Survival Mode Was Supposed To Address Endgame... ?!

[r3dzer0]

My point is that you remove the bosses from current gameplay, atleast as bosses, have miniskirmishes with them, where they teleport out much like the stalker.  Have a big battle with each of them being bosses, in the true sense, not just a glorified heavy.  and then you can have them lead to eachother as far as content allows it.

[alocrius]

The "survival mode" was never the "end game" answer. Maybe i intrepreted it different but from what i understand, it was a new game mode to replace the raid/spy which was mentioned in the previous live stream as the least played game.

 

Right now, the word "end game" in warframe forum has become a taboo for me. Seriously, it all started with 1 post and the next thing you know, *bam* countless of other postings with the word "end game" has been poping out left and right by other people.

 

Honestly, do you see AN end game for warframe? Warframe isnt one of those typical regular mmorpg out there. Grind, Build the biggest or most devastating weapons & wage massive war;clan wars/region wars@pvp/massive boss hunts. Those are end game contents for some of the mmorpgs out there but what about warframe? Do you want warframe to be exactly like that?

 

Yes, i am also very tired of grinding and leveling weapons/frames for the mastery rank sake which serve no purpose. I am also tired of the bugs/glitches and nat issues however Warframe to me has so much potential to expand on. It's a question of time.

 

So many people have been posting about end game content. seriously? you want an end game content now?? with some of the bugs/glitches/fine tuning/rebalancing/armour, damage, frames being rework going on now? what about dojo system and UI matters?

 

My take on this, i say give De time to work on all these issues before looking at "end game content". just my 2cents op.

 

Just understand I made this post because this is actually the response Steve gave to the communities concerns regarding endgame, updating gameplay, direction of warframe, etc..   watch the beginning of livestream 12 and see for yourself.  Survival mode and polishing missions was essentially their answer to these concerns.  I think that needs to be commented on and critiqued, that with all the community feedback and talk we have had going on for months here, the Devs still seem absolutely clueless about updating gameplay.  Survival mode is the absolute last thing I would have imagined Warframe needed right now, in a hierarchy of needs.  

 

You guys are missing the point of the post which is, the devs have nothing constructive to say regarding our concerns about burnout, longevity, direction.. in their words polishing the missions and survival mode is what we have to look forward to.  I think that is a pretty nearsighted perspective, again, considering all the feedback here on the forum.  Polishing the missions isn't really addressing the issues.  It's avoiding them, which is what DE has been doing the whole time.

Edited September 6, 2013 by alocrius

[alocrius]

I don't remember ever hearing or reading that survival is/was supposed to address the lack of end game content.

If the xp and loot drops remain the same it actually will shorten the amount of time you need to progress through "content". Kind of the opposite of addressing "longevity".

You don't remember it but it doesn't change that survival mode is what you're getting for endgame. That's the point.  Enjoy.

Edited September 6, 2013 by alocrius

[Lord.Finster]

Darksouls is a highly scripted single-player game. You can tackle problems differently with different classes but in the end it is the same storyline 90% of the time. I don't deny that there is good replay value but after finishing 5 times you're done. Every good story gets old in the end.

 

Warframe is non-scripted coop game. The exact opposite. It has little story and little script (except the bossfights). Maps are randomly created, enemies spawn randomly, loot drops randomly.

The design challenge is not to introduce more scripted events or expanding the lore (even though its nice to have) but to create a deep and challenging setup from completely random assets.

 

In scripted games you will eventually know what's around the corner by replaying it.

In warframe you'll never exactly know and that is what this game has to turn into a strength.

[neKroMancer]

Darksouls is a highly scripted single-player game. You can tackle problems differently with different classes but in the end it is the same storyline 90% of the time. I don't deny that there is good replay value but after finishing 5 times you're done. Every good story gets old in the end.

 

Warframe is non-scripted coop game. The exact opposite. It has little story and little script (except the bossfights). Maps are randomly created, enemies spawn randomly, loot drops randomly.

The design challenge is not to introduce more scripted events or expanding the lore (even though its nice to have) but to create a deep and challenging setup from completely random assets.

 

In scripted games you will eventually know what's around the corner by replaying it.

In warframe you'll never exactly know and that is what this game has to turn into a strength.

 

The problem is DE have been unable to tap the potential to the fullest. Sure, unscripted events are good for Warframe since it's the pros of creating randomized tileset. So far, we only have one random encounter event; Stalker. 

 

What's around the corner? More mooks, most of the time.

