Lost Interest

[Archistopheles]

As with any topic, I love throwing my opinion out there, and this is no exception.

 

Has anyone ever wondered why the people who lose interest always cite farming or grinding as the cause?

 

Well, that's because farming and grinding are boring. If that's all you do, you will get bored/burnt out.

 

The only way to resist boredom and burn out is to vary game play. Goals need to be microscopic and imaginative when entering a game with no defined victory conditions.

 

Examples I have used? "Explore an entire Derelict level" "Try for 100% accuracy this mission" "Wall-run every single room whilst rushing this map" "Do not take damage this mission"

 

Break out of your routine. Hate rescue missions? Do one solo: Bonus points, Pick Ceres Rescue. I guarantee the blood will start pumping again when you no longer can just sleep-walk through a mission and collect Farming Object #10,000 to craft Elite Clan Item XY because OMg it's brand new guis!!!!11!!

 

That brings me to false sense of achievement and illusion of choice. The void is a death trap. Actually, I'll save that for a different time.

[ZeroPhobic]

yeah.

I went and am still going to college, first for game and simulations and now for business. So I also have some background in this, if we want to talk about basic game design we can, but this post is about locking any basic resource at all, that is flawed by design, it has nothing to do with how they explain it to us or how they present it to the player base. A basic resource should be something found in the regular game, where every player high level or not has a chance to get it and farm for it, for a day they may need to use it for their weapons or whatever. To go and farm materials to make a key for the sole reason to farm another material is a grind wall. There is no other way to phrase it.

 

If this were a MMO or some other model, grinding for keys might be the order of the day and fine for those type of players, but for this game and how it is set-up it is choking some of the fun for players. If you don't believe me, look at ALL the other posts saying exactly the same thing. So, we can debate and say this is great design or not all day, but the simple fact is, it is hurting a portion of the player base and pushing people away from wanting to play. I am sure with your experience in designing games that is not something you or any other desinger would want as an effect of their changes to their game. And that is exactly what is happening, even if it isn't happening to you or your clan.

Edited September 27, 2013 by ZeroPhobic

[ZeroPhobic]

As with any topic, I love throwing my opinion out there, and this is no exception.

 

Has anyone ever wondered why the people who lose interest always cite farming or grinding as the cause?

 

Well, that's because farming and grinding are boring. If that's all you do, you will get bored/burnt out.

 

The only way to resist boredom and burn out is to vary game play. Goals need to be microscopic and imaginative when entering a game with no defined victory conditions.

 

Examples I have used? "Explore an entire Derelict level" "Try for 100% accuracy this mission" "Wall-run every single room whilst rushing this map" "Do not take damage this mission"

 

Break out of your routine. Hate rescue missions? Do one solo: Bonus points, Pick Ceres Rescue. I guarantee the blood will start pumping again when you no longer can just sleep-walk through a mission and collect Farming Object #10,000 to craft Elite Clan Item XY because OMg it's brand new guis!!!!11!!

 

That brings me to false sense of achievement and illusion of choice. The void is a death trap. Actually, I'll save that for a different time.

I love this! I used to play exactly this way, and by this I mean have fun. They (DE) threw me at the grind wall and not the other way round. All I am asking for is to go back to the days when I can just go and have silly fun day and not have to worry about the 8000 of this I now need and the 10000 of that to make the next new shiny thing they decided to drop at stupid silly prices with materials they locked on some map. Please for the love of all thats holy, let me have those silly care free days in the Warframe sun again, and not be trapped behind this grind wall...

[gell]

I went and am still going to college, first for game and simulations and now for business. So I also have some background in this, if we want to talk about basic game design we can, but this post is about locking any basic resource at all, that is flawed by design, it has nothing to do with how they explain it to us or how they present it to the player base. A basic resource should be something found in the regular game, where every player high level or not has a chance to get it and farm for it, for a day they may need to use it for their weapons or whatever. To go and farm materials to make a key for the sole reason to farm another material is a grind wall. There is no other way to phrase it.

