Nerfing Every Frame

[-CM-Sean]

So here's what I think about people who think everything should be nerfed in this game:

 

Every day someone comes and complains that something should be nerfed, WHY? this is not a competitive game, its a coop game.  conclave should be balanced completely differently then PVE games.

 

1. Snow globe was not any more op then any other ability,

2. Trinity is not op

3. nova is not op

 

Why?

Because:

 

IF there are so many frames that have abilities that can be considered op, should they be nerfed???

 

1. loki can stay invisible indefinitely, too op

2. valkyr can be in hysteria indefinitely, too op

3. Mag can kill enemies over and over up to infitine levels with Shield polarize, too op

4. Vauban can trap people, indefinitely, too op

5. Nyx can keep people in chaos indefinitly, too op

6. ....

 

should all these get nerfed, notice that, valkyr, mag, vauban, and nyx have already been changed and "balanced."

 

I mean it just get ridiculous.  Anything can be said that its TOO OP, unbalanced. This is  A PVE game, if weapons or frames are to be changed they should only be affected in conclave. over powered is usually when battling another player.  Such games like league of legends, must do a massive amount of balancing, so things are not too op.  But Taking warframes and nerfing the heck out of them, so they can't kill beyond a certain level, is NOT too op.

 

If the game is meant to be played with endless survival/defense, then things SHOULD BE ABLE TO PROTECT, AND KILL up to infinite levels.  If not remove the endless stuff.  As it is right now. not many frames can even be taken to higher level defenses or survivals.  So i think all frames SHOULD ACTUALLY BE BUFFED TO be able to go to those levels.  Iif developers don't want people to play endless things, they should remove endless from the entire game, or otherwise provide a viable method of being able to play indefinitely, IF INFINITE SURVIVAL AND DEFENSE are left there.

 

ONE other thing to note is: please, don't take away the fun of this game.  People actually enjoy going to higher levels being swarmed by enemies and missing that split second blessing, or forgetting to protect the pod via snowglobe when you are being swarmed is instant mission failure.  So NO things are not op.

 

It takes time to build stronger frames and rank up some of their mods to max, so we should be able to take them to higher levels.

 

AGAIN I REITERATE to please add polls before changing frames, There is another topic WITH A POLL that i created about Snowglobes nerf, From the limited amount of polls taken, it is very apparent that Snowglobe nerf was completely unnecessary. 

 

 

Thank you.

Edited March 1, 2014 by -CM-Sean

[TheSeannachaidh]

Hear, hear from the other CM Sean[...]! :P

[1lusion]

I was waiting for someone to post this, for all the people complaining every second on the forum about "x is op nerf nerf nerf". And the thing is DE actually nerfing it next patch would make me a little upset.

Edited March 2, 2014 by 1lusion

[VKhaun]

All of those frames were still in danger except Loki, Trinity and Frost.

 

Frost is on the path to being fixed. I think Snowglobe needs a little love, but they've all but explicitly said they have plans to give it some kind of love, they just don't know what exactly. Armor value was the example they used, but there are other options. I liked one where someone suggested that it was invulnerable for the first X seconds it was out, and then had HP based on how much damage it absorbed during those X seconds. This would reinforce the intended use and still buff the hell out of it without adding incentive to the 'safe' gameplay of sitting in globes all day.

 

Loki doesn't need a nerf really, the AI needs a buff. Something so that it is aware he's out there once people start tying and fires randomly, swings wildly, etc. Maybe a drone that can point him out for the enemies and he has to kill it. Something like that.

 

I don't play Trinity and it's been a long time since I actually saw one so I shouldn't judge, but my impression is that she's got to be rocking multiple skills to get her power back by shooting enemies to keep her invulnerability going. Coupled with cast times and power management / mod slot requirements... that may be enough gameplay to justify her invulnerability...  I don't really know.

 

Nova I view as a placeholder. Since Nova was put in we've seen a few new versions of her that are more specialized, like Shield Polarize + the addition of Blind Rage vs Corpus that you mentioned. I think Nova will take a nerf bat to the eye that makes her more specialized but not weaker, but I don't expect that will happen until we have a few more frames out. Pure speculation, but that's where my thoughts are atm.

