A Possible Solution To Melee's Lack Of Range

[Lorane_Airwing]

While melee is LEAGUES more viable now than it ever was before. It currently lacks the range and mobility offered by gun play. After all, why run up to an enemy to him him a few times, when you can shoot him from 50 feet away. Better blocking has greatly improved melee combat as we no longer need to take damage while approaching enemies, however upon reaching them we need to be able to KILL them. The combo system is something that helps in this however we first need to get in quite a few swings on a high level enemy before our combo will do enough damage.

 

 

My proposal? Why not make reflected damage connected to combos! This change would include 3 minor changes to the new melee system to make blocking and combos work together to make closing the distance much more important.

 

 

A) Melee has innate damage reflection of 10%, yes this is very small but it is important, as reflecting bullets plays a key roll in the next two changes. The reflection melee mod would still play an important roll improving the damage of reflected bullets.

 

 

B) Reflected bullets can be AIMED, if an enemy is in your cross hair the damage from the bullets will be directed towards them. Otherwise the damage is reflected back at the enemy firing at you. We are robot space ninjas, being able to reflect the bullets from a heavy gunner to kill all the poor lancers around her would be both awesome, and with the next change....

 

C) reflected bullets count towards your combo. While the exact numbers of just how much it will count towards your combo need to be properly balanced. Having reflected bullets count towards your combo as 1/10 of a hit would mean melee is much more viable in large fire fights. Being able to reflect bullets at specific enemies before using the newly built up combo from closing the distance to those enemies to cut them to pieces.

 

 

 

 

Currently the new melee system is the most fun when hacking apart infested, all because of several key factors: Infested swarm you easily getting into melee range, There are LOTS of infested meaning you get a very high combo, and lastly with no gunfire infested leave little reason not to get up close and hack away at them. The grineer and corpus obviously do not have these three aspects due to their design being more gun-play oriented. Grineer and corpus are often in small groups meaning combos easily break while moving between them. Grineer and corpus also prefer to hide behind objects and play defensively; While this is smarter than the infestations charge and overwhelm strategy, it leaves melee players wandering from chest-high-wall to chest-high-wall in search of combo fodder. Allowing Melee players to aim their reflected bullets as well as gain combo from them solves two of these issues. Players can keep combos from group to group by reflecting bullets on approach. Secondly the fact grineer and corpus units hide behind walls and fire would still aid melee players by providing bullets they can use to reflect at exposed units. These changes allow players to no longer lose combos as easily, but also need to pay attention to their stamina to maintain blocking and reflection of bullets.

 

 

 

 

TL;DR: all weapons have 10% bullet deflection, deflection is aim-able, and deflection counts towards your combo. This allows melee players to close the gap while growing a combo, as well as maintaining it between groups of gun using enemies.

 

 

 

Thoughts?

[MrJxt]

me gusta

[(PSN)korm-2_0]

But.. Melee weapons are supposed to be for close range (With a few exceptions) 

 

EDIT : But seems pretty good.

Edited April 15, 2014 by (PS4)korm-2_0

[Archistopheles]

It currently lacks the range and mobility offered by gun play.

 

Oh right, the Gorgon-coptering that everyone's been talking about.

 

You need melee mobility other than coptering?

 

Two viable options: Glaive/Kestral

 

Or

 

Sprint -> Slide -> Jump -> Melee attack

 

Congratulations, with most weapons, you've just gap-closed and knocked-down your target.

[Worira]

They need at least 100% bullet deflection damage at base, really. Enemies tend to be more durable but less damaging than players. Other than that, I like the idea, especially the GIVE ME SHIELD FROM DARKSECTOR BACK DE PLEASE I NEED IT

[Lorane_Airwing]

Oh right, the Gorgon-coptering that everyone's been talking about.

 

You need melee mobility other than coptering?

 

Two viable options: Glaive/Kestral

 

Or

 

Sprint -> Slide -> Jump -> Melee attack

 

Congratulations, with most weapons, you've just gap-closed and knocked-down your target.

 

Coptering certainly does offer lots of range closing advantages, but where does it leave you in a tower 3 survival surrounded by enemies? Yes you have closed the range, but now to do damage and kill enemies you need to build a combo to start killing them quickly, unless you brought a trinity to keep you blessed while getting shot at for 6 or so seconds hacking at an enemy. Basically I'm saying: Yes you can close the distance, but is there a reason to if you are just going to be killed because you jumped into a meat grinder without being able to hurt any of the enemies before being downed?