 

However, Steve also mentioned something about adding VIP or Captain with aura to AI factions to spice thing up. I agree with this idea though. Warframe as a dungeon crawler lacks subboss/unique monster. Comparing to Diablo or other ARPG, we don't have ;

 

Steve the Pink Ancient [Lv60]

Extra strong, Extra fast, Spectral hit. 

[whitejackale]

Survival mode was fun for about 20 minutes. Then it was obvious that it was more of the same repetitive gameplay.

[whitejackale]

Darksouls is a highly scripted single-player game. You can tackle problems differently with different classes but in the end it is the same storyline 90% of the time. I don't deny that there is good replay value but after finishing 5 times you're done. Every good story gets old in the end.

 

Warframe is non-scripted coop game. The exact opposite. It has little story and little script (except the bossfights). Maps are randomly created, enemies spawn randomly, loot drops randomly.

The design challenge is not to introduce more scripted events or expanding the lore (even though its nice to have) but to create a deep and challenging setup from completely random assets.

 

In scripted games you will eventually know what's around the corner by replaying it.

In warframe you'll never exactly know and that is what this game has to turn into a strength.

All games that have randomly generated tiles stop being random after you have seen all of the tiles.

[Guest]

Well one thing is for sure

 

Survival is a hell'ova lot more fun than Mobile Defence

 

IMO

[DJSmash]

Just understand I made this post because this is actually the response Steve gave to the communities concerns regarding endgame, updating gameplay, direction of warframe, etc..   watch the beginning of livestream 12 and see for yourself.  Survival mode and polishing missions was essentially their answer to these concerns.  I think that needs to be commented on and critiqued, that with all the community feedback and talk we have had going on for months here, the Devs still seem absolutely clueless about updating gameplay.  Survival mode is the absolute last thing I would have imagined Warframe needed right now, in a hierarchy of needs.  

 

You guys are missing the point of the post which is, the devs have nothing constructive to say regarding our concerns about burnout, longevity, direction.. in their words polishing the missions and survival mode is what we have to look forward to.  I think that is a pretty nearsighted perspective, again, considering all the feedback here on the forum.  Polishing the missions isn't really addressing the issues.  It's avoiding them, which is what DE has been doing the whole time.

 

Am i being too open minded? Or narror minded? What is the objective of this post really? A discussion? A rant? A feedback? A suggestion?

What is this post suppose to accompolish? What does OP intend to achieve with this post?

 

As the title of this post says "Survival Mode Was Supposed To Address Endgame... ?!"

You got the answer. No it isnt. it was one of the new game mode that DE intends to implement in future.

 

I wouldnt use the word "clueless" but rather, different dirrection@focus.

 

I also think its rather unfair to say "the devs have nothing constructive to say regarding our concerns about burnout, longevity, direction" when you could get answer(s) from livestream #12 itself. Yes i have watched it and no, i dont intepret their message like you do and i've also read the summary which you can see at: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/forum/21-gameplay-feedback/

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/forum/21-gameplay-feedback/

Thank You For Watching Livestream #12!

Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/warframe/b/445705396

Youtube:

 

A summary with timestamped videos:

Stream starts with introductions, and we go right into a pressing issue:

"Players are disappointed that we aren't focusing on the right things. People that aren't interested in new weapons, etc. What about the burnout? What about the general things we need to be addressing that people feel we aren't? Mods? Mod pool? Missions not being revamped? Auras not being useful?"

http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=4m10s

Steve has been quoted saying burnout is an issue, if we don't diversify things we lose out.

"What about us giving weapons when people want more interesting gameplay?"

Steve - "This is all we've been talking about internally. Initially our pattern was to add locations, enemies, etc. Now that we've fleshed out that we need to speak to the long-term player. The early term players still exist, people still experience the game as noobs. For veteran players worried about our focus. We hear them, we are overhauling the damage system - not from scratch, but making changes to how elemental, physical, and armor piercing damage in game. We have a narrowing build diversity in higher end content. We have all of our level designers right now taking mission types, tearing them apart, putting them back together. It's not fair to say the game play is boring, it's that game play after 500 hours is boring. We will put more effort into diversifying what you can do.  Mission types, damage model, dueling, are short answers. But also coming are new locations."

Scott - "Talking about the Mod Pool, high-end players have to remember that every mod could be valuable to a new player. There is a gradual progression to high end things, mods are valuable along the way. There has to be a gradient of value."

 

- We hot-fixed the Fusion Core bug 9.5.3. The each enemy got it’s own Drop Table in 2.0, cores were put on select enemies, but NOW they are back to having a chance to drop from every enemy.

 

- Mod Stacking ever? Yes. The UI will eventually show duplicate mod stacking.

 

- Personal scores for nodes are coming.

 

- An Achievement system is coming!

