There Shouldn't Be An I In Team, And Here's How To Fix That. (Or, What To Be Done About The Incompatibility Of Warframes)

[8bit_Ghost]

I made this post a few hours ago: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/192499-if-youre-gonna-nerf-frost-might-as-well-nerf-rhino-or-an-epiphany-on-the-state-of-warframe/ . The point is clear and my message still stands: Warframes are imbalanced and the existence of a meta perpetuates that. The only way to fix this is to nerf some frames but buff others. The question you might have is: which Warframes need buffs and which need nerfs? Or: are you completely out of your mind leave my favorite frame alone!!. Well my answer actually doesn't apply to either of those questions. But I will say this: I raised questions, and I reached a lot of you. 1000 of you so far. So now that I have your attention, here is the next stage of my explanation.

Right now, Warframe has nothing implemented that encourages cooperative play. It's fun to be cooperative, but there is no reason to do so. It's more efficient to do whatever you want, and let others fend to themselves until they die. Usually. "So Luc", you may ask, "what are you trying to propose"?

My suggestion is so simple but at the same time so necessary. And I came to this realization so recently despite how many months it's been implemented.

It starts with Damage 2.0. Right now, we have 4 elements, which mix together into 6 more. Ten different elements and effects. Every weapon can employ these effects, too. But it's not just weapons that now deal different elemental effects; powers deal elemental damage too now. So, on that logic, I came to a shocking realization. If many powers have elemental stats to them now, then why can't I do this:

Frost places a Snow Globe, trapping enemies in it

Ember fires a Fireball at the Snow Globe:

Fire + Ice in Warframe = Blast damage.

By all means, the snow globe should explode, killing all enemies inside as well as around it.

And that is what I propose. I suggest that we have combination skills available to every frame, and every frame has a power that can be used in conjunction with at least ONE of another frame's powers.

And I will say this: if combination powers are implemented, it can make players stick together to deal massive amounts of damage by combining their skills to the fullest. Damage 2.0 has introduced something that needs to happen: Powers 2.0. Right now every single power is exactly the same as they were when introduced (plus/minus a few buffs and nerfs, but the general execution is the same). But what can really soar from this is what will effect almost everything that players keep asking for, and it can fix RNG, reputation, and the nerf/buff issues we have.

And that, is Kill Assists.
 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/192865-set-me-on-fire-ember-or-how-combination-powers-can-work-and-a-large-amount-of-proposed-combos/ is the post explaining some of these powers. Information on Kill Assists and why they matter so much will come soon.

Edited March 10, 2014 by 8bit_Ghost

[Kloaked]

I luv dis

 

EDIT:

 

I have totally been thinking about what you posted (Powers 2.0) for a while after Damage 2.0 came out. It wouldn't necessarily force people for cooperative play, but it will encourage it more which is excellent. Zephyr's Tornado features a little bit of what I think should happen across the board, which is what I think DE is experimenting with anyways with Tornado.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Kloaked

[8bit_Ghost]

I luv dis

 

EDIT:

 

I have totally been thinking about what you posted (Powers 2.0) for a while after Damage 2.0 came out. It wouldn't necessarily force people for cooperative play, but it will encourage it more which is excellent. Zephyr's Tornado features a little bit of what I think should happen across the board, which is what I think DE is experimenting with anyways with Tornado.

Indeed. You'll love the combinations I come up with later, then.

[BrotherIcarus]

I came here expecting something widely different but I am happy to say I am surprised with what I found this seems like a solid solution to some of the problems of the game.

 

All I got to say is "But 8Bit what about me mister Bad &#! lone wolf" So  ye will this effect solo play? If so how will it? 

Edited March 9, 2014 by BrotherIcarus

[quan256]

[Kamentari]

I remember a long time ago on a thread Steve made (I think it was him), a couple of people included me suggested to have something like this, we suggested something like tech bursts and biotic explosions from Mass Effect 3.

I hope they listen to this now, having synergy between players is a really cool and useful thing.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Blekarotva

[NovusNiveus]

Casting an Electric Shield or a Bullet Attractor inside a snowglobe could combine their effects - it would also cause enemies inside/near the globe to take constant electrical/magnetic damage, respectively.

[Llyssa]

On the one hand, it's interesting. On the other hand, there's 18 unique frames, 72 unique powers, and 4,896 possible combinations(supposing that 2 identical frames can't combo). That's a tad daunting.

