Shotgun Damage Dropoff Should Be Less Severe

[Fulmir]

Dude I wish, I WISH that it started at 30 meters. If it was 30 meters there would be a lot less people complaining.

Sorry, I miss-estimated where I thought I'd seen it star to occur. Went and did some quick measurements in the Dojo, though I didn't have anyone to test with. Seems to start about 20 meters and I'd say it ends around 40.

That said, a Dojo dueling arena is 30 meters to a side, which is about the average length of most firing-lines in most rooms. This isn't universal but it's pretty standard, and I'd say about 80-90% of the areas you're expected to transverse without cover are a similar size. There's almost no reason you can't get into a comfortable engagement range for a shotgun and for the few places you can't you should be carrying a longer-range Pistol to compensate.

If you really, absolutely need a longer-range weapon then there's a large selection of rifles, sniper-rifles, bows, and assorted other weapons that *are not shotguns* to pick from.

I would also like to point out that DE just released the Drakgoon under the shotgun umbrella, with no damage falloff, and the community has immediately declared it OP with a good dozen threads going on about how DE should/shouldn't nerf the thing. (which is about the surest way to get DE to re-evaluate the weapon and tweak it)

Could someone please try and explain to me how the entire argument that LukeAura has re-posted half a dozen times at least doesn't boil down to "make shotguns longer range so we can do OP builds like Sniper-Hek again". There's no argument about why shotguns having their own niche is bad for game balance or build diversity (by extension), there's just a lot of "this is a problem because reasons, please fix".

[NikolaiLev]

Sorry, I miss-estimated where I thought I'd seen it star to occur. Went and did some quick measurements in the Dojo, though I didn't have anyone to test with. Seems to start about 20 meters and I'd say it ends around 40.

That said, a Dojo dueling arena is 30 meters to a side, which is about the average length of most firing-lines in most rooms. This isn't universal but it's pretty standard, and I'd say about 80-90% of the areas you're expected to transverse without cover are a similar size. There's almost no reason you can't get into a comfortable engagement range for a shotgun and for the few places you can't you should be carrying a longer-range Pistol to compensate.

If you really, absolutely need a longer-range weapon then there's a large selection of rifles, sniper-rifles, bows, and assorted other weapons that *are not shotguns* to pick from.

I would also like to point out that DE just released the Drakgoon under the shotgun umbrella, with no damage falloff, and the community has immediately declared it OP with a good dozen threads going on about how DE should/shouldn't nerf the thing. (which is about the surest way to get DE to re-evaluate the weapon and tweak it)

Could someone please try and explain to me how the entire argument that LukeAura has re-posted half a dozen times at least doesn't boil down to "make shotguns longer range so we can do OP builds like Sniper-Hek again". There's no argument about why shotguns having their own niche is bad for game balance or build diversity (by extension), there's just a lot of "this is a problem because reasons, please fix".

 

It's a cop out answer to tell us to pick another weapon instead of agreeing that a certain weapon type needs to be fixed.  Shotguns should be a little more useful.

 

And the reason the Drakgoon is overpowered is because of its huge damage and tight spread, as well as its superior uptime compared to the Tigris; it directly imposes upon the role of another weapon without having a significant drawback.

 

The Drakgoon deserves its power, if it used sniper ammo and had a max ammo cap of 50 or so.  Then it'd be a niche weapon.

 

As for shotguns?  They're just left behind compared to weapons like Karak, which can operate at long range yet also sport excellent DPSes.

 

We're not asking for a sniper Hek.  We're just asking for shotguns to not be so impotent at any significant range.

[LazyKnight]

It's not 30 meters.  And the fact you lose more damage on spread means there really shouldn't be a significant loss on damage.

I do not know if fall-off was changed since update 9.6, and I do not know what Tigris has for fall-off, but I doubt it is that different.

 

From data mined info from Pwantron's old 9.6 master table.

 

Hek was: [20.00, 30.00]

Sobek was: [20.00, 30.00]

Strun was: [15.00, 25.00]

 

First number is distance in meters when fall of starts, second number is when fall-off is in full effect.

 

I believe that Strun's fall-off should be same as Strun Wraith, at least it was back when I tested it(no longer have strun to retest).

Edited January 14, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Fulmir]

It's a cop out answer to tell us to pick another weapon instead of agreeing that a certain weapon type needs to be fixed.  Shotguns should be a little more useful.

