An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[harly]

I'm also rank 14. On your first point about mastery, I really don't see why you care about it. So they released some achievements that are too high and unobtainable? Ok. But so what? IF they made it 20, or 50, what actual difference does it make? I think you're attaching way too much importance to an arbitrary number thrown out in an achievement system.  There are so many places warframe could use attention for end-game people... you've placed mastery as your #1 and I just don't see why it even matters at all?

 

I also wish these open letters would stop claiming to speak on behalf of everyone. If it's your personal thoughts, then say "My open letter" not "from your veterans". If it's 3 of your, or 5 of your, then say "5 of your veterans". You are mistaken to believe you speak for everyone with your personal priorities.

Edited January 12, 2014 by harly

[Venzire]

I'll post here too...

 

What DE needs to do is read all of these open letters and all the tid bits of GOOD and VALUABLE feedback, list it all, yes every bit. Then have a Livestream and an AMA/Q&A in a forum environment where they can discuss and solute these problems bit by bit.

 

I have a few ideas for how we can have this AMA/Q&A, but I'll refine them before I post, I'll PM any other Vet players if they would like to have a read over.

 

I'm a Vet, started very early Closed Beta. I've seen the game grow immensely since the start to now, 2014. It's going through a rough patch, DE needs to listen to their community veterans and any other players with their head screwed on right... 

 

All in all, lets hope they read these open letters, all the good and valuable feedback and this thread especially. If DE listens to the Veterans, the ones with the most experience of Warframe then they'll most likely get the most open and valuabe feedback to improve and fix the current problems and the game as a whole.

 

+1 for OP and all the Vets that helped with these informative letters. Keep it going till we're being admittedly and openly listened to.

[Brahmastra]

This is probably my biggest concern. I am max level in Warframe at the moment. However, we did some research and found Mastery 15 is only 25% of the way to Mastery 30

O GOD IT NEVER ENDS.. 1500 HOURS TO GO

 

 

Once again, nice post.

[Demon-King-Lamb]

If Warframe had the story of Halo, it would be an Epic! Journey through the galaxy. But it's in a rut. Stuck in it's own shell trying to get out. The way how the RNG is set up. It will choke on it's own shell. leaving it lifeless and no one wanting to it.

Personally I don't want an end to a good game that can expand for years to come. Surely there is more to the universe than with just one solar system to explore. The Grineer, Corpus and most certainly the Infested have expanded farther than we may truely know. Give the game some life. A story to tell for each Tenno to spread. A reason to continue it's legacy.

I like Warframe, But I also have some ideas on a game that will have no end. A continuous journey. What will be at the farthest reach of our universe. Or even what is out there for us to explore? My desire to create this game, is the desire to explore the farthest reaches of space itself. And that isn't even part of the iceberg. Just part of the floating specs of ice that will build it.

[Inquisitioner]

I also wish these open letters would stop claiming to speak on behalf of everyone. If it's your personal thoughts, then say "My open letter" not "from your veterans". If it's 3 of your, or 5 of your, then say "5 of your veterans". You are mistaken to believe you speak for everyone with your personal priorities.

I fully agree. If you want to send them a letter do it. No need to do an open one, especially if it's just feedback and nothing controversial. Bit more important, unless you have loads of co-writers, do not go presuming your thoughts are identical to all those who know the game better than you!

These open letters are really getting tiresome, they were in a decline but now we're back at it again... Pretty sure staff would pay more attention to it if done in a respectable manner, assuming it makes sense. Feel like the goal with these is to get attention rather than actually improving the game!

[Guest Shibboleet]

Mastery 30 acts like a cushion so that they do not need to make more as players hit that rank.

[--collstro--]

Sorry to re-post something I said a few pages back, but it's pretty well buried in this thread and no one is expected to read every post in a thread that is now 11 pages long.

