Mod Fusion Is Still A Little... Overboard.

[xathil]

Literally ALL my mods and cores to fuse into ONE mod.. and it cant even hit level 10. That and the 700k credit price tag.

[lilme3333]

Matching the symbols in the top right corners and duplicates is the intended way to fuse.At that level using anything but a duplicate or fusion core is a waste

Edited April 2, 2013 by lilme3333

[xathil]

Just making a point:I cant even get ONE rank 10 mod with ALL the cores and mods I own. THE ENTIRETY of all I've collected.. in 100+ hours of play. :P

Edited April 2, 2013 by xathil

[Tyrian3k]

He might have wasted credits, but in the ideal case you need to use 1023 identical mods, which each cost 300/600/900 credits depending on rarity.

In other words it still results in 300k/600k/900k credits to bring a mod to level 10.

Fusion cores are probably more efficient in the cases of upgrading rare mods, but it will still be very expensive.

The problem isn't the price,though, it is the amount of fusion cores/mods you need.

[Gaiters]

You don't want all of your mods maxed anyway, you can't fit them all on, also, the max is supposed to be hard to get, because once you hit it you can scratch that card off of your list.

Edited April 2, 2013 by ZEDD

[xathil]

He might have wasted credits, but in the ideal case you need to use 1023 identical mods, which each cost 300/600/900 credits depending on rarity.

In other words it still results in 300k/600k/900k credits to bring a mod to level 10.

Fusion cores are probably more efficient in the cases of upgrading rare mods, but it will still be very expensive.

The problem isn't the price,though, it is the amount of fusion cores/mods you need.

This is what I'm getting at. Its the sheer amount thats pretty crazy. I can dump in ALL my fusion cores AND ALL my mods and still not get one to 10. I know its meant to be endgame but its still pretty extreme when 100+ hours of play cant even max out one.

[Notso]

No, but 100 hours can easily make all your mods very good, rather than make one mod maxed. To max a mod, espeicially one where max level is 10, should take forever.

[lilme3333]

So what I'm getting here (please correct me if I'm wrong) is you know you're doing it wrong but dont care because it should be at a certain point based on the sheer number of mods you're using?

What exactly do you propose?

[HvcTerr]

Can someone explain why this happens?

I can choose two mods to combine, and A+B != B+A.

Not only that, but, even ignoring credit costs, combining (A+A+A+A) != (A+A)+(A+A)

I'm too afraid to do any fusion now, because I have no clue which order-of-operations are going to screw me over...

Here's a screenshot.

[Tyrian3k]

So what I'm getting here (please correct me if I'm wrong) is you know you're doing it wrong but dont care because it should be at a certain point based on the sheer number of mods you're using?

What exactly do you propose?

I already addressed that point in my last post. Regardless of how you go at it, upgrading a mod to level 10 costs an insane amount of credits and fusion cores/mods, even if you're doing it right.

What he suggests is reducing the amount of mods/cores needed to upgrade on higher mod levels.

Can someone explain why this happens?

One level 1 mod gives you less fusion energy than 2 level 0 mods. In other words: The energy saved in the level 1 mod is bigger than the energy you get for using it as fusion material.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Tyrian3k

[Cakes]

The process, if you don't take shortcuts to rush a mod to Rank 10, isn't that overboard since you gather the credits and components over time.

If someone does what the OP did, aka dump everything including the kitchen sink into a single mod, then yes, its overboard because your actions were overboard.

[Tyrian3k]

The process, if you don't take shortcuts to rush a mod to Rank 10, isn't that overboard since you gather the credits and components over time.

We're talking about possibly hundreds of hours of pure gaming just to achieve that goal. Sry, but I can't see that as a good argument...

[xathil]

No, but 100 hours can easily make all your mods very good, rather than make one mod maxed. To max a mod, espeicially one where max level is 10, should take forever.

My question is: should it take 100+ hours of playing to max a single mod to 10. Thats the issue im getting at.

The process, if you don't take shortcuts to rush a mod to Rank 10, isn't that overboard since you gather the credits and components over time.

If someone does what the OP did, aka dump everything including the kitchen sink into a single mod, then yes, its overboard because your actions were overboard.

