gameplay. That said, to get Dark Sectors in general to be a form of endgame, we need to get both their conflicted and non-conflicted states to count, hence the above quote.
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I already expected the dark sectors will be overhauled with the infested tile set and the new J3 Golem as a boss. What really gets my blood boiling is that I'm certain they are not working to develop an end game that the veterans of Warframe will find acceptable.
We'll just have to see... Most of the things in that list are easy fixes. I'll probably make a thread in a week or two on the subject of making both Nightmare and Dark Sectors into endgame.
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You are referring to the solar rails. That is a horrible system all together however I'm talking about the Dark Sector aka The Badlands.
Quote from DE_Steve
""Badlands"
• New locations are discovered in the Solar Map, with rarer resources, harder bosses, better loot...
Where is the hard boss encounters? Where is the challenge? Where is the engaging content? Since I been playing from update 6 I can without a doubt in my mind that update 13 is the worst not basing this on content but on the quality of new features introduced to the game.
In all honestly, after seeing what DE thinks is end game. I think they do not deserve my loyalty.
Well, SR's are how you access the Dark Sectors...
I'd say give them some time to try to add some more content to the Dark Sectors. They'll likely be what ultimately uses the forsaken Infested tile set and have all sorts of unique content that's just not ready yet. That said, that'll just be more consumable content. My previous post was on the subject of making Solar Rail conflicts in the Dark Sectors count as endgame.
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Now my opinion is fact. You and the eleven people who up voted you're comment.
The things preventing it from being endgame so far as I can tell...
1. it's way too easy to deploy a rail resulting in constant, incessant conflict
2. there isn't a centralized way to tell what's under siege
3. there's too much difference between a brand new Tenno and someone who's MR15 numerically which completely overwhelms the value of skill
4. there's no way to augment your own rail's defenses5. there's no challenge (because of 3 and 4)
I've got a ton of other suggestions, but fixing those alone would IMO turn it into an endgame. It would need more to be a good endgame, but it would be something...
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-Getting long-time players to continue playing is more important to them. The tutorial is the only thing that really needs work, I think, it doesn't even explain that you can run up walls. Also at the moment it's got an awful bug tied to it.
-Yeah, they do need to balance frames. "But it's co-op!" doesn't excuse it, I tell D&D players this and D&D rules can actually be changed by individual groups. It's not well-balanced for co-op either. Ember is only useful against Infested. Frost is only good in Defense and Mobile Defense (a stop-gap was placed to stop the difference between having him and not having him being so big, but they didn't retool his other abilities well enough to make him much more useful outside of those missions). Rhino isn't egregiously OP, but he's just good in every single mission. Trinity can make the entire team invincible, now put Streamline and/or whatever mod increases power duration on her. So yeah, frames need to be balanced.
-Well that's why you go off on your own where your party won't shoot down the enemy. :P Anyway I haven't really had problems finding Uncommon stance mods, but hey, RNG.
-Yeah, no shields is basically an auto-lose for anyone not Rhino unless you focus entirely on armor and health, in which case you've wasted some mod slots and points if you don't end up with no shields, meanwhile every other mode is easy.
-Don't really see it as a problem, this is a very minor one really.
-AI is pretty good, it's just that it treats this like a traditional skirmish, while the Tenno can just run up to them and shoot them in the face while taking only minor damage which will automatically be healed because warframe shields regen.
-Yeah, definitely agree on the "no benefits" part. But as for the costs part, see my next point.
-I don't see this really being a problem after we've seen the terrible things caused by everyone trying to move in at once. Most people will back off and just play the no-tax Infested missions. Maybe one or two alliances will try to take one, motivated by pride, but I don't think it'll really keep up like this.
-Stunlock? For what?
-It would be a skinner box if the gameplay was mindless like in WoW (outside of new raids that you don't have the timings down for), or an older skinner box, the slot machine. The gameplay itself is fun and engaging. But the gameplay isn't that difficult, so it's kinda teetering on the edge.
So yeah, a lot of your points are good, but I don't agree with all of them.
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Random thought time, maybe Scott is like Molyneux.
I don't really want to get this thread muddled in terms of arguing about the finer points, but...
Early Game Progression
No, getting mid-game players to keep playing is most important. They have yet to give vets endgame. Dark Sectors and Nightmare both could have been, but both implementations were terrible.
Stances
My point was that you shouldn't have to be grinding them. Something so integral shouldn't be RNG-locked. It's like getting a new frame and then having to go grind to find its abilities because they don't come with it.
Energy
The problem is that energy is unreliable. You never know when you're going to have it and when RNG is going to curse you and refuse to give you blue orbs. Other times, it gives them in excess, enabling power spam that needs to be held in check by high energy costs.