Edited March 1, 2014 by VKhaun

[Cwierz]

Rough translation of OP-

"I want this game to be easy mode, who cares if you take every piece of challenge away from the game, I like seeing big numbers without any effort"
"It takes time to build items, I guess that means they should give godmode and stupidly high damage!"
"I enjoy having incredibly OP things and stroking my ego by playing endgame because it doesn't reward more then the other missions and just serves to waste grinding time"


and the worst part of all of that.

"This is a co-op game and does not require balance"

This post, your past posts, and future posts are now all discredited.

By the way, you literally suggested that infinite scaling endgame was actually something we should balance around, I am done. This post is terrible, and I legitimately hope DE doesn't actually listen to people like this.


EDIT: The majority in this community I find, is almost never right despite the saying of "the consumer is always right". I realize that DE has to be subservient to the consumers/playerbase, but at the same time this playerbase knows nothing about how video games work and instead want this game to turn into an incredibly boring game, where only a select few will play because they can jerk off to the numbers they see on their screen.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Cwierz

[Megakruemel]

We can all agree on one thing to nerf though...

 

Nerf RNG plox.

[Namacyst]

Rough translation of OP-

"I want this game to be easy mode, who cares if you take every piece of challenege away from the game, I like seeing big numbers without any effort"

"It takes time to build items, I guess that means they should give godmode and insane damage!"

"I enjoy having incredibly OP things and stroking my ego by playing endgame because it doesn't reward more then the other missions and just serves to waste grinding time"

and the worst part of all of that.

"This is a co-op game and does not require balance"

This post, your past posts, and future posts are now all discredited.

By the way, you literally suggested that infinite scaling endgame was actually something we should balance around, I am done. This post is terrible, and I legitimately hope DE doesn't actually listen to people like this.

EDIT: The majority in this community I find, is almost never right despite the saying of "the consumer is always right". I realize that DE has to be subservient to the consumers/playerbase, but at the same time this playerbase knows nothing about how video games work and instead want this game to turn into an incredibly boring game, where only a select few will play because they can jerk off to the numbers they see on their screen.

 

Give this guy all the Upvotes you have!

[Cwierz]

We can all agree on one thing to nerf though...

 

Nerf RNG plox.

*replace in some sections*

RNG is good for some things, but DE is abusing it in their design of the game. RNG can be good when determining things like end of round bonus rewards(these should exist), login rewards, extra gifts after platinum purchases(these should exist), enemy composition type, maps, and smaller rewards.

However better systems like crafting should be in place for rarer items, and not like the crafting we have now. Like you can look in your codex to find the materials or mods needed to build X mod or what have you.

[Uluu]

To OP, while Snowglobe wasn't severely op to begin w/, it did limit the choice stat wise on what you prioritized on a Frost. Everyone wanted Globe Frost, which meant picking Avalanche or Ice Wave was secondary, and the stats you got were primarily duration w/ either a slightly above or below average to range. They (DE) wanted more choice for him, so they did what they had to do to make the other choices seem more enticing, which involved in a farily heavy nerf to Snowglobe. As for the examples you gave of abilities being "op" as a counter example vs the Trinity and Nova, you seem to be missing their drawbacks that the 2 you gave really don't have.

 

Trinity's Ult is global, making her entire team invincible for the duration you put in her. For me personally, for 25 energy, I can give my team around 22 seconds of invulnerability. How isn't this op? What drawback is there? A 0.6 cast time due to Natural Talent? Well for not taking any damage forever, sure, that seems fair to the other frames. Nova's Ult? What drawback is there again? It doesn't kill guys later on? Well it still slows them down, and they take increased damage at the very least.

 

Loki can be invisible yes, but isn't immune to damage, he can still die while being invisible, it isn't easy to die sure, but he can. Valkyr can become invincible for a short time, but she can't use her ranged weapons meaning she is going to have to get close up to the enemies to do any sort of damage. Mag's Shield Polarize can clear a room out just like a Nova ult, but only on enemies w/ Shields, namely the Corpus or the Orokin enemies, meaning she is more situational than a Nova is. Nyx is probably the closest example you got to an op ability, but it still has the draw back of you only get 1 cast till either a) all enemies affected by it are killed, or b) the duration is over, meaning you have to either hunt for the last few affected enemies or keep your duration shorter to make sure you can cast it more frequently.

