Immortal Builds Pt.1 - Trinity

[Gilaros]

Hello everyone, this is the 1st part of my „immortal builds” threads, which will hopefully spark some constructive discussion and feedback about them, making the game more diverse, more challenging and more fun too! So what are these immortal builds I want to talk about?

 

Immortal builds:

In my book this refers to builds that are either through overwhelming offense or defense trivialize content. This means very little or no risk at all for a very high reward kind of gameplay. Currently the game has plenty of these builds, and I'd like to see them go cause they require no skill, offer no challenge, and creates terrible imbalance between frames/builds.

 

In the following I'll take a look at these builds which I've seen or tried and will offer a solution to them.

 

1) Trinity:

 

Overview:

Trinity's immortal build revolves around spamming Blessing and Link. With proper mods Blessing can be upkept forever, granting immunity to damage to the entire team in the entire map. Link reduces damage you take and reflects it back to 3 linked enemies. It also has the links jump to a new target when your current linked target dies. Even self damage is reflected, and with Blessing keeping you unharmed, it is common for Trinity players to abuse Link through self damaging (for example with Stug), which means you can clear entire rooms really fast without taking damage at all. Technically you could stay in one place, shoot yourself and never ever die while killing everyone and everything.

 

Solution:

Redesigning all the skills or at least chaging some of the numbers.

 

- Well of Life: Instead of marking someone, teammates staying in 10/15/20/25 meters gain life stealing for 30/35/40/45% of the damage dealt to the attacker's health, up to 150/250/350/400 health per cast for each player (both affected by power strength) for 7/9/11/13 seconds. It should fill the role of sustain heal, and could be used anytime with great effect, opposed to right now where it is only effective against bosses (and sometimes elite enemies).

 

- Energy Vampire:  Instead of marking someone, nearby teammates gain 5/10/15/20 energy (can not be increased) per pulse (4 pulses total), while nearby enemies take 5/10/15/20% (can be increased with power strength) extra damage  from all sources in 10/15/20/25 meters for 7/9/11/13 seconds. Trinity can not gain energy from this skill.

 

- Link: Remove the ability to reflect self damage. This ability will now serve as a form of damage mitigation, with a bit of a dps boost. 

 

- Link (alternative): Links teammates in 10/15/20/25 meters (scales with power range) for 6/8/10/12 seconds (scales with power duration), reducing damage taken by 5/10/15/20% (can not be increased) making it shared and even on everyone. Note: This would make this skill pure support.

 

- Blessing: Invulnerability for 1/2/3/4 seconds (can not be increased), restores full shield and health, adds 25/30/35/40% damage reduction (can not be increased) in 10/15/20/25 meters (scales with power range) for 3/5/7/10 seconds (scales with power duration).

Note: Damage reduction does not stack with Link (or it could stack with Link (alternative)).

 

What would these changes mean?

With these changes Trinity becomes the health care center of the cell. Being around Trinity means healing (both sustained and spike), energy regen and reduced damage. She would fulfill the pure support role perfectly (especially with the alternative Link idea), while all her skills would serve a distinct role.

 

What are your thoughts about my idea? Do you have a different solution? Or maybe a different problem? Please do share, and thank you for reading it!

Edited May 13, 2014 by Gilaros

[Lady_Khaos]

Why change WoL and Energy Vamp? That combo is a powerful damage dealer, assuming you can time it right. And it's great as is.

[Gilaros]

That is a valid point, I totally forgot about that. The main issue I see with WoL and EV is that they are very situational skills, they can shine against bosses/elite units, especially with the combo you mentioned, however they are pretty much useless against anything else. Mobs die way too fast to grant enough energy regen or enough health (and quite frankly perma blessing takes care of the healing aspect of WoL making it only useful for damage dealing combo). Making them dependant on Trinity, not the mobs makes these skills useful in nearly any situation, and while the extra damage I proposed to EV is probalby not as much as the current combo can deal it is still a fairly nice boost.  

