Difficulty Scaling And Proper Challenge

[Mithie]

Let's talk about the right way to do challenge and the wrong way to do challenge.

Specifically, let's talk about how Warframe currently scales challenge - by increasing damage and HP of the enemies.

This is the wrong approach.

Numbers are great, if your avatar is being driven by numbers. When we look at a character in World of Warcraft, we often don't care who's behind it, only what gear it has, how much hp it has, and what kind of DPS it can dish out. Because in the case of World of Warcraft, the pilots of that character are primarily the numbers on the gear. That's why increasing HP/damage of the enemies to scale difficulty in WoW makes sense - since the core gameplay is dependent on numbers.

Not in Warframe, and other skill-based shooters.

In Warframe's case, the pilot of your avatar should be the PLAYER, the brain sitting in that skull whose mental impulses are controlling the fingers on the keyboard and mouse, and the human brain does not work on simple numbers. So to scale the challenge in Warframe, we need to be conscious of exactly who we're scaling against.

The more you scale with numbers, the less you take into account the player behind the screen. The higher you make the enemy's damage and armor, the more simplified you make the game. This is evident now. The enemies have increased hp and damage. What do players do? They sit behind cover and plink with ranged fire. Their eyes are on their shield/hp numbers and their target's shield and hp bars. They are no longer watching the environment, they are no longer worried about movement, and they're no longer using the complex tools given to them. In a nutshell, by simply upping the numbers, you've downplayed the importance of the human brain.

So what's the proper way to scale challenge, if not upping the numbers? Simple - up the complexity.

So here's the thing about gamers - challenge comes from multi-tasking. Any player can do one thing extremely well. Mechanically, anyone with enough practice can easily execute a zergling rush in Starcraft with competence. Heck, you can program a bot to execute a zergling rush. It's a defined series of clicks which do not require mental flexibility. The truly challenging part comes after the initial rush fails. Then, the brain suddenly needs to change gear. Options open up, and the brain needs to go into multi-threaded mode. It need to keep tabs on production, defending against a counter-attack, micromanagement, scouting, etc. At this point, the brain encounters true challenge, because the complexity of the situation has increased.

This is the same in a shooter.

The shooting part is easy. You point your mouse at something and you click it. Moving around is easy. You just press the direction you want to go. The true challenge comes from combining the two into one fluid process to overcome the mechanical challenges. The goal of a competent shooter, therefore, is to throw enough wrenches in your way and drastically up the number of tasks your brain needs to manage to force you to make snap-second decisions on how to move and how to shoot.

Take, for example Serious Sam, a very well designed twitch shooter. As you start out, you're introduced to headless bombers, who run at you and detonate themselves when they get close. In the early levels, whenever they appear, they do so without help, so they'll be the sole elements you need to worry about. So you strafe, shoot, and prevent one from getting to you. But as the levels increase, they will appear with ranged mechs who shoot rockets at you, which you also have to dodge. Now it's more difficult, because your brain needs to process dodging the rockets as well as keeping the bombers away. Later, they'll be accompanied by kleers, which are fast, leaping melee things. Now you need to prioritize targets between the bombers and the kleers, as well as dodging the rockets and staying away from walls. Still later in the game, you'll fight an even diverse combination of enemies WHILE the level itself goes from wide open areas to tight spaces or ledges, so not only will you need to move, dodge, and shoot, but also avoid eating splash damage off the wall or strafing off a cliff.

As the complexity of the mechanics start to increase, the player's challenge will increase. It crams so much information into the player's brains that the player needs to constantly filter and sift through the visual information and make snap-second calls on how to come out on top. Here's where the fun begins. The player will have picked up on ways to deal with the individual elements, but together, they present a whole new challenge - a proper challenge - which is much more satisfying to the player when overcome.

That's how the Warframe staff should scale challenge, not with numbers or stats, but by introducing complexity. Give the players more things to think about, and force them to expertly combine previously learned game mechanics into a fluid combination.

[ZeroCool2u]

I concur. I hate WoW based play style, that's why I'm playing a skill based game. If I wanted to sit around and do math all day, I'd just go get a calculator.