 

If this were a MMO or some other model, grinding for keys might be the order of the day and fine for those type of players, but for this game and how it is set-up it is choking some of the fun for players. If you don't believe me, look at ALL the other posts saying exactly the same thing. So, we can debate and say this is great design or not all day, but the simple fact is, it is hurting a portion of the player base and pushing people away from wanting to play. I am sure with your experience in designing games that is not something you or any other desinger would want as an effect of their changes to their game. And that is exactly what is happening, even if it isn't happening to you or your clan.

 

Your posts may have been about Mutagen Samples being hard to get, but it was clear you weren't talking about that entirely since your thread is titled "Lost Interest." No one loses interest because they find getting one resource harder than it used to. You said you did, but that's also because you see it all as a grind wall. Scott said in the stream, and I think it makes perfect sense, that the system was set up to try to give you things that affected more of the game than just the one area you were in. Warframe needed to get away from what it was, and it's odd you like it because it was terrible. Having a big solar system of all totally non-driven content makes for a very boring game, and I know plenty of people who quit due to it. The game needs to make you feel like you are getting things no matter what you choose to do, so DE's intent, or specifically Scott's it seems, was to make playing any map give you nav coords so you could access something else. The quick change from long key craft times to 1 minute showed it was an honest mistake when they laid that system out. The crafting of items to access more items is not a grind wall. The problem here is a lot of people see it as a grind wall because breaking things all down into technical bits, it sure does look like one.

 

But it wasn't done to gate content. Scott said they're looking to make either Lephantis more accessible, or learn from it and make a future boss more accessible, but you can bet if they just do their old "grind a boss 50 times till you get a drop" is going away, and GOOD. It should be. That was killing the game tremendously. The game doesn't need grinds, but it does need to make players feel like they can do pretty much anything and still progress in the game in some form. That's what the Derelict key system is. I, nor my clan, have had any crazy luck or anything with the Derelict. I don't even have Nekros yet, but I've been busy the past couple weeks with only a few hours of gameplay. I think the system is good, and it makes the game feel special. If the keys cost plat only, I could understand the complaints, otherwise it's just one viewpoint vs another.

 

But you're right that one thing is true: whatever reason DE had, it didn't work entirely, because people, including you, see it differently. So either DE needs to change something about the system (which I like, but I'll get over it), or they need to communicate it better, in game, to players how nice it is to be able to go to Mars to look for some gallium while still getting nav coordinates to access a fancy area.

 

Of course, I also see that while this house is being built, we'll have some areas where there's still just foundation, or missing floorboards, not just missing final paint. Things are going to feel a little broken at times when only part of the game is implemented. I have voiced my opinion about how DE should have had more financial backing and didn't charge plat for anything just yet, but instead the game is basically crowd-funded now (probably), and so DE is stuck in this cycle of having to update the game on a consistent basis as if it's already been released.

[Westmin]

Look at it from my view, I have poured materials into my clan dojo and research recipes. I'm running on empty material wise, so I am at almost new guy level when it comes to materials. I do not have a large store up of mats anymore. So I have to go grind for materials to make keys, to get mutagen and then have to grind materials to make mutagen masses and then have to go grind even more materials to finally make one new item.

 

I really do not mind the grind, but that extra step at the beginning to grind to get material for the key to farm for yet another material is not needed. For basic materials it should come, as you say, through playing the game and not a ton of work. You are seeing my point, but from the other side of the street, I'm with you, it should be natural and fun, and that is exactly what I'm asking for.

 

For people with tons of reserves that have had tons forever so this wasn't an issue, congrats! For those of us who have been using tons of materials and have never stopped grinding, this is not a speed bump it is a wall they put up.

I am not on the other side of the street in term of my position, just my perspective.

I was very much in the same position and still am for the most part. My time for gaming dropped off considerably back in July and hasn't really picked up, so every update and patch that brings new things exhaust my stores of resources, as well as having donated $ (forma) to our clan dojo, it does get exhausting. I was particularly frustrated when as my clanmates who have traditionally been less active than me are completing the new infested weapons ages before I can even get half of the salvage required. I stopped donating to optional dojo projects when U10 was around the corner. Even then, it wasn't enough. This is a problem, but it isn't specifically a U10 problem with nav coord drops, which is my point. (@Ced23Ric - This is where you missed the point, from day 1 there was no problem getting nav coords.)