 

Live Stream 20 did nothing to address the issues outlined in this thread. Even the simplest and quickest issue to resolve or improve, (Harvester Spawn/Drop rates,) was mostly glossed over. Below is what I said in a previous post, which is why this thread continues and why there will be many more letters from other veterans in the future. Each with their own distinct opinions, suggestions and observations for DE to address. Hopefully the moderators will allow those letters to stand on their own, as each has their unique perspective, even though some subjects may overlap at times. If that was the threshold for merging threads, then there really should only be 1 thread on the forum since every thread here overlaps in at least 1 way. They're all about a game called WarFrame.

 

 

 

"After watching the stream, I have to say I'm rather disappointed with the responses. Since it seems to be an issue that has as close to a consensus that any subject can have in a group as large and diverse as our player base, I'll just focus on what was said on the live stream about that for a moment.

 

 

Harvester

 

As Steve said, "I gotta be honest with that. We cluster F'd the Harvester so bad on the probabilities and the, like how it all works; that I don't know, I feel that we owe them an explanation on it. The problem is; the secrecy we think is interesting, but it has that same kinda; that double edged sword that Scott was talking about. Where people want that stuff as soon as they figure out there's something interesting there, and it's keyed off of a secret, then they get irate, and then we totally sucked a$$, and the probabilities were wrong, and it was like broken, then we fixed it and it still wasn't good enough....."

 

Followed by Scott later saying, " So the Harvester seeks you if you're pro Grineer and continue to be pro Grineer. That's the hint we'll give today."

 

 

If they acknowledge they 'F'd up' Harvester as Steve put it, and that the secrecy makes the player base 'irate,' then why continue with the secrecy? This gave them the perfect opportunity after they admitted to failing with the Harvester and it's drop rates to show their community that they listen, and give us some real information for a change. Like exactly what needs to be done to proc it, what exactly is the spawn rate after being proc'd, what exactly are the drop rates for the components after it spawns. They acknowledge that secrecy made and makes, the player base irate, so what to do they do? Follow up with more secrecy. This was a perfect opportunity to address one of the major concerns of the player base and give us real information in the patch notes since they acknowledge they completely 'F'd it up.'

 

Sadly they did not do so, they followed the acknowledgment (apology?) with a slightly less cryptic 'hint,' but absolutely no real information. This does not sit well with me, or cause me to be optimistic for the ways they intend to address our other concerns, if they choose to address them at all."

 

 

Thanks again for your time,

collstro

[(PSN)Xuiryus]

I really think you're asking for too much, too soon. Just because you claim to be a veteran doesn't mean you speak for a majority. DE have been great in their communication with the fans and players and they are steadily adding updates, not to mention bringing PS4 into the mix and with rumours of the Xbone on the horizon they have a lot going on. They have a plan and hinted at it during LS#20, you can't just ask for a bundle of new stuff all at once, it's a gradual process of updating and testing and then tweaking that update until it's good to go until the next update comes out which completely unbalances the last update and so on.

 

Try to have some patience and understand the game isn't catered just towards a small group of players who have spent their time mastering the entire game, maybe it would be best if you take a break for awhile and come back to the game after it's had a few more updates instead of constantly hounding the developers for new content. 

 

The bottom line is, you're not saying anything that DE don't already know themselves.

[--collstro--]

I'm also rank 14. On your first point about mastery, I really don't see why you care about it. So they released some achievements that are too high and unobtainable? Ok. But so what? IF they made it 20, or 50, what actual difference does it make? I think you're attaching way too much importance to an arbitrary number thrown out in an achievement system.  There are so many places warframe could use attention for end-game people... you've placed mastery as your #1 and I just don't see why it even matters at all?

 

I also wish these open letters would stop claiming to speak on behalf of everyone. If it's your personal thoughts, then say "My open letter" not "from your veterans". If it's 3 of your, or 5 of your, then say "5 of your veterans". You are mistaken to believe you speak for everyone with your personal priorities.