Why is even CONSIDERING it overboard? How many hours does it take you to max a warframe? How many hours does it take to max out a weapon? If it takes me 20 hours to max a frame, 30 hours to max a weapon, is it reasonable that a mod takes well over 100 hours? It costs 15k per part + 25-35k for the main bp to craft a frame. similar kinds of numbers for weapons yet mods are quite different.

It costs 32 mods to make a rank 5. It costs 2048 for a rank 10. Do rank 10 mods drop 64 times more often than mods that max at rank 5? Then is it really reasonable to expect to fuse 1024 identical mods for the last level?

Edited April 2, 2013 by xathil

[Cakes]

My question is: should it take 100+ hours of playing to max a single mod to 10. Thats the issue im getting at.

Yes, it should. In the game's current form that is the only psuedo end game mod goal available to long term players. And if a player is dedicating their first 100+ game hours to maxing out a single mod to Rank 10, in my opinion that player is doing it wrong.

It costs 32 mods to make a rank 5. It costs 2048 for a rank 10. Do rank 10 mods drop 64 times more often than mods that max at rank 5? Then is it really reasonable to expect to fuse 1024 identical mods for the last level?

It takes 1024 identical copies to go from Rank 0 to Rank 10 for maximum efficiency in terms of credits and cards. If you don't wish to find that many copies, you pay for avoiding farming the duplicates by using substitute cards. That comes attached with the obvious cost of increased credits with the hidden cost of slowing down the rank progression of the substitute cards you used, but since there are not that many cards that can reach Rank 10 it is pretty obvious the average player is not expected to actually farm 1024 copies. Fusion Cores were probably intended serve as alternative fusion sources, and after DE finalizes the cost:fusion ratio I expect most players to be using them to boost cards faster towards attaining Rank 10 for the handful of cards that can actually get that high.

There are three common mods for the warframe/sentinal that reach Rank 10, namely Vitality, Redirection, and Steel Fiber. Two uncommon mods that reach Rank 10, Serration (rifle) and Hornet Strike (pistol). The recent huge shield/health buff heavily mitigates any need to max out the survivability related mods, alleviating pressure on the player to focus and max out those three mods.

Given that the stat increase from gaining a rank is linear with an exponential cost to upgrade, the system is based off reduced returns to reward long term play without creating too large a stat gap between veterans and newcomers. Will a new player be able to rush a mod to Rank 10 immediately? No, not without spending an unreasonable amount of platinum. The average veteran player will have a higher stat boost from a mod than a newcomer simply because they have invested more time and effort into that mod. While the veteran may have achieved +100% rifle damage from accumulating the equivalent of 512 copies of Serration, to gain the next +10% rifle damage will require exponentially more effort and dedication than the more casual player who has achieved +50% rifle damage and wishes to bring it up a notch with another +10% rifle damage.

Why is even CONSIDERING it overboard? How many hours does it take you to max a warframe? How many hours does it take to max out a weapon? If it takes me 20 hours to max a frame, 30 hours to max a weapon, is it reasonable that a mod takes well over 100 hours? It costs 15k per part + 25-35k for the main bp to craft a frame. similar kinds of numbers for weapons yet mods are quite different.

If you're only considering it, that's fine. I was under the impression you dumped everything and your underwear into ranking a mod to Rank 10. That would be both impressive dedication and going overboard.

How does the time it takes for a player to get their warframe/weapon from Rank 0 to Rank 30 relate to the time it takes to max out mods? If you have inside information that correlates the two, please do share with the community. Warframes/weapons rank up from their use and mods rank up from fusing drops; due to my ignorance I am unable to determine how the two make a comparable correlation.

tl;dr

It's an FPS with farming elements. The exponential cost to upgrade something that gives linear improvements is designed to reward long term dedicated players without giving them too large an advantage over casual players.

By the time you can realistically go after a Rank 10 mod, you probably have multiple mods that cap out at Rank 5 in mulitple tiers (i.e. owning extra copies also fused to Ranks 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4) and started dumping the newly aquired copies with proper polarity towards achieving the Rank 10.

Just because a mod has the potential to reach Rank 10 doesn't mean you have to get it there overnight.