 

Glaive and kestral are more unique melee weapons that have built in range so they are a bit more difficult to discuss and come up with a proper response to. Does the glaive/kestral gain combo damage from being thrown? Or do the combos die out before the glaive returns? I've never used it before in melee 2.0 should be an interesting experiment.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Lorane_Airwing

[LikeABawsh]

You have a gun for ranged combat. I don't think there is really a "ranged melee" problem at all. It's one or the other, not both.

[Lorane_Airwing]

You have a gun for ranged combat. I don't think there is really a "ranged melee" problem at all. It's one or the other, not both.

I'm not quite certain ranged melee is the proper way to describe it. I'm basically trying to outline a system where grineer and corpus are as fun to fight in melee as infestation. Yes you can reflect bullets back at enemies to grow a combo however the reflected bullets are not affected by the combo multiplier. you COULD sit there reflecting bullets, but it would pointless. Unless you decided to run in and finally attack the enemies. Grow your combo properly as reflecting bullets only counts for a 10th or so of a melee hit, not only that but also requires the stamina to reflect.

[Starender]

good idea, and not very hard to code i supose

 

would render melee 2.0 even better

[SethAshcroft]

I'm not quite certain ranged melee is the proper way to describe it. I'm basically trying to outline a system where grineer and corpus are as fun to fight in melee as infestation. Yes you can reflect bullets back at enemies to grow a combo however the reflected bullets are not affected by the combo multiplier. you COULD sit there reflecting bullets, but it would pointless. Unless you decided to run in and finally attack the enemies. Grow your combo properly as reflecting bullets only counts for a 10th or so of a melee hit, not only that but also requires the stamina to reflect.

 

Firstly, honestly I think this idea would not be as effective as you think it would be, and also that it is a poor idea at the start. I would have to reflect 10 bullets to even add one hit to my counter, and unless I am literally surrounded and reflecting all possible bullets, at no point is this really an expedient way to gain hits to my combo counter. Not to mention, reflecting/blocking already requires stamina.

 

Secondly, there is plenty of mobility to melee already. Coptering was actually improved, and I fly further than ever with Melee 2.0 in effect. Combined with quick reflexes, knowing my reach, and precise judgement, carrying combos across entire rooms of Infested, Grineer, or Corpus, is hardly an issue at all. Not to mention, many weapon stance such as Swirling Tiger have absolutely no issue building up the combo meter as they have extremely quick multi-hit strikes. If you feel you don't have enough reach still, then either swap for a glaive, kestrel, or the Glaive Prime, or ultimately melee combat just might not be your thing. After all, the idea of Melee 2.0 was to make melee combat a viable option, not to make everyone and their mother suddenly throw themselves at the idea of only using melee weapons. Some people prefer guns, and sometimes guns will be more effective. That's how the game, and even reality, is.

 

Thirdly, the Glaive and Kestrel can be thrown and returned before the combo meter dies out, provided you do it correctly. Another idea of melee combat being improved would be that high skill would be rewarded by the combo meter, and essentially allowing an extremely easy (and lazy) way to build the combo meter would entirely defeat the point of implementing it in the first place: to reward skill.

 

In further, after reading your comments a little more carefully, it's becoming a growing feeling that you have not tested any of these claims out as much as you'd like use to believe. I have jumped into a group of 10 or more enemies consisting of fusion moas, heavy gunners, and so on, and survived easily. The key is being geared and built for it. If you build an Ember or a Nova to not have boosted shields or health and you aren't running Guardian on your sentinel or Life Strike on your weapon, what on earth are you doing in the middle of that many enemies anyway? I run either Excal or Ash built around melee combat, with sprint and stamina regeneration mods to get the most out of movement and blocking/attacking, and my Glaive Prime is built with Jagged Edge, Pressure Point, Fury, Focus Energy + another element to combat whatever faction I'm facing, as well as Whirlwind to get massive reach and speed out of throwing it, and Life Strike combined with Killing Blow to return as much health as possible when I channel to restore my health, should I take any damage. Playing as Ash or Excal, I Smoke Screen or Radial Blind as necessary to prevent excess damage.