 

And the reason the Drakgoon is overpowered is because of its huge damage and tight spread, as well as its superior uptime compared to the Tigris; it directly imposes upon the role of another weapon without having a significant drawback.

 

The Drakgoon deserves its power, if it used sniper ammo and had a max ammo cap of 50 or so.  Then it'd be a niche weapon.

 

As for shotguns?  They're just left behind compared to weapons like Karak, which can operate at long range yet also sport excellent DPSes.

 

We're not asking for a sniper Hek.  We're just asking for shotguns to not be so impotent at any significant range.

Not really, shotguns are perfectly usable, they're close-range high DPS and high ammo efficiency (generally) and within that role perfectly useful.

As for the Drakgoon and the Tigris the Drakgoon is actually lower base DPS than the Tigris because its non-charged damage is lower than that listed in-game (the same as the Lanka) and even with a full fire-rate increase of 150% from two mods you're only bumping the charge speed from .8 to .4 and that second charge mod could be used for a more direct damage increase.

As to the Drakgoon "deserving its power" I have no idea how you'd determine that. It's not a particularly hard weapon to get or even to use. Also it's got a much wider spread by default than the Tigris so... yeah.

As for the Karak it's decent but it doesn't have the same per-shot damage or DPS as most shotguns. For ammo efficiency it exactly matches the Boar Prime for total ammo pool damage (540/120 gives a 4.5 damage ratio required between a rifle and a shotgun). However per-ammo pickup the Boar Prime wins since Rifle pickups are only 20 ammo and shotgun are 10 which means it would need to be doing at least half the damage as the Boar Prime to have the same damage efficiency per pickup.

 

Plus the Karak is less than half the DPS of the Boar Prime, 304.2 vs 678.2 respectively. Plus all of this is ignoring Crit damage for the sake of simplicity which pushes the Boar Prime further ahead.

So yeah, overall your claims don't add up. Shotguns trade their short range for plenty of damage and DPS as well as great ammo efficiency. There's nothing saying they need to be effective at long ranges beyond your personal request that this be the case.

[NikolaiLev]

I do not know if fall-off was changed since update 9.6, and I do not know what Tigris has for fall-off, but I doubt it is that different.

 

From data mined info from Pwantron's old 9.6 master table.

 

Hek was: [20.00, 30.00]

Sobek was: [20.00, 30.00]

Strun was: [15.00, 25.00]

 

First number is distance in meters when fall of starts, second number is when fall-off is in full effect.

 

I believe that Strun's fall-off should be same as Strun Wraith, at least it was back when I tested it(no longer have strun to retest).

 

See, the big problem I have is that the falloff is too sharp.  I'd be far more fine with the falloff if it was more like [20, 100].

 

You'd be losing out on damage, but you wouldn't suddenly be seeing 1s because you're at some arbitrary distance.

[Fulmir]

See, the big problem I have is that the falloff is too sharp.  I'd be far more fine with the falloff if it was more like [20, 100].

 

You'd be losing out on damage, but you wouldn't suddenly be seeing 1s because you're at some arbitrary distance.

I wouldn't exactly call their choice of distance arbitrary. Like I said earlier most firing lines aren't longer than 30 meters and it's pretty easy to get within 20 with how fast a warframe moves.

There are maybe 3-4 tiles right now were you'd even realistically expect to find enemies 100 meters out and only 1-2 with no cover you can use to safely close those distances before firing.

[NikolaiLev]

I wouldn't exactly call their choice of distance arbitrary. Like I said earlier most firing lines aren't longer than 30 meters and it's pretty easy to get within 20 with how fast a warframe moves.

 

I can't agree with this.  There are plenty of hallways where your damage on approach is just pitiful.  Shotguns aren't terribly underpowered, but I still don't see how this change would make them overpowered.  They'd just be more fun to use.

[Fulmir]

I can't agree with this.  There are plenty of hallways where your damage on approach is just pitiful.  Shotguns aren't terribly underpowered, but I still don't see how this change would make them overpowered.  They'd just be more fun to use.

I didn't say anything about damage on approach, I said it's possible to close that distance without taking much damage yourself. If you really want to shoot coming in bring a long-range side-arm and swap as you get into shotgun range.

What you're asking would basically give shotguns a similar range profile to rifles in most situations. That's the issue. These are specialized weapons which is why they get their high damage. DE could have nerfed Sniper-Hek by just dropping the damage down to be in-line with rifles but that wouldn't have kept shotguns as a unique weapon set that plays differently from other weapons.

