New Phobos Boss: Desert Striker

[Hypevosa]

When I think "Grineer" I think crude, old fashioned, brutal, etc.  When I saw the desert skates in phobos the first thing I thought was "Why haven't the grineer incorporated these into combat yet?"  So I pitch to you my idea of the Desert Striker.  I also find the fight with lech and vor to be kind of not really challenging or compelling. (sorry)

Backstory: This is a queen desert skate, approximately 15-20 times the size of a normal desert skate.  When she was discovered by the grineer, they immediately set to trying to kill her.  Unfortunately for them, her back armor was found to be too thick to shoot.  After 3 straight days of combat with the seemingly endless grineer forces, she finally gave in to the need for sleep.  Still unable to kill the slumbering beast, Vor decided that they should set to weaponizing her for use against the tenno.

Grineer scientists restrained the creature (read, put something really, really heavy on it) and proceeded to make combat modifications wherever they saw fit.  Armor reinforcing the undersides of its wings, addition of a large machine gun to its tail to supplement its stinger, muscular augmentation so it could still lift its wings, bladed edges for said wings, flamethrower nozzles and fuel storage for the undersides of the wings, and some special mind control neurodes, bored through its upper shell to give someone riding its back the ability to control it.  After some fabulously successful field testing against his own troops, Vor decided it was high time he tested it on the tenno....

Intro:  The Desert Striker is a big boss found in a large plain desert tile that features a deep recess where the queen is buried in wait for the players.  Once any player enters the area (vor loves when he gets the jump on lone tenno) the Desert striker errupts from the sand, a very large and heavily modified desert skate with a capsule containing a sneering Captain Vor on its back.

 

Combat:  The desert striker features a naturally gargantuan tail barb it can use to fire stingers that are the size of players, at players, as well as a large bore machine gun that winds up and fires, following the tenno as it attempts to line up a stinger attack.  Stingers are persistent for 15 seconds like dead bodies, and can be used as cover against flames/bullets/vor.

Each wing is led with a large bladed edge, if the player is struck by the edge while the striker turns, it will not lead to pretty results.  The underside of every wing also features nozzles where flames shoot out - if players congregate to one side of the Striker, it will use these flame throwers to create tenno barbecue out to 10 meters, if players get within melee range and attempt to destroy the nozzles (gun fire is not effective), the wing will motion back before slamming hard on the ground, where tenno will be stuck in the sand for a while before being able to stand back up - perfect for stinger strikes.  Should all flamethrowers be taken out, the striker will attempt to charge tenno and use its bladed wing to cut them instead.

Vor will teleport out of the protective capsule to harass players, teleporting into the capsule for protection instead of using that yellow sphere.  Once his health is down to 1/3, he will stay in said capsule.

Defeating the striker: There are four methods for defeating the desert striker:

1.  Causing enough damage to soft undersides barely exposed while it attacks will kill it.  This is difficult but doable, and results in Vor hopping out to try and finish the job.  The skate drops blueprints for the Flaming Hands, a set of attachments to the underside of ones hands that fire flames - essentially a pistol ignis with much smaller range - and a chance at an uncommon mod that makes desert skates show up whenever the alarm goes off for phobos missions, so they act to distract enemies.  Their number depends on how many levels the card has.  Vor drops his blueprints for the region that are for the miter/twin gremlins.

2. Get the striker to destroy the protective capsule (takes one strike with its own stinger) and killing Vor.  This nets you vors blueprints, but is much easier than the previous method.  The striker with no commander just becomes dormant, sitting and waiting for a new person to come control it.

3. Get the striker to destroy the control neurodes extruding from its skull while vor is trapped in the capsule.  This causes the desert striker to flee, vor will teleport out and fight you.  You can kill him for blueprints.

4. Get the striker to destroy its control neurodes while Vor is not inside the capsule.  This most difficult, as it means that you managed to get the striker to hit the 3 control neurodes on its head, all while vor was harassing you (he will begin using his orokin artifact's abilities after the first neurode is destroyed).  This causes the desert striker to turn on vor, the striker will begin using its stinger and machine gun to try and kill vor.  If it is given the felling blow, the striker will then bash vor's impaled body with its tail, destroying the minigun attached and burying vor beneath the sand with nothing but his extended arm and part of the stinger that killed him visible.  This possibly yields minigun blueprints (oversized, slows player speed while firing, heavy, tf2, hats, blah), vor's blueprints, and a chance at a rare mod that allows you to start phobos missions riding a desert skate (1.2X player movement speed, runs along hard land, prohibits ninja acrobatics, uses stingers to supplement player attacks, can be leveled up to 3 times increasing damage and movement speed - it can be killed.)

So, what do you guys think?  If I had the talent I'd draw or model it for you :P

[EganMC]

The reason the Grineer don't use the Desert Skates for combat is because the Grineer aren't native to Phobos, but the Desert Skates are.

The Grineer are trying to exterminate the Desert Skates, as viewed by the large amounts of warring between the 2 groups.

So, no.

[mhyr1104]

I call upon the law of Desert Skate rights D: Body modification is illegal D: They have human faces

[Hypevosa]

The reason the Grineer don't use the Desert Skates for combat is because the Grineer aren't native to Phobos, but the Desert Skates are.

The Grineer are trying to exterminate the Desert Skates, as viewed by the large amounts of warring between the 2 groups.

So, no.

So disfiguring augmentation of a creature that they couldn't manage to kill on their own to use against the tenno seems out of place to you?  Really?  And since when have conquering factions not sought to completely subjugate native populations and assets they could not outright destroy when they had good use for them?