 

With the advent of tornado, it's definitely something they've got the basics laid out for. But the actual design and implementation would be quite a chore. There's also some existing comboes(so far as I know, radial javelin still comboes with bullet attractor;  and snowglobe+bastille is still an immortality prism, despite nerfs to both).

 

I suppose if they DID do something like this, they'd have to release them a few at a time, as tenno reinforcements--instead of new weapons every week, we'd get new comboes.

 

That would make it sane.

 

A side bonus is that it'd end a lot of the whining about some skills. If you don't like X, the combination of X plus Y might be extraordinary.

 

We'd need another codex section just to list all of the known comboes, but that doesn't seem too implausible.

 

Interesting idea, but definitely something that has to wait until melee 6.0 is here.

[Llyssa]

As an aside, the topic name is terrible, misleading, and entirely incorrect, but if it gets the people looking, I guess that's okay.

[Temfist]

I really like the blast damage example you gave for Snow Globe, but I don't know if that would be "good" for the team, as it would remove the snow globe in exchange for damage and cc.

 

I dunno if Snow Globe should "kill enemies", but I do think that it should cause CC, like if it exploded and "Blinded". that said, I think thats what Snow Globe should do, right now, on it's own. Snow Globe should do something when it ends.

 

speaking of snowglobe being buffed;

If you wanted it to do damage too however, then power strength would just make Snow Globe another move in Frost's Bruiser arsenal. that said, if it did that, then Snow Globe's "health" should be effected by Power Duration instead of Power Strength. It's slow effect however, inside the globe, should be effected by power strength. This would make Power Strength Frost a bruiser with CC, and Power Duration would make him a Tank with CC. This would be perfect imo.

 

that all aside, I liked Tornado, but I don't think all moves should work that way. If a move has a duration as an object that interacts with enemies, then I suppose your "Combo" suggestion could apply. that said, Snow Globe shouldn't immediately explode, it would more likely gain the status effect of the elemental it was hit with, but even then, Snow Globe wouldn't be as good for CC if you could change it too Viral or Magnetic, as cool as that might be, so I don't see it being "beneficial", or really worth implementing for a lot of the moves. Certain moves may work like that better then others, but it may require Ult's.

 

Combo Ult's like; "Vortex" + "Crush" making Vortex into a Black Hole that explodes, or "World on Fire" + "Miasma" making Embers Ult become a giant gas Cloud, or "Blessing" + "Shadows of the Dead" making all of your Zombies last that much longer + temporary invincibility etc.

 

those kinds of combos would only work with certain moves however. It would be really, really hard to try and "balance" that between Frames.

[NovusNiveus]

The brackets tipped me off that it was going to be about power synergy, although the text in the brackets probably should have been the title alone.

[baron1357]

  and snowglobe+bastille is still an immortality prism, despite nerfs to both).

 

 

dont forget halloweed ground for dot

[Onihikage]

I posted my ideas for ability combos a long time ago; I wonder how many you'll also have thought of, and how many I didn't. (I did have the ability ice + ability fire = ability explode)

[PoorCensored]

I don't know... there are some team tactics... some frames are better at it than others...

 

So, I know that sticking Djinn on a tank (properly built Rhino or Valkyr) will allow you to attract a ton of attention so burst damage frames can do their things.

 

Vau... and Mag both have some pretty handy skills for team work. Mag's pull works well with just about everyone's CC and any trap abilities.

 

Trinity is... Trinity... though she does work really well by herself.

 

Please make no mistake, I would love to see more synergies. I'm just saying there are some really good ones already out there, if the players are team minded.

[Deservate]

The idea is really awesome. But there are two problems. The first is that this will take a massive amount of time. There are simply too much combinations possible. The second is: players can ruin others abilities. For example: ember casts a fire ability against infested. Cool and all, but then a volt shows up. Oh look magnetic!

I like it really much, but there are negative aspects.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Deservate

[Onihikage]

^ Um, fire + electric is radiation, not magnetic. But yes, some combo abilities as discussed could have the potential for abuse/griefing/conflicts.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Onihikage

[baron1357]

The idea is really awesome. But there are two problems. The first is that this will take a massive amount of time. There are simply too much combinations possible. The second is: players can ruin others abilities. For example: ember casts a fire ability against infested. Cool and all, but then a volt shows up. Oh look magnetic!

I like it really much, but there are negative aspects.

This is a good point but if de could only make the best combos work on the targeted  enemy

 

Kinda like Fire+electric wont work on infested  but just deal fire then electricity

Edited March 9, 2014 by BARON1357

[Riot_Inducer]

I really like the combo idea, as someone else mentioned they were tons of fun in ME3. I think you'd have to codify the combos/powers to make it both easy to follow and to prevent griefing (don't want to make frosts rage by constantly blowing up their snow globes).

