The Stun System (Needs An Overhaul)

[IHWIP]

I am not sure what the dev's ideas are when U10 comes out but I haven't heard much on the broken stun system in this game. I truly feel that this is a broken part of the game and really needs a rework. I do not like the "all or nothing" system we have implimented at all. I feel that stun should be something that could happen whenever a mob is damaged but not every time. I have played many a game and there are various ways to implement but I am a practical guy too and I like the idea of working with what you already have.

The way I see it the game has 4 degrees of stun. 1) Simple Stun, 2) Stagger, 3) Knockdown, 4) Ragdoll.

 

There are various powers that grant these various effects and they will of course need balancing but what I think we need to do is ask ourselves how realistic we want the game vs. your typical "shotgun blast sending an extra flying 15 feet backward" kind of action movie and give varying degrees from there. I will go with the realistic approach with my examples.

 

We have three types of damage available in the game: 1) Hitscan, 2) Travel time/physics, 3) Melee/Heavy Impact

 

Hitscan and your typical bolt weapon would realistically never produce a knockdown or ragdoll. At best you are looking at a stun and a "collapse" where it would be a knockdown but more of a fall in no particular direction. I think the code used for mob's death would work well here as mobs tend to slump down limp when they die. The exception would be bows, explosions and thrown weapons.

 

Melee weapons are really the only weapons that could throw the mobs around outside of explosions and extremely heavy/fast projectiles. These are swung around and due to the various physics can easily lift mobs off their feet. We have to admit that we are using powerful high tech suits that have advanced strength and are probably more dense than a humanoid of the same size. The same goes for most of the corpus mobs, armored grineer and maybe the heavier infested.

 

Each mob could have a set resistance to knockdown/ragdoll based on weight and good old common sense. Hellions, for instance, should be more subject to ragdoll since they have to be light enough to fly around with rocket packs.

 

Some mobs could be given a strong resistance to stun/stagger as well depending on general toughness. The tricky part comes when we factor in armor. Any policeman knows that you don't have to have a bullet penetrate your vest to knock you out. Riot gear is typically designed to deflect lighter things like rocks/thrown weapons so there is two different types of armor. You could be looking at heavy grineer having excellent armor against bullets but not against stunning effects for instance while the shield bearers would probably have better padding with less anti-penetrative armors. Since every mob pretty much is standardized the devs could simply add resistance to stun vs. impact and stun vs. penetration as a global stat instead of armor and then a seperate stun defense. This could even work with the new scaling systems they are working on somehow.

So now what you have is the possibility that a single shot from a lighter round, for instance the Braton, would have a chance to knock out a mob and scale it so that if they really failed their check they could be out cold for quite a while. A shot from a sniper rifle would have an excellent chance to KO a mob if it survived the shot itself. A strong swing from a small dagger could send a mob flying across the room, bonus points if animation includes a stab and hip flip or something. We are space ninjas after all.

 

The way this would change the game would be spectacular. You could have weapons that are true knock out weapons such as an EMP or replacing Nyx's useless mind bolts with something that just KO'd a bunch of mobs etc. Knocking out mobs would allow melee to be useless more often as the Tenno close in for the kill etc. Those stun/stagger mods that are usually completely pointless would actually be used to increase the odds of stuns. Banshee could have a chance of merely stunning mobs with Sonic Boom vs. sending them flying across the room.

 

Any constructive input into this is appreciated. This is an idea I have been thinking over for quite some time now.

[Adagio]

worth to read, it's something to think about.

 

it is sad (for me) that some people are lazy to read. or maybe implying that something isn't worth to read by a few first line or title.

no offense.

 

-edit:

well, it depends on the individual to judge if something is worth to read or not, it's just i think asking a for a tldr or simply doesn't reading isn't good either .. i don't know, don't mind this post ..

Edited September 12, 2013 by Adagio

[JerichoFayne]

 

Hey guyz I finally finished reading it!!

 

There is some merit to what you're suggesting.  I don't think every weapon or damage type in the game needs to have stun connected with it.  Your ideas for heavy melee weapons & Banshee are pretty interesting, however.

[KingKeif]

Actually, I did read it. I simply don't like the physics he mentioned so I found a nice picture of the pope.

[MeteorKing]

I would hate to be swinging around my melee and have dudes suddenly out of range. It's fine on particular weapons (kogake and kestrel) or specific attacks meant to do that (jump attacks), but not for something added across the board.

[MalusCalibur]

I'll confess that I investigated this topic under the notion that it would discuss and decry the excessive amounts of stun/stagger/knockdown applied to the player - certainly a core problem with the game.

Personally, as far as stunning enemies goes, I'm fine with the system as it is.

Edited September 12, 2013 by MalusCalibur

[Malaheart]

Yes, this is another flawed system in Warframe that needs to at least be looked at. But I don't think you can judge what a weapons stun/stagger rate based off of whether it is hit scan or not. It should be judged based off the type of weapon it is. There are hit scan weapons that have very heavy impacts. But I do agree shotguns need multiple degrees of "stun" as they have a great deal of force behind the shot. So it should have a high chance of staggering and a low chance of knockdown. Also it could be applied to massive damage, if you are able to do more than a 1/4 an enemies health in a single shot they have better be at least staggered. On the topic of armor I'm not really sure it needs to interact with "stun" system. I'm not sure. It would be much easier for DE to just assign individual enemies or enemy classifications there own "stun" resistance. Although if you wanted to also have this system affect players and give Steel Fiber an extra use then possibly.

 

To your final point, honestly I think you have a good point with stun system but I don't think Warframe needs to get as complex as a chance to have every round knock a target out. We don't need insta death effects in the Warframe (Stealth kills aside), It's just not that kind of game.

[gell]

-1

 

I don't want inconsistency in enemy reactions. Granted, stun is a random chance on most things, but at least the difference is standing there, or standing there not shooting. It doesn't mean all random is bad, just random in how the enemy could react when hit, and so this form of stun change is not ideal to me.

 

Also, I hate the extreme ragdolling in the game and would like to have less of it. The suddenly weightless bodies are silly. If David Rosen can blend physics with his animation, a much larger studio like DE could figure it out. Ragdolls in WF look terrible. The slumping down when dying is the only ragdoll that currently looks decent.

 

I don't have much issue with how stun is now. I might have done it differently, but I think it works. What may be confusing for some folks is when things are stunned and how you can increase that chance. Knockdowns are great and if you use a weapon that does it consistently, it's extremely useful.

[IHWIP]

Well, this was a raw suggestion. The question really is, how radically would we want to change the dynamic of the game? I think the current one is broken with the all or nothing. Obviously some want consistency but is it really that consistent when certain enemies are just completely immune? And what about the general uselessness of the mods? +15% of 100% is still absolute certainty so why use it?