Rhino Is Not A Tank But A Juggernaut

[Zarozian]

point is, his drawbacks (being a jack of all trades but a master of none) are not noticeable until you start playing endless defense and survival, in every other mission type his supposedly drawbacks are nonexistant. i get your point, now would you please tell me if you think 1,125 running speed was sufficient or that the buff for rhino prime was needed? i'm interested in your oppinion

Have you seen Trinity in survival, shooting herself in the foot?

 

Have you seen her in defense? 

 

 Look at that noob Trinity to, soloing through an exterminate mission and clearing it within 39 seconds just by shooting herself in her damn foot with her nooby ogris.

 

Yet we're all fine with that. Does Trinity have drawbacks?

 

Yes but she certainly has a way to make up for it and so does every other warframe.

 

Rhino Prime is no different. Besides Trinity can survive longer than Rhino and Valkyr can tank damage better and she has more armor, Frost has his bubble shield which is now like Rhino's Iron Skin, only it can protect everyone, and he still has more dps and some form of cc still left even after the horrible nerf to his globe.

 

People need to realize Rhino has drawbacks.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Zarozian

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

Have you seen Trinity in survival, shooting herself in the foot?

 

Have you seen her in defense? 

 

 

Yet we're all fine with that. Does Trinity have drawbacks?

 

Yes but she certainly has a way to make up for it and so does every other warframe.

 

Rhino Prime is no different. Besides Trinity can survive longer than Rhino and Valkyr can tank damage better and she has more armor, Frost has his bubble shield which is now like Rhino's Iron Skin, only it can protect everyone, and he still has more dps and some form of cc still left even after the horrible nerf to his globe.

 

People need to realize Rhino has drawbacks.

why are you evading a simple question? i know trinity well, well enough to know that she can die easily on higher levels during blessings, and well enough to know that she needs a rework. would you please tell me now if you think 1,125 running speed was enough or rhino needed 1,25? i'm genuinly interested in your thoughts

Edited March 12, 2014 by MortalSin

[Rakosta_Kai]

They're not going to nerf the regular Vanguard because the regular Rhinos still need it.

 

People need to realize that Rhinos drawbacks were never only just his speed, but everything else he had compared to all the other Warframes.

Which is my point.

This whole issue is a non-starter because it resolves nothing.

It's the equivalent of kids arguing over who got the larger dessert portion.

 

Nerfs solve nothing in this case. We are talking about a frame who can cross the length of a room in a flash by mastery rank 2.

Looking for drawbacks is likewise irrelevant. Rhino in the hands of a bad player is his own worst enemy and always has been.

 

Real topics for conversation would be normalizing speed for the slower frames like Frost and Saryn. Who have drawbacks aplenty without speed being among them.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Padre_Akais

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

Which is my point.

This whole issue is a non-starter because it resolves nothing.

It's the equivalent of kids arguing over who got the larger dessert portion.

 

Nerfs solve nothing in this case. We are talking about a frame who can cross the length of a room by mastery rank 2.

Looking for drawbacks is likewise irrelevant. Rhino in the hands of a bad player is his own worst enemy and always has been.

 

Real topics for conversation would be normalizing speed for the slower frames like Frost and Saryn. Who have drawbacks aplenty without speed being among them.

normalizing speed would work if there were no helmet stats. the whole matter with rhino prime comes from the interaction between rhino prime AND vanguard, not rhino prime itself. and i'd even agree on the buff for rhino prime if there were no vanguard helmet.

[Zarozian]

why are you evading a simple question? i know trinity well, well enough to know that she can die easily on higher levels during blessings, and well enough to know that she needs a rework. would you please tell me now if you think 1,125 running speed was enough or rhino needed 1,25? i'm genuinly interested in your thoughts

Because speed is useless other than being able to rush to a fallen ally who is dying on the other side of the map, and being able to keep up with the rest of the team.

 

Loki has speed but he is dependent on his invisibility more so than his speed am I right?

 

Speed has little to offer and barely changes anything. If you honestly think that Rhino being fast really makes a difference then you have not played Rhino enough to understand where his drawbacks truly lie in.

 

I also never said Rhino was the jack of all trades. 

 

I made it clear that he is the Juggernaut.

 

Juggernauts are supposed to be fast as well as unstoppable.