No one said the grineer were native to phobos... and no one said they weren't trying to kill eachother either.... did you not read the backstory part?

Edited October 2, 2013 by Hypevosa

[EganMC]

No one said the grineer were native to phobos... and no one said they weren't trying to kill eachother either.... did you not read the backstory part?

 

Ah, sorry.

I didn't read the entire post.

I guess days worth of dealing with morons begins to get to me.

I'm transforming into one.

The backstory you've given it is actually pretty decent...

However...

2 bosses, 1 planet...

Or are you suggesting that they replace Kril and Vor?

Or just have Kril/Vor ride this thing?

 

 

I call upon the law of Desert Skate rights D: Body modification is illegal D: They have human faces

 

[Hypevosa]

Ah, sorry.

I didn't read the entire post.

I guess days worth of dealing with morons begins to get to me.

I'm transforming into one.

The backstory you've given it is actually pretty decent...

However...

2 bosses, 1 planet...

Or are you suggesting that they replace Kril and Vor?

Or just have Kril/Vor ride this thing?

 

 

 

It's ok, I understand that most video game suggestion areas are full of copycats, lazy posts, "make everything easier/cheaper" posts, etc.  So I understand the jading effect is probably in full swing here.

I am honestly kind of wanting to replace krill/vor, because the fight is neither challenging nor compelling.  Vor teleports off on his own and gets killed, everyone focuses on krill just like we were fighting in Exta.... badda bing, budda boom, he's dead, we all go home.  There's nothing really new or interesting save for the fight 2 bosses at once concept.  I honestly just wanted this boss to exist, because I feel it fits well with grineer brutality to do such a thing to animals, and because skates are the only local fauna we've encountered thus far.  This could easily just be a second assassination mission for phobos as well, honestly I wouldn't care - I just see alot of potential for an interesting boss fight, and an interesting concept that make the universe and game more interesting.

[Siubijeni]

Errrr... if having no commander (killing Vor/destroying the pod with the stinger) makes it dormant, why can Vor teleport out to harass you and still have it do anything? Makes no sense.

That aside, I really can't see the Grineer using a beast, brutal or not. Or making a robot/weapon in the form of that beast. That's more of a Corpus thing or Infested thing, depending. And these Desert Skates, why would they have a queen one? They seem remarkably similar to oceanic earth skates, which aren't a hive species. There is no queen, there is no reason for a queen. To give these skates a giant, nearly indestructible queen is just contrived. An anti-deus ex machina.

I do, however, agree that the Phobos dual-boss ought to be replaced (a clan-mate and I are working on our own suggestion), though I think the idea of a dual-boss is good and should be kept. And I think the boss-area for Phobos is fine, and your giant thing wouldn't really work in there.

[Hypevosa]

Errrr... if having no commander (killing Vor/destroying the pod with the stinger) makes it dormant, why can Vor teleport out to harass you and still have it do anything? Makes no sense.

That aside, I really can't see the Grineer using a beast, brutal or not. Or making a robot/weapon in the form of that beast. That's more of a Corpus thing or Infested thing, depending. And these Desert Skates, why would they have a queen one? They seem remarkably similar to oceanic earth skates, which aren't a hive species. There is no queen, there is no reason for a queen. To give these skates a giant, nearly indestructible queen is just contrived. An anti-deus ex machina.

I do, however, agree that the Phobos dual-boss ought to be replaced (a clan-mate and I are working on our own suggestion), though I think the idea of a dual-boss is good and should be kept. And I think the boss-area for Phobos is fine, and your giant thing wouldn't really work in there.

The neurodes are linked to vor's, radio waves or maybe some other electromagnetic transmission.  As long as he's in range he's in control.  (the neurodal link may also be how every local troop in an area knows when one sees you even if he's not said anything yet, they all get an impulse of some sort)

I think that the jackal currently restrained in the grineer galleon that can be found on spy missions would disagree with you on the idea that grineer are not in fact interested in proxies, and I feel that given corpus are the only ones able to make raw robotic proxies, grineer attempts would naturally be mutilated living creatures.

Why does the desert skate have to follow with the earth's ocean skates?  I assume ocean skates attack people regularly, are the size of people, shoot barbs from their tail, have legs to crawl on land etc?  No?  (yeah, they don't)  Then let's just assume that any similarity in shape doesn't mean they are related but might just share some kind of parallel evolution for said shape as would likely be the case.  (and let's also try to not bash other's suggestions in a fictional game as "anti-deus ex machina" just because we have our own suggestions for the future, eh?  And let's not make up terms like "Anti-deus ex machina"... we're taking zeus off the stage?  Or are we putting his rival on the stage?  Deus ex machina was actually the term you were looking for, something made to be for the sake of being.  There's nothing anti about it.)

Edited October 2, 2013 by Hypevosa

[KNIFE_CRIME]

Fantastic to see that at least the community is keen to keep with the lore of Warframe even if DE isn't willing to enforce it (i.e. Nekros), great idea!

[Siubijeni]

No, actually, because Deus ex Machina (by definition) is something that works in the protagonist's favor and solves some seemingly unsolvable problem. So, yes, let's make up terms like anti-deus ex machina because it's directly the opposite: you're throwing up a seemingly unsolvable problem instead of solving it. Not sure where your "Zeus off the stage" comment comes from cause Deus ex Machina means "god from the machine." Nothing about a stage or Zeus to be mentioned. Kindly refrain from lecturing me when I know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

I never said it had to follow the Earth's exactly. I drew a comparison between their biological niches. Obviously they are very different, but the point is there is no reason for them to have a queen. What purpose would your queen serve? What reason is there for her to exist? From everything observable of the behavior of the skates in-game, I do not believe them to possess any hive qualities (they really aren't unlike skates or rays, in fact), so if the queen were implemented the skates would have to be changed. Else why is there a queen that serves absolutely no function? Why is there a queen with no claim on the title?