[LukeAura]

Could someone please try and explain to me how the entire argument that LukeAura has re-posted half a dozen times at least doesn't boil down to "make shotguns longer range so we can do OP builds like Sniper-Hek again". There's no argument about why shotguns having their own niche is bad for game balance or build diversity (by extension), there's just a lot of "this is a problem because reasons, please fix".

Because my post basically ends with number 5. Make all falloff related values unique. 

Currently falloff over distance and fall off range are the same for all shotguns. Except Drakgoon. 

Likely, 10m, and around 1/7.  The only difference between falloff is about a variance of 10-15 metres from starting falloff points. 

If people don't want to see Sniper-Hek return give Hek unique falloff values that stop it from being a sniper, without punishing other shotguns for it. 

 

[LukeAura]

I didn't say anything about damage on approach, I said it's possible to close that distance without taking much damage yourself. If you really want to shoot coming in bring a long-range side-arm and swap as you get into shotgun range.

What you're asking would basically give shotguns a similar range profile to rifles in most situations. That's the issue. These are specialized weapons which is why they get their high damage. DE could have nerfed Sniper-Hek by just dropping the damage down to be in-line with rifles but that wouldn't have kept shotguns as a unique weapon set that plays differently from other weapons.

They could have nerfed it to be like old Sobek. Weak for a Shotgun, strong for a Rifle. 

[Fulmir]

Because my post basically ends with number 5. Make all falloff related values unique. 

Currently falloff over distance and fall off range are the same for all shotguns. Except Drakgoon. 

Likely, 10m, and around 1/7.  The only difference between falloff is about a variance of 10-15 metres from starting falloff points. 

If people don't want to see Sniper-Hek return give Hek unique falloff values that stop it from being a sniper, without punishing other shotguns for it. 

 

See below quote! Magic! Can this topic die now? Or at the least can you stop reposting that same set of bullet points?

 

I do not know if fall-off was changed since update 9.6, and I do not know what Tigris has for fall-off, but I doubt it is that different.

 

From data mined info from Pwantron's old 9.6 master table.

 

Hek was: [20.00, 30.00]

Sobek was: [20.00, 30.00]

Strun was: [15.00, 25.00]

 

First number is distance in meters when fall of starts, second number is when fall-off is in full effect.

 

I believe that Strun's fall-off should be same as Strun Wraith, at least it was back when I tested it(no longer have strun to retest).

 

 

They could have nerfed it to be like old Sobek. Weak for a Shotgun, strong for a Rifle. 

Key-word "old" as in "not like that anymore" which would generally indicate that they decided they didn't want the weapon to go in that direction. I'm not intimately familiar with the changes though so if you have more details here please share if they're relevant.

[NikolaiLev]

I didn't say anything about damage on approach, I said it's possible to close that distance without taking much damage yourself. If you really want to shoot coming in bring a long-range side-arm and swap as you get into shotgun range.

What you're asking would basically give shotguns a similar range profile to rifles in most situations. That's the issue. These are specialized weapons which is why they get their high damage. DE could have nerfed Sniper-Hek by just dropping the damage down to be in-line with rifles but that wouldn't have kept shotguns as a unique weapon set that plays differently from other weapons.

 

They wouldn't even be close to a similar range profile as rifles.  Assault rifles like the Karak can fire full auto at long ranges.

 

The biggest problem with shotguns right now is that they're close to point-blank weapons, which makes it hard to balance melee.  Once melee gets buffed there will be redundancy, and that creates problems.

 

Instead of waiting until then, it's wiser to make a change that will head this one off at the pass.

 

Shooting at medium-long range should be sub-optimal with shotguns.  Not impractical.

[LukeAura]

Key-word "old" as in "not like that anymore" which would generally indicate that they decided they didn't want the weapon to go in that direction. I'm not intimately familiar with the changes though so if you have more details here please share if they're relevant.

Which would be for the Sobek. Not the Hek. And it was an alternative to removing falloff from shotguns. So that wouldn't exist. 

Old Sobek had actually several old versions. 40, 80, 100(This being just right in old D1.0). 

So let's say for arguments sake a nice balance in there for the Hek would be 70. 

I won't do the numbers for you. But it makes it a lot less Op, even without falloff, without hurting other shotguns. 

 

 

See below quote! Magic! Can this topic die now? Or at the least can you stop reposting that same set of bullet points?

Did I repost it? Nope. Just summed it up with a small go over on how to avoid both nerfing falloff, and turning Hek in to a Sniper King again. 