[Venarge]

The problem here is that there is actually no free time to bring new and different enemies.... =(

If you want, take a look at my enemy list. I created it and already added one or two enemies. In my opinion, new enemies with different powers and different behaviors would be a good solution for new difficulties. For example: I had the idea for a corpus who is actually using blades HI. For beginners, he could simply attack with his normal attacks. But on higher levels, his skills could have been improved. he could do free running the way we can and dodge bullets with his blades. New skills for him would also bring new challenges.

Here is a link to my thread. Maybe you like something in there ^^

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/20047-list-for-all-the-ideas-about-new-enemies/#entry178343

Edited April 5, 2013 by Venarge

[Imbaland]

This approach can be a slippery slope. Serious Sam, once again, is a good example of this. Sure, they introduce things you need to keep away from, or dodge, or whatever, but they introduce so many that eventually there is no dodging or avoiding, there is just moving. Move all the time and never stop. Jump this way and that way and keep running around. It becomes mindless.

In my opinion, Warframe is in a difficult position. You say that introducing complexity is the way to go about increasing difficulty, but that is exactly how WoW already increases difficulty. Through boss specific mechanics that require constant attention and focus. This works perfectly because attacking is automatic, and the view perspective facilitates it. However, for a game like warframe which is essentialyl a first person shooter, you cannot take this route. The primary task in a shooter is... shooting. Anything else is a mini game. If you try and cater specifically to something other than shooting, you will lose your target audience.

Due to the abysmal state of artificial intelligence, the primary challenge in shooter type games has always been multiplayer. A shooter which attempts to be primarily PvE based is going to have a hard time introducing difficulty passed the arduous nature of coefficient scaling. However, that doesn't mean it can't be done, and can't still be fun. Look at a game like L4D for an example, where the difficulty levels are simply scaling of damage and health. It goes from the easiest level, where an enemy must strike you 30+ times to kill you, to the hardest level, where an enemy needs to hit you three times to kill you, and they come in hordes of 30.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Imbaland

[Nyss]

I don't really see the problem with the idea of introducing new foes and giving new powers to enemies to shake things up as the mission level goes up.

More specifically I would like to see enemies that multiple players have to fight against to succeed, like some sort of lockdown that won't end til a grineer juggernaut is taken out. I don't know about the rest of you, but I enjoy the sudden, random appearance of a miniboss in a game.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Nyss

[Corth]

Agreed.

I think the biggest problem is that mob AI is lacking which in turn means that a formidable group of enemies just turns into a long line of encounters. For the most part the AI doesn't recognize that it has friends.

One shockwave MOA is a distraction. Four shockwave MOAs with a shield osprey and a leech osprey working as an unit is a challenge. But they don't. Every single one of those units just drift their seperate ways and you can take them out with a Skana without problem.

[Gladion]

I concur with mithie2. I don't actually feel like i do need to use my brain while playing Warframe. This topic should really be considered.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Gladion

[TheTenthDoc]

Are you saying we *don't* see new and different enemies in new and different combinations as we go to more difficult systems? Because I definitely do. I've run into rollers+heavy gunners and even rollers+shields are a huge pain. Not to mention commanders+anything can throw a huge wrench into your plans. They do still need to add some at the top end especially for Infested because they are currently tragically kitable/boxable, but it's not as though you're killing lancers, chargers, and crewmen the whole game.

More organization among enemy tier 2+ units might help bring this point home a bit, though.

[Mithie]

Are you saying we *don't* see new and different enemies in new and different combinations as we go to more difficult systems? Because I definitely do. I've run into rollers+heavy gunners and even rollers+shields are a huge pain. Not to mention commanders+anything can throw a huge wrench into your plans. They do still need to add some at the top end especially for Infested because they are currently tragically kitable/boxable, but it's not as though you're killing lancers, chargers, and crewmen the whole game.

No, and let me explain.

The enemy variety certainly goes up, but their tactics never do. Rollers can be neutralized by sniping them down or jumping on a crate. They're never aggressive enough to do what they're supposed to do - flush you out of cover. Grineer heavy gunners are simply upgunned versions of lancers - mechanically, they're exactly the same. Commanders are interesting, but they never actually go after you proactively, and aside from a rather annoying special ability, they're just upshielded lancers with a gun. See, this is a problem - the grineer will happily camp the nearest railing and get shot to pieces. They never go after you aggressively. They never flank, move around, or attempt to punish you for sitting out of their aggro range.