 

Nor did I say the Grineer were uninterested in proxies. Any militant group would be interested in them. What I said was that building a robot in the form of an animal, or turning said animal into the equivalent, was not their style--also, the latchers and rollers prove they can indeed utilize robotics. The Grineer are an army of clones, and they became that way because of their belief in their genetic superiority. They would not rely upon Corpus creations because they cannot put their full trust in them. Similarly, they would be unlikely to just bolt on a bunch of weapons to a creature they don't understand or trust (besides, how can you be sure it is within their abilities to control something via direct brain or neural interfaces? That technology is likely beyond them, in the realm of the Corpus), no matter how impressive it might be. The inspiration that a culture like the Grineer would draw from the skates is more in line with the Miter--likely a mix of the Tenno glaive and the bone spikes thrown by the skates. If you wanted a vehicle, I could see them designing a vaguely skate-like heavy gunship or tank (like how the Scorpion in the Halo series bears some vague resemblance to its namesake).

 

I am not "bashing" anyone's suggestions. I'm pointing out what I see as the flaws in the idea, the reasons it does not fit into the game. That does not mean I think the idea is stupid or worthless, simply that it needs refinement. If you see that as idea-bashing, you're entitled your opinion--however, I would in that case venture mine: that you're entirely too sensitive and shouldn't be posting in an online community anyway. It's guaranteed that there will be people who don't like your ideas, and some of them will insult your intelligence in the process; I sometimes think that ignorance in the trademark of the internet, which is both ironic and sad.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Siubijeni

[Hypevosa]

No, actually, because Deus ex Machina (by definition) is something that works in the protagonist's favor and solves some seemingly unsolvable problem. So, yes, let's make up terms like anti-deus ex machina because it's directly the opposite: you're throwing up a seemingly unsolvable problem instead of solving it. Not sure where your "Zeus off the stage" comment comes from cause Deus ex Machina means "god from the machine." Nothing about a stage or Zeus to be mentioned. Kindly refrain from lecturing me when I know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

I never said it had to follow the Earth's exactly. I drew a comparison between their biological niches. Obviously they are very different, but the point is there is no reason for them to have a queen. What purpose would your queen serve? What reason is there for her to exist? From everything observable of the behavior of the skates in-game, I do not believe them to possess any hive qualities (they really aren't unlike skates or rays, in fact), so if the queen were implemented the skates would have to be changed. Else why is there a queen that serves absolutely no function? Why is there a queen with no claim on the title?

 

Nor did I say the Grineer were uninterested in proxies. Any militant group would be interested in them. What I said was that building a robot in the form of an animal, or turning said animal into the equivalent, was not their style--also, the latchers and rollers prove they can indeed utilize robotics. The Grineer are an army of clones, and they became that way because of their belief in their genetic superiority. They would not rely upon Corpus creations because they cannot put their full trust in them. Similarly, they would be unlikely to just bolt on a bunch of weapons to a creature they don't understand or trust (besides, how can you be sure it is within their abilities to control something via direct brain or neural interfaces? That technology is likely beyond them, in the realm of the Corpus), no matter how impressive it might be. The inspiration that a culture like the Grineer would draw from the skates is more in line with the Miter--likely a mix of the Tenno glaive and the bone spikes thrown by the skates. If you wanted a vehicle, I could see them designing a vaguely skate-like heavy gunship or tank (like how the Scorpion in the Halo series bears some vague resemblance to its namesake).

 

I am not "bashing" anyone's suggestions. I'm pointing out what I see as the flaws in the idea, the reasons it does not fit into the game. That does not mean I think the idea is stupid or worthless, simply that it needs refinement. If you see that as idea-bashing, you're entitled your opinion--however, I would in that case venture mine: that you're entirely too sensitive and shouldn't be posting in an online community anyway. It's guaranteed that there will be people who don't like your ideas, and some of them will insult your intelligence in the process; I sometimes think that ignorance in the trademark of the internet, which is both ironic and sad.

The term "deus ex machina" comes from the greeks using a machine that would put a god on the stage who would change the scene from being one thing to being entirely another, such as zeus presiding over the battle with troy, and hera seducing him to avert his gaze so the battle would start go go another way, or when Hera is brought on the stage to drive hercules insane in the greek tragedy.  Deus Ex Machina doesn't always pertain to being in the protagonist's favor, unless we're going to say the tragedy of hercules has him killing his family as something "in his favor"?  Not sure what about the idea is "unsolvable" either, you're arguing with yourself on that one considering it's a work of fiction yet unexplained, we can make any explanations we want.

The purpose of the queen would naturally be what it usually is - create and sustain a colony.  Currently we have no set social or biological precedent for desert skates, what is so appalling about this?  Given their territorial nature with all but themselves, I don't see anything opposed to the idea of being a colony based organism.  To make the argument more easily followed, there is absolutely nothing in their current nature that would preclude them from being the bees of phobos in terms of reproduction, heirarchy, etc.

"To a man, the Grineer are a race of clones; products of ancient, half-remembered technologies. Copies of copies, Grineer are produced in industrial quantities, and all Grineer are genetically defective, their genome damaged by the invasive cloning procedures used to birth each generation. However, these defects are as mass-produced as the Grineer themselves, allowing for the rapid standardization of techno-augmetic adaptation between such generations. Indeed, it could be argued that the Grineer are better at fixing broken bodies than they are at making ones that function to begin with. Their homeworld is a polluted, ecologically ruined Earth. They are people acting on an ultimate xenophobia, fueled by hereditary psychoses, and a burning hate of anything and anyone not like themselves. In the end, should they succeed, there will only be Grineer left alive in the solar system."