 

 

I fully agree. If you want to send them a letter do it. No need to do an open one, especially if it's just feedback and nothing controversial. Bit more important, unless you have loads of co-writers, do not go presuming your thoughts are identical to all those who know the game better than you!

These open letters are really getting tiresome, they were in a decline but now we're back at it again... Pretty sure staff would pay more attention to it if done in a respectable manner, assuming it makes sense. Feel like the goal with these is to get attention rather than actually improving the game!

 

We never said we speak for everyone,  but until we receive a real response from DE the letters will continue from veterans who represent the leadership of many; if not eventually all prominent clans from all tiers, and leader board veterans. As a veteran you may not agree with all the points we make; even I don't fully agree with every point in each existing or upcoming letter. But, since none of the issues have been addressed other than in passing or with the now meme worthy "Soon™" we feel this our best, and sadly last thing we can do to express our concerns to DE before we all leave the game.

 

All of us to the last love(d) the game, which is why we've played it so long, but over the course of a year none our concerns have been addressed and in fact, many of the issues we're concerned about have gotten worse, (i.e. level of grind, communication, events, etc.)

 

To the members I quoted. While I respect your opinions, as I respect all, non-trolling or reflexively contrarian opinions; you haven't put in enough time in this game to be considered veterans. Not trying to insult either of you, it's just a fact after seeing the number of hours you have both put into the game. So none of our letters were ever intended to speak on your behalf, but thanks for your input.

Edited January 12, 2014 by --collstro--

[Silvershadow66]

"limited resources"

 

 

Every developer has limited resources. I have worked in both the IT industry and the Games industry for decades and no company ever has enough to do everything it might want to do all at once.

 

DE are not in the red. If they were in the red, they would be making lay offs. If they are breaking even or making a profit, then they would allow more jobs.

 

Ok, so we now know that you have no idea on how development works. Of course they can be in the red overall at the moment (I doubt they are to any dangerous level), a developer invests in a new product with the expectation that it will recover the initial investment over time. The break even point could be in 6 months or a year, only DE will know exactly when. That investment is the very reason that publishers get involved in the process, to provide investment capital.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Silvershadow66

[--collstro--]

Mastery 30 acts like a cushion so that they do not need to make more as players hit that rank.

 

I see the mention that achieving Mastery 30 being 3-4+ years away given the current rate at which DE releases items to level is more an example of careless, poorly thought out, and rushed game design than anything else. Along the lines of them saying, "Well, the max rank for weapons and frames is 30, so let's set maximum Mastery at 30." They seemed to make the decision and implement it into the game before even doing the simple math that would cause the realization that at the way mastery currently escalates over 4 times the number of weapons, sentinels and frames that are presently in the game will need to be released before anyone can achieve the maximum Mastery Rank.

 

I hope this was an oversight stemming from rushed game design, which ended up in a rather sloppy mess, like so many other things that have been added or changed in this game. I sincerely hope it was not carefully considered before being released since I see no possible reason that someone with over 2000 hours in game, should be less than 25% of the way to the maximum rank.

 

I agree, this would be a much more urgent issue if Mastery Rank meant something, (anything,) more than being able to access weapons, have more trades per day, and being able to deploy more Extractors.

Edited January 12, 2014 by --collstro--

[Zaresin]

About your lore and end game rants.

If they implement these now....in six months we will be right back at this argument and the game is not officially released yet....quit your whining till it is actually in full released mode...then you can have these little whine fests.....every game has this complaint "you aren't putting out end game stuff fast enough" or "I've done everything in this game now what do I do". You want a medal?

[harly]

We never said we speak for everyone,  but until we receive a real response from DE the letters will continue from veterans who represent the leadership of many

 

Again. Enough of the chest beating.  If you are 2, or 3, or 4, then just name yourselves.

 

You look like a fool pretending to speak for everyone. And that is exactly what you are doing by using terms like "a letter from your veterans" instead of "a letter from me and my buddy paul".

