Movement/combat Suggestion

[Quetzhal]

Right, so this is obviously just my opinion.

Warframe is a game where you're given the kind of movement options almost no other game offers. As the game stands right now, it doesn't really encourage you to use any of these options - at least not that I've seen. Sure, every once in a while you're going to be told to do 5 "Stylish Kills", or the game might force you to wallrun to get to a particular objective. It makes me feel like the movement system is kind of going to waste, and in the harder levels, you can't really use the system much.

Well, you can, but you'll probably die. I've yet to manage a flying kick to a single enemy in the tougher levels without being riddled with bullets mid-kick. And in some ways this does make sense: If you charge into an enemy, you're going to die.

That kind of system, though, unnecessarily limits the player (there are much better ways to enforce difficulty, I feel). As it is now (partly because of the buffed damage, yes), the system forces you to constantly hide behind cover. If you pop out of cover for too long, you'll die - if you move and try to get to a different cover, you'll probably die, like that one time I tried to tactically retreat into a room I cleared out beforehand for that explicit purpose, only to be swarmed by enemies that spawned there. And come on, how many of us started to play Warframe because the trailer featured someone hiding behind a crate and popping out to shoot every now and again?

Don't get me wrong - taking cover is useful, but it shouldn't be the only viable option, and it shouldn't murder you horribly the moment you fail. Players need to be given a reason to use all the dodges, rolls, backflips, wallruns, kicks, etcetera that they have at their command - otherwise those moves are all kind of going to waste. My thought that is that it might be a good idea to raise the player's 'defense' or somesuch, as long as they're keeping constantly on the move - as though less bullets are hitting them. Much less, not just a marginal amount that gets you killed a fraction of a second later.

Of course, players shouldn't be allowed to be invincible as long as they're just rolling around in circles like a Tenno version of a Grinder - but if I'm shooting at enemies while running across a wall, they should at least be missing me a little more than normal. If I'm dodging between all the enemies and alternating between stabbing and shooting, they should be too stunned to constantly shoot at me, miss more, or accidentally shoot/stagger their own squadmates while trying to hit me. I actually like that last one the best.

How could the system detect this? I'm honestly not sure. My basic thoughts are that it should take into account the skill of the player. This kind of thing shouldn't be extraordinarily easy to pull off, and it should get more difficult the more enemies there are. Maybe the game just takes into account the moves you're using, for example. How many times does X player do a dodgeroll in a row without using a different move? Damage should probably get amplified if done too often, because you become predictable. And what are you doing with each move? Are you shooting while wallrunning? Bonus. Are you shooting and hitting enemies while wallrunning? More bonus. Did you just backflip away from an enemy about to melee you, wallrun up a wall, and then do a jump attack? That should instakill the enemy because that's awesome. (Or do a lot of damage.) Etc.

And you'll still have to run into cover every once in a while, to recover your shields, reload your gun, etc. Don't say that you don't have to play smart because you can just run in and kill things - you can't. You'll still die. What you'd have to do is use the environment to your advantage, and constantly adapt to everything that's happening. If you run into a group of Grineer, they should get confused - if you try to shoot them normally, you will die. If you duck out of the way just as they shoot you, they should accidentally shoot each other.

Really, it's just a thought. I'm not sure if such a thing would even be possible to implement. What I feel is that the system doesn't flow as well as it could - and that it forces you into cover too often, when it should really be encouraging you to take all the options that other shooters don't allow. 'Unconventional' gameplay should be rewarded, rather than punished. Of course, if such a thing were to be implemented, then more moves should be introduced into melee combat, things should flow together a little better, etc.

It might just be the way I play the game - maybe there are already other, better options and I haven't thought of them or haven't pulled them off yet. I'd be happy to hear suggestions in that regard, actually. Or maybe just alternative suggestions that would provide a viable option to defeating enemies without having to play it like a cover shooter?

[icydeadpeople]

Couldnt agree more with this. Perhaps instead of increasing the ammount of damage you take though surely the accuracy of enemies could be brought down.

For example while targetting a stationay Tenno they have a 90% chance to hit, a Tenno sprinting 80%, sprinting along a wall firing at you 50%

[Quetzhal]

Couldnt agree more with this. Perhaps instead of increasing the ammount of damage you take though surely the accuracy of enemies could be brought down.