[Ambience]

I hope a dev reads this thread, it's a good one.

The problem with games now days is some of the game designers think scaling a ton of hp and damage is enough to create a challenge. This idea just creates the boring illusion of challenge. In reality all it does is make a dragged out battle long and tedious as the mobs and bosses are just bullet sponges with the same or lack of AI and tactics.

The correct way is to scale hp and damage only slightly, but make the AI where it can coordinate to keep the player(s) on their feet at all times. What I mean is a boss shouldn't stand there and fire at you while you peak and shoot the entire fight. The AI of the mobs/bosses should be constantly trying to kill you by using tactics and put you in a situation where your pressured and your "skill" determines if you can outlast the onslaught. Right now the mobs/bosses just have a ton of hp or run at you as a horde, and to me that's not as entertaining as a small group or boss use different battle tactics to put your lights out.

Another thing is, in the case of bosses or elites mobs, there should be different weak points you can break off or use to your advantage. Currently the example in game best used would be the shield grineer, as you can rip his cover off or shoot slightly above his head to kill him. Something similar should be incorporated into boss battles and some elites.

Since Warframe isn't a hack and slash, one of the best game to be compared to is perhaps one of my favorites, Lost Planet 2.

http://youtu.be/21QsD0xZtcI

In this video I found it shows that mobs and bosses have various tactics and abilities, as well as weak points and strategies to kill it. While it is not too difficult, it does provide more challenge and fun when a boss/mob tries to kill you aside from standing there and shooting.

Edit: fixed video link (it was the wrong one).

Edited April 5, 2013 by Ambience

[iotimoline]

I hate to be the wet blanket here but "Make the AI harder at higher levels" is actually a pretty substantial task. 'Good' enemy AI is both processor-intensive and difficult/lengthy/complex to program. This is not to say it can't be done but it is far, far easier said than done. It's certainly not the sort of thing that you can tweak in the %enemy_smartness field and just make them more challenging.

[Mithie]

I hate to be the wet blanket here but "Make the AI harder at higher levels" is actually a pretty substantial task. 'Good' enemy AI is both processor-intensive and difficult/lengthy/complex to program. This is not to say it can't be done but it is far, far easier said than done. It's certainly not the sort of thing that you can tweak in the %enemy_smartness field and just make them more challenging.

Not really. I used to program a lot of quake bots, and there are quite a few tricks you can use which can make the AI seem more intellgent than they are. For example, if you ramp up the aggression meter and force all melee enemies into locking in a certain distance from each other, then they'll all charge toward the player at approximately the same time. This makes them much more formidable than they currently are. You can also make ranged enemies adjust their distance to you based on health, so when their HP is full, they'll charge you guns a blazing, but as you injure them, they'll fall back and let the ones with full health tank your shots instead. Or, just give every grineer lancer a grenade which they will try to charge forward and use.

We're not talking about super intelligent chess AIs here, just smarter, smoother enemies with the tools to make them formidable.

[Ambience]

I hate to be the wet blanket here but "Make the AI harder at higher levels" is actually a pretty substantial task. 'Good' enemy AI is both processor-intensive and difficult/lengthy/complex to program. This is not to say it can't be done but it is far, far easier said than done. It's certainly not the sort of thing that you can tweak in the %enemy_smartness field and just make them more challenging.

It's a lot of work in the long run perhaps, but with the current system only a handful of people are going to stick around with an exception of a few dedicated people. Most people will come and go if there isn't anything engaging about the game-play. Right now its beta, and DE is awesome cause they actually interact with their users, so we are here to give them the ideas to make this game even better. So for those who are dedicated to helping can help see these ideas shine regardless of its easier said than done or not. After all it's up to the devs to do it in the end.

[tcww]

Improving AI is nice, but I think we have to look at the big picture here. Warframe is a PvE game, and PvE games are attractive so long as there's an incentive to keep playing. Scaling bosses and difficulty are fine, but the new mod system which took away mod rolls for a more 'grindy' kind of mod system really damaged and form of replayability or end-game warframe had... Once you max your mods, there literally is nothing to do anymore...