 

Although what I don't understand is why you have such a huge problem with it. 

Edited March 12, 2014 by Zarozian

[Zarozian]

normalizing speed would work if there were no helmet stats. the whole matter with rhino prime comes from the interaction between rhino prime AND vanguard, not rhino prime itself. and i'd even agree on the buff for rhino prime if there were no vanguard helmet.

What's wrong with Rhino being fast?

 

Hes not even a tank.

 

His drawback lies in his skill damage.

 

Which is made up for with Roar, which doesn't really last that long, and it buffs all teammates. Not just Rhino.

 

Now lets be realistic here. Rhino Stomp is half cc and half damage. More cc than damage.

 

Then we have Nova who is pure damage, and Vauban who is pure cc.

 

Now if you are still looking for a drawback, I'd say one drawback of Rhino would be his power pool.

 

He has less than everyone else. :(

Edited March 12, 2014 by Zarozian

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

Because speed is useless other than being able to rush to a fallen ally who is dying on the other side of the map, and being able to keep up with the rest of the team.

 

Loki has speed but he is dependent on his invisibility more so than his speed am I right?

 

Speed has little to offer and barely changes anything. If you honestly think that Rhino being fast really makes a difference then you have not played Rhino enough to understand where his drawbacks truly lie in.

 

I also never said Rhino was the jack of all trades. 

 

I made it clear that he is the Juggernaut.

 

Juggernauts are supposed to be fast as well as unstoppable.

 

Although what I don't understand is why you have such a huge problem with it. 

you're not right about loki, at least not entirely. you can run loki 90% of the time without invisibility, it's just to get you out of sticky situations. when you're running a disarm build it's not even possible to stay invisible for longer periods.

 

and a frame being fast and unstoppable would be inbalanced, a frame being unstoppable by itself is the very definition of inbalanced. every other frame has drawbacks, things they need to take into consideration, except rhino prime of course.

Edited March 12, 2014 by MortalSin

[Zarozian]

you're not right about loki, at least not entirely. you can run loki 90% of the time without invisibility, it's just to get you out of sticky situations. when you're running a disarm build it's not even possible to stay invisible for longer periods.

 

and a frame being fast and unstoppable would be inbalanced, a frame being unstoppable by itself is the very definition of inbalanced. every other frame has drawbacks, things they need to take into consideration, except rhino prime of course.

Good. I just want to make it clear you can do that with any other warframe as well.

 

Now what makes you think Loki depends on speed more than his invisibility? 

 

And what do you believe Rhino's role should be that makes you think hes unbalanced? Also inbalanced is not a real word, I believe the word you are looking for is imbalanced. :3

 

Rhino Prime has drawbacks of course, but drawbacks only exist when you compare them to other frames.

 

Rhino Prime's drawback is his Power Pool.

 

Now seriously though. Just what role do you think Rhino plays in the game?

Edited March 12, 2014 by Zarozian

[Rakosta_Kai]

normalizing speed would work if there were no helmet stats. the whole matter with rhino prime comes from the interaction between rhino prime AND vanguard, not rhino prime itself. and i'd even agree on the buff for rhino prime if there were no vanguard helmet.

Let's dive to the heart of the matter...

Why exactly is Rhino Prime's supposed speed a problem? What game altering affect does it potentially represent?

 

 

I'm not bashing, I am genuinely confused and curious...

You can PM me with that answer if you want so it's not fodder for an argument.

[HolidayPi3]

What's wrong with Rhino being fast?

 

Hes not even a tank.

 

His drawback lies in his skill damage.

 

Which is made up for with Roar, which doesn't really last that long, and it buffs all teammates. Not just Rhino.

 

Now lets be realistic here. Rhino Stomp is half cc and half damage. More cc than damage.

 

Then we have Nova who is pure damage, and Vauban who is pure cc.

 

Now if you are still looking for a drawback, I'd say one drawback of Rhino would be his power pool.

 

He has less than everyone else. :(

Nova is pure damage, Vauban is all CC. They're both glassy but relatively fast.

Rhino gets damage and utility. He's tanky, but not fast.

Now he's fast.

Rhino's drawback was his speed. Now he has that.

That's the main point of contention.

[Zarozian]

Let's dive to the heart of the matter...