[Shadebain]

I like the suggested changes, as invulnerability builds are incredibly broken, but instead of reworking 1 and 2, combine them into one move, and give her a new 1 or 2 (depending on which one was removed to be combined into the other) that is a better, more reliable support skill.

[Gilaros]

I like the suggested changes, as invulnerability builds are incredibly broken, but instead of reworking 1 and 2, combine them into one move, and give her a new 1 or 2 (depending on which one was removed to be combined into the other) that is a better, more reliable support skill.

 

If I were to combine them into one skill, I'd certainly lower the numbers to don't make it way too powerful for a 1st/2nd, but with low numbers it would be useless again. What new skill do you have in mind for Trinity though?

 

I think that Well should be radial around Trin and E-Vamp should give the team vampirism. Just makes more flavor sense.

But I like these ideas a lot otherwise. Simple and effective at fixing her.

 

That is exactly what I meant, I'll correct my wording right away

[Zkorp]

40% damage reduction on blessing ? You know that you'll get 1 shot by level 230 ancient or whatever ?

What happens if you do that is simply baring the way to 1 hours + actual type of possible games. The problem is that a lot of players like that and more importantly play that actually.

 

I'm not against any revamp, but if you limit the content actually doable in the game, what will happen ?

[Sekcbaba]

if preventing 1 hour + defense / survival is the price to pay for getting rid of perma invulnerability, id gladly take it.  Those game modes should really be intended as a push it until you cant handle it thing... and there is obviously a point (getting one shot) where it becomes basically impossible to handle.  But thats ok, then the long duration times people get would actually mean they played well rather than just had a trinity in group giving them god mode the entire time.

[(PSN)friedricetheman]

It's not perma invisibility. Have you guys ever played Trinity?

The casting animation is 3 seconds long.

And 3 seconds is a long time when you are facing down level 50 heavy gunners.

Especially with her 15 armor...

[5stareraser]

Hater back off !!!

[(PSN)Skarpar]

It's not perma invisibility. Have you guys ever played Trinity?

The casting animation is 3 seconds long.

And 3 seconds is a long time when you are facing down level 50 heavy gunners.

Especially with her 15 armor...

Use of natural talent drops that cast time to make it extra spammable :-D

[(PSN)friedricetheman]

Use of natural talent drops that cast time to make it extra spammable :-D

It shaves off 1 second. Natural Talent at maxed only gives 50% speed reduction.

It's still 2 seconds. You get 1 shot to death in less than 2 seconds with your 15 armor and no shield/health mods as building a blessings/link trinity with natural talent leaves you no space for other mods.

Think about it.

1. Blessings

2. Link

3. Natural Talent

4. Narrow minded

5. Constitution

6. Continuity

7. Stretch

8. Overextended

9. Fleeting expertise

10. Streamline

There is absolutely no space for any shield/health mods.

You will get killed in less than 1 second with this setup. It's high risk, high reward.

Go do the math.

Edited April 9, 2014 by (PS4)friedricetheman

[Gilaros]

40% damage reduction on blessing ? You know that you'll get 1 shot by level 230 ancient or whatever ?

What happens if you do that is simply baring the way to 1 hours + actual type of possible games. The problem is that a lot of players like that and more importantly play that actually.

 

I'm not against any revamp, but if you limit the content actually doable in the game, what will happen ?

 

I think this is an entire different issue that certainly warrants a discussion as well. In short the way I see is that the issue is with the content that it requires a certain frame with a certain build to be doable. Difficulty should not increase in such a way that being invincible is the only way to do it. Harder difficulty should mean that it takes more skillful gameplay, better team cordination to be doable, in my book at least.

 

It's not perma invisibility. Have you guys ever played Trinity?

The casting animation is 3 seconds long.

And 3 seconds is a long time when you are facing down level 50 heavy gunners.