AI
There are some things it is terribad at. Other things it's inhumanly good at.
Dark Sectors
Unless rails are made more rare through, their deployment won't be exciting. At the moment, anyone and their brother can buy one, so we're just inevitably going to be in constant conflict.
Stunlock
I don't understand the question.
Skinner Box
There's zero difficulty which is what makes it so bad. If the game was actually challenging (challenging != bullet sponges) and skill mattered, it wouldn't be nearly as bad.
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Many of us vets are in technology development including a few in this thread. (surprise! tech ppl love videogames).
DE is doing a lot of good work, but its often the wrong work.
People were telling DE last year that combos would not help melee's viability, and other important feedback. Instead of honing in on the real issues, DE builds a beautiful solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
When melee was rarely used bc of low viability compared to guns/powers....Did you ever say to yourself:
"Gee, if these normal swings were more complex to execute, and my charge attack cost energy yet did less relative damage....maybe melee would be MORE viable compared to my Soma?"
And how about during Damage 1.0, when DE tackled rainbow build & lack of diversity:
"You know what would be better than having to stack elemental damage on every gun? Having to Stack elemental damage on every gun in a particular order - solely depending on which faction you're fighting!"
Somewhere in the dev process, the problem-solution dialog is being abandoned in favor of... "you know what would be AWESOME? ninja stances & guns that melt faces off!"
And for the life of me, I can't figure out why they do that, especially when RNG is involved. RNG can have some good uses, but the rate they use it is over the top.
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this will work amazingly well for the next 2 weeks, and then totally revert to normal once the bulk of the active playerbase has the stances.
I guess it won't be worse than it is now, at that point in time.
And how will you feel when you pick up your 50th snipetron bp? Still valuable?
Everyone needs to remember, the game will continue after you get that one item you're currently searching for (snipetron/tranquil cleave).
Let's try to think of ideas that have more longevity.
Exactly what I was going to say.
I'd be fine with adding ability mods and stance mods to Specter drops, but that can't be the only reason to fight in the Dark Sectors.
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Just make every ability use every stat somehow.
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mods 2.0 broke puncture for the longest time and makes duplicates near useless.i think they just need to take there time and slowly go through the old systems reviewing and replacing them to make them fit the game better. eg 2.0 everything
Damage 2.0 didn't actually fix builds or armor growth. It just added combo elements.
Melee 2.0 just added RNG-gated combos and underpowered channeling without actually fixing the fundamental problem with enemies dying before you get there.
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Just increase purchase cost drastically and increase node count. It'll regulate itself after that.
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I'm reaching the same point I did around U7 where I'm questioning the path of the devs and considering leaving for a while... There's so much cool stuff to do in this game... But time and again, I'm seeing things marred by excessive RNG, absurd numerics, or just plain poor design/implementation.
Look, I'm not expecting perfection from DE. But.. It's just so discouraging to see the same sort of things happen again and again and again.
And before someone tries to suggest that I should give suggestions, take a look at my post count. Most of those were giving suggestions or commenting on those of others. For a list of the bigger things I've tried to draw attention to, take a look at the mega-thread list on this page. There are other things that I haven't even released yet (one is about mods for instance, but it uses the reasoning provided by another unreleased document whose author has elected to wait given the upheaval of U13).If you really want specific problems, see the spoiler...
-Major problems with the new player experience like power growth
-Obvious balance problems with frames and weapons that could be fixed (or at least stop-gap-fixed) with mere number changes
-Obvious QoL problems with frames that have simple solutions that the community came up with a year ago
-Difficulty that is entirely numerical
-Melee 2.0 introduced RNG-gated combos and poor channeling mod options while completely forgetting that you can't kill an enemy that your ally killed from 30m while you were running towards that opponent
-Damage 2.0 didn't actually fix builds or armor scaling, it just added combo elements (which IMO are cool, but didn't actually fix anything). Admittedly, it did fix the hyper-reliance on armor ignore and made armor scaling less harsh.
-Mods 2.0 standardized mod value (not even sure this is a good thing), added pretty pictures (which admittedly are really cool), broke puncture for the longest time, reduced mod slots which resulted in reduced flexibility of builds, and made duplicates near-useless
-Nightmare uses RNG to determine which handicap you're given, none of which bother some frames, so most players just revert to using Rhino
-Egregious grinding keys for bosses. Lephantis was problematic at implementation, but was balanced with new players in mind (I can accept that, but I wish instead they'd have made the cost of keys slowly scale up over the first few weeks of the update to allow existing players access to it). Vay Hek is just insane and I'm never going to farm those. I just won't. It took me 42 runs to get Nyx. I'm not going to tolerate far more than that.