As for those looking for 'a challenge', I think they are looking for a different type of game. Maybe its the shooter genre that's confusing most people, but generally people who look to 'prove their skill' play PvP games. This is inherently different from what Warframe offers, which is pretty much your average PvE experience. I'd argue that people are rather misguided when they try to look for 'difficulty' in this game, when the thing that really increase the longetivity of Warframe's playability is the PvE aspect of farming. But those unaware of this fact may have just requested for difficulty because they have found themselves in lack of 'things to do' (i.e. farming).

I highly doubt that after all these changes and improvements to difficulty, people will stop complaining about the lack of 'difficulty'. They aren't really complaining that the game is too easy, but rather they are miffed because they have found themselves without any fruitful activity to pursue. One could imagine a PvE game of another genre: puzzle games. It would be highly absurd for players to complain that puzzle games are 'too easy' or 'lack difficulty' - they merely consider the game at its completion once they have played through all the stages. Any PvE game (which Warframe currently remains as) without a well-implemented farming component CANNOT hope to retain a player after they have beaten all the levels.

[Hippaforalkus]

Let's not forget the profound game design superiority, when a player's level is ancillary, and when newbies can participate in endgame content freely without getting obliterated. Leveling alone shouldn't do ANYTHING (numerically) to a player. Higher-level encounters should be more difficult, but never by more than a few percentage points in terms of HP and DPS.

I stopped playing MMO's because of stat-centric game design, and I stopped playing most modern shooters because of cover-centric game design. Those game mechanics suck, and are intrinsically boring and uninteresting.

Perhaps more importantly, if people are leaving the game just because they 'complete' it and have nothing left to farm, then the game has failed to deliver fundamentally engaging gameplay. The devs need to focus on developing the core mechanics of combat and shooting. Historically, the best way to retain gamers is to actually make an awesome game that people want to play. Farming mechanics and player retention are two entirely different things. Treating them as if they are one and the same is one of the grand pitfalls of modern game design.

Game design is not supposed to be easy. If it were, it would completely break the game of designing games.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Hippaforalkus

[tcww]

Let's not forget the profound game design superiority, when a player's level is ancillary, and when newbies can participate in endgame content freely without getting obliterated. Leveling alone shouldn't do ANYTHING (numerically) to a player. Higher-level encounters should be more difficult, but never by more than a few percentage points in terms of HP and DPS.

I stopped playing MMO's because of stat-centric game design, and I stopped playing most modern shooters because of cover-centric game design. Those game mechanics suck, and are intrinsically boring and uninteresting.

Perhaps more importantly, if people are leaving the game just because they 'complete' it and have nothing left to farm, then the game has failed to deliver fundamentally engaging gameplay. The devs need to focus on developing the core mechanics of combat and shooting. Historically, the best way to retain gamers is to actually make an awesome game that people want to play. Farming mechanics and player retention are two entirely different things. Treating them as if they are one and the same is one of the grand pitfalls of modern game design.

Game design is not supposed to be easy. If it were, it would completely break the game of designing games.

A game where newbies can also participate in endgame content? That's quite interesting. I could imagine some kind of flavorful MMO where every person in a town, strong or meek, unites to fight off some worldgorging Dragon.

I don't understand how you can have a replayable PvE game with little to no farming component however. Do you have any examples in mind? I feel like a non-PVP game where veteran players still play for the sheer thrill of outsmarting artificial intelligence seems to only be a pipe dream...

[Corth]

As for those looking for 'a challenge', I think they are looking for a different type of game. Maybe its the shooter genre that's confusing most people, but generally people who look to 'prove their skill' play PvP games. This is inherently different from what Warframe offers, which is pretty much your average PvE experience. I'd argue that people are rather misguided when they try to look for 'difficulty' in this game, when the thing that really increase the longetivity of Warframe's playability is the PvE aspect of farming. But those unaware of this fact may have just requested for difficulty because they have found themselves in lack of 'things to do' (i.e. farming).

With the ease of implementing PvP nowadays, PvE shines in exactly one aspect; Letting formed units move in as tactical response with authentic behaviour.

If they don't do this, but rather just commando their way to you while ignoring their team, then you're just playing a PvP game with bots.