 

So who is this group of people whose behalf you are speaking on? Give us the names.

[--collstro--]

I really think you're asking for too much, too soon. Just because you claim to be a veteran doesn't mean you speak for a majority. DE have been great in their communication with the fans and players and they are steadily adding updates, not to mention bringing PS4 into the mix and with rumours of the Xbone on the horizon they have a lot going on. They have a plan and hinted at it during LS#20, you can't just ask for a bundle of new stuff all at once, it's a gradual process of updating and testing and then tweaking that update until it's good to go until the next update comes out which completely unbalances the last update and so on.

 

Try to have some patience and understand the game isn't catered just towards a small group of players who have spent their time mastering the entire game, maybe it would be best if you take a break for awhile and come back to the game after it's had a few more updates instead of constantly hounding the developers for new content. 

 

The bottom line is, you're not saying anything that DE don't already know themselves.

 

I mean no offense sir, but as you're a PS4 player, you just haven't been here long enough to understand the history that goes into what we're all saying, and what has transpired between us and DE for it to get to the point.

 

I for one, welcome you to the community and wish you well on your journey through WarFrame, I hope the ride is as enjoyable as it was/is for those of who have and will post these letters to DE. You may have the same or similar concerns after a year or more playing this game, only to see things get worse instead of improve. (With the exception of the art department; the art department is first rate and has rarely if ever let the player base down, but that's just my opinion.)

[Zaresin]

I mean no offense sir, but as you're a PS4 player, you just haven't been here long enough to understand the history that goes into what we're all saying, and what has transpired between us and DE for it to get to the point.

I for one, welcome you to the community and wish you well on your journey through WarFrame, I hope the ride is as enjoyable as it was/is for those of who have and will post these letters to DE. You may have the same or similar concerns after a year or more playing this game, only to see things get worse instead of improve. (With the exception of the art department; the art department is first rate and has rarely if ever let the player base down, but that's just my opinion.)

These concerns are not new to this game or any other...the difference...those games are published and not in open beta...why don't you wait before crying foul.

I fully expect this game to change over the course of its lifetime as I'm sure you have seen changes since you started. Considering it is in open beta I expect things to change drastically between now and go live hell melee 2.0 is gonna be a big change. So instead of whining about WANT MORE CONTENT or worrying about an inconsequential mastery system...be patient and submit bugs as you find them and work with DE instead of these *@##$fest letters you are putting out....it just makes people look petty...like they don't actually realize...this game isn't out of development yet.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Zaresin

[--collstro--]

Again. Enough of the chest beating.  If you are 2, or 3, or 4, then just name yourselves.

 

You look like a fool pretending to speak for everyone. And that is exactly what you are doing by using terms like "a letter from your veterans" instead of "a letter from me and my buddy paul".

 

So who is this group of people whose behalf you are speaking on? Give us the names.

 

Patience, you'll see the letters as they come out, provided they aren't merged with existing letters by a moderator as one has already been. I can tell you this much. There are at least 5 more letters scheduled to be released at what we feel to be the most effective intervals, and many more that are either in the process of being written, or waiting to see what has been written, so the writer can add something new and different to the conversation.

 

Once again, we never once said we spoke on behalf of all veterans, but instead speak for ourselves and those veterans who share our opinions. The number of veterans I have discussed this with who support what we are doing, but are not at this time inclined to write letters of their own is at least 10 times greater than the number of veterans who have already written, are in the process or writing, or have committed to write their own letters.

 

As I said before. I don't see why this angers or annoys you so much. We don't, but even if we did speak on behalf of all veterans, you don't have enough experience or time in the game to be considered one. So whatever the case we certainly wouldn't be speaking on your behalf.