 

In GW2 they utilize a combo system that's based around skills having a type of "combo field" effect that can be affected by different "combo finishers" for various effect. You could utilize a similar system where certain powers are "x element combo field" and/or "x element combo finisher

[Grissozz]

While i like the idea of combo's please refrain from pushing the devs in the direction of mass effect co-op playstyle.

Dont get me wrong i loved playing mass effect (950+ hrs) But ..... if i wanted to biotic explode or techburst i'd rather play mass effect.

Clearly the devs intent is to create an original game. One with its own feel and quirks to come along with that.

[MegaSnail]

For once In my life I must agree with you. I would love to see an exploding bubbles of mass destruction, an infinite amount of ups to you!

[8bit_Ghost]

For once In my life I must agree with you. I would love to see an exploding bubbles of mass destruction, an infinite amount of ups to you!

Even though your other post wasn't posted, it's still in your profile. You're right, I don't have much experience in the game and I have complained a few times. Not about players, per say, though. This game is flawed as great as it is. And with these posts, I plan on pointing out what I've observed; I have 5 different posts planned, 2 have already been done. The first was just the hook. You get players/a crowd interested in either proving you wrong or supporting you. The topic titles are slightly misleading but also fit in well with what the content of the post is. If I've got you hooked now, then you'll be excited to see what power combos I have written out, as well as how Kill Assists will practically fix the game.

If I could +1 you more I would.

[Llyssa]

One thing I think, as others have mentioned the issue, is that there'd need to be a comboing mod to activate these. That way, if you actually want your snowglobe to be a snowglobe, you can keep it that way, but if you want to have it explode or w/e, you can set yourself so that becomes an option. Perhaps as a generic skill.

[Axterix13]

Seems problematic.

 

1.  Player damage is overpowered.  Because of this, the only time such an idea would help is if you're doing an endless type situation.  Against content we really shouldn't be able to do anyway.

2.  Solo vs team issues.  If these powers are worth using, then the game has to be balanced with that taken into account.  A solo player can't combo these things, so...

3.  Certain enemies are weak and strong to certain things.  This will lead to people only wanting certain combinations based on the enemy group they are facing.  Yup, it'll happen even if it isn't really necessary.  Just look at how many people are looking for specific frames for the core missions.

4.  Anything that encourages Frosts from tossing up snow globes willy-nilly is bad.

5.  How do you combine certain powers?  What does Chaos + Fireball do?  How about Slashdash + World on Fire?

6.  Ever increasing dev workload when adding new frames.  Any new frame means 4 new powers, which means up to 4 x 4 x number_of_other_frames in interactions.  Their goal is an eventual mastery rank of 30... that's probably 2x the number of (non-prime) frames we have currently.

7.  Ever increasing amount of things a player needs to know.  Do you want to fireball that Snow Globe?  How about the Bastille?  Maybe the mobs the Mag is crushing?  Sure, fine for the hardcore, but not for the casuals, who will make up the majority of the playerbase.

 

And that's just stuff off the top of my head.

 

Now, I have played some games that use team combo systems, but they tend to keep things a bit more limited.  A limited number of categories that get combined in certain orders to produce certain effects.  It helps keep the number of interactions manageable.  That lightens the load on the devs considerably, as well as on players.  It also means that there's multiple classes that provide what you need for the combo, lessening the "must have X class" factor.

 

But anyway, if you want the team to stick together more, the simplest way is to make the enemies tougher.  If a player is at serious risk when they're alone, they'll be a lot more likely to stick by the team.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Axterix13

[8bit_Ghost]

 

But anyway, if you want the team to stick together more, the simplest way is to make the enemies tougher.  If a player is at serious risk when they're alone, they'll be a lot more likely to stick by the team.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/183773-enemies-20-an-idea-ive-been-thinking-of-long-post/ in response to enemies being harder, I recommend this post here.

In response to all your other points, I'll get all of those with my next post about the dynamics with power combinations. In full.

Also, as an aside to all people concerned: I decided quickly (but didn't announce) that Snow Globe would not explode when combined with a power--immediately. Instead, as Snow Globe has health, the moment it runs out of health is the time it explodes, allowing it to live its full course without nerfing it unintentionally.

Edited March 9, 2014 by 8bit_Ghost

[MegaSnail]

Alright, 8bit, I take back anything I said about you. I will try to look at your posts at a different perspective.