[Ambience]

Improving AI is nice, but I think we have to look at the big picture here. Warframe is a PvE game, and PvE games are attractive so long as there's an incentive to keep playing. Scaling bosses and difficulty are fine, but the new mod system which took away mod rolls for a more 'grindy' kind of mod system really damaged and form of replayability or end-game warframe had... Once you max your mods, there literally is nothing to do anymore...

As for those looking for 'a challenge', I think they are looking for a different type of game. Maybe its the shooter genre that's confusing most people, but generally people who look to 'prove their skill' play PvP games. This is inherently different from what Warframe offers, which is pretty much your average PvE experience. I'd argue that people are rather misguided when they try to look for 'difficulty' in this game, when the thing that really increase the longetivity of Warframe's playability is the PvE aspect of farming. But those unaware of this fact may have just requested for difficulty because they have found themselves in lack of 'things to do' (i.e. farming).

I highly doubt that after all these changes and improvements to difficulty, people will stop complaining about the lack of 'difficulty'. They aren't really complaining that the game is too easy, but rather they are miffed because they have found themselves without any fruitful activity to pursue. One could imagine a PvE game of another genre: puzzle games. It would be highly absurd for players to complain that puzzle games are 'too easy' or 'lack difficulty' - they merely consider the game at its completion once they have played through all the stages. Any PvE game (which Warframe currently remains as) without a well-implemented farming component CANNOT hope to retain a player after they have beaten all the levels.

Yup, you can't be more right.

The mod system does make the game have lack of incentive after you get everything, but there are other things DE can inject into the game to make you have incentive to go out and work for something. Skins, animations, and other cosmetic flare come to mind, but of course there are other things that can be added as long as it doesn't add the P2W effect. This is a whole other mater that shouldn't be ignored either for the long term successes of the game.

In terms of combat and game-play? I played Lost Planet 2 (LP2) Co-Op which is very similar to Warframe in many ways. My friends and I, we played the game over and over in difficulty levels. We attained everything (skins, weapons, gadgets etc..) in the PVE (story mode) we possibly could and still kept playing. Reason? The game was very fun to play and the challenge was just to accomplish it as a group, and see how much harder it got to test our ability to beat it. The game also had PVP, but we mostly did PVE. As much as I loved PVP style in that game, the PVE aspect was a far greater experience. Hell... it even had a story to it with cut scenes and all.

We eventually stopped playing since we pretty much finished everything and exhausted the fixed content. Similarly, Warframe does tend to have the same effect once you pretty much get everything.

In Warframes case it's a growing game with new content being added regularly which LP2 did not have, however, there really is nothing left to do after you accomplished it all aside from waiting for more content. In LP2 there was a fixed amount of PVP at the very least, but in Warframe there is NOTHING to fill the gap in between.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Ambience

[Gladion]

Ambience you're right! I never played Lost Planet 2 but i saw some bosses gameplays and it would be cool if we could enjoy something like that in Warframe!

[Mithie]

A game where newbies can also participate in endgame content? That's quite interesting. I could imagine some kind of flavorful MMO where every person in a town, strong or meek, unites to fight off some worldgorging Dragon.

If you look at Warframe from the perspective of traditional MMO lenses, then Warframe is going to seem like a really S#&$ty MMO. Point is, Warframe should be a skill based shooter first and a grind game second. There should be progression, but ultimately, progression should come from the skill of the player.

In a tradtional MMO, progression comes from time. A person who can sink more hours into World of Warcraft per week WILL end up stronger than someone who can't. That's something Warframe should avoid. The difference between a newbie and a veteran shouldn't be in the length of time played but the amount of skill learned.

I don't understand how you can have a replayable PvE game with little to no farming component however. Do you have any examples in mind? I feel like a non-PVP game where veteran players still play for the sheer thrill of outsmarting artificial intelligence seems to only be a pipe dream...

There are plenty of free to play shooters, such as Team Fortress 2, or semi-paid shooters, like Left for Dead 2, in which players can progress in skill without resorting to farming.

[Aure7]

I agree with this for sure. The closest to this I got was on some infected levels when distruptors, green poison ancients and many other small ones attacked at the same time, hell then it was really fun because I actually used super jump for tactical and dodging purposes and also used a lot of wallruning tricks to split enemies into smaller groups that i had to fight with. In generall it was a nice situation to fight in.