 

Moving on to questions  http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=14m4s

- Are we aiming for tiers in weapons? Do you want weapons to be all equally viable like the Warframes, or do we want tiers?

Scott: ‘In the ideal world, they would all be viable. We’re trying to have versions of weapons viable at every level – high and low level snipers. Obviously with mods you can push low level weapons into the high end, they may not be as viable, but if you like that weapon you can be able to use it”

 

- Are you concerned about players avoiding content because of Primes?

Scott: “No, I am not concerned about that. I know there have been suggestions about building primes with original versions of the items, that’s interesting, we haven’t done it in the past, but we’ll take a look at it.”

 

- What about Arid Fear? http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=16m48s

The event ended at 100%. But it was ambiguous. The time was a fail condition and a lot of people thought it meant how long they had to play. We are looking at completely different ways to schedule events as a whole. Community goals, solo goals, everything needs to be restructured. What about the duel stat mods from the event? They will be going into Nightmare sooner than later.

 

- Longdraw asks: What’s the goal for the release of Update 10 and does it have a name? http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=20m9s

Check out this timestamp for tons of cool stuff for Update 10! Somewhat of an “infested” theme.

Derelict Orokin Ships!

Golem boss rework! (http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=22m17s)

Next Warframe is *drumroll*: (http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=24m38s)

Necro Frame!

 

- What about Jetpacks and Grappling Hooks? http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=25m50s

The jetpack probably not, the grapping hook could invalidate wall running, but we are still working on it to polish it up and see! Never say never.

 

- What about that Reputation system? http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=27m18s

A system coming that allows players to give reputation to players at the end of a match. Using this system will create bonuses in squads of high-reputation.

 

- More custom reloads? http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=30m22s

Yes, we love this and are working on it!

 

- What about those custom idles per Warframe? http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=32m38s

3 options will eventually be available for further customization. Check out the videos at this timestamp of the approaches Geoff is taking (Noble, Fiesty, and Default).

 

- Will net code ever not be peer-to-peer? http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=38m3s

Steve says the door is always open, we are making optimizations to the net code side of the game to allow for better experiences with hosting and connectivity in general. We talk about the network model a lot, we know people have problems, people are concerned about us ignoring Strict NAT.There are options we can explore to improve this, we know that a certain portion of our audience that we want to play are having problems, we are not done making that code better.

 

-Skates? What about more wildlife? http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=39m52s

Yes we will add more wildlife!

 

-What about Mod Profiles? http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=42m4s

Yes this is coming. We are adding options for loadouts that reflect the changing damage system. Currently the problem is one best loadout for endgame.

 

- A weapon balance analysis:

The following three weapons have changes coming:

The Ignis is being revamped to have AOE damage around end point, the Grakata will get love with Crit Boost chance, and the Braton series will be reviewed.

 

- Will blocking be more useful?

It was a romantic idea and we put it in game with Stamina in somewhat haste because we loved the concept, but we have room to explore here. We want to make it more viable.

The Stamina system is the next one to be on Scott’s radar (Damage is first).

The damage model is the priority: Armor and Elemental stuff.

 

- Steve is mad we don’t share FanArt on these Streams.  We love Fan Art!

 

-  On the topic of Stealth....

Stealth we don’t really have an update for, we are working on it, but the AI improvements are incremental, we’re making progress but the AI is a huge part of this gameplay.

 

- On the topic of Longswords?

Improvements to longswords being outclassed? Yes, Melee weapons need a broad balance look-at.  Some Alert Only Swords have not received a buff or review in some while, onto Scott’s every growing plate!

 

- What about Vor’s Prize?

Hoping Update 10, Gamescom is a stealing a couple of us unfortunately.

Mag is the next female prime.

 

- Silly question time: If you had to pick one Warframe to protect you, who would you choose? http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=53m32s

 

- Look at updates to our particle system lighting! http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=53m32s

 

- Separate Motion Blur and Depth of Field! Steve will try.

 

- What level set is coming in the future (Not Update 10, but future):

http://youtu.be/QlsqKVzLehk?t=58m24s

Corpus Gas Harvesting Factories!

Come see us at Gamescom, no Livestream on August 28th, moved to September 4th! and thanks for watching!

 

 

 

If that's not constructive enough for you, please please share what you expect - and dont let this post stray off topic like some of the other postings. it serves very little purpose but to clogged up the forum. So far, there's already 2 pages worth of replies. Is anything worth mentioning or highlighting instead of letting it flow to countless of pages?

 

I got own my points and i know what i want for Warframe but if DE has other plans/direction - so be it. What's your take?

