I love Jade so much, but she really needs a buff

[Shinoyami65]

18 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

You're saying that Jades Health Restoration (which is a regen over time, only activated by walking into the AOE) is more valuable than recharging everyones shields, over time, within affinity range.
Both are regens over time.
Shield restoration provides faster shield regeneration and shorter Regen delay, resulting in allowing all teammates to shieldgate much more easily. You're really saying her health regen is better? Huh?

You even contradict this later by saying that players mostly start relying on gating at higher levels, which is exactly what Jades shield restoration assists in doing.

A bit faster =/= 44% of your max shields restored a second. That's more than any other frame bar Hildryn can boast, and yes, you're right, shields don't recharge if you take damage.... just move around for 0.2 seconds and you'll recharge shields, it's really not hard.
Hildryn being the only other frame that can contend with this, doesn't apply it to herself, and doesn't provide shield recharge delay either. Jade does.

Energy Restoration is not irrelevant
Shield restoration is not irrelevant
Status Immunity is not irrelevant
Ability and weapon buffing is not irrelevant

Like, I don't understand what you're trying to argue here honestly. Yes, there are self supporting tools. That doesn't immediately stop support frames or abilities with these effects being irrelevant, especially in organised groups.

The only part I agree with is Overguard making Status cleansing, Shield and Health restoration irrelevant. There's a reason I said it is broken and boring.

Frames like Oberon, has an aged and buggy kit. His support is also all about health and armour, with a little status cleansing. The health and armour is indeed, irellevant cause of gating, which is due to powercreep. Even his armour strip doesn't work half the time.

DE stated Jade was going to be a support buff/debuff, not just a debuff frame. She infact, does only 3 debuffs. 50% damage vulnerablity (not modifiable), a stacking slow effect (not modifiable) and an armour strip (modifiable).
Her buffs, she has:
Health Regen
Shield Regen
Strength Buff
Weapon Buff

She has more Buff than Debuff, but it's all geared towards DPS.

 

It just feels contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

I never said her health restoration was more valuable than her shield restoration. But the shield restoration she provides is no better, and in many respects worse, than what other supports can provide. And as I explained, it doesn't help gating much compared to other shield-restoring frames. Gating requires instant shield restoration. Jade does not provide that. Also not sure where you're pulling the 44% figure from since her shield regen boost is only 10% per second (increased by ability strength), unless you're suggesting that 440% ability strength is mandatory to get the most out of her abilities. For that matter, I'm unsure why you're classing health regen and shield regen under DPS buffs.

Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw someone asking specifically for an EV Trinity for a squad? She used to be highly desired, if not mandatory in most mission types because she was the most efficient way to get limitless energy and teamwide heals/cleanse. Now she isn't because people can get energy, cleansing and healing in several different ways without bringing a specific frame to fill that role.

You seem to be completely misreading my point which is that any current support in WF provides a mixture of DPS and support. Wisp, Citrine and Protea all provide potent offense on top of defence/sustain. A frame which only provides support currently doesn't provide anything that you can't obtain with the tools available.

Edited June 25 by Shinoyami65

[Stormandreas]

5 minutes ago, Shinoyami65 said:

I never said her health restoration was more valuable than her shield restoration. But the shield restoration she provides is no better, and in many respects worse, than what other supports can provide. And as I explained, it doesn't help gating much compared to other shield-restoring frames. Gating requires instant shield restoration. Jade does not provide that. Also not sure where you're pulling the 44% figure from since her shield regen boost is only 10% per second (increased by ability strength), unless you're suggesting that 440% ability strength is mandatory to get the most out of her abilities.  

Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw someone asking specifically for an EV Trinity for a squad? She used to be highly desired, if not mandatory in most mission types because she was the most efficient way to get limitless energy and teamwide heals/cleanse. Now she isn't because people can get energy, cleansing and healing in several different ways without bringing a specific frame to fill that role.

You seem to be completely misreading my point which is that any current support in WF provides a mixture of DPS and support. Wisp, Citrine and Protea all provide potent offense on top of defence/sustain. A frame which only provides support currently doesn't provide anything that you can't obtain with the tools available.

 

36 minutes ago, Shinoyami65 said:

Shield Restoration isn't more valuable than health restoration in Jade's case because what she technically provides is faster shield recharge rate and a bit of overshields...