So, If they're interested in proxies at all, and yet lack the capability to make the raw robotic proxies of the corpus, but they are experts in genomics and physical augmentation, why the hell does this not make sense or seem like it's "not their style"?  All they need to do is stick the grineer face plate on it gut its reproductive capabilities, and abuse it till it's a dead husk.  They can get some use out of it at least - exactly like they plan to do with the warframes and the corpus.  The game actually states that the neurodes are grineer technology - it's already there, and perfectly in their ideology to screw with brains using tech.

 

"Implanted neural-link for controlling augmentations. Grineer design"

Anything else?

I'm not sensitive, but when you come at an idea for a fictional game, and attack it on grounds that don't actually exist since they have not been established yet, you're idea bashing.  Point me to desert skate biology and ecology written by DE and it's fine, I'm wrong, the idea doesn't fit as much as I want it too, but don't make stuff up and say things don't exist that do exist to counter new made up stuff.  When you post your idea that you can support with in game evidence, will you enjoy it when people make up things just to say you're wrong?

Edited October 2, 2013 by Hypevosa

[Siubijeni]

...I give up. This forum is full of idiots who can't see beyond their own ideas and anyone presenting anything that opposes them has arguments that "don't actually exist," and any legitimate points are tossed aside as things "[made-up] just to say you're wrong."

You want to ignore my arguments, fine. But don't throw made up quotes at me: nothing you quoted is from the in-game lore, the faction descriptions on the website, or even the wiki. You probably made it up or took if from someone on these forums who was grasping at straws. The one quote that has merit is taken completely out of context. "Implanted neural-link for controlling augmentations." "Neural" links by definition connect to the nervous system, not their brains. Taking an electric signal sent through their nervous system and converting or amplifying into something that their mechanical prostheses can make sense of is entirely different than overriding a creature's free will and controlling them. That's not something they can do, and it's not the nature of the technology. Reading a synaptic or neural signal is entirely different than what you suggest.

 

You obviously want me to insult your idea, so I will: it's one of the stupidest concepts I've seen. If they can't hurt the thing or damage its shell then how the F*** did they bolt these weapons or the pod on it? How did they drill these "neurodes" into in the first place? How did they bolt a machine gun to its tail without interfering with the natural mechanism of the "reloading" tail stingers? Your idea is so full of holes it makes swiss cheese look like a good foundation.

[LoveYourEnemy]

Ay, made a very similar concept a long while ago: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/94529-a-better-boss-battle-for-phobos-a-giant-skate-concept-art-included/?hl=%2Bphobos+%2Bboss

 

Seriously though, very similar premise to mine.

[Hypevosa]

...I give up. This forum is full of idiots who can't see beyond their own ideas and anyone presenting anything that opposes them has arguments that "don't actually exist," and any legitimate points are tossed aside as things "[made-up] just to say you're wrong."

You want to ignore my arguments, fine. But don't throw made up quotes at me: nothing you quoted is from the in-game lore, the faction descriptions on the website, or even the wiki. You probably made it up or took if from someone on these forums who was grasping at straws. The one quote that has merit is taken completely out of context. "Implanted neural-link for controlling augmentations." "Neural" links by definition connect to the nervous system, not their brains. Taking an electric signal sent through their nervous system and converting or amplifying into something that their mechanical prostheses can make sense of is entirely different than overriding a creature's free will and controlling them. That's not something they can do, and it's not the nature of the technology. Reading a synaptic or neural signal is entirely different than what you suggest.

 

You obviously want me to insult your idea, so I will: it's one of the stupidest concepts I've seen. If they can't hurt the thing or damage its shell then how the F*** did they bolt these weapons or the pod on it? How did they drill these "neurodes" into in the first place? How did they bolt a machine gun to its tail without interfering with the natural mechanism of the "reloading" tail stingers? Your idea is so full of holes it makes swiss cheese look like a good foundation.

Actually, I directly quoted the wiki at you for those things.  Are you blind?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Grineer

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Neurodes

Guess you've never noticed the lore tab for the grineer in game.  if you don't believe me about the jackal, play for yourself, or I can post screenies if you're too lazy.

The brain is also part of the nervous system - actually it's kinda the main controller of the entire nervous system. (I really shouldn't have to post a wiki link, but I don't want to risk you saying I'm making things up you can find for yourself again...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_system

If the neruodes are designed to control augmentations, it is literally around 2 technological steps from the ability to control a creature - you just need the ability to have the control be done by proxy, like through a neurode of your own that has a transmission capability akin to bluetooth or radio.  Given that the grineer regulator can somehow instantly increase speed and damage of grineer near by, is it so far a leap to suggest it may have the ability to force a release of adrenaline or even directly take off inhibitors of the neurodes currently allowing grineer to control their augmentations?

The neurodes' destruction would likely be fatal, not freeing, but that's really just me wanting to create a more interesting fight by allowing for multiple endings rather than just "kill it till it's dead".  This would be possible deus ex machina. (in case you were wondering)

To answer your questions:

1. If you read the description of the skates, they have a hard armor on their back and soft underbellies.  Grineer are notoriously not the best tacticians (stay close to the walls...) and would likely keep trying to shoot bullets at something that was clearly immune to them - the miter blades wouldn't fare much better against such a surface.  You'll notice the invasive augmentations are made to the underside of the wings, where they could more easily add such things.  As for how they attached the guns and capsule, and how they bored through the top to add the neurodes, go into your back yard and try shooting a steel plate.  It doesn't work well.  Now take a diamond tipped drill bit to it, or a plasma torch, or (insert other tool designed for the purpose here) and suddenly you can get through!  They have mining equipment on phobos, such things would be much more effective at boring through a surface than bullets are, thus allowing you to make any attachments you want.