Especially with her 15 armor...

 

I never stayed longer than 40 minutes so I'm not entirely sure how chaotic is it later on, but what I would do is check the timer of Blessing, and when I'm near its end, go into cover and recast it there.

[Onihikage]

A good Trinity can currently keep their eye on their timer and maintain safe distance to an "out" where they can recast Blessing behind cover. If the team has a Loki spamming Radial Disarm, and stays in relatively small rooms, they can keep that up forever. Know what can't be kept up forever? Damage output. Eventually the enemies just plain have too much health to be killed quickly enough for Oxygen drops, and that's when you have to leave. I posted my own thread on a Trinity overhaul here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/208551-how-to-nerf-balance-trinity-without-making-her-useless/

[Psychus]

40% damage reduction on blessing ? You know that you'll get 1 shot by level 230 ancient or whatever ?

What happens if you do that is simply baring the way to 1 hours + actual type of possible games. The problem is that a lot of players like that and more importantly play that actually.

 

I'm not against any revamp, but if you limit the content actually doable in the game, what will happen ?

What content limiting? Nobody's stopping you from doing it. It's still entirely capable of being done. You just can't laugh and ignore damage. You have to use this thing, dunno if you know what it's called. I hear people use it to deal with difficult content in games. Oh, if only someone could remember the word!

[Dewnin]

+1  I mainly play trinity and I very much like your redesign Gilaros.  I'm a fairly new player, so when I first got her I had a bunch of useless(non-duration) mods on her and had a blast playing Trinity.  With a better, proper, Blessing build I have to say she seems much less enjoyable.  Stronger certainly, but only because I'm immune to damage all the time.

 

I don't think you were really intended to last 1-2 hours in survival missions.  the fact that you get to see lvl 300 enemies makes me think so.  Like with endless defense, you normally get forced out by the content scaling into impossibility, with trin+nekros you get forced out by exhuastion.

 

My input~

Previously I suggested a version of WoL that would turn trin into the well, making her hard to hurt and release healing pulses while being unable to do anything(you asked for other solutions).

The lifesteal version is also agreat way to make it a viable #1.  I might downtweak the % of damage vamp-ed and increase the max life healed, to spread it out a bit more.  Really though, that would need to be tested in game to have a good idea for the feel of it, so ~( '-')~

 

Energy Vampire not effecting Trinity would greatly reduce it's viability for solo.  Possible change would be to cause the same radial damage weakness debuff, but have energy pulses come off any enemies that are killed while under the effect of the debuff?(this might make it too strong in swarm-y maps with a party, honestly)

 

I've been a supporter of a % based blessing for a while, and I think your changes would put it back in balance with the game perfectly.

Just in the interest of being a nerd, another version and more complete departure from the original blessing;  It could give a proto-shield based overshield(like Rhinos ferrite version, but with a somewhat lower base number), and improve attack speed+damage+sprint speed by a small %(something like 20% at max level?).  I like this idea because it would give Trin's ult more of a 'support' feeling, rather than pure healer.

 

(P.S. let me apologize for the wall of text there.  I get a little ramble-y)

Edited April 9, 2014 by Dewnin

[Zkorp]

The problem is : when you know the game, have a good team, good stuff (6 formas synapse/5 boltor etc...) the game begin to be "fun" after 40 minutes/waves (survival/defense). 55 minutes begin to be challenging, after 1 hour it begin to get mad (this happen quicker on T3 obviously)...

 

The trinity's blessing is here, no nerf for her since months, so  I think that it's intended from DE to let this frame as it is for people who like to go farther in this way.

 

Anyway can you get to the high end of any PvE MMO without a healer ? actually the answer is No... Same here, and as the mobs are what they are no heal, even instant one can save you from the enormous damages they all do when you reach this point.

 

I also admit that it will be more challenging and more rewarding to reach that "endgame" without this blessing (I have done a lot of "challenge" without trinity). But the devs have let this Trinity blessing ingame, so what can we do ?