For example while targetting a stationay Tenno they have a 90% chance to hit, a Tenno sprinting 80%, sprinting along a wall firing at you 50%

Yeah, haha. The only reason I suggested increasing a hidden defense modifier was because it seemed like an easier way to give the illusion that they were missing you more. (Also because I got confused by what other players meant when they said hitscan bullets, durr)

The enemies just missing would be way better, yeah. Less of the feeling that I'm about to die because I see my shields constantly getting pinged.

[Mithie]

All this discussion about HP and Shields highlight one key point: no one's talking about movement because surviving by tanking hits is far more efficient than dodging hits in the current state of the game. One of the key appeals of this game should be movement. We're given a variety of different movement options, and no chance to use them.

So. Wall of text incoming.

1. Hitscan weapons should not be the primary damage dealers in a movement-based shooter. Why? Because the best way to defeat hitscan weapons is to get behind cover, and that's when the game devolves into cover-based-whack-a-mole. There needs to be more projectiles with a travel time which forces the player to move. There are already assets in game for rockets, missiles, and grenades. Give them out!

Make it so that every time a player stands still, he gets 10 vertical launch missiles coming down on his head. Make grinders more than an annoyance. Give them bigger hitboxes (so you can actually kill them), weaker armor, and actual lethality. Stand still with a grinder at your feet and you don't stagger - YOU DIE. Make slow travelling missiles which, once locked on, can only be shot down or outrun. Make fast travelling missiles which requires a sharp change in direction (like going vertical) to dodge. When was the last time you saw anyone run up a wall to evade a missile? Make movement a neccessity, rather than an inconvenience that can more or less be handwaved away by stacking shields. If a player is standing still, PUNISH him for it.

But you say, wouldn't this favor gun play over range play? Since the closer you are to the enemy, the harder it would be to dodge his rocket? Then have your teammates hose down the incoming rockets and play point defense for that rushing excal. Make launch animations long and easily staggered by melee. High risk, high reward.

Oh and make hitscan weapons do less damage.

2. There needs to be a reason to flank.. The maps are not small. They are sizeable, but there's hardly any reason to move around. Give the players reason to flank. Give enemies weak points in the backs and sides. Add enemies with setup times and defined cones of fire. Think deployable guns like heavy machine guns on a bipod or hand that Grineer heavy gunner an automatic grenade launcher. It takes 5 seconds to deploy, can only fire forward in a 45 degree cone, but if you try engaging them from the front, you'll get shredded. Make it so the most efficient way to take them down is to come from around them or behind them. Make them stagger and undeploy on being meleed. Have two players pin them down and the remaining two flank. Teamwork!

3. Extraction should be fun. When that extraction objective pops up, instead of asking the players to run through half the levels again, make it challenging and rewarding. Add mines which pop up everywhere - from the ground, from the ceiling, off the walls, FROM SPACE ITSELF, that needs to be shot once to deactivate. Pile more enemies in your way. Make it so you can still clear through them methodically with the team, but if you try running through them, better make sure you have damn good aiming at high speeds. Make it so rather than dashing straight for the exit, it would instead be dash, slide, shoot, mine, F***, missile, wallrun, shoot, slide, shoot, slide, shoo... missed, eat mine to the face, dash, etc. Make it so when the guy actually runs his way to the extraction point, the reaction isn't "Ah, dammit, I wanted to take it slow" it should be "holy balls, he did it!".

[Quetzhal]

All this discussion about HP and Shields highlight one key point: no one's talking about movement because surviving by tanking hits is far more efficient than dodging hits in the current state of the game. One of the key appeals of this game should be movement. We're given a variety of different movement options, and no chance to use them.

So. Wall of text incoming.

1. Hitscan weapons should not be the primary damage dealers in a movement-based shooter. Why? Because the best way to defeat hitscan weapons is to get behind cover, and that's when the game devolves into cover-based-whack-a-mole. There needs to be more projectiles with a travel time which forces the player to move. There are already assets in game for rockets, missiles, and grenades. Give them out!

Make it so that every time a player stands still, he gets 10 vertical launch missiles coming down on his head. Make grinders more than an annoyance. Give them bigger hitboxes (so you can actually kill them), weaker armor, and actual lethality. Stand still with a grinder at your feet and you don't stagger - YOU DIE. Make slow travelling missiles which, once locked on, can only be shot down or outrun. Make fast travelling missiles which requires a sharp change in direction (like going vertical) to dodge. When was the last time you saw anyone run up a wall to evade a missile? Make movement a neccessity, rather than an inconvenience that can more or less be handwaved away by stacking shields. If a player is standing still, PUNISH him for it.