-Fundamental problems with the energy system's RNG nature and utter dependence on Energy Siphon (or expendable objects which are in opposition to the spirit of the game)
-AI is stupid
-AI aimbots you no matter what you're doing or how many times you teleport out of their field of vision
-Leaders don't actually cause you to play differently
-Dark Sectors ownership offers no benefit and is actually a bad thing (even with a 100% tax rate, you couldn't recoup your battle pay and repair costs with the current way things are)
-Dark Sectors will always be in constant conflict unless Solar Rails have their cost increased by an order of magnitude or two to actually account for the fact that they're being built by alliances of 4k players. Right now, I can nearly build one myself. That's absurd.
-Stunlock isn't avoidable
-I could go on much longer, but the most important thing is this: everything is a skinner box. There's no time to just sit back and enjoy playing the game for its own sake because the meta is dominated by "must... get... next... item..." The game is constantly putting up goal posts. Just as you reach those, others are put down. It's a never-ending feeling of incompleteness. It's as if the game doesn't want you to just play it.
Look, I'm sure I'm not right about everything. I'm sure I don't have the best ideas to fix things. But there are problems out there, problems that the community has identified with ease that just go unfixed for so long when the change isn't even that large.
Does Scott need subordinates to help him? Maybe he's just overworked... Maybe Steve is the one that needs assistance? I don't know... They come on the streams and talk perfect sense, but the implementation just doesn't line up with that... It's just a disconnect... Why?
It would be so easy to pump out conspiracy theories. They've given us tons of conspiracy fodder. I've elected not to, but it would be so easy...
What's the problem here? Why does this keep happening?It's not like they don't pay attention to the community. There are several forum members (myself included) that the devs recognize when on the streams and one of our questions is read off. Many of these members post routinely reasonable and constructive suggestions that would improve the game (myself hopefully included). The devs post hot topics. Rebecca posts a ton in threads trying to help out players and relays information to the devs she finds particularly important. I don't mind that Steve and Scott post rarely. In my own experience as a dev, when you do post and you're an actual designer, not just a CM, you get bombarded by requests and your own opinion is taken as the official view of the team. I can empathize with that.
I just don't get it... What's going wrong? I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but just calling them inept or money grubbers is a whole lot easier...
EDIT: after some discussion, I came up with this and I think it pretty well describes the problems we're having...
while(true){ Problem p = community.findProblem(); devs.notice(p); Content c = devs.addCoolStuffRelatingTo(p); if(c.isCool) { devs.release(c); continue; } devs.fix(p);} -
Just let people forfeit and get no return on investment. If they were more expensive, I'd say give them back 50% of the purchase cost times remaining health, but they're so cheap that there's no point.
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Raw numerical difficulty is a terrible idea. Level 200 mobs are just bullet sponges that instagib you with hitscan guns the moment you come into their sights. It'll just lead to Trinity abuse.
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True. It doesn't make sense for a group to simply give up though, as dealing damage to the other rail, even if you don't win, will loosen their hold on the node enough for someone else to take it.
Giving up should end up dealing damage to the surviving rail roughly equal to what it would have if the conflict had lasted the entire duration. Maybe slightly less to avoid too much abuse.
Avoid too much abuse? Any ability to do guaranteed damage on an enemy rail will be abused. Individual players can afford these things.
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I'd guess Loki, Volt, or Trinity Prime.
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In the end, this PVProxy gameplay won't be motivated because you'll have to sacrifice your power. It won't be contiguous and will like a gimmick. It'll be a minigame where half the players get to play the game they love and the other half have to play a minigame they won't. The only people I see liking playing as Proxies are trolls because that's all you are. Proxies are speedbumps. That's all they are.
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even if you keep your gear, you don't get to keep your power level.Sorry, just edited my prior reply to clarify. Yes, that is critical, of course.
Yes, you get to keep your weapons when you play as a proxy. You cannot however use your normal mods on them, so DE can set the damage as they feel appropriate for each weapon's proxy version.
You can't keep your frame but we can easily remedy that with Warframe Auras (ex: Saryn's Aura) which replicates some of the unique powers of each frame once enough mastery/focus/forma/have been used on that Frame. Some = alot, like multiple forma.
EX:
Rhino Aura - no stat bonuses (tradeoff compared to the standard auras) but allows you to select Proto Iron Skin and Proto Stomp among your abilities.
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Why not just use a gun?