 

I'm not advocating for nerfs per say, but your stance is a bit shacky at best, and overall this game could use a balance check every so often, otherwise things like Power-creep can become an issue.

[LukeAura]

AGAIN I REITERATE to please add polls before changing frames, There is another topic WITH A POLL that i created about Snowglobes nerf, From the limited amount of polls taken, it is very apparent that Snowglobe nerf was completely unnecessary. 

 

 

Thank you.

I'm giving you a +1 for this. Polling options on changes, even if only in the design council, I would like to see happen. 

Most everything else though... Yeah not so much. 

DE never intended for people to aim to go as long as they had in the endless defense and survival missions. The game will not be balanced around content above level 60 or so. Whatever works there isn't their concern. 

OPness in a PvE game is when mechanics of abilities start to invalidate other peoples ability to enjoy the game. 

Chaos isn't Op, enemies are still a threat under Chaos, still move and act aggressively, can still target a player. Rather enjoyable for other players, not op.

Bastille suspended every enemy, which made them sitting ducks but, still had to be shot individually, also took time to deploy. Not so enjoyable but not completely boring. Kind of Op. 

Invisibility? AoE damage, random cross fire damage, only able to take down one enemy at a time, draw no aggro. Only kind of OP solo, but that's not so much an issue with ruining other peoples fun as your own, which while still a factor in determining OPness, is less so. 

 

[JohnPetrucci]

Damn i hate this kind of threads!!!

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Wow, I wasn't expecting an opportunity to pull this out for quite some time.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NrbeZdVEfHF5b3sE9DNMaPWcgSWncAk1eYe87QSIiOk/

For the record, OP, endless content is not intended be balanced. The devs never expected it. Also, you can't balance both that and the rest of game.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[-CM-Sean]

All I am saying people will move from from to frame and this cycle will never end. Nothing will ever be good enough.  Changing things too often and too much in a game is a turn off for me and many other people.

 

The current targets are nova and trinity.  Next I am seeing a trend moving towards rhino again. and then perhaps mag?

I will try to be more constructive, and reword things better next time.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

All I am saying people will move from from to frame and this cycle will never end. Nothing will ever be good enough. Changing things too often and too much in a game is a turn off for me and many other people.

The current targets are nova and trinity. Next I am seeing a trend moving towards rhino again. and then perhaps mag?

I will try to be more constructive, and reword things better next time.

I can understand that, but there are problems (see above link). The fact is, it is actually impossible to balance the game which is why I've given up on all but the most extreme cases.

We need stable power growth or the removal of it before we can balance more than a small subset the game.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[-CM-Sean]

Wow, I wasn't expecting an opportunity to pull this out for quite some time.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NrbeZdVEfHF5b3sE9DNMaPWcgSWncAk1eYe87QSIiOk/

For the record, OP, endless content is not intended be balanced. The devs never expected it. Also, you can't balance both that and the rest of game.

 

The problem with this is, to balance the game you need to have unbalance.  To get a mod to get stronger, you must already be strong,  This is not a simple shooter game.

 

People grind and grind for hours and hours to find mods, cores, parts etc.  "Balancing" as you would say would increase the grind of things by a lot more.  People would not play the game if they go to a defense and die half the time.  

 

You must realize that a great group of players are still in the farming phase of the game, until the can obtain some mods.  To make things "balanced" would make it extremely frustrating to go after a certain mod that drops from a certain enemy in which only spawns at a higher level.

 

There is balance within the unbalance.  I hope this makes sense.

 

Over 700 hours of play and i never got a surefooted mod (its not completely necessary mod i guess, but thats besides the point). So i try to get my weapons and my frames stronger, better learn how to control things better, to grind even more to get that certain mod.

 

So if you want to balance things, Nerf things, make people fail more missions then they already do, The game will become extremely exhausting for players, and many will just give up.  Many still do give up.

 

People always make fun, and say stay in your invincible bubble, or trinity makes you invincible. Yes, SO? do you still have fun? I sure do. 

 

This is the true nature of the beast.