Why exactly is Rhino Prime's supposed speed a problem? What game altering affect does it potentially represent?

 

 

I'm not bashing, I am genuinely confused and curious...

You can PM me with that answer if you want so it's not fodder for an argument.

I believe we all know the answer as to why no one wants Rhino's sprint speed to be so fast.

 

It all lies in the stereotype of being a tank.

 

Hence we discard the title "tank" that's being used when referring to Rhino for "Juggernaut" a more suitable name for the role that he plays.

[Zarozian]

Nova is pure damage, Vauban is all CC. They're both glassy but relatively fast.

Rhino gets damage and utility. He's tanky, but not fast.

Now he's fast.

Rhino's drawback was his speed. Now he has that.

That's the main point of contention.

Hes not tanky at all.

 

Hes as tanky as Frost inside the Snow Globe, just that he doesn't share it with anyone else but himself.

 

Valkyr and Trinity are clearly tankier since they take no damage at all.

 

Other frames can turn invisible and tank no damage at all.

 

Speed was never a benefit nor a drawback. It simply helps people move faster and keep up.

 

If you want to point out how speed helps squishier warframes dodge bullets and attacks, then I can also point out how any other warframe can do that and much better as well, just by being invisible without the need to ever be fast.

 

Reason why Rhino Prime Vanguard is fast, is not to dodge bullets but rather to run over to save allies in time.

 

Rhino Stomp to freeze all enemies while he revives an ally, Iron Skin to help Rhino endure the attacks long enough so that he can revive his ally, and his speed to help him make it to all his allies in time before they die. Just like what the Vanguard helmet suggest it does.

[jinsaotomex4]

Rhino is just an inferior version of the Mass Effect Vanguard.

[Zarozian]

Rhino is just an inferior version of the Mass Effect Vanguard.

Basically this^

 

So Rhino is fine as he should be, for he was always balanced to begin with. The increase in speed won't make much of a difference, but it would rather benefit other players dying in a team with him more.

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

Good. I just want to make it clear you can do that with any other warframe as well.

 

Now what makes you think Loki depends on speed more than his invisibility? 

 

And what do you believe Rhino's role should be that makes you think hes unbalanced? Also inbalanced is not a real word, I believe the word you are looking for is imbalanced. :3

 

Rhino Prime has drawbacks of course, but drawbacks only exist when you compare them to other frames.

 

Rhino Prime's drawback is his Power Pool.

 

Now seriously though. Just what role do you think Rhino plays in the game?

his power pool is average, not low. and efficiency mods work out really well on rhino cause his iron skin is active until it's used up. stomp synergizes very well with maxed efficiency too, there's no detriment to it's function unlike on bastille for example. he got no disadvantages right now other than being a jack of all trades with no scaling specialisation.

 

Let's dive to the heart of the matter...

Why exactly is Rhino Prime's supposed speed a problem? What game altering affect does it potentially represent?

 

 

I'm not bashing, I am genuinely confused and curious...

You can PM me with that answer if you want so it's not fodder for an argument.

i don't want to argue, there's no need to worry about that. i'll repeat myself: rhino primes speed is NOT the problem. the interaction between rhino prime AND the vanguard helmet is the problem, making him faster than everyone except loki, while he has more than double the hit points, immunity to cc, a useful cc skill and a damage buff across the board, properly build even more powerful than m.prime. the game altering effect is that rhino prime currently is a frame with an aoe-nuke who's unkillable on every mission except defense/survival, and who's also the fastest frame, making him even worse than nova when it comes to rushing... which is the prevalent method of playing a large part of the game (invasions, capture, extermination, sabotage for example). also this counts for the average length of survival missions, rhino just works to well in them, negating the need to work in a team, which, in the end, is disadvantageous for the whole team (shared expirience, or the rather subjective thing that they just don't have fun).

 

also, mentioning the vanguard in masseffect... take a look at the juggernaut in ME3 and tell me rhino should be fast again.

[HolidayPi3]

Hes not tanky at all.

 

Hes as tanky as Frost inside the Snow Globe, just that he doesn't share it with anyone else but himself.

 

Valkyr and Trinity are clearly tankier since they take no damage at all.

 

Other frames can turn invisible and tank no damage at all.

 

Speed was never a benefit nor a drawback. It simply helps people move faster and keep up.