 

The above stated, not every frame is going to excel in melee combat as much as all of the others and will have to take different precautions in order to succeed. If that wasn't the case and no one had to prepare for strategy before just jumping in and destroying everything (which is why there's such an instinctive hatred for Nova players) then the game would be extremely easy and extremely boring for many people, which is something I'm pretty sure a large amount of the community does not want. Sure, annihilating everyone easily and being an untouchable ninja god sounds cool, but without a challenge, things get boring quickly.

 

Adding to all this, making the act of reflecting bullets a viable form of damage (reflecting full damage back at enemies) would be devastating to the balance of the game. Add a maxed Quick Rest mod to your warframe, and you would take little-to-no damage the entire time, while absolutely annihilating all of your enemies simply by standing in a corner and blocking, not even counting the idea of bullets being amplified by the combo counter.

 

EDIT: P.S. Coding all of this would likely be a lot harder than you think it actually is.

Edited April 15, 2014 by YeahMyNameIsEvan

[Lorane_Airwing]

-snip-

 

As stated in the OP, balancing would of course need to be done, 1/10th of a combo per bullet was given as an example. Not as the definitive "DO THIS" option. Reflecting and blocking already costs stamina yes, that was not a change I outlined, merely stating that this system would not let players just sit reflecting/growing a combo forever off one enemy. Their stamina would run out and they would be unable to reflect grow said combo.

 

I've already stated the viability of coptering. Even than the combo counter itself seems very short lived. The only time I've seen 2x has been on infested and only infested. I'm going off my experience here on this one. yeah there is probably a way to do it better. Yes i am probably S#&$ at melee, but oh well. Warframe in itself barely rewards skill vs dps however that is a larger issue in itself.

 

Ah that is good to know that the glaive can combo with charge/thrown attacks.

 

Again, this was given as an example, but i am not going to shy away from this. You are right here, at no point should a low shield low health player, not at all built to be able to do that find it easy. However i still feel it's not a matter of skill and more a matter of build. Mods equipped does not always accurately describe player skill merely how much they have either grinded or traded for said mods. It's stupid and barely takes true player skill into account. Hell at least you build per faction, I've forgotten about that and just used corrosive or the next rainbow build. I've lost a care for skill myself which is why I've just been exploiting trinity builds, the game is grind and dps. If you want to reward skill than explain your own idea how you can make this better instead of simply tearing it down. Not every frame is perfect for melee, this is why i came up with this idea. Not everyone runs a maxed iron skin rhino or blessing build trinity. Being able to build a combo before diving into a fray would at least allow players who PREFER playing ember or nova ( or any other squishy frame for that matter ) to play melee.

 

As for quick-rest + reflect. You can already do this. This would have nothing to do with my own post as the reflection mod already allows you to sit in a corner reflecting with stamina regen. The only difference is the game currently just reflects the bullets back at the enemies that fired them. It was entertaining for the first 20 minutes or so before going back to mashing E.

 

Talking from experience here or? From what i understand you would need to link whatever function they use for reflection with the already existing combo functions. Only issue i'd see is if the combo function expects an integer and not a float/double for the input of how far along a combo is. I'm heading to college for C++ stuff and going into microcontroller programming so I'm hoping my own knowledge here is valid.

 

 

 

Again, if you want to chip in feel free. I want this to grow and be altered for the better. If you want this to reward player skill more tell me HOW it could reward player skill more, not just shoot the idea down.

[SethAshcroft]

It may seem like I'm just shooting it down, but nothing about simply reflecting bullets to build combos is skill rewarding. It's just a lazy way to do things, and that's that.

 

Also, having all frames be inherently as good as all others at melee would totally devalue to rate at which frames like Ash, Rhino, Loki, and others have melee-enhancing abilities that allow them to excel. If Ember and Nova were suddenly able to excel in melee combat as much as other frames, while also retaining their room-nuking abilities, then they would truly become overpowered. It would require balancing far more than just the melee system.

 

As for your exploitation of Trinity's abilities, that is a choice you make. The game, in normal content (not including trying to go as far as possible in endless survivals, defense, etc.) does not exactly force you to play one way or another. Sure, you can build for a faction, but you don't have to. Sure, you can be lazy and go with a rainbow build, but you're given the option to customize as you like. To even suggest the idea of normalizing all of the frames' level of effectiveness on even one mechanic of the game is just insulting to all the options of customization we are constantly handed. They might not be unlimited, but it would be insulting nonetheless.