[alocrius]

I don't think I can make it any clearer.  DE was pointedly asked what they were going to do about vets concerns they were focused on the wrong things, you know like repetitive grindy content... and they replied we are polishing the missions and here's survival mode.  Turns out survival mode is a repetitive repeat of what we already have.  Hence, the devs are oblivious to what the community is saying.  All we are going to get for endgame is grindy repetitive missions.  

 

I am calling the devs out on their total disregard for the communities feedback about gameplay issues because it doesn't appear from the livestreams like they are taking any of our feedback into consideration.  Yes my topic title was perhaps poorly chosen as it was not a direct quote, but as best as I can tell from having followed the game and livestreams from the beginning, re-hashed, repetitive mission content is all we can look forward to for endgame.  The direction the game is going is flat-out busted.  We all know it, the devs know it, but they are going to do what they are going to do.

Edited September 6, 2013 by alocrius

[A1CZERO]

"Wall of text"

Ah. That makes more sense.

Anything we play repetitively is going to get grindy. I don't think there is anything they could possibly add to the game that wouldn't feel grindy after hundreds of hours.

What would you specifically find not grindy?

[Dasmir]

Still more fun than defence.

[Rathie]

I think that the survival mode was to help the problem but not to fix it completely the game is still getting content added to it frequently and there are a lot of bugs that need to be ironed out still. no one thing is going to solve the problem completely. :) It may take a while or it may come quicker than we thought but I think a solution will come its not something that's ignorable.

 

I did find Survival fun and I would play it a lot more than I did if connection issues were not so annoying

Edited September 6, 2013 by Rathie

[alocrius]

Ah. That makes more sense.

Anything we play repetitively is going to get grindy. I don't think there is anything they could possibly add to the game that wouldn't feel grindy after hundreds of hours.

What would you specifically find not grindy?

 

I totally agree, anything you play for hundreds of hours is going to be grindy.  I understand this and would give DE full credit IF they were attempting to mix the gameplay up and still had an inclination to innovate new content.  I have posted about my ideas for the game as have many others, my ideas are included in one of the big conglomerate threads on improving gameplay (that is always on the front page for some reason...).  The community has already weighed in on what we would like to see.  I keep hoping some of our feedback will translate into the game but each update seems to confirm a very unyielding and conservative approach by DE.

[WeissKreuz]

Let me just throw my wealth of time and experience in here and say that, yes, after 500 hours.... it gets old. Survival mode is not going to get me playing like I used to. I don't need mods. I don't give a crap about more rank. I need something that makes me think, that offers legit risk, and that doesnt require a meta team to win. I am so.... @(*()$... tired... of the RNG being the basis of EVERYTHING In this game. We are smart enough to win a game that demands cunning, planning, and teamwork. I can't even tell what gear and frames my pugs have because the readout is wrong. I fell in love with DE and Warframe because I saw the 'final solution' to my question of 'where the hell have 4man co ops gone?'. It's degraded more and more into a strict meta, with 9/10th of powers and weapons being utterly useless. When was the last time you saw, say, a Trinity, with a ceramic dagger, furis, and grakaka? Never. And you won't. Because the developers are not balancing the game. With in reason, every weapon in the game should be, at least, viable as a choice. Perhaps not the best choice, but viable. Endgame? There is no end game. Only more broken weapons to master. And I have better things to do with my time than that.

[alocrius]

Let me just throw my wealth of time and experience in here and say that, yes, after 500 hours.... it gets old. Survival mode is not going to get me playing like I used to. I don't need mods. I don't give a crap about more rank. I need something that makes me think, that offers legit risk, and that doesnt require a meta team to win. I am so.... @(*()$... tired... of the RNG being the basis of EVERYTHING In this game. We are smart enough to win a game that demands cunning, planning, and teamwork. I can't even tell what gear and frames my pugs have because the readout is wrong. I fell in love with DE and Warframe because I saw the 'final solution' to my question of 'where the hell have 4man co ops gone?'. It's degraded more and more into a strict meta, with 9/10th of powers and weapons being utterly useless. When was the last time you saw, say, a Trinity, with a ceramic dagger, furis, and grakaka? Never. And you won't. Because the developers are not balancing the game. With in reason, every weapon in the game should be, at least, viable as a choice. Perhaps not the best choice, but viable. Endgame? There is no end game. Only more broken weapons to master. And I have better things to do with my time than that.