 

If you want to point out how speed helps squishier warframes dodge bullets and attacks, then I can also point out how any other warframe can do that and much better as well, just by being invisible without the need to ever be fast.

 

Reason why Rhino Prime Vanguard is fast, is not to dodge bullets but rather to run over to save allies in time.

 

Rhino Stomp to freeze all enemies while he revives an ally, Iron Skin to help Rhino endure the attacks long enough so that he can revive his ally, and his speed to help him make it to all his allies in time before they die. Just like what the Vanguard helmet suggest it does.

Rhino is tanky on a relative scale. You're taking all of these frame's main strengths and saying "Rhino has less than them!" Regardless of the fact that Rhino gets to have a generous portion of EVERY frame's main strength. The main balancing point of being strong in every category was his limited mobility, which is no longer an issue.

He is tankier than Frost in two respects-- he's immune to CC and his Iron Skin only takes what damage you get hit by. Snow Globe is big and immobile, making it take ALL damage that's anywhere near it. It sits in Napalm DOTs and melts instantly. Rhino isn't forced to sit in the DOT, and can even dodge them because he's fast now.

[Zarozian]

his power pool is average, not low. and efficiency mods work out really well on rhino cause his iron skin is active until it's used up. stomp synergizes very well with maxed efficiency too, there's no detriment to it's function unlike on bastille for example. he got no disadvantages right now other than being a jack of all trades with no scaling specialisation.

 

i don't want to argue, there's no need to worry about that. i'll repeat myself: rhino primes speed is NOT the problem. the interaction between rhino prime AND the vanguard helmet is the problem, making him faster than everyone except loki, while he has more than double the hit points, immunity to cc, a useful cc skill and a damage buff across the board, properly build even more powerful than m.prime. the game altering effect is that rhino prime currently is a frame with an aoe-nuke who's unkillable on every mission except defense/survival, and who's also the fastest frame, making him even worse than nova when it comes to rushing... which is the prevalent method of playing a large part of the game (invasions, capture, extermination, sabotage for example). also this counts for the average length of survival missions, rhino just works to well in them, negating the need to work in a team, which, in the end, is disadvantageous for the whole team (shared expirience, or the rather subjective thing that they just don't have fun).

 

also, mentioning the vanguard in masseffect... take a look at the juggernaut in ME3 and tell me rhino should be fast again.

Answer his freaking question, because I want to know too.

 

Why exactly is it a problem?

[Zarozian]

Rhino is tanky on a relative scale. You're taking all of these frame's main strengths and saying "Rhino has less than them!" Regardless of the fact that Rhino gets to have a generous portion of EVERY frame's main strength. The main balancing point of being strong in every category was his limited mobility, which is no longer an issue.

He is tankier than Frost in two respects-- he's immune to CC and his Iron Skin only takes what damage you get hit by. Snow Globe is big and immobile, making it take ALL damage that's anywhere near it. It sits in Napalm DOTs and melts instantly. Rhino isn't forced to sit in the DOT, and can even dodge them because he's fast now.

Trinity's Blessing and Valkyr's Hysteria makes both of them take no damage at all.

 

Frost has more offensive skills than Rhino hence his Snow Globe and being less tankier.

 

Only reason why you assume Rhino to be tanky is because of his Iron Skin skill, same thing with Frost and his Snow Globe.

 

If you wanna argue about armor, go look at Valkyr's armor.

 

What I think you want to argue about is not Rhino's strengths, but his utility in all situations.

 

But isn't that what DE is aiming for? Utility in all Warframes?

 

They've achieved their goal with Rhino Prime and the Vanguard Helmet then.

 

I applaud their success.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Zarozian

[Rakosta_Kai]

Nova is pure damage, Vauban is all CC. They're both glassy but relatively fast.

Rhino gets damage and utility. He's tanky, but not fast.

Now he's fast.

Rhino's drawback was his speed. Now he has that.

That's the main point of contention.

I'm afraid you are a bit mistaken...

Nova probably has the best CC in the game. casting an ability that goes through walls that puts a 50% slow on everything in the room and makes them take 200% damage AND eplode on death to do damage to enemies around them is huge.

Vauban has low armor and shields, but if played right never sees them touched anyway given the defensive strength of his abilities.