[Gilaros]

+1  I mainly play trinity and I very much like your redesign Gilaros.  I'm a fairly new player, so when I first got her I had a bunch of useless(non-duration) mods on her and had a blast playing Trinity.  With a better, proper, Blessing build I have to say she seems much less enjoyable.  Stronger certainly, but only because I'm immune to damage all the time.

 

I don't think you were really intended to last 1-2 hours in survival missions.  the fact that you get to see lvl 300 enemies makes me think so.  Like with endless defense, you normally get forced out by the content scaling into impossibility, with trin+nekros you get forced out by exhuastion.

 

My input~

Previously I suggested a version of WoL that would turn trin into the well, making her hard to hurt and release healing pulses while being unable to do anything(you asked for other solutions).

The lifesteal version is also agreat way to make it a viable #1.  I might downtweak the % of damage vamp-ed and increase the max life healed, to spread it out a bit more.  Really though, that would need to be tested in game to have a good idea for the feel of it, so ~( '-')~

 

Energy Vampire not effecting Trinity would greatly reduce it's viability for solo.  Possible change would be to cause the same radial damage weakness debuff, but have energy pulses come off any enemies that are killed while under the effect of the debuff?(this might make it too strong in swarm-y maps with a party, honestly)

 

I've been a supporter of a % based blessing for a while, and I think your changes would put it back in balance with the game perfectly.

Just in the interest of being a nerd, another version and more complete departure from the original blessing;  It could give a proto-shield based overshield(like Rhinos ferrite version, but with a somewhat lower base number), and improve attack speed+damage+sprint speed by a small %(something like 20% at max level?).  I like this idea because it would give Trin's ult more of a 'support' feeling, rather than pure healer.

 

(P.S. let me apologize for the wall of text there.  I get a little ramble-y)

Energy Vampire's bonus damage would effect Trinity only the energy gain not, for the sheer reason that she could increase her energy that way, meaning it is a skill that is up 100% of the time for no cost. Being a support frame I believe she should be the most effective in a group fo 4 and least effective in solo. Extra shield for Blessing and some other perks sound good, I can definitely picture it being a viable option (side note: I like Onihikage's Blessing idea too). Numbers are of course a subject to change, it would require lots of testing to find the middle way.

 

The problem is : when you know the game, have a good team, good stuff (6 formas synapse/5 boltor etc...) the game begin to be "fun" after 40 minutes/waves (survival/defense). 55 minutes begin to be challenging, after 1 hour it begin to get mad (this happen quicker on T3 obviously)...

 

The trinity's blessing is here, no nerf for her since months, so  I think that it's intended from DE to let this frame as it is for people who like to go farther in this way.

 

Anyway can you get to the high end of any PvE MMO without a healer ? actually the answer is No... Same here, and as the mobs are what they are no heal, even instant one can save you from the enormous damages they all do when you reach this point.

 

I also admit that it will be more challenging and more rewarding to reach that "endgame" without this blessing (I have done a lot of "challenge" without trinity). But the devs have let this Trinity blessing ingame, so what can we do ?

I find this to be an issue with the content not Trinity herself. I hope for an endgame where the difficulty won't be about hard hitting enemies with enormous HP pools but special tactics for each fight/mode. She is clearly broken, you can just tell by the amount of suggestions that have been made about her, and I'm sure the devs will eventually change her to be a lot more balanced, because right now she is god mode. 

 

If I understand correctly challenge means more fun for you, but how is being vulnerable for 3 sec every 30 sec is challenging? It would be a lot harder to stay on your toe if you were vulnerable all the time (thus more fun?).

[Zkorp]

look at the last part of my sentences : I say that's it's more challenging and rewarding without her.

also I admit that it make you play badly : youre becoming lazy to dodge incoming threats, that's end by a brutal stupid death if the trin mess with her power (it's happen). But she's here and her blessing untouched since forever, it make me think that's it's the intended gameplay wished by the game designers... Nothing more.