"Isn't more valuable" can very very easily be read as "Health restoration is more valuable". Shield restoration, by the very nature of shields, is more valuable than health restoration, especially if they are equal in strength, let alone the health regen being weaker (Jades health restoration is 8% per second, shield is 10% at base values)

Gating doesn't require instant shield restoration, it requires extremely fast shield restoration. This is something Jade absolutely does provide.
This is because they changed shield gating not long ago, so the gate timer changes based on the amount of shields you have at the time of break (with a generous enough grace period incase there's 2 or 3 instances of damage that break the shield together, very quickly)

Where I'm pulling 44%? Maybe my build that I already explained earlier. It's not hard to reach 443% strength on Jade and have an insanely effective build. Yes, the base value is 10%, because it's meant to be modded.

An EV Trin? About 2-3 Weeks ago for EDA.

 

 

Edited June 25 by Stormandreas

[Shinoyami65]

17 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Gating doesn't require instant shield restoration, it requires extremely fast shield restoration. This is something Jade absolutely does provide.
This is because they changed shield gating not long ago, so the gate timer changes based on the amount of shields you have at the time of break (with a generous enough grace period incase there's 2 or 3 instances of damage that break the shield together, very quickly)

Where I'm pulling 44%? Maybe my build that I already explained earlier. It's not hard to reach 443% strength on Jade and have an insanely effective build. Yes, the base value is 10%, because it's meant to be modded.

An EV Trin? About 2-3 Weeks ago for EDA.

 

 

Shield generation is not more valuable = / = health restoration is more valuable. IMO they're equally bad in her case. Instant is still faster 'extremely fast' in all scenarios...that's why it's 'instant'.

I remember the days when you'd see Trinity requests every few minutes in recruiting chat for endless missions, Orokin Derelicts and Eidolon hunting. Maybe seeing 1 once per fortnight is just sad TBH. IMO people are overestimating 'pure support frames' as some rare treasure that will reinvigorate the game as if they wouldn't just level a new 'pure support' for MR and then throw them in the trash/Helminth, because pure;y supportive gameplay isn't particularly fun, rewarding or invigorating in the current state of Warframe.

Edited June 25 by Shinoyami65

[Evycina]

On 2024-06-25 at 7:24 AM, Stormandreas said:

Granted, you don't HAVE to subsume on her, she can work perfectly fine in a support role without a subsume, however, the issue people are having is they are desperately trying to get the Alt Fire working on Glory.

That's the mistake.

Jade has 200 base energy at max. That's lower than EXCALIBUR! On a frame you'd think you'd want energy, she has a low pool. This is because, she's not MEANT to be spamming that Alt Fire.

As for DPS, she absolutely out kills a Wisp. Wisps biggest trick is Breach Surge and Motes.
All frames can use Breach Surge
The motes are the support element. Wisp gets called the best support in the game, because she's the only frame that, despite being designed as a "Caster, dps frame with support elements" is able to provide any sort of meaningful support without really trying.
That said, the support really is mostly just Haste. The healing doesn't mean much if enemies are doing a ton of damage to frames with no armour, and means especially nothign when you get to level 2k+.

Jades biggest support is in the 50% Damage Vulnerability at pretty high, autonomous ranges, Strength buffing, and shield restoration.
Shield Restoration > Health Restoration btw, because shield gating exists.
She also doesn't have to think about it at all. Just, turn it on, use your 1 or 4, kill enemies. That's it.
Wisp at least has to consider where to place motes (not much effort granted)
Dante is another good example too. He has 3 abilities that provide INSANE support, but is used as a Nuke frame because his nuking ability is unparalleled. Not only that, his supporting elements is creating OVERGUARD!
Overguard being extremely broken, with Gating, Status Immunity, Massive healthpools and providing higher EHP, and doing this almost autonomously as well.