 

Many players forget how hard it is to kill things with an unmodded mk1, lato and skanna, If you have forgotten perhaps you can give the game another try from the beginning, to see IT is not that easy, especially if you only play 1 or 2 hours a day.

 

Things were challenging at some point, do you remember? and perhaps you have exhausted the game at this point, but things can still be challenging if you try to push your limits, not by trying to hinder things so you can satisfy the need to bring some challenge.  Things can still be fun. Playing with other players and friends can be lots of fun.

 

At some point people will reach a point where they have everything, leveled everything. and then, one of two things will happen, they will continue to play and try to push their limits in survival, defense, make new builds for guns, forma things differently etc. OR they will complain how things are TOO easy, forgetting how hard it was to get to where they are, requesting a challenge.

 

I am all for balance, But I am not in favor of hindering the already grindy aspect of gameplay which will make the game unplayable for new players all together.

 

Just my opinion about things :)

Edited March 1, 2014 by -CM-Sean

[luanle21]

DE need to make a poll to what to buff and what to nerf via DC so we have something to do

[-CM-Sean]

DE need to make a poll to what to buff and what to nerf via DC so we have something to do

 

I have suggested this in the past. an ingame poll would be very usefull.

[luanle21]

I have suggested this in the past. an ingame poll would be very usefull.

rather be a DC so people thats like to nerf everything in a PVE game wont cause problem cause DC people paid and invested in this game

Edited March 2, 2014 by luanle21

[RahuHordika]

rather be a DC so people thats like to nerf everything in a PVE game wont cause problem cause DC people paid and invested in this game

That does not necesarily mean they HAVE to know what's good and what's not. In many DC suggestion collections I've seen some really REALLY stupid ideas thrown out there.

Although granted there should be some kind of restriction over it so it won't get out of control.

@OP I agree with some points, not so much with others. However yes polls or something needs to be done before every drastic power 'rebalance', otherwise DE might tell us ahead of time but instead of listening to the feedback they simply apply it and then let the chaos ensue, and then they gather the feedback.

Edited March 2, 2014 by RahuStalker

[Zephyric_Reaper]

When an efficiency nova steps in for -any- mission it suddenly becomes some shoot the duck snore fest. I don't know you, but I like my gameplay fresh and challenging. I am not here to play the farming game I'd rather play the game than play to farm. If invincibility is not OP for you, then I don't know what is. 

Honestly, you seem to just want to play brain dead. Also, games are there to have variety and balance. I don't want this to become another GW2 where there's few classes that crush and few others that suck balls and always will. 

[WrothBog]

Rough translation of OP-

"I want this game to be easy mode, who cares if you take every piece of challenge away from the game, I like seeing big numbers without any effort"

"It takes time to build items, I guess that means they should give godmode and stupidly high damage!"

"I enjoy having incredibly OP things and stroking my ego by playing endgame because it doesn't reward more then the other missions and just serves to waste grinding time"

and the worst part of all of that.

"This is a co-op game and does not require balance"

This post, your past posts, and future posts are now all discredited.

By the way, you literally suggested that infinite scaling endgame was actually something we should balance around, I am done. This post is terrible, and I legitimately hope DE doesn't actually listen to people like this.

EDIT: The majority in this community I find, is almost never right despite the saying of "the consumer is always right". I realize that DE has to be subservient to the consumers/playerbase, but at the same time this playerbase knows nothing about how video games work and instead want this game to turn into an incredibly boring game, where only a select few will play because they can jerk off to the numbers they see on their screen.

i suggest everyone just keeps quoting this guy to get the message across

 

i play games to be challenged, nukes, ultimate spam, unbreakable crowd controls, invincibilities, weapons that can one shot high level bosses. all of that needs to go. the only way to balance that grabage is more enemies on screen and the netcode is horrible enough thanks

[Volt_Cruelerz]

The problem with this is, to balance the game you need to have unbalance.  To get a mod to get stronger, you must already be strong,  This is not a simple shooter game.

 

People grind and grind for hours and hours to find mods, cores, parts etc.  "Balancing" as you would say would increase the grind of things by a lot more.  People would not play the game if they go to a defense and die half the time.  

 

You must realize that a great group of players are still in the farming phase of the game, until the can obtain some mods.  To make things "balanced" would make it extremely frustrating to go after a certain mod that drops from a certain enemy in which only spawns at a higher level.