But you say, wouldn't this favor gun play over range play? Since the closer you are to the enemy, the harder it would be to dodge his rocket? Then have your teammates hose down the incoming rockets and play point defense for that rushing excal. Make launch animations long and easily staggered by melee. High risk, high reward.

Oh and make hitscan weapons do less damage.

2. There needs to be a reason to flank.. The maps are not small. They are sizeable, but there's hardly any reason to move around. Give the players reason to flank. Give enemies weak points in the backs and sides. Add enemies with setup times and defined cones of fire. Think deployable guns like heavy machine guns on a bipod or hand that Grineer heavy gunner an automatic grenade launcher. It takes 5 seconds to deploy, can only fire forward in a 45 degree cone, but if you try engaging them from the front, you'll get shredded. Make it so the most efficient way to take them down is to come from around them or behind them. Make them stagger and undeploy on being meleed. Have two players pin them down and the remaining two flank. Teamwork!

3. Extraction should be fun. When that extraction objective pops up, instead of asking the players to run through half the levels again, make it challenging and rewarding. Add mines which pop up everywhere - from the ground, from the ceiling, off the walls, FROM SPACE ITSELF, that needs to be shot once to deactivate. Pile more enemies in your way. Make it so you can still clear through them methodically with the team, but if you try running through them, better make sure you have damn good aiming at high speeds. Make it so rather than dashing straight for the exit, it would instead be dash, slide, shoot, mine, F***, missile, wallrun, shoot, slide, shoot, slide, shoo... missed, eat mine to the face, dash, etc. Make it so when the guy actually runs his way to the extraction point, the reaction isn't "Ah, dammit, I wanted to take it slow" it should be "holy balls, he did it!".

Option 2 will have to be adjusted for solo gameplay, but otherwise, yeah. I'd honestly be pretty happy if those features were implemented... Some adjustments would have to be made to reviving teammates, too, or it would be virtually impossible to do so - especially in two-man teams, where you don't even have anyone else to help you distract the mobs.

This kind of thing might call for a difficulty setting of some sort, though, to accomodate players or teams of different skill levels.

[Kronk]

really, this guy knows what he is talking about. im waiting for games to be like this since my early years.

warframe exactly got my attention because of that. that kind of immersive gameplay can be implemented in this framework, it is begging for it.

im not talking abot combos or fingercracking controls. its just about the cinematic feel or the proportions given to the movementbased approach.

chance to hit:

standing, walking, running - 100%

sprinting - 80%

wallwalk - 60%

since all of these movements are easy and common used.

jumping from walls

or dodging (rolling) would be the key here i.m.h.o. - 20% (or even to zero in the midanimation).

this maybe sound pretty heavy, but these situations are rare and easy to miss. on top of that melee tenno always draw most attention and take most damage, while shooting tennos mostly dont need to move.

since using more movement to minimize your hitchance, the damagetaking would even be more balanced. the shooters can shoot the old fashioned way and the sprinters can use the framework to do their best to approach the enemy in a creative manner using all of the given tricks, both are happy, since melee attackers draw attention away from the heavy shooters.

otherwise or also: enemies like ancient toxic lose target if they attack you with their slingshotattack. the rather unuseful dodge can come to its best, if you can evade attacks like railguns or slingshots or this "scorpion_comehere"attack. it would look great and make you happy, having reacted just right to avoid a painfull disorientating attack.

wouldnt it? ;)

p.s.: percentage is just a guess, but i took these to point out my feel about the proportion.

thanks for reading

and thank you for your great work!

Edited April 5, 2013 by Kronk

[Kronk]

...

Make it so you can still clear through them methodically with the team, but if you try running through them, better make sure you have damn good aiming at high speeds. Make it so rather than dashing straight for the exit, it would instead be dash, slide, shoot, mine, F***, missile, wallrun, shoot, slide, shoot, slide, shoo... missed, eat mine to the face, dash, etc. Make it so when the guy actually runs his way to the extraction point, the reaction isn't "Ah, dammit, I wanted to take it slow" it should be "holy balls, he did it!".

...

that sums it all up.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Kronk

[Ronyn]

Heck yes.

Movement should effect the enemies ability to damage us.

Either through misses or defense...misses prefered but whatever it takes.

the shear fact that I can do all of these cool moves makes me want to use them but if they dont seem to affect how well I evade fire its not living up to its potential.