[GTG3000]

Why change WoL and Energy Vamp? That combo is a powerful damage dealer, assuming you can time it right. And it's great as is.

 Because Trin shouldn't need damage powers. And didn't need them before Link nerf.

[Dewnin]

I can see where Zkorp and Gilaros are coming from.  and I'd like to take a sec to point out that your reaction seems to be pretty common Zkorp. basically, it's not really fun but it's the only way to go 2hours+ in survival.  Trinity is essentially a necessary evil.  And I just basically disagree, going to 2hours+ isn't something we should really be doing in the first place(lvl 350 enemies? say WAAT?). and my emotional attachment to the Frame makes me want to see her become a fun and engaging member of the team.

 

on the other hand, I don't think survival is necessarily endgame content.  Currently survival and defense are the- (gonna take juust a second to acknowledge the fact I'm getting off topic, but difficulty and game modes are relevent in how they relate to Trinity and how the frame interacts with the rest of the the game content) -only game modes that can really provide a decent challenge for players with the strongest weapons and mods, precisely -because- they scale enemy stat numbers infinitely into space until you get swarms of invincible 1-shotting monsters.  We've seen with both Hijack and Interception that DE can produce difficult 'endgame' mission types that interact much less toxically with trinity.

IMO survival and defense were really intended to go only to about 20-40 mins/waves, and in that space they are....perhaps more difficult than extermination, but not unreasonable.

so, roundabout way of saying that probably old mission types could use a re-polish.  but Trinity is able to trivialize content that, in all rights, should really be impossible.  It would pain me greatly to see future mission types and content designed around subverting trinity's...shall we say extreme effect on her squad.  One of the great things about Warframe is the varied abilities of all the frames, and that you can still run almost any mission with nearly any squad of four.  I feel Trinity needs to be modified to fit back into that gameplay aesthetic.

 

In my mind, I imagine that Trinity(along with the other frames that are too strong, too weak, or too -something- in certain circumstances) IS in queue to be rebalanced, the question is exactly What they're gonna do to it(sadly DE is not a hivemind, so I'm sure there is/would be some debate).  So, hopefully we're doing the game a service by discussing our thoughts and ideas on her. 

 

P.S. again a wall of text. the TL:DR version is that Trinity is OP, and it could potentially effect balance of new content. that's bad.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Dewnin

[Gilaros]

I pretty much agree with you, we can hope that DE will balance Trinity along with other frames which posses similar powers (shameless self-advertising, part 2 of immortal builds coming up tomorrow), and endgame won't be built around what survival/defense is at the moment. She's an awesome frame, one of my favourites, being a big fan of support playstyle, I'd hate to see her being stuck in a Blessing/Link/Stug spamming role.  

[(PSN)sithcamaro]

I can see where Zkorp and Gilaros are coming from.  and I'd like to take a sec to point out that your reaction seems to be pretty common Zkorp. basically, it's not really fun but it's the only way to go 2hours+ in survival.  Trinity is essentially a necessary evil.  And I just basically disagree, going to 2hours+ isn't something we should really be doing in the first place(lvl 350 enemies? say WAAT?). and my emotional attachment to the Frame makes me want to see her become a fun and engaging member of the team.

 

 

If we "shouldn't" be going that far, then clearly DE would have an end to those types of missions.

40 waves defense

60 minutes survival

Congrats! You've killed all the enemies, mission over!

But it doesn't do that. Therefore, that's why it's there. Challenge yourself to see how far you can go, using the options we've given you!

[Zkorp]

sithcamaro is right : it's here, it's the content for advanced frame. How far can we reach, how long can we survive ? In fact when you're stuffed it stay the only thing that matter. Other actual missions type arent interresting at all.

 

So we have to use what DE gave us in order to reach that point... sadly ?