[Claymore1]

What I want to know is how you managed to only get that much from 100+ hours of play. Have you been purposfully speed-running through all your missions, making sure that you specifically do not grab any mods? Jesus Christ, that's my haul from two runs of the Mercury boss.

[HvcTerr]

Jesus Christ, that's my haul from two runs of the Mercury boss.

You get an average of 211.5 mods/cores from Vor?

[Claymore1]

You get an average of 211.5 mods/cores from Vor?

No. Twelve. That's what's shown in OP's screencap, unless I've gone blind.

[xathil]

Yes, it should. In the game's current form that is the only psuedo end game mod goal available to long term players. And if a player is dedicating their first 100+ game hours to maxing out a single mod to Rank 10, in my opinion that player is doing it wrong.

It takes 1024 identical copies to go from Rank 0 to Rank 10 for maximum efficiency in terms of credits and cards. If you don't wish to find that many copies, you pay for avoiding farming the duplicates by using substitute cards. That comes attached with the obvious cost of increased credits with the hidden cost of slowing down the rank progression of the substitute cards you used, but since there are not that many cards that can reach Rank 10 it is pretty obvious the average player is not expected to actually farm 1024 copies. Fusion Cores were probably intended serve as alternative fusion sources, and after DE finalizes the cost:fusion ratio I expect most players to be using them to boost cards faster towards attaining Rank 10 for the handful of cards that can actually get that high.

There are three common mods for the warframe/sentinal that reach Rank 10, namely Vitality, Redirection, and Steel Fiber. Two uncommon mods that reach Rank 10, Serration (rifle) and Hornet Strike (pistol). The recent huge shield/health buff heavily mitigates any need to max out the survivability related mods, alleviating pressure on the player to focus and max out those three mods.

Given that the stat increase from gaining a rank is linear with an exponential cost to upgrade, the system is based off reduced returns to reward long term play without creating too large a stat gap between veterans and newcomers. Will a new player be able to rush a mod to Rank 10 immediately? No, not without spending an unreasonable amount of platinum. The average veteran player will have a higher stat boost from a mod than a newcomer simply because they have invested more time and effort into that mod. While the veteran may have achieved +100% rifle damage from accumulating the equivalent of 512 copies of Serration, to gain the next +10% rifle damage will require exponentially more effort and dedication than the more casual player who has achieved +50% rifle damage and wishes to bring it up a notch with another +10% rifle damage.

If you're only considering it, that's fine. I was under the impression you dumped everything and your underwear into ranking a mod to Rank 10. That would be both impressive dedication and going overboard.

How does the time it takes for a player to get their warframe/weapon from Rank 0 to Rank 30 relate to the time it takes to max out mods? If you have inside information that correlates the two, please do share with the community. Warframes/weapons rank up from their use and mods rank up from fusing drops; due to my ignorance I am unable to determine how the two make a comparable correlation.

tl;dr

It's an FPS with farming elements. The exponential cost to upgrade something that gives linear improvements is designed to reward long term dedicated players without giving them too large an advantage over casual players.

By the time you can realistically go after a Rank 10 mod, you probably have multiple mods that cap out at Rank 5 in mulitple tiers (i.e. owning extra copies also fused to Ranks 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4) and started dumping the newly aquired copies with proper polarity towards achieving the Rank 10.

Just because a mod has the potential to reach Rank 10 doesn't mean you have to get it there overnight.

Correlation between ranking up mods and frames/weapons? Simple. You need to rank up your weapons/frames to use your mods. At the very least mod energy costs have to very roughly correlate to how much energy your equipment has so that you can use them. Too much excess energy means you aren't getting mods fast enough to get enough usable stuff on your frame or leveling the mods takes too long. Not enough frame/weapon energy means the mods are leveling up too fast, cost too much, or drop too often.

Then you get on to a second frame/weapon. Probably a % of what you were using is still usable -> redirection, rush, flow, streamline.. but with a different frame you use different mods. eg. i started loki, i'd probably level a power duration mod for decoy/invis. but now my second frame is a mag, i want power strength and range for crush.