And I can't quote a quote without it looking awful so(unless this one isn't the quoted and is in fact the original I didn't bother the energy in checking).... Yeah. 

Edited January 15, 2014 by LukeAura

[Fulmir]

They wouldn't even be close to a similar range profile as rifles.  Assault rifles like the Karak can fire full auto at long ranges.

 

The biggest problem with shotguns right now is that they're close to point-blank weapons, which makes it hard to balance melee.  Once melee gets buffed there will be redundancy, and that creates problems.

 

Instead of waiting until then, it's wiser to make a change that will head this one off at the pass.

 

Shooting at medium-long range should be sub-optimal with shotguns.  Not impractical.

There's no reason they should, as a class, step on the toes of Melee weapons. Most shotguns go well past maximum melee range for a start. Plus melee doesn't have ammo to worry about and generally plays very differently from most shotguns. A successful melee rework should play very differently from any sort of shotgun build and, in-fact, I have a hard time seeing how they could end up making melee and shotguns play in a similar way.

Plus 15-20 meters before damage drop-off kicks in is hardly "point blank" and certainly longer-range than any normal melee attack. The longest range melee attack I can think of is probably the Amphis' slam attack with maxed Reach which should be something around 8 meters total or a little less. Around half the range before the Strun even starts to experience damage-dropoff.

As for your last comment on long-range being sub-optimal vs impractical I have two points:

* Why? If they're impractical at long-range they can be balanced to be stronger up-close without fear of them being pushed into rifle territory like the old Hek was.

* At any kind of high difficulty these are the same thing for all intents and purposes. You either play to your weapon's strengths or you don't do well and at low-levels it doesn't matter. You can plink a level 10 Grineer to death with any level 30 Potatoed weapon you care to name, he'll die before you do.

[Fulmir]

Which would be for the Sobek. Not the Hek. And it was an alternative to removing falloff from shotguns. So that wouldn't exist. 

Old Sobek had actually several old versions. 40, 80, 100(This being just right in old D1.0). 

So let's say for arguments sake a nice balance in there for the Hek would be 70. 

I won't do the numbers for you. But it makes it a lot less Op, even without falloff, without hurting other shotguns. 

 

Sorry you're missing a few nouns or something here. This entire thought makes no sense, your numbers lack context (they're certainly not version numbers) and the first "it" in "And it was" doesn't give any clue as to what you're referring to.

As to the one part of your thing that does make sense the "OP"ness of a weapon isn't the only concern, uniqueness has to play a factor to. Otherwise we end up with redundant or out-classed weapons. If the Hek (for example) is as good as any Rifle out to the most common ranges why would I buy another gun?

 

 

Did I repost it? Nope. Just summed it up with a small go over on how to avoid both nerfing falloff, and turning Hek in to a Sniper King again. 

And I can't quote a quote without it looking awful so(unless this one isn't the quoted and is in fact the original I didn't bother the energy in checking).... Yeah. 

I'm in another thread with you where you said you'd reposted that same list every time this thread has come up. That's what I was referring to. It's a lousy list IMO because you're posting it like its an argument when it's a set of 'solutions' for a problem that not everyone feels is a problem. Certainly DE don't view it as much of a problem since they originally implemented falloff.

Also I was not commenting in any way on the formatting of your quote.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Fulmir

[LukeAura]

There's no reason they should, as a class, step on the toes of Melee weapons. Most shotguns go well past maximum melee range for a start. Plus melee doesn't have ammo to worry about and generally plays very differently from most shotguns. A successful melee rework should play very differently from any sort of shotgun build and, in-fact, I have a hard time seeing how they could end up making melee and shotguns play in a similar way.

Plus 15-20 meters before damage drop-off kicks in is hardly "point blank" and certainly longer-range than any normal melee attack. The longest range melee attack I can think of is probably the Amphis' slam attack with maxed Reach which should be something around 8 meters total or a little less. Around half the range before the Strun even starts to experience damage-dropoff.

As for your last comment on long-range being sub-optimal vs impractical I have two points:

* Why? If they're impractical at long-range they can be balanced to be stronger up-close without fear of them being pushed into rifle territory like the old Hek was.

* At any kind of high difficulty these are the same thing for all intents and purposes. You either play to your weapon's strengths or you don't do well and at low-levels it doesn't matter. You can plink a level 10 Grineer to death with any level 30 Potatoed weapon you care to name, he'll die before you do.