With all these suggestions I could also add that they could probably increase the randomization even more? Make the levels with randomly scattered covers, a little different stats for bosses and enemies each time. So the effect is kind of like left 4 dead when the waves of zombies and special infected are placed depending on the situation so it makes every minute of playtime unique, no preplaced bosses at the exact corners.

[tcww]

If you look at Warframe from the perspective of traditional MMO lenses, then Warframe is going to seem like a really S#&$ty MMO. Point is, Warframe should be a skill based shooter first and a grind game second. There should be progression, but ultimately, progression should come from the skill of the player.

In a tradtional MMO, progression comes from time. A person who can sink more hours into World of Warcraft per week WILL end up stronger than someone who can't. That's something Warframe should avoid. The difference between a newbie and a veteran shouldn't be in the length of time played but the amount of skill learned.

There are plenty of free to play shooters, such as Team Fortress 2, or semi-paid shooters, like Left for Dead 2, in which players can progress in skill without resorting to farming.

I don't agree with the comparisons. TF2 is a PvP game at heart, so skill comes relative to other players. As for L4D, there is no way to farm, so you can't "resort" to farming because its non-existent. But this RPG element exists in Warframe, and I daresay is a larger component of Warframe than the fps part, irrespective of what your ideal vision of Warframe is.

But you have raised a good point about the nature of this game. Is it an MMORPG, or is it an FPS? Currently, Warframe is heavily geared towards being an MMORPG. In a duel between a level 1 excalibur frame with no frame or weapon mods vs. a level 30 rhino frame with max frame and weapon mods and maxed sentinel, the odds are stacked against the lvl 1 frame.

The current state of 'imbalance' between frames and weapons add novelty and flavor to Warframe - there aren't that many space-ninja-shooting games around. But that perk definitely hinders any PvP that the creators might try to develop... Nonetheless, I think its a lot less clear-cut whether Warframe is an MMO with FPS elements, or a 'skill-based' FPS with MMO and RPG elements (which doesn't make it as 'skill-based' as you would seem to want it to be).

[Mithie]

I can't speak for everyone else, but if Warframe turns into a first person WoW clone, I will be very disappointed.

[Ambience]

If you look at Warframe from the perspective of traditional MMO lenses, then Warframe is going to seem like a really S#&$ty MMO. Point is, Warframe should be a skill based shooter first and a grind game second. There should be progression, but ultimately, progression should come from the skill of the player.

In a tradtional MMO, progression comes from time. A person who can sink more hours into World of Warcraft per week WILL end up stronger than someone who can't. That's something Warframe should avoid. The difference between a newbie and a veteran shouldn't be in the length of time played but the amount of skill learned.

There are plenty of free to play shooters, such as Team Fortress 2, or semi-paid shooters, like Left for Dead 2, in which players can progress in skill without resorting to farming.

That's exactly why I say that adding cosmetics and flare rewards are much better off to avoid, "Oh I play more so I pwnz faster" aspect of the game. Although games like Dota 2 and TF2 are a different category of game, the "cosmetic" aspect has proven to be very successful in both games. Keep in mind TF2 is a FPS shooter and Dota 2 is a MOBA using similar cosmetic model. Valve knows how to make money and keep the games they make fair for everyone, so to me that's something that should be adopted for a F2P with a non-P2W model.

I can't speak for everyone else, but if Warframe turns into a first person WoW clone, I will be very disappointed.

It is unlikey lol. If so, well that would suck cause I'd rather play BF3 or something XD

[Naqel]

You identify the problem well, however offer only part of the solution.

The problem with Warframe difficulty/challenge is deeper than just the enemy numbers and strength, it is also a problem with the numbers on the player side of things.

In a pursuit to monetize convenience and keep our interest, the game has took on a form where truly interesting ideas(like the mod system), will forever be drowned out by the sheer power creep necessary to keep up with the content.

The problem with fixing the problem, is that in order to do so the game would have to undergo ANOTHER system rework(though a lesser one this time), and a serious effort to re-evaluate it's monetization scheme, combined with some additions to its staff. A series of moves that would put strain not only on the financial budget, but also the one of player trust.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Naqel