2. Why does the machine gun attachment have to be intrusive to the stinger mechanism?  I assume when you put a ring on your finger you cannot use your finger anymore, right?

There are very easily made explanations for all of your questions.  Anything else?  I believe since you entered this thread I've countered every argument you've made with in game content or lore, as well as presented information for any disputes about concepts outside the idea itself.  If I'm mistaken and missed something, please let me know - I'm not above admitting when there's no good explanation to be had.  Please don't feel too embarassed to return :) I revel in people helping flesh out ideas.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Hypevosa

[Hypevosa]

Ay, made a very similar concept a long while ago: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/94529-a-better-boss-battle-for-phobos-a-giant-skate-concept-art-included/?hl=%2Bphobos+%2Bboss

 

Seriously though, very similar premise to mine.

I'm not surprised I wasn't the only one to think there should be a giant desert skate battle.  That's pretty cool.  I'm sorry I did not do a search first, that was silly of me.

[LegionVangaurd]

Ok what you are suggesting is the grineer invade the technology space of the corpus the grineer are about self augmented clone armys where as the corpus would be the ones to do one of the most useless things of modifying a native animal they can not weaponize in other areas first of all would the grineer really waste time if they spent 3 days trying to kill it to ATTEMPT to modify something they couldnt even hurt in the first place if they could not hurt with there plasma swords sawmen rockets heavy machine guns and every other kinetic based weaponry why do you think they could even cut into its flesh to place implants or augments hell if they had the ability to freely create mental links like this why dont they do like the corpus and make pet giant robots they do not because A: they have no idea how to create complicated machinery B: they have no idea how to build anything everything is mass produced from their augments to the ships they ride the grineer arent so smart as to make stuff on the go like the corpus they basically run around and get handed toys by their queens or purchase it from markets like the corpus in short the grineer are as much as idiots as two year olds anyways back to my point even though these are all in the future the grineer are about as technologically advanced as the infested minus the intelligence that the infested bosses have

[Siubijeni]

Actually, I directly quoted the wiki at you for those things.  Are you blind?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Grineer

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Neurodes

Guess you've never noticed the lore tab for the grineer in game.  if you don't believe me about the jackal, play for yourself, or I can post screenies if you're too lazy. The brain is also part of the nervous system - actually it's kinda the main controller of the entire nervous system. (I really shouldn't have to post a wiki link, but I don't want to risk you saying I'm making things up you can find for yourself again...)

No I am not blind, but anyone can edit the wiki and that was not included last I looked (sides, it actually reinforces Vangaurd and I's argument that it really isn't in their bubble). Maybe you added it yourself, maybe not. You'd just deny it anyway. Also, wtf are you linking me to the Neurode page for? That was the one quote I recognized as legit, it is your interpretation of it that is incorrect. Neither that page--nor anything in game--has anything to support your theory. With the neurodes, they could link up the weapons to a skates nervous system--they cannot control brains! That's not what the things are for. Brains are considerably more complex than nerves, and splicing or reading and transmitting a duplicate signal from nerves is in theory quite simple. You're suggesting a device designed to link their prostheses into their nervous system can in fact be just plugged into somethings brain and not only read synaptic signals at the same rate the brain produces them, but incite specific ones based on what the Grineer want. Doesn't work that way... More, I've seen the Jackal myself. I know it exists and I know what you're talking about. It is again your interpretation thereof and statements regarding it I dispute. I agreed they were interested in robotic proxies in principle, you brought up the Jackal completely out of context. You really need to learn how to read. You're basically arguing against yourself for all the accuracy you've shown.

 

(I really shouldn't have to post a wiki link, but I don't want to risk you saying I'm making things up you can find for yourself again...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_system

If the neruodes are designed to control augmentations, it is literally around 2 technological steps from the ability to control a creature - you just need the ability to have the control be done by proxy, like through a neurode of your own that has a transmission capability akin to bluetooth or radio.  Given that the grineer regulator can somehow instantly increase speed and damage of grineer near by, is it so far a leap to suggest it may have the ability to force a release of adrenaline or even directly take off inhibitors of the neurodes currently allowing grineer to control their augmentations?

It is far more than two technological steps. As I noted above, you're an idiot if you think the nerve-splicing they do is directly translatable to real-time manipulation of the brain. The control interface from reading a Grineer's mind is the only viable part of it.

Also, read the bloody lore about the regulators. Captain Vor brought them along to "bring their messages of encouragement to rile up the troops." Arid Fear Operation under the in-game lore, since you're too stupid to have found that yourself. The effect is entirely psychological, nothing to do with any of the stuff you say. So yes, it is indeed too far of a leap.

 

1. If you read the description of the skates, they have a hard armor on their back and soft underbellies.  Grineer are notoriously not the best tacticians (stay close to the walls...) and would likely keep trying to shoot bullets at something that was clearly immune to them - the miter blades wouldn't fare much better against such a surface.  You'll notice the invasive augmentations are made to the underside of the wings, where they could more easily add such things.  As for how they attached the guns and capsule, and how they bored through the top to add the neurodes, go into your back yard and try shooting a steel plate.  It doesn't work well.  Now take a diamond tipped drill bit to it, or a plasma torch, or (insert other tool designed for the purpose here) and suddenly you can get through!  They have mining equipment on phobos, such things would be much more effective at boring through a surface than bullets are, thus allowing you to make any attachments you want.