[Inquisitioner]

We never said we speak for everyone,  but until we receive a real response from DE the letters will continue from veterans who represent the leadership of many; if not eventually all prominent clans from all tiers, and leader board veterans. As a veteran you may not agree with all the points we make; even I don't fully agree with every point in each existing or upcoming letter. But, since none of the issues have been addressed other than in passing or with the now meme worthy "Soon™" we feel this our best, and sadly last thing we can do to express our concerns to DE before we all leave the game.

 

All of us to the last love(d) the game, which is why we've played it so long, but over the course of a year none our concerns have been addressed and in fact, many of the issues we're concerned about have gotten worse, (i.e. level of grind, communication, events, etc.)

 

To the members I quoted. While I respect your opinions, as I respect all, non-trolling or reflexively contrarian opinions; you haven't put in enough time in this game to be considered veterans. Not trying to insult either of you, it's just a fact after seeing the number of hours you have both put into the game. So none of our letters were ever intended to speak on your behalf, but thanks for your input.

 

So because I didn't AFK in-game enough time, suddenly I'm not considered a veteran even though I played Warframe since closed alpha and made my own account account during closed beta? What gives you the right to define and group veteran players and deny others? I've never claimed to be a top player, but I most certainly am a veteran player; regardless of your personal made-up prerequisites which are just plain absurd and arrogant to begin with.

 

My point being is that reaching out to DE and giving them time to consider it seems like a better approach rather than submitting several open letters. Because an open letter is meant to be read by a wide audience, whereas your target group is DE and not the community itself. Since this isn't some democracy where we can just re-elect people into DE that would represent your interests.

[(PSN)Xuiryus]

you don't have enough experience or time in the game to be considered one. So whatever the case we certainly wouldn't be speaking on your behalf.

 

This right here is one of the reason why people are speaking against you. Just because you've played the game longer you believe that gives you more of a right to be heard. You're just a player like the rest of us regardless of the number of hours spent playing the game.

[harly]

Patience, you'll see the letters as they come out, provided they aren't merged with existing letters by a moderator as one has already been. I can tell you this much. There are at least 5 more letters scheduled to be released

 

<snip>

 

 

As I said before. I don't see why this angers or annoys you so much. We don't, but even if we did speak on behalf of all veterans, you don't have enough experience or time in the game to be considered one. So whatever the case we certainly wouldn't be speaking on your behalf.

 

So 5 more letters. That's 7 people. Thanks for putting some perspective on your wild words. Hardly representative.

 

AS for your final paragraph. You're just revealing your arrogance. 

 

 Again. By all means voice your personal grievances with the game. Just stop pretending to be representing more people than you are. Because you don't.

 

And seriously. Your first point was about an arbitrary mastery rank that was just thrown out with achievements. You might want to work on writing better letters. Putting important things first. Just a pro tip.

[Zaresin]

So because I didn't AFK in-game enough time, suddenly I'm not considered a veteran even though I played Warframe since closed alpha and made my own account account during closed beta? What gives you the right to define and group veteran players and deny others? I've never claimed to be a top player, but I most certainly am a veteran player; regardless of your personal made-up prerequisites which are just plain absurd and arrogant to begin with.

 

My point being is that reaching out to DE and giving them time to consider it seems like a better approach rather than submitting several open letters. Because an open letter is meant to be read by a wide audience, whereas your target group is DE and not the community itself. Since this isn't some democracy where we can just re-elect people into DE that would represent your interests.

Well said...like I said...all these letters come across as a small group of people vying for attention. It doesn't help or change the situation all it does is leave a bad taste in the readers mouth...

[--collstro--]

These concerns are not new to this game or any other...the difference...those games are published and not in open beta...why don't you wait before crying foul.

I fully expect this game to change over the course of its lifetime as I'm sure you have seen changes since you started. Considering it is in open beta I expect things to change drastically between now and go live hell melee 2.0 is gonna be a big change. So instead of whining about WANT MORE CONTENT or worrying about an inconsequential mastery system...be patient and submit bugs as you find them and work with DE instead of these *@##$fest letters you are putting out....it just makes people look petty...like they don't actually realize...this game isn't out of development yet.