Melee is being updated. Which means that it will likely get an extension to its range. Therefore, stepping on toes. 

 

 

Sorry you're missing a few nouns or something here. This entire thought makes no sense, your numbers lack context (they're certainly not version numbers) and the first "it" in "And it was" doesn't give any clue as to what you're referring to.

The numbers are damage numbers. 

"It" was the whole idea of giving Hek Old Sobek levels of damage(Low for a shotgun.)

 

[Fulmir]

Melee is being updated. Which means that it will likely get an extension to its range. Therefore, stepping on toes. 

We've heard nothing to indicate melee is getting a range increase out of everything DE is shared and common sense would indicate half a dozen other ways to improve the melee game that don't involve having melee weapons hitting out near 10 meters. As I said the Amphis is an exception not a rule. Even the longest range normal melee swings barely hit 5 meters with range increasing mods and pushing them past that would be rather unintuitive since the models don't hit near that far out.

 

 

The numbers are damage numbers. 

"It" was the whole idea of giving Hek Old Sobek levels of damage(Low for a shotgun.)

Okay, but I'm not sure why you would think they would reverse course here. For one it would push the Hek more into rifle territory and the Hek isn't the only problem-child anymore. The Tigris would be even worse without damage falloff. Even with Vicious Spread it has very little pellet spread and very high damage.

If you don't have a solution that avoids shotguns stepping on Rifles as well as solving the balance issues then the current solution remains better.

[bobafetthotmail]

Not really, shotguns are perfectly usable, they're close-range high DPS and high ammo efficiency (generally) and within that role perfectly useful.

THis is ok for now that melee is crap, but what will happen when they overhaul it?

 

Will shotties still remain the best melee weapon or will melee weapons make them obsolete? Not talking of range, but overall DPS and usefullness.

 

I still think shotties need to be decently effective at longer ranges while getting a bit of DPS nerf.

Edited January 15, 2014 by bobafetthotmail

[LukeAura]

We've heard nothing to indicate melee is getting a range increase out of everything DE is shared and common sense would indicate half a dozen other ways to improve the melee game that don't involve having melee weapons hitting out near 10 meters. As I said the Amphis is an exception not a rule. Even the longest range normal melee swings barely hit 5 meters with range increasing mods and pushing them past that would be rather unintuitive since the models don't hit near that far out.

It's practically a necessity to the change in melee. Equipping melee weapons, auto-deflecting, damage increase. If that all is done right, then Melee will still be slower than gunplay, only useable when enemies charge at you like in Mobile Defense. It needs the range increase. 

 

 

Okay, but I'm not sure why you would think they would reverse course here. For one it would push the Hek more into rifle territory and the Hek isn't the only problem-child anymore. The Tigris would be even worse without damage falloff. Even with Vicious Spread it has very little pellet spread and very high damage.

If you don't have a solution that avoids shotguns stepping on Rifles as well as solving the balance issues then the current solution remains better.

My solution is to balance the current solution. Clearly fall off was designed around balancing the Hek at long range. 

Reducing the Hek's damage was only a retrospective solution. What they should have done when it became an issue. Not now when other Shotguns make use of tight spread cones.   

[MECT_HET]

1. Increase entering falloff range to 15 meters and balance it about each shotgun invidually.

2. Make the falloff curve a bit smoother (90%-80%-60%-30%-5%)

3. Lock the max penalty to at least 5% no matter of farther distance. This will help to avoid stupid cases when your shotgun damages 1-1-1-1. 

Edited January 15, 2014 by MECT_HET

[NikolaiLev]

1. Increase entering falloff range to 15 meters and balance it about each shotgun invidually.

2. Make the falloff curve a bit smoother (90%-80%-60%-30%-5%)

3. Lock the max penalty to at least 5% no matter of farther distance. This will help to avoid stupid cases when your shotgun damages 1-1-1-1. 

 

I like your post, except that the numbers are off.  The falloff range is about 15 meters.  It should be about 30 meters.  And the minimum damage does seem to be about 5%, which can easily lead to 1 damage after armor.  The minimum should be 30% or so.

 

But yes.  The most important part of thise is 2.  The falloff curve should be quite shallow, as opposed to how it is now.  You should reach minimum damage after 50 or so meters, not 10.

[Fulmir]

THis is ok for now that melee is crap, but what will happen when they overhaul it?

 

Will shotties still remain the best melee weapon or will melee weapons make them obsolete? Not talking of range, but overall DPS and usefullness.