2. Why does the machine gun attachment have to be intrusive to the stinger mechanism?  I assume when you put a ring on your finger you cannot use your finger anymore, right?

Grineer aren't the brightest, but they're soldiers. If their bullets weren't doing anything do you really think they'd just keep shooting it? They're not scientifically bright, but they're not stupid either. Would you just keep shooting something's shell when it reared up and presented such an obvious target?

They have mining equipment? Other than those well-drilling rigs that go straight down and would be absolutely useless for this application? No, they don't. And if Vor was there when they fought it, he has a giant @(*()$ laser. If he can't hurt it what on Phobos makes you thing the Grineer can just bring in something to drill through as if it were done every day? They have nothing in place that can be repurposed for that task, and there is just no way in heck that they would casually bring in the heavy equipment that would be necessary for your description.

Ignoring that problem, here's another one: they don't know anything about the Skates. They don't know Phobos. You really think, assuming they got through the shell, that they can just casually go in and install something in unfamiliar biology--particularly something as complex as the brain--and take control of it? Maybe the Corpus could analyze something that fast, but that's what they do. Not the Grineer.

 

The same problem arises for the machine gun. Unless it's tiny it needs significant structural reinforcement. Presumably the spines for the tail-gun are grown and stored somewhere within the creature and therefore need to be passed to it somehow. A muscular passage like our esophagi makes the most sense, and any real reinforcement to the tail would likely interfere with that, like idiotically placed piercing can in people. You could get around that problem, sure, but the Grineer aren't engineers and aren't the kind of people that would be able to casually do that, either. So again, you're turning the Grineer into the Corpus. Uh-unh. Nope. Doesn't work.

 

There are very easily made explanations for all of your questions.  Anything else?  I believe since you entered this thread I've countered every argument you've made with in game content or lore, as well as presented information for any disputes about concepts outside the idea itself.  If I'm mistaken and missed something, please let me know - I'm not above admitting when there's no good explanation to be had.  Please don't feel too embarassed to return :) I revel in people helping flesh out ideas.

Easily made, and highly flawed. I need nothing else. You haven't countered a single idea, you've brought up completely irrelevant things like the Jackal in the Grineer lab. You've uttered complete inaccuracies, implying that because the brain is the center of the nervous system anything that works with nerves must therefore work on it. Believe what you will, because the facts scream the opposite.

 

I'll be surprised if you actually admit to error, because everything you've done thus far has given me the impression that you're an errorgant prick (I was not wondering about anything, and your consistent and misplaced condescension is both rude and infuriating). I'm not embarassed to return and point out that the few relevant points to be had are completely inaccurate. Nor will I apologize for insulting you this way, because when I was reasonable and calm you dismissed me as irrelevant.

[RevenantBacon]

A suggestion on the "Queen Sandskate" Instead of having those flamethrowers attached to her wings, why not have twin Gremlins equipped? And instead of a minigun on it's tail, why not a Miter? Would fit with the existing drops and require less work to code/build in. Instead of bladed wings, since the wings on a sandskate aren't that maneuverable, it should try jumping attacks to crush the tenno. Also, the methods of killing it are WAY to complex. I mean, you need to get the Sandskate to hit ITSELF? 3 TIMES? Not gonna happen, especially with Vor harassing you. I suggest that it instead, just be killable by either A) Shooting the weak points(underbelly, controll neurode clusters, ect.) or B) busting the control chamber and finishing off the person controlling it(I think it shouldn't be Vor, because you DO kill him on Mercury, and it seems like he's a place holder for another boss anyways.) Instead, they should introduce some new boss who initiated the project instead, and was the "creator" of the Sand Queen.

[Hypevosa]

No I am not blind, but anyone can edit the wiki and that was not included last I looked (sides, it actually reinforces Vangaurd and I's argument that it really isn't in their bubble). Maybe you added it yourself, maybe not. You'd just deny it anyway. Also, wtf are you linking me to the Neurode page for? That was the one quote I recognized as legit, it is your interpretation of it that is incorrect. Neither that page--nor anything in game--has anything to support your theory. With the neurodes, they could link up the weapons to a skates nervous system--they cannot control brains! That's not what the things are for. Brains are considerably more complex than nerves, and splicing or reading and transmitting a duplicate signal from nerves is in theory quite simple. You're suggesting a device designed to link their prostheses into their nervous system can in fact be just plugged into somethings brain and not only read synaptic signals at the same rate the brain produces them, but incite specific ones based on what the Grineer want. Doesn't work that way... More, I've seen the Jackal myself. I know it exists and I know what you're talking about. It is again your interpretation thereof and statements regarding it I dispute. I agreed they were interested in robotic proxies in principle, you brought up the Jackal completely out of context. You really need to learn how to read. You're basically arguing against yourself for all the accuracy you've shown.

 

Alright, blind was the wrong term.  Inept - instead of bothering to research something you were certain was made up for yourself, you claim it was made up instead.  The quote about the grineer is directly from the lore tab that comes up when you click your name on the solar system screen.  It is in the very game itself.  The description of neurodes is (or was, I cannot find it myself at the moment, maybe it was a readable that popped up during alerts with neruodes if you hovered over them in the mission screen?) in the very game itself.  I linked you that page because it illustrates a technological capacity you're arguing is corpus.  Corpus may design robots but it is the grineer that are the biotech experts in both genetics and augmentations.