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what's wrong with trying to add content that isn't just a Skinner box?And then the players actually playing Tenno will complain, because, like I just said, it's PvE content. The game is about PvE. The players here are playing for PvE. The people actually providing the finances for DE to keep this going, are doing it for PvE. They don't want to have to deal with PvP content to acquire anything, even if it's just cosmetic fluff.
And again, as I tried to get across earlier, this entire thread is moot because the issue of longevity is a non-issue. It's not a problem that needs solving. The current system may not be perfect (far from it, I'll agree) but it is keeping players around. I've got nearly 600 hours invested over about a year, and I'm nowhere near done accomplishing what I want. According to Raptr, I'd need to play about 3,000 more hours to be the #1 ranked WarFrame player on their system. I run into players all the time that have a higher mastery rank and more stuff than I do. That should tell you all you need to know about the longevity of this game. Sure, it's not something that appeals to everyone. But then, nothing is. For every player currently playing this game who wants PvP in any format, there's probably at least a hundred who would quit if they made PvP mandatory for any reward of any kind, or if PvP was allowed to influence the game overall in any way. That's what happens when you market your game towards PvE players.
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I have yet to run out of things to do, I help out in my clan a lot and when Earth had the hell that was Interception I helped out many new players there. I've ran early missions to help out too. I've found it very rewarding to help somebody through something they may consider hard, then offer out a clan invite if they like (note I do not promote my clan when helping them, I do it afterwards so they can get more help faster and enjoy the game)
Ultimately everything in a game is consumable content. What we need is enjoyable, perhaps re-playable content.
Have not grinded for the Prosecutors or the keys (although I have found fighting them and Vay Hek extremely fun). They are getting better with the content, I am absolutely loving melee 2.0 (the guys in my clan simply know that one dot in the middle of the enemy army is me, having my own party).
I'm vastly looking forward to Focus and the quest system. Whether they put in keygrinds or not doesn't matter too much to me, however it will of course matter to many other people. Maybe they'll get better with grinding? Who knows. I've played RO and FFF, so grinding is not unknown to me. I tend to enjoy each run (start run, put on music, go nuts), whatever reward I get at the end.
You sound like a pleasant player to play alongside, but consumable content spam (which is what DE is doing) forces the devs into creating skinner box after skinner box. That's just not as satisfying over the long haul.
Don't get me wrong. I want quests and Focus. I think Focus will be really cool. It's just that it'll be consumable. People won't play it for its own sake. We've got too many skinner boxes in this game. We need to get away from that for a more satisfying experience.
This is the key. The urge to 'catch em all' + the desire to be the most uber 'warrior god' is the answer.
The PvProxy needs to reward the 'warrior god' without giving it an advantage over people who don't PvProxy. To that end, lotus tokens should also be obtainable in other systems besides PvProxy.
The Lotus Token metagame is a starting point for that. My overall vision is very visible power/weapn customizations with very minor stat alterations.
Ex: Your Zephyr can use Lightning Storm instead of Tornado. Same damage, duration and effect, but deals only elec damage and looks like stacks of rolling thunder. 500K lotus tokens
Ex: change base damage on your Bronco Prime to Fire for 1M Lotus Tokens.
I think you missed my point. If I grind for a hundred hours to get the loadout of Boltor Prime, Marelok, Rhino Vanguard Prime, Dual Ichors, Carrier, Stinger, do you think I'm going to want to give up all that to play a dumbed down enemy that I could have played as without spending that hundred hours? Unless your progression in the main game matters when you play as a proxy, no one will want to be a proxy. It won't be fun. Endgame is when players play content for its own sake, not to get a specific reward. Your lotus tokens just turn DS into another skinner box.
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At first glance, it looks that way, but nope. Any time you're playing against something, it's a lot easier to find glaring imbalances (whether perceived or actual). Then the complaining starts. Then the balancing-for-PvP starts. It doesn't matter if it's not supposed to be balanced.
The fact that players are controlling proxy frames instead of their normal frames won't keep this from happening.
If the whole premise is actual Tenno attack proxies, I really don't see that happening. Will some abilities be exceptionally powerful in this game mode? Of course. But if that's the case, give the proxies some answer to that, don't nerf the Tenno unless that ability causes problems in PVE too.
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And who would want to play for the gimped side?
There would be nothing but outcry for balance.
Exactly... And pitting glass cannons against each other (face it, that's what we are, even Rhino and Valkyr) becomes a game of "who can hit first."
Road To Design Council
in General
Posted · Edited by Volt_Cruelerz
Right now, there's already a system in place for elevating good, productive forumites to the Design Council. Every month, the devs pick a few people from the forums that routinely post good feedback and add them to the DC.