 

I still think shotties need to be decently effective at longer ranges while getting a bit of DPS nerf.

At a guess shotguns will remain somewhat stronger in some situations but Melee will have other advantages like incapacitating the enemy more effectively, higher survivability, and not requiring ammo like shotguns do.

If you pushed out their range and nerfed their damage you'd have rifles in all but name. Not gonna happen that would just be making everything bland again and DE have shown that they don't want that.

 

It's practically a necessity to the change in melee. Equipping melee weapons, auto-deflecting, damage increase. If that all is done right, then Melee will still be slower than gunplay, only useable when enemies charge at you like in Mobile Defense. It needs the range increase. 

 

Not sure why you'd say that. We already have a fantastic movement system to go with the melee that lets you close distance easily and effectively. Add in equipping melee weapons and special buffs and effects for melee like higher status procs and disables and you have something really viable without letting it hit out past 10 meters, which sounds completely unintuitive and a bit stupid honestly.

 

My solution is to balance the current solution. Clearly fall off was designed around balancing the Hek at long range. 

Reducing the Hek's damage was only a retrospective solution. What they should have done when it became an issue. Not now when other Shotguns make use of tight spread cones.   

 

This *was* balanced when it became an issue and the recent weapons have been balanced around it. You just don't like their balancing choices but that doesn't make them bad or less valid decisions, especially when you can't actually put together a coherent argument for *why* these things are bad beyond "I don't like them, fix it!"

 

1. Increase entering falloff range to 15 meters and balance it about each shotgun invidually.

2. Make the falloff curve a bit smoother (90%-80%-60%-30%-5%)

3. Lock the max penalty to at least 5% no matter of farther distance. This will help to avoid stupid cases when your shotgun damages 1-1-1-1. 

Someone already posted the ranges for the Hek, Sobek, and Strun. The first two are 20 meters and the Strun is 15.

Also I can tell you from personal experience that if you're hitting 1s that's because either your shotgun doesn't do enough damage per pellet to do more than that at range or its being reduced by enemy armor or resistances. Personally my Tigris does mid double digits even at the end of its falloff and can't go lower than that, so it's already capped too.

Test this stuff before you post asking for it.

[nekrojiji]

to be honest, i think the current distances are fine, if the falloff doesnt end at basically no damage. say, even after fallout it would do 25% damage of normal damage, it would atleast do something. granted it could potentially re-introduce shotgun sniping back into the game.

 

 

I agree that shotguns should be used at close range.

 

But if shotguns have the damage per pellet inverslely proportional with the distance, than why automatic rifles have no damage falloff?!

 

Why have snipers if we can "snipe" with automatic rifles?!

 

If there's a damage falloff on shotguns ..... why not on autoamtic rifles!? (so autiomatic rifles still have more effective range than shotguns but less than semiautomatic/bolt-action rifles)

Edited January 15, 2014 by nekrojiji

[leonvision]

I agree that shotguns should be used at close range.

 

But if shotguns have the damage per pellet inverslely proportional with the distance, than why automatic rifles have no damage falloff?!

 

Why have snipers if we can "snipe" with automatic rifles?!

 

If there's a damage falloff on shotguns ..... why not on autoamtic rifles!? (so autiomatic rifles still have more effective range than shotguns but less than semiautomatic/bolt-action rifles)

 

because rifles fit into the role of being competent at basically all range(except extreme range). as for being able to "snipe" with rifles, yea, some rifles are accurate enough to snipe, but they DONT have pinpoint accuracy, which actual snipers do. snipers also come with better zoom. not to mention snipers also have better damage per hit/burst damage.

[NikolaiLev]

It really baffles me that you think shotguns would magically become rifles just because they're actually somewhat effective at medium range.  There'd still be a world of difference, even when it comes to automatic shotguns.

 

It's a good point that assault rifles lack falloff, which makes them impede on the territory of sniper rifles, which are already horribly weak, even the powerful ones like the Vectis and Lanka.  The Lanka was recently given innate punch through, which was really just a lazy bandaid solution of giving it AoE.

 

But I don't want to give assault rifles falloff, because it's really not a good mechanic.  Even if sniper rifles are mediocre, there is a difference in gameplay between sniper rifles and assault rifles.  And there would be one even if shotguns lacked damage falloff entirely.

 

Making the falloff more gradual wouldn't make them rifles any more than assault rifles are sniper rifles just because of the game's compressed distance.