Rhino has hardcapped damage and defensive abilities (they don't scale), a group ranged damage buff and an 8 second slow with a broad range.

His only real drawback was never speed, but the fact that Iron Skin taunts mobs but doesn't scale up.

He's not balanced for low level content, but no frame that has DPS skills actually does.

 

I did find it funny that a poster with a Trinity icon compared Nova and Vauban to Rhino though.

 

I'm kinda flattered.

[Zarozian]

I'm afraid you are a bit mistaken...

Nova probably has the best CC in the game. casting an ability that goes through walls that puts a 50% slow on everything in the room and makes them take 200% damage AND eplode on death to do damage to enemies around them is huge.

Vauban has low armor and shields, but if played right never sees them touched anyway given the defensive strength of his abilities.

Rhino has hardcapped damage and defensive abilities (they don't scale), a group ranged damage buff and an 8 second slow with a broad range.

His only real drawback was never speed, but the fact that Iron Skin taunts mobs but doesn't scale up.

He's not balanced for low level content, but no frame that has DPS skills actually does.

 

I did find it funny that a poster with a Trinity icon compared Nova and Vauban to Rhino though.

 

I'm kinda flattered.

We're not tanks anymore lad.

 

We're Juggernauts now.

[HolidayPi3]

Trinity's Blessing and Valkyr's Hysteria makes both of them take no damage at all.

 

Frost has more offensive skills than Rhino hence his Snow Globe and being less tankier.

 

Only reason why you assume Rhino to be tanky is because of his Iron Skin skill, same thing with Frost and his Snow Globe.

 

If you wanna argue about armor, go look at Valkyr's armor.

Valkyr doesn't have as much shield rating as Rhino. Valkyr is limited to melee range and a crappy melee animation that's basically self CC during her invuln state. Valkyr also doesn't have mass CC that Rhino has, and Paralysis takes shields from her and has a short range.

I honestly don't think Trinity is balanced, so I won't argue on that note.

Frost's damage skills don't affect as much of an area as Rhino's stomp. Ice wave has a high enough casting time and slow enough travel speed that it's not worth using. Avalanche doesn't CC as hard as Rhino does.

Rhino also travels faster than Frost and renders snowglobe useless because he can perma freeze rooms.

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

Answer his freaking question, because I want to know too.

 

Why exactly is it a problem?

it's a problem because he's good at everything in the levelrange DE develops the game in, i really can't put it simpler

[Zarozian]

it's a problem because he's good at everything in the levelrange DE develops the game in, i really can't put it simpler

Then they have perfected him, making him as viable as Booben, which was their original goal, was it not?

[Rakosta_Kai]

We're not tanks anymore lad.

 

We're Juggernauts now.

Hate to say it, buck...

 

We are tanks.

 

Iron Skin says so. Those Bombards will still rather shoot a Rhino with it on if it's in the room than they would something else.

 

Or... We can call ourselves Juggernauts with the mutant ability to &!$$ people off. xD

Edited March 12, 2014 by Padre_Akais

[HolidayPi3]

I'm afraid you are a bit mistaken...

Nova probably has the best CC in the game. casting an ability that goes through walls that puts a 50% slow on everything in the room and makes them take 200% damage AND eplode on death to do damage to enemies around them is huge.

Vauban has low armor and shields, but if played right never sees them touched anyway given the defensive strength of his abilities.

Rhino has hardcapped damage and defensive abilities (they don't scale), a group ranged damage buff and an 8 second slow with a broad range.

His only real drawback was never speed, but the fact that Iron Skin taunts mobs but doesn't scale up.

He's not balanced for low level content, but no frame that has DPS skills actually does.

 

I did find it funny that a poster with a Trinity icon compared Nova and Vauban to Rhino though.

 

I'm kinda flattered.

I don't think Nova should have that CC to be honest. Vauban has low personal defenses as a result of his defensive powers.

I was directly quoting the OP who was stating these two frame's main strengths as a whole (damage and cc), and I was claiming that they have these strengths because they have drawbacks that suit these strengths. Rhino doesn't have drawbacks to his strengths (everywhere) anymore.

I'm using Trinity as an icon because she was given to us for free and I haven't changed it since I started playing way back when. I don't see how this has anything to do with the debate. Completely irrelevant.

Edited March 12, 2014 by HolidayPi3