 

There is balance within the unbalance.  I hope this makes sense.

 

Over 700 hours of play and i never got a surefooted mod (its not completely necessary mod i guess, but thats besides the point). So i try to get my weapons and my frames stronger, better learn how to control things better, to grind even more to get that certain mod.

 

So if you want to balance things, Nerf things, make people fail more missions then they already do, The game will become extremely exhausting for players, and many will just give up.  Many still do give up.

 

People always make fun, and say stay in your invincible bubble, or trinity makes you invincible. Yes, SO? do you still have fun? I sure do. 

 

This is the true nature of the beast.

 

Many players forget how hard it is to kill things with an unmodded mk1, lato and skanna, If you have forgotten perhaps you can give the game another try from the beginning, to see IT is not that easy, especially if you only play 1 or 2 hours a day.

 

Things were challenging at some point, do you remember? and perhaps you have exhausted the game at this point, but things can still be challenging if you try to push your limits, not by trying to hinder things so you can satisfy the need to bring some challenge.  Things can still be fun. Playing with other players and friends can be lots of fun.

 

At some point people will reach a point where they have everything, leveled everything. and then, one of two things will happen, they will continue to play and try to push their limits in survival, defense, make new builds for guns, forma things differently etc. OR they will complain how things are TOO easy, forgetting how hard it was to get to where they are, requesting a challenge.

 

I am all for balance, But I am not in favor of hindering the already grindy aspect of gameplay which will make the game unplayable for new players all together.

 

Just my opinion about things :)

 

First off, that was a far more respectful post than I expected to get in response.  Thank you.

 

Last year, the game went through a critical development stage.  On one side were those of us that wanted it to be more of a shooter while the other side wanted it to be more RPG.  The debate is more commonly known as "sidegrades vs upgrades."  I know my side lost that war, but I still believe that those of us that are looking for challenge in this game can get it.

 

Also understand that I have a wish to rework Warframe such that power growth is related to mastery giving critical mods (or passives, but that has some problems associated with it) to players and mastery-locking mod ranks on damage mods.  The game can't be balanced at any more than one point in the game at the moment which is very regrettable.  It's just how the mod system works.  You never know how powerful someone will be because RNG*grind*equipment level.  Too many moving parts to actually have any semblance of balance.  I've got an entire thread on the subject (there's a lot more to it than what I just covered) and I do specifically concern myself with the development of power in new players.  You needn't worry that I've forgotten.

 

For me, fun is connected to challenge.  The problem is, Warframe is a numbers game and skill can never shine except for exceedingly brief situations.  And I love them.  I adore those times and I want to make the entire game feel that way.

 

I want to provide alternatives.  I want people to be able to play "safely" and just murder everything, but I also want other players to be able to be challenged.  Face it, there is no real challenge in upper-level survival and defense.  It's just increasingly impossible numbers which you are forced to combat with abilities that negate that growth.

 

Blessing in particular has come into my sights as of late because it does trivialize challenge.  I know there isn't any now, but moving forward, if we are to have a game that allows challenge, certain things that trivialize difficulty must go.  Blessing is one of those.  Snow Globe was another (for the record, I do not endorse the way they nerfed it and think they went too far).  I've been opposed to Frost's bubble of invincibility from the day it was implemented.  Not only did it cover up severely lacking areas on the rest of his kit, but it provided a crutch that the community leaned on far too long and became dependent upon.

 

I don't want Warframe to be more grindy.  As I said, I wanted sidegrades to win.  Upgrades won and I've accepted that, but if we're going to have power levels, we need to control the advancement of a player through them.  We cannot allow new players to get the Soma.

 

I think you missed a third option for what someone does at the end of it all and it's the one I've elected to take: delve into the fundamental problems with the game and explore.  Dig until you find gold.  Search until you find the tumor that is ailing the patient.  While on the surface, it may look as though I am just saying "Warframe is too easy," I assure you that there is much more to it than that.  Fundamentally, I am saying that Warframe cannot, regrettably, be balanced.  It will always (ok, 99.999% of the time) be imbalanced.  You will either be too weak or too strong for the content at hand.