 

Once again, not speaking for anyone, least of all you. The letters are from veterans, outlying the concerns of people who have the familiarity with the game and its mechanics that comes from, 500, 1000, 2000+ hours in the game. If you want to share the perspective of a player who barely has 100 hours in the game with DE, I for one encourage you to do so. But what the veterans are trying to accomplish here stems from our experience from time spent playing the game.

 

If I saw letters like these when I barely had 100 hours playing the game, I would recognize I didn't have as much experience with the game or dealing with DE to criticize those who have been here 5,10, 20+ times longer than I have. It's a shame you do.

[(PSN)Xuiryus]

Once again, not speaking for anyone, least of all you. The letters are from veterans, outlying the concerns of people who have the familiarity with the game and its mechanics that comes from, 500, 1000, 2000+ hours in the game. If you want to share the perspective of a player who barely has 100 hours in the game with DE, I for one encourage you to do so. But what the veterans are trying to accomplish here stems from our experience from time spent playing the game.

 

If I saw letters like these when I barely had 100 hours playing the game, I would recognize I didn't have as much experience with the game or dealing with DE to criticize those who have been here 5,10, 20+ times longer than I have. It's a shame you do.

 

The arrogance seeping from you right now is palpable.

[harly]

This right here is one of the reason why people are speaking against you. Just because you've played the game longer you believe that gives you more of a right to be heard. You're just a player like the rest of us regardless of the number of hours spent playing the game.

 

I've been more involved in the forum community. And he created his account less than 3 months earlier than me. Whoop-de-do. He's waving his richard in the wind.

 

Seriously guy. You're one voice. You have collaborated with 6 others. Good on you. Might I suggest with the next letter you folk publish, you say something like "hey 7 of us have some feedback".  Thanks man, keep it real.  

[Silvershadow66]

If they have the resources to push out weekly updates, including cosmetics and monetisation, they have the resources to put out monthly giant updates reworking the fundamental parts of the game.

 

Simple.

 

Not simple, and you are wrong.

 

"Cosmetics and monetisation" are things that use existing assets to a great degree. All weapons are just "reskins" to one degree or another because the code for how weapons act is already in existence to one degree or another. Weapons are defined rather than coded until you get to a point where a brand new mechanic comes into play. So the Magnus and Kharak would have required very little coding but the Stug probably did require new code to be written. But in all the cases it will have been a fairly isolated piece of work.

 

Changing fundamental parts of the game is a whole different scale of task, consider melee 2.0, that could potentially impact all existing melee weapons to one degree or another when it comes to animations, it could alter their in game performance in unexpected ways as well. The effort involved is massive compare to adding a weapon.

 

Then you come to skillsets, the developers who handle the game engine and write the code that handles those fundamentals are not the artists or modellers, they are not the testers. The skills and experience needed are different and you cannot keep switching people between these areas efficiently. DE will have multiple development streams working on different aspects of future content, some tasks take weeks and some take months.

 

Think of it as building a large housing development, you need a lot of different skills (architects, brickies, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, painters, building inspectors etc). They all do best working on their own area of the project and they depend on each other to different degrees. If the architect wants extra plugs in a room (i,e, Magnus) that is something that the electricians can do followed by the painters making good, but if the architect finds that a room needs extending it needs work by everyone but the brickies need to put the walls up in the right place first before anyone else gets involved (i.e. Melee 2.0).

[harly]

Once again, not speaking for anyone, least of all you. The letters are from veterans

 

Dude. You're coming across as a bit of a jerk. Possibly not what you intend. But seriously, just stop claiming to be speaking on behalf of more than you actually are. You're trying to pretend your personal feedback is worth more than others, but really it isn't. It's just your feedback. Give it, and keep it in perspective. Stop trying to pretend to speak on behalf of others who might not share your view.