 

Also, I see 2x melee damage bonus against all factions quite often. Maybe it's because I'm adept at melee. Maybe it's because I prefer my melee weapon over my guns. Maybe it's because I try hard enough. Whatever the case, it certainly is not because it is impossible or even that difficult. If you can possibly admit the idea that you may just not be that competent at melee combat, then why not just fully admit it? Don't call for a rebalance of the system or added functions to make it easier for you. Perhaps you just aren't cut out for it, and that's totally okay. I have a friend who seeks melee combat as a last resort and prefers firearms as his primary offense. To top it off, he's a Rhino, a frame that could easily excel in melee combat. I have another friend who also mains Rhino and is the complete opposite, completely excelling in combo execution, retaining the combo meter, and weaving in and out of combat. There's nothing wrong with one of them being better at one thing than the other, but if one of them decided to call for easier methods for whichever method of combat they found themselves lacking in, I'd give them a dirty look. It's just unfounded and selfish.

 

Also, as I said before, being unable to block when you reach zero stamina is ALREADY a mechanic. It cancels your block the moment you hit zero. Also, reflected bullet damage really doesn't do enough damage quickly enough to be a viable form of damage-dealing, and I don't think it ever should be, because again, it would just simply be lazy and boring, as you already pointed out partially.

 

I know from experience that tying more forms of code and events to already existing combos and also applying more reflective physics (which by the way the glaive bouncing physics are... not the best) and trying to fine tune them would likely take a considerable amount of time, and not to mention likely create more bugs and issues than it'd really be worth. Again, as I've said many times before, the function is also just... really it's just completely lazy as a method of damage and combo-boosting. I don't see how anyone would really get any enjoyment out of it or how it would really help the game at all.

 

I do agree that the delay before your combo is cancelled could be extended by a small amount, or we could at least be given some sort of timer or visual indication of how long until the combo expired which would make it easier to manage, but I honestly don't think that the melee 2.0 system really needs that much improved to it. There's always the issue of weapon speeds, and so on, but again, if you have hard numbers as stats and you're playing to do the most damage as possible or to be effective, you're going to prioritize building for the occasion and capitalizing on damage before everything else.

 

Mainly what I'm saying for a lot of this is that you can't have it all and have it be fun. If you had everything easily accessible, doable, and so on, if nothing was really a challenge, then half of the community would not have stuck around. The only thing I think that could be improved upon is the variety of combos, as it seems like many combos are somewhat same-ish currently, but the system is brand new. Also, I think there should be a tad more variety for builds. There's builds based on life-steal that cost more in energy, builds based on elemental damage, builds for speed, builds for crit, builds for constant channeling, but in the case of attack speed boosts, mods like Quickening do not trade enough attack speed for the massive energy increase in channeling. I think it would be interesting to trade very small amounts of pure damage for attack speed, which could help players like you who (seem to, at least) get more enjoyment out of seeing the combo count climb than anything else. If all you're looking for is melee to somehow be more effective than guns, or to be easier than it is, then I have no real suggestions for that at the moment, as everything that's been brought up would simply dull the system more than anything.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

A light skim of the OP seems to suggest these are good ideas but don't actually solve the issue of getting to the enemy before your allies kill them.

[Erwartz]

A light skim of the OP seems to suggest these are good ideas but don't actually solve the issue of getting to the enemy before your allies kill them.

Why is getting to the enemy before your allies kill them even an issue to you? You have a short-ranged weapon while your ally has a long-ranged weapon. Guess who's going to kill the enemy first?

[Lorane_Airwing]

Why is getting to the enemy before your allies kill them even an issue to you? You have a short-ranged weapon while your ally has a long-ranged weapon. Guess who's going to kill the enemy first?

This is a larger problem people were pointing out before melee 2.0 was released. Even now i still feel guilty shooting things near meleeing players. I feel like I'm crushing their fun and instead break off from the group so I'm not ruining their enjoyment of the game. I made this post to deal with the issues of combo chaining between disjointed groups of enemies as well as preparing to jump into a fray of enemies. I am unsure of how to correct this particular "i shot the thing you were going to stab before you got to it" issue sadly.