The BIGGEST mistake DE make when considering support frames, is that they fail to realise that throwing extremely high damage, high fire rate, armour stripping damage vulnerability aspects onto frames, is NOT support, that's DPS (this is agreeing with you basically).
They don't realise that when the players think support, we think:
- Healing
- Shield restoring
- Overguard generation (please stop with this though, it's so broken and boring)
- Status cleansing and immunity (Not through overguard)
- ENERGY RESTORATION (We currently have six.... SIX Frames that generates energy for the team innately without any outside influence. Trinity, Limbo, Protea, Octavia, Styanax and Citrine. These six frames can make energy directly, or energy orbs innately via their abilties, not including augments or RNG like what Nekros Desecrate would rely on)
- Weapon/Ability buffing
- Speed buffing
- Providing Protection like Volt Shield or Frost Snowglobe

There's SO much they can do in the Support Category, but don't. At least Jade has the unique effect of being able to remotely revive people... oh wait... Nekros has that augment...

 

TL;DR:
I DO agree with you, she needs to be changed over to being a support based frame vs a DPS frame with Support elements, that's what I was originally thinking she would be, but DE decided to go down a DPS route for some reason and skipped all the potential an Angel Frame could of provided as a support.

You make such good points, honestly. I have to admit, I'm not as deep into endgame (and therefore nowhere near as knowledgeable) as every one else here. I mean, I didn't even entirely know about shield gating being a genuine survivability option until recently. I actually came back for Jade because (and maybe I misunderstood it, I don't wanna act like I know what DE is thinking or anything) I was under the impression she was being marketed as a support. Like an actual support. Seeing the multiple sustain options and buffs reminded me of Wisp, who's my main, and my problem with Wisp was always that she really only had 1 pure support ability in the form of the motes. I love them, but I wanted something more active and varied. Plus, I loved the musical and angelic themes. I figured, I mean, an angel's gotta be the one they give a genuinely awesome support kit to, right? And I guess on paper they did, but this is Warframe so it's more compmicated.

But you're right, and so are others, that there always seems to be a damage focus even with supports here. And I mean, I get it - I'm sure they don't want more frames ending up benched the way older frames focused on support have been. And I know most people prefer damage. But still, I mean, it's honestly kinda sad to me? There's been talk in this thread of how you can do support while still making the frame able to do damage. Other games, I've seen all kinds of implementations of this - buff or debuff heavy classes that increase their personal damage or healing based on how much buffing or healing they do, for example. 

I'm not saying DE should totally rework her and dump her damage. That'd make so many people so sad. But there's gotta be a way to give her both, so that support players can play how they want while damage players and others can do the same. 

Still, I super appreciate your responses. They kinda gave me a hope that, if I can get my power strength high enough, the shield regen will be enough. Plus, you make a good point that she does at least bring a few more actual buffs and debuffs than Wisp does with just her Haste and healing.

Edited Wednesday at 08:26 PM by Evycina

[Evycina]

On 2024-06-25 at 8:36 AM, Shinoyami65 said:

Shield generation is not more valuable = / = health restoration is more valuable. IMO they're equally bad in her case. Instant is still faster 'extremely fast' in all scenarios...that's why it's 'instant'.

I remember the days when you'd see Trinity requests every few minutes in recruiting chat for endless missions, Orokin Derelicts and Eidolon hunting. Maybe seeing 1 once per fortnight is just sad TBH. IMO people are overestimating 'pure support frames' as some rare treasure that will reinvigorate the game as if they wouldn't just level a new 'pure support' for MR and then throw them in the trash/Helminth, because pure;y supportive gameplay isn't particularly fun, rewarding or invigorating in the current state of Warframe.

I guess the thing is, a pure support frame would reinvigorate the game for me. It's just something I want, since it's my playstyle. Like I mentioned elsewhere, I came back for Jade because of that. It might not be ideal, and you're right I do find it a bit odd how easily achievable sustain and buffs are but I also get that DE probably did that so people didn't feel forced to bring a support. 

I guess that's a hard line to walk. If you make the hardest content achievable solo, then support becomes a whole lot less necessary. But if you don't make the hardest content achievable solo, then you alienate the solo crowd. I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on games or anything, but yeah. Also I will say, not all of us would throw that theoretical frame in the trash. I genuinely don't enjoy DPS, never really have. Still, I get your point - I mean all you have to do is go into a dungeon queue as a DPS in any MMO, and then do the same as a healer, to quickly see how vast the difference in player numbers is between the two roles. So I understand it, but it doesn't mean I like it. And I do wish they could support both playstyles, with pure options for both rather than pure options for dps and mostly-dps-kinda-support options for support.