 

That is what I want to change.  I want to make it so that players can always have content that it appropriate for their gear and that they will know what that content is and can easily access it.  That is my goal.  If people want to explore in either direction against over or under-leveled enemies, that's their own perogative, but I want to provide a situation in which players have content that is appropriate for their power level.

 

Back to things like Blessing, Iron Skin (old), Snow Globe (old), Bastille (old), and Overload (old).  These things either do or did trivialize content difficulty.  They cannot be allowed to exist in a final system if it is to allow difficulty because they will undermine it.  Does that make sense?  I know that right now, it honestly makes no difference, but I'm not looking at the short term.  I'm playing the long-game here.

 

I used to be concerned with short-term balance.  But ever since I've come to the realization that balance is impossible in Warframe's current state, I've given up on anything but making changes that will pave the way to a game that allows difficulty of varying levels and allows skill to shine.

 

I hope that made sense.  Sorry it turned out a lot longer than intended.

 

EDIT: btw, your love of polls is problematic.  Polls on forums fall prey to selection bias.  Also note that the masses are generally uninformed and are not a reliable source of trustworthy information on what is good and bad game design.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Cwierz]

snip

Hear hear for respectful posts.

I feel a bit bad about being overly critical now, but I do get sort of fed up with the kind of stuff in these posts(OP's).

 

I find myself agreeing with your posts, but at the same time I firmly believe that short term balancing is also important for a variety of reasons.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Cwierz

[shut]

Rough translation of OP-

"I want this game to be easy mode, who cares if you take every piece of challenge away from the game, I like seeing big numbers without any effort"

"It takes time to build items, I guess that means they should give godmode and stupidly high damage!"

"I enjoy having incredibly OP things and stroking my ego by playing endgame because it doesn't reward more then the other missions and just serves to waste grinding time"

and the worst part of all of that.

"This is a co-op game and does not require balance"

This post, your past posts, and future posts are now all discredited.

By the way, you literally suggested that infinite scaling endgame was actually something we should balance around, I am done. This post is terrible, and I legitimately hope DE doesn't actually listen to people like this.

EDIT: The majority in this community I find, is almost never right despite the saying of "the consumer is always right". I realize that DE has to be subservient to the consumers/playerbase, but at the same time this playerbase knows nothing about how video games work and instead want this game to turn into an incredibly boring game, where only a select few will play because they can jerk off to the numbers they see on their screen.

 

Agree wholeheartedly; couldn't have explained it better myself.

The edit is especially true, and somewhat painfully so. The majority is not always right.

 

Edited March 2, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Hear hear for respectful posts.

I feel a bit bad about being overly critical now, but I do get sort of fed up with the kind of stuff in these posts(OP's).

 

I find myself agreeing with your posts, but at the same time I firmly believe that short term balancing is also important for a variety of reasons.

Don't feel too bad; I almost responded in the same way and probably would have if I hadn't had that pre-typed response to paste in here lol.

 

In extreme situations, yes.  First thing that comes to mind is buffing the Spectra.  I'd +1 a reasonable buff proposal, but I'm not going to pursue it myself.  The unfortunate fact is that everything else pales in comparison to fixing power growth.  Even if we fixed everything else (not hard), we'd still run into fundamental issues.  If I were given full reign, I'd do the following:

 

Cluster A (Must happen or everything else is meaningless)

1. Move power growth to a reworked version of Mastery

2. Make crit damage be weakpoint damage

3. Make elemental mods convert damage to that type

4. Rework crit chance mods to be "proc effect" mods that increase the power of a proc if it happens

5. Adjust enemy difficulty to match power growth

 

Cluster B (Actually balance the game)

1. Apply several QoL changes to frames and rework Trinity's kit

2. Coarse balance of DPS weapons (I could probably get something reasonable done in about three hours)

3. Coarse balance of TTK weapons (probably take a day)

4. Rework the resistances system to resemble that which Notion came up with a while back

 

Cluster C (Tweak the balance of the game)

1. Finer balancing of DPS and TTK weapons based on feedback

2. Buffs/Nerfs on Warframes

3. Implement a proper stealth system

4. Rework energy system

5. Work on mission types

6. Rework resource drops

 

I want to be in B and C, but unfortunately, I'm stuck in A.