You also lack the understanding of biology I do, or the imagination if you cannot clearly see that if one can implant something in the brain to let it control a mechanical leg or arm, one could easily implant something in someone else's brain that would let you do the same if you instead allowed the neurode to be controlled remotely.  They already have every piece of technology mentioned, and it wouldn't be the idea of the century for them to combine any of it together either.  "Cannot control a brain!" is just you hanging onto some fairytale you have in your own head.  If I severed an axon of yours and connected it to something else that could simulate a discharge, I could control whatever that neuron is responsible for.  Be it your heart beating, your hormones releasing, or your arm waving.

 

It is far more than two technological steps. As I noted above, you're an idiot if you think the nerve-splicing they do is directly translatable to real-time manipulation of the brain. The control interface from reading a Grineer's mind is the only viable part of it.

Also, read the bloody lore about the regulators. Captain Vor brought them along to "bring their messages of encouragement to rile up the troops." Arid Fear Operation under the in-game lore, since you're too stupid to have found that yourself. The effect is entirely psychological, nothing to do with any of the stuff you say. So yes, it is indeed too far of a leap.

 

Given the grineer's current abilities and technology, this isn't even a step, it's jogging in place.  They have the technology, and the malevolence to repurpose it.  Again, you lack the imagination if you cannot fathom that I don't have to control thoughts to control a creature's actions.

 

I did not read the regulator's page, you caught me.  It's nice to know you can read though I wish you'd think more.
 

Grineer aren't the brightest, but they're soldiers. If their bullets weren't doing anything do you really think they'd just keep shooting it? They're not scientifically bright, but they're not stupid either. Would you just keep shooting something's shell when it reared up and presented such an obvious target?

They have mining equipment? Other than those well-drilling rigs that go straight down and would be absolutely useless for this application? No, they don't. And if Vor was there when they fought it, he has a giant @(*()$ laser. If he can't hurt it what on Phobos makes you thing the Grineer can just bring in something to drill through as if it were done every day? They have nothing in place that can be repurposed for that task, and there is just no way in heck that they would casually bring in the heavy equipment that would be necessary for your description.

Ignoring that problem, here's another one: they don't know anything about the Skates. They don't know Phobos. You really think, assuming they got through the shell, that they can just casually go in and install something in unfamiliar biology--particularly something as complex as the brain--and take control of it? Maybe the Corpus could analyze something that fast, but that's what they do. Not the Grineer.

 

The same problem arises for the machine gun. Unless it's tiny it needs significant structural reinforcement. Presumably the spines for the tail-gun are grown and stored somewhere within the creature and therefore need to be passed to it somehow. A muscular passage like our esophagi makes the most sense, and any real reinforcement to the tail would likely interfere with that, like idiotically placed piercing can in people. You could get around that problem, sure, but the Grineer aren't engineers and aren't the kind of people that would be able to casually do that, either. So again, you're turning the Grineer into the Corpus. Uh-unh. Nope. Doesn't work.

Who said the creature rears up?  Who said that its soft underbelly wasn't still hard enough to resist some damage?

Who said they cannot have smaller mining equipment for things like boring holes and whatnot for setting up the larger mining equipment that needs to be installed?  Who said Vor was there that day and not at the courts with the Sisters, or trying to kill tenno that afternoon as he is often wont to do?

What makes you think they know nothing of the skates?  They magically appeared?  Or did the massive mining operation set up in a single day?  What makes you think the grineer wouldn't be doing experiments on them like they are with the jackal? (or is the jackal just a decoration for them?  It could be, trophies seem in the grineer mindset).

Thoughts are complex.  Feelings are complex.  The brain itself as a whole may be complex, but that is not what the grineer would need to focus on here.  This/these neuron(s) firing causes this muscle or muscle group to contract is all they need to think about, and that's something they already mastered on their own.  If we can already attach nerves to artificial limbs to make them move, what makes you think the grineer, who are actually ahead of us in the biotech sector, could not do so, and then have the firing of that neuron be controlled from elsewhere?

Your body is not magic, as you may want to believe.

 

Easily made, and highly flawed. I need nothing else. You haven't countered a single idea, you've brought up completely irrelevant things like the Jackal in the Grineer lab. You've uttered complete inaccuracies, implying that because the brain is the center of the nervous system anything that works with nerves must therefore work on it. Believe what you will, because the facts scream the opposite.

 

I'll be surprised if you actually admit to error, because everything you've done thus far has given me the impression that you're an errorgant prick (I was not wondering about anything, and your consistent and misplaced condescension is both rude and infuriating). I'm not embarassed to return and point out that the few relevant points to be had are completely inaccurate. Nor will I apologize for insulting you this way, because when I was reasonable and calm you dismissed me as irrelevant.

Again, point to me what I haven't countered.  I've proven they have the technology, I've pointed to evidence to suggest the possibility of interest, and I have given evidence as to how this fits with them.  The brain is a large cluster of nerves, anything that mucks with nerves could be used in conjunction with it to muck with whatever you wanted.  It would be accurate to say that controlling thoughts would be hard since there's too much to try and control, but making a few muscle groups contract or relax is, again, something the grineer have already demonstrated they can do with their own augmentations.

Ironically, I've admitted an error in this post (not reading the regulator page, silly me).  Arrogant, is how it's spelled (though errorgant is a fascinating misspelling!  It sounds like someone who is arrogant that constantly spits out inaccuracies... oh that's juicy in light of context, was that a clever attempt to insult me?  ingenious if it was on purpose).  Confidence and arrogance are different though only those who have real confidence can see the difference.