The low initial exp costs for ranking up 1-10 are pretty good. it means you can get some basic mods that you were using before on. maybe a low level fast deflection+ rush until you get enough energy to slot in your redirection.

The problem arises when you eventually start to cap out those multiple rank 5 mods- you have 1 in all 6 ranks 0-5. But your mods that go up to 10 are still no where near done. But what you DO have is a bunch of mods that you will eventually have no use for since you already have all 6 ranks for optimization.. remember that still only takes the same as having a rank 6 card so you will be done in 64 cards. At that point you literally have zero progression assuming you max out 5-6 warframes, and get to that stage - your frames are all maxed, your weapons are all maxed, your mods with 0-5 ranks are all maxed... but you are left with fusion cores + bunch of mods that you wont ever fuse into another identical copy. Yet the only progression you can make at that point would take prolly another 40-50 hours to get another one rank on that one mod. At that point you arent working on any other mods/weapons/frames because it takes so much longer which essentially leaves you in the position that I hypothetically raised at the start - what would it look to dump ALL of my mods into that one fusion. Except at that point it wouldnt be all my mods. just all my excess ones. ( so pretend what I SS'd in the original post is what i have "spare" apart from the rest of my mods I'm using) Knowing the exponetial nature of the requirements, you are basically looking at your 10 rank mods taking probably close to 150 hours per... to max out. thats like a week of nonstop playing for each. (assuming I'm pretty average in terms of speed of mod collection). Nothing else in the game atm takes that kind of time. So I'm asking the question - is it intentional? Because the frames and weapons max out much faster than that. The problem isnt so much that it takes longer.. the issue is by the looks of it maxing out a SINGLE rank 10 mod would take as much time as it takes to max out most of the avalible arsenal of weapons and a good fraction of the frames.

Never have i suggested you should reach rank 10 overnight. I just think 100+ hours being not enough to max a single mod is a bit overboard. I agree with the initial exponential curve I'm not sure it should be exponential all the way and I'm not sure its intentional that the top end takes as long as maxing out 4-5 frames and a dozen weapons. Sure ... so you say its meant to help casuals keep in line with hardcore gamers. But think about the fact that you have 3 elements, armor pierce, multishot, crit rate and damage which all work multiplicatively with weapon damage mods. The gap is pretty huge just taking those into account. Reallistically then you want something like a modified graph of ln(x) for the growth rate instead.. and realistically it makes sense to use the same growth rate for the number of mods per level as well. (note its PER level so the number of mods required for 10 will still be large just not double of last level large)

[xathil]

What I want to know is how you managed to only get that much from 100+ hours of play. Have you been purposfully speed-running through all your missions, making sure that you specifically do not grab any mods? Jesus Christ, that's my haul from two runs of the Mercury boss.

Please take a look at the picture again. It says FUSING: 423. Thats a little over 400 mods and cores.

[SolluxCaptorTA]

In his defense, Claymore, he has 14 pages of mods. I tink you might not have looked closely enough.

But yeah, maxing it takes forever. I have badass killer weaponry without a single max or even half leveled mod. It's still good, you just gotta diversify.

[Elhazzared]

I'd have to say it is indeed going overboard with how much you need to max out a mod. You may say it's not necessary, it may even be right however there is one more thing to consider besides that. If a mod can go up to level 10, then it should be feasable to upgrade it to level 10 and not take a ludicrious amount of time to get the money and mods necessary to do so.

And for those who say, it's the thing for the long term players... Really, does a long term player aims as his greatest objective to have 1 maxed out level 10 mod after playing for a year non-stop (yes a bit of exageration but it carries the message)?

I will admit that a mod going up to level 10 is not to be archieved overnight, but hey, in a few days? Maybe a week playing at a rate of 4 hours a day (since some people do work after all!!!!!). A long term player which just wants more in the end will aim for having all the armors, all the weapons, all the mods that everything used maxed out as well as copies.to swap this or that accordingly to the mission. That will still take months to archieve by itself and should be good enough for the long term player.

What I feel is that the Dev team did was make the system and test it at lower levels and didn't fully considered the implications of the scalling for higher levels. A dynamic scaling would have been much better to provide a feasable end goal rather than a static scalling.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Elhazzared