Now, Mutagen Masses aren't terribly difficult to get in quantities appropriate for personal use (i.e. not distribution . . . wrong possession argument...), but you won't get them by rushing through maps, and I suppose my clan was lucky in that we had enough build up to complete the research (as well as most of the people at rank 6 or higher building 5-10 extra mutagen masses before U10). It also did take a day of trying all the key types before it became clear that the only reasonably way to get them was survival/defense (not a problem imo)

On the other hand, the decisions from management or developers to require Salvage for every new addition, and in the quantities it does, is a major problem:

Derelict keys

Mutagen Mass (needing more)

All Bio Weapons (tons needed)

Soma (the "must have")

Just because Salvage drops easier than other resources is not an excuse to require over 100,000 for new content.

Bottom line, and the point that Aristopholes was making is this: I did not let U10 change how I played. If saying "hey, let's do survival [here] instead of [there] for salvage" is enough to get you to quit, that's no one's fault but your own.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Westmin

[ZeroPhobic]

Your posts may have been about Mutagen Samples being hard to get, but it was clear you weren't talking about that entirely since your thread is titled "Lost Interest." No one loses interest because they find getting one resource harder than it used to. You said you did, but that's also because you see it all as a grind wall.

 

I hate to break it to you, but it is very true. It has everything to do with this one aspect. Grinding, as I have said now multiple times in this thread is not the problem, (which makes me wonder if you have read the whole thread or you just wanted to chime in) it is all about them locking a basic resource and where this road leads. I do love this game and never have had a problem with them taking it in any direction they saw fit. After all I go on faith that they are doing it to improve the game for us, but this choice of locking basic resources anywhere is just a bad choice. I hope they see as a mistake, and it looks like they do see, according some other posts. Regardless of what Scott said DE's intention was. All it has done is put a bad taste in many players mouths.

 

I'm happy that there are die hard fans that will play no matter how bad things get and I wish I could see the game in the lens that a small amount of people use to see this game, but I will now and in the future point out where they have made these tragic errors that need some extra thought and hope they take them to heart before they drive players and future sponsors of the game away.

Edited September 28, 2013 by ZeroPhobic

[tels]

Just because Salvage drops easier than other resources is not an excuse to require over 100,000 for new content.

Agreed.

[Grekkatarq]

I would need say that i am not english man and sorry for my poor english. This game is still have potential and interesting but have so much thing which is not fixed well and needed to revise and think about more. Some people angry and frustrated because they thought something about this game and this game went into grind fest. The core of this game is actually the grind and compared other mmo type games this one can also be boring with this but in other hand you can think it's an option to earn everything almost what you want. The quests and mini quests are missed from this game that's why is dead end game actually because no have any end gaming content "in this game never be" or more and varied daily events and monthly contents like few other game. This game is still in beta and we are the players and testers too so need to accept what they made is just a half meal and need more salt. The feedback system is mainly good but sometimes have problems about it because this is a community game also with the great player base but this not enough to keep peoples if they cannot seen anything what they want. As player we can see how things work in surface and which things not really needed or wanted but as indie developer i know how to work something and how much work needed for the final state. They work hard but the direction is not always good and what the peoples said before me not well informed-presented. Not every rant thread mean they hate this game and they doesn't want succes just some people frustrated about game which is still in development. On the dev side sometimes they misinformed and think they are do goodly something and after they face with hundreds of sad/angry people because of lack communication and poor management. Everyone can make mistakes and it's okay if peoples want to learn from their mistakes, but sometimes as player seen they aren't learn. I am not frustrated really about this game because i play less but hardcore or casual players see differ how this game work and what needs. Everyone want that the game fit on their taste but often this is not the reality and needs adopting to the actually game in other way you'll be frustrated and make rant threads. I'll said once again this game in beta still and needs more polishing and content to be a really badass game but the basics already had. Need more petition and community talks in the cultural way and need voting in the hard questions and decide what we want from this game.