 

Sounds to me like you are ready to join The Tenno Foundation For Martial Excellence https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/68907-tenno-foundation-for-martial-excellence/

Edited September 6, 2013 by alocrius

[r3dzer0]

@DJSmash  You do not have to interpret anything.  There shouldn't be a reason to read "between" the lines when they say that they are going to introduce survival and polish missions to deal with burnout on players that are 500+ hours.  I'm only at 180 and i'm burnt out.  there's no depth to any mission, enemies are laughable.  One grineer decided that in order to attack me, he would post up on a pillar to guard the direction of a wall.... a wall, no door nothing but one giant wall.  they haven't really fleshed out any idea for endgame content besides playing defense/survival for hours.

 

@alocrius as much as i hate to admit this, we're rather the minority when it comes to the community.  I agree that survival only exacerbates the current problems, and from a lore standpoint there is really no connection, much like with defense.  But unless we get like 100k posts regarding this topic from different players i doubt it will be weighed as the majority.  I do know that we're the most vocal though.  and if that's what it takes is ranting, screaming and yelling, for them to actually hear the players that are burnt out enough to be on the forums rather than in game. 

 

@weissKreuz

Agree with you whole heartedly.  If there were a reason to get mastery beyond just getting that shiny new gun with nothing to really do with it, then perhaps i'd care more about rank as well.  RNG is not a good way to keep players interested in redoing content.  And its horrid how bad it fluctuates.  Maybe instead of armor scaling and health scaling, enemies can get smarter and smarter, and have their xtra hp. that would definitely clear up weapons.  Even if they made armor so that it could be removed if it was pierced that would go a long way to removing power creep, but they really need to clean up and improve the ai.

[alocrius]

@alocrius as much as i hate to admit this, we're rather the minority when it comes to the community.  I agree that survival only exacerbates the current problems, and from a lore standpoint there is really no connection, much like with defense.  But unless we get like 100k posts regarding this topic from different players i doubt it will be weighed as the majority.  I do know that we're the most vocal though.  and if that's what it takes is ranting, screaming and yelling, for them to actually hear the players that are burnt out enough to be on the forums rather than in game. 

 

I just hate to see my favorite game in what appears to be arrested development. I stick around though just to see what Mynki comes up with next. Mynki is the man.

[BlackVortex]

the only real endgame is pvp, look at the online games that survive +5 years, the main aspect of endgame there is always pvp

[r3dzer0]

Yes and no. World of warcraft has both ends. Pvp isn't exactly necessary for pve players nor is pve necessary for pvp players. I know there's people that want pvp and they all seem to forget that as it stands now pvp would absolutely destroy and abolish pve content. Either you'd become to overpowered or too underpowered with regards to pve. Quite honestly on top of that there are a great many players that enjoy pve and don't want to deal with pvp.

[Mietz]

the only real endgame is pvp, look at the online games that survive +5 years, the main aspect of endgame there is always pvp

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaK2VIDN5fI

[BlackVortex]

Yes and no. World of warcraft has both ends. Pvp isn't exactly necessary for pve players nor is pve necessary for pvp players. I know there's people that want pvp and they all seem to forget that as it stands now pvp would absolutely destroy and abolish pve content. Either you'd become to overpowered or too underpowered with regards to pve. Quite honestly on top of that there are a great many players that enjoy pve and don't want to deal with pvp.

the problem with most online pve content is that after a while it starts to become repetitive

all modes in tower were fun, untill you did all of them 5834753 times

in pvp people play 1 map 5849854 times and still arent bored of it, because gameplay always differs from the last game

 

I'm not saying they should start turning this into a pvp game, but unless your a grinder

endgame pve will always become boring when you've done it often enough, hence why they add new tilesets/warframes/weapons

[BlackVortex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaK2VIDN5fI

cool story bro!

[r3dzer0]

I agree, pvp does add to removing monotony from grinding.  However DE has said that they're going to continue down the pve road Reference : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/5898-warframe-faq/  straight from the horses mouth.

 

With that in mind, without content that can't be burned through in milliseconds by millions of players, without limiting the amount of time able to farm a certain item, burnout will come a knockin very quickly after you get everything you want and realise that there is absolutely nothing to do except defense/survival/t3 defense.  and those all get repetitive very VERY quickly.  they are however unlocking some sort of pvp function outside of the dojo, so you may enjoy it while its there, hopefully i do not come to abhor it. 

 

Immersion, via lore, fancy mechanics, and difficulty that scales not via powercreep but rather more difficult enemies due to tactics/ abilities will keep you more on your toes and spending time rather than just going to pvp every time because pve is too damn boring

[protomanex14]

We all honestly know that the thing that keeps this game fresh is the awesome events that they do.

 

Take for instance the event that had a consequence if it wasnt completed. The one where if you didnt complete the objective on the planet before the event ended the planet would have sever resource loss and mobs would be stronger. That was a nice one which motivated the community.

Events such as this would keep the game spicy.