I don't really feel insulted at all, sorry to disappoint. :)  I wouldn't accept an apology when no harm has been done.

[Hypevosa]

Ok what you are suggesting is the grineer invade the technology space of the corpus the grineer are about self augmented clone armys where as the corpus would be the ones to do one of the most useless things of modifying a native animal they can not weaponize in other areas first of all would the grineer really waste time if they spent 3 days trying to kill it to ATTEMPT to modify something they couldnt even hurt in the first place if they could not hurt with there plasma swords sawmen rockets heavy machine guns and every other kinetic based weaponry why do you think they could even cut into its flesh to place implants or augments hell if they had the ability to freely create mental links like this why dont they do like the corpus and make pet giant robots they do not because A: they have no idea how to create complicated machinery B: they have no idea how to build anything everything is mass produced from their augments to the ships they ride the grineer arent so smart as to make stuff on the go like the corpus they basically run around and get handed toys by their queens or purchase it from markets like the corpus in short the grineer are as much as idiots as two year olds anyways back to my point even though these are all in the future the grineer are about as technologically advanced as the infested minus the intelligence that the infested bosses have

 

Bioengineering and genetics are the tech of the grineer.  Robotics and energy weapons are the tech of the corpus.  The corpus wouldn't bother with animal modification, they can make better things by themselves.  The Grineer might be interested in using animals since they cannot master the technology of the corpus to make proxies.

The lack of periods is making it hard to read, I'll do my best to address your concerns.

They spent 3 days trying to kill it because they're xenophobic maniacs with no regards for the sanctity of life that isn't grineer.  It was only when vor saw the potential it had as a weapon that they didn't just find a way to murder it when it stopped defending itself.

The grineer do not have plasma weapons, they lack energy weapon tech as described in the sabotage missions.  I believe the cleavers and the like are simply super heated metal edges, hence the orange glow, rather than the plasma weapons we are familiar with using blue or green bolts like the seer or the corpus weapons.

The grineer cut into it to weaponize it, and to implant the neurodes, this is not some magical mind control.

I didn't say the grineer were making robots or that kind of technology, but they are integrating their biotech with the creature.

 

A suggestion on the "Queen Sandskate" Instead of having those flamethrowers attached to her wings, why not have twin Gremlins equipped? And instead of a minigun on it's tail, why not a Miter? Would fit with the existing drops and require less work to code/build in. Instead of bladed wings, since the wings on a sandskate aren't that maneuverable, it should try jumping attacks to crush the tenno. Also, the methods of killing it are WAY to complex. I mean, you need to get the Sandskate to hit ITSELF? 3 TIMES? Not gonna happen, especially with Vor harassing you. I suggest that it instead, just be killable by either A) Shooting the weak points(underbelly, controll neurode clusters, ect.) or B) busting the control chamber and finishing off the person controlling it(I think it shouldn't be Vor, because you DO kill him on Mercury, and it seems like he's a place holder for another boss anyways.) Instead, they should introduce some new boss who initiated the project instead, and was the "creator" of the Sand Queen.

 

Honestly, the flamethrowers and minigun fit the idea in my head better, and I felt like a new boss should have new and more interesting weapon drops.  However, if we're trying to save space or something, the tail could easily be made something that shoots miters instead, I would be very sad if the flamethrower wings were gotten rid of though.

I'm not sure a creature this large could really jump under its own weight, they are however able to spin in place very quickly hence the idea of the blades being effective.

The methods of killing it are meant to make the boss battle be more interesting than just shooting stuff.  The idea is to incorporate agility and parkour into the fight a bit, hence the luring of the skate to hit key structures on its surface.

A new boss instead of vor could work, but I like vor's menacing and annoying combat behaviors as they would supplement as a great distraction for the desert striker to kill you while you were busy with vor and vice versa.  The reason the lech krill fight doesn't worth the same way is because the nature of the arena allows you to quickly separate vor from krill, that is why this arena is far more simple.

[Siubijeni]

Who said the creature rears up?  Who said that its soft underbelly wasn't still hard enough to resist some damage?

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You use the normal skates as justification for things, and when I make a comment based on the normal skates and the stupidity you attribute to the Grineer in combatting them, the little ones don't exist for any of your considerations.

 

I'm done. I give up. You can't keep an argument straight to save your life, and when you misinterpret half of what I say, counter it with unrelated statements and examples, and think you're such a @(*()$ genius... my level of done-ness is too damn high. You're not worth my time.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Siubijeni

[Hypevosa]

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You use the normal skates as justification for things, and when I make a comment based on the normal skates and the stupidity you attribute to the Grineer in combatting them, the little ones don't exist for any of your considerations.

 

I'm done. I give up. You can't keep an argument straight to save your life, and when you misinterpret half of what I say, counter it with unrelated statements and examples, and think you're such a @(*()$ genius... my level of done-ness is too damn high. You're not worth my time.

I stated its outer shell couldn't be harmed by bullets (read: harder than normal skate shells), and that it was 15-20 times its normal size.  The former would serve as justification for the underside may show a bit more toughness than that of the smaller desert skates, while the latter is justification for why the thing may not be as prone to rearing up as its smaller bretheren.

I only used normal skates to justify a basic shape.  Like queen ants and drones, queen bees and drones, female angler fish and male angler fish, and hundreds of other examples in nature where the female may share most genetics but also have sometimes vastly different physiology and structure, I was implying that this creature was not exactly the same as the desert skates we've already seen.  I view the normal desert skates as the little worker bees running out to defend the nest, forage the food for the colony, and other functions better served by large coordinated groups.

For your reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee