Ideas For Expanding Melee Combat. *warning Text Wall*

[Blindweavel]

So, I've been playing Warframe for almost two weeks now, and I have to say, for a newly released, open beta product, I'm very impressed, and I've been having a lot of fun playing regardless of the many bugs and hiccups. Although admittedly, I still somewhat prefer the idea of Warframe over the actual game, and that's mostly because of my own preconceptions and unrealistic expectations reading the description on Steam. I mean, kicking &#!, fighting space marines, super-zombies and robots and stuff as a badass techy space-ninja? Yes please! And what really caught my attention was the combo of gunplay and melee combat, allowing the player to quickly and effectively destroy everything that crosses their path with either bullet or blade, seamless and integrated. The very thought of that was almost drool-worthy, and prompted an immediate download. But now that I've gotten a chance to play the game, and explore most of it's systems, I've come away with a few updated opinions.

The first is that moving around the environments is a lot less crappy than I first thought, once I learned when and how to press the right buttons, performing wall runs, slides and front flips and other things was near effortless, and combined pretty well with melee and shooting, it's a lot of fun.

The second is more of an observation, and that, is that the gunplay is very competent, and works great alongside the movement style of the game. Pulling off headshots moving or stationary with a multitude of weapons is very doable and definitely satisfying. I've not tried anywhere near all the guns in the game, but the rifles and pistols I've handled have all felt right, which is more than I can say for a lot of other games.

The final point, is my disappointment in the melee combat. And that's really the meat and main direction of this entire overly long-winded and self-satisfying post.

So right now, the melee combat in Warframe is basically just spamming E or spamming E(held), which is pretty bland. The basic melee attacks are weak, and it takes sometimes as many as eight or ten hits to kill a basic Grineer Lancer in my own level range, and that is with an extra 20% piercing damage. Corpus soldiers offer similar numbers. The charged melee strikes are generally one hit KOs on basic enemies, which is nice, but the charge time makes using them a less attractive option than either spamming E or just shooting them, at least for me.

I don't like that E is the sole key for melee attacks in the first place. It makes sense for a fast-paced military shooter like Call of Duty or something, because the melee attack is a quick one hit KO, so your left hand is using W A S and D to move around, and you only need to hit E once to kill an opponent in front of you, assuring your mobility is preserved. In Warframe, mobility is not only one of the dominant themes in the game, it's also often essential to your survival when playing, and since enemies do not die in one hit, you have to press E multiple times or hold it down, which means unless you're using a controller(which I do not), the index finger which would otherwise be used for moving right, is no longer available, essentially eliminating one fourth of your possible movement vectors. Which, needless to say, could be a problem when you're surrounded by enemies and melee combat should be the best solution for dispatching nearby foes.

Now, the mouse wheel in the default control scheme is used to cycle through frame powers, and pressing it activates the power you select. But, 1 through 4 on the number bar also serve that purpose. So the player has two methods to use the same powers. Personally, I think the mouse-wheel selection and activation system is entirely superfluous to the fluidity of the combat. One of the most common traits in PC games is using the number bar for actions, it's an accepted standard in control schemes, and for myself, completely instinctual. And for people who are not so familiar with Warframe, or PC gaming in general, I would think that hitting 1 through 4 to activate abilities would at least be as easy as learning to use the mouse wheel to select and activate powers, so why have two systems which are mostly equal in usability for the same set of actions? I believe the mouse wheel could be used for something much greater. I understand the game is in beta right now, and the product we have our hands on isn't really anything at all like what the devs envision for the final product, but I'm still concerned about the direction of the melee combat. The idea of the Tenno, equally deadly with blade or gun, silent when it wants to be, deadly always, has so much potential, it sets my imagination alight.

I'd like to discuss the melee combat system with you other players, get your opinions and ideas, and maybe(hopefully) some insight from the dev team. There's no point in changing the current systems if I'm the only person who wants that change, so I'd love to hear from everyone else. So, I'll start out with some of my ideas.

TL;DR I want different melee combat, and here's what I'm thinking.

First off, keep E as a melee attack. In this case it'd be a quick, basic mid-damage strike which could be performed without interrupting the flow of the gunplay, you can hit it more than once, just like it is now, but it's basic, and doesn't really offer the DPS to be an effective, single option, much like it is now. I would likely use it to finish targets as I close in on them, or quickly dispatch weak melee range enemies while retaining ranged capability to fight off other, stronger enemies, much like I do now. It's useful, and has a place in the game, but it shouldn't be the epitome of the melee combat. Obversely, you could drop this move, and put E as the default bind for the Block move, it could work.

The mouse wheel would become the nexus of melee in this new control scheme. Pressing the mouse wheel would toggle the equip of your melee weapon, you'd draw your Skana and it would remain drawn. The left mouse button would be your basic melee attack, depending on the weapon speed and weight, it would have different combos, where the Fragor hammer or Gram sword might have a 3-string combo, the Heat Dagger might have a 5 or 6-string, so that DPS between the different classes of weapons would remain constant.

Now, the purpose in having combos instead of an infinitely repeating cycle, would be to not only add depth to the gameplay, but also offer a modifer for other actions. Sure, repeating the same six cycles over and over isn't that different than repeating the same two cycles, but, it's not the cycle itself which is important here. These combos tie into the next additional actions.

Mouse Wheel Up: would be a strong attack, would vary between weapon types. The Skana could be a powerful overhead swing, the Fragor could be an overhead ground slam, twin Heat Swords could be a frontal flurry of fiery thrusts, whatever, the point is, it's a unique and powerful melee attack, which has unique uses and strengths depending on the weapon. This attack would also be enhanced by the basic combo attacks, the further you go in the combo before you activate the strong attack, the more powerful the finisher.

Mouse Wheel Down: this would be another strong combo ender, but different than the first. Having two strong combo ending attacks would not only increase the depth and variability of the gameplay, it would also offer effective and useful utility as a melee combatant.

Right Mouse is weapon block(this is seperate from the existing block), by clicking at the appropriate time you can negate enemy melee attacks, correct timing would be blocking right as an enemy melee strike would otherwise hit you. This would negate any damage otherwise received and open up the opportunity for a riposte, which would either be just a damage boost in the next attack against that enemy, or a unique animation coupled with high damage, it would depend on how much the devs wanted to put into programming this crap.

Imagine you're fighting Grineer, and two shield lancers are charging you, with a squad of shotgun lancers right behind them. With the existing system, I'd hold down E, and maybe run in a circle to get the proper range, and make sure I wasn't interrupted before my attack was done charging. Hit the two shieldies with the charge attack, and then finish them off with another basic melee strike, or, I'd do a ground slide slash attack, either way. Now, for the next part, depending on my mood, I'd either just use another charged attack, maybe getting interrupted, maybe not, or I'd keep range from the shotguns and just shoot them.

With my new system, it'd go something like this...

Taking a running start, I sprint right for the shieldies in my way, at the proper range I'd input Mouse Wheel up, performing a lunging overhead swing with my Skana, arcing over the shield of the first guy, and then I'd adjust my aim, and hit the other shieldie's now exposed left side with a few left click melee attacks. Now, the shields are down, but I have three shotgun wielding Lancers closing in fast, and now opening fire, tearing though my shields. I perform a forward roll with Shift, closing the range, and I strike one of the Lancers with three of my basic left click attacks, bringing him to about 10% HP, I then input Mouse Wheel Down, performing a drawn back, 180 degree frontal slash attack, which removes the legs of the two closest Lancers, including the one I'd already damaged, the third Lancer lunges at me, and attempts to whack me with the stock of his gun. I hit Right Mouse right before it connects with my head, blocking his hit, shoving him back, I hit left mouse again(E could also be viable for the riposte modifier), grab his weapon arm, and then shove my sword through his chest, killing him in one hit.

Now, obviously this would require a good amount of work on the developer end to pull off, and in the end, it's up to them what they work on and put into the game. And even if they don't use this system, if they do completely their own thing, I still think the melee combat needs to be expanded quite a bit. As it stands, the melee combat is really the only part of the experience which doesn't feel like badass space ninja awesomeness, the rest of the gameplay is pretty much spot on in portraying that character. Nobody but the devs really know what direction the game's heading in, or where it will be as the beta test progresses and eventually ends, all I know is, it's a fun, cool game that I like playing, and I want to help it develop and get better. Thanks for sticking it out and(hopefully) reading all this, I look forward to any response and/or feedback!

[Feddy]

I rebound my melee key to mouse button 5, ive fully modded Dual Blades, with Maxed Damage / Fire rate / Crit / Crit Damage / Charge Damage,

And i enjoy the melee mechanics very much, i run around guns blazing and whenever i have to reload, or get close to an enemy i quickly finnish him off in melee. Or my favourite combo, sprint in and jump, then slide while shooting in the air, and knock everyone you contact down, after landing sliding a bit further while shooting i do a jump from slide and do a air melee attack knocking everything down again, then i start finnish off all the grounded enemies off with normal attack spam or with charge attacks while their still on the ground.

On the higher levels, and playing solo you cant really afford to just spam charge attacks as interupts can be very very deadly, and you really have to mix in every weapon and ability you got to do well. Im not saying i disagree with your views, but obviously you can toy around with it alot more than you have :)

Edited April 6, 2013 by Feddy

[Blindweavel]

I rebound my melee key to mouse button 5, ive fully modded Dual Blades, with Maxed Damage / Fire rate / Crit / Crit Damage,

And i enjoy the melee mechanics very much, i run around guns blazing and whenever i have to reload, or get close to an enemy i quickly finnish him off in melee.

Im not saying i disagree with your views, but obviously you can toy around with it alot more than you have :)

Yeah, I've read a lot of posts by people who have done something similar to you, which is leveling and modding their melee weapons to be very powerful, which is a completely legitimate and likely intended direction in the game. But, my main point isn't that the game doesnt give melee power to be effective, it certainly is effective. I just find it to be kind of boring, when compared to the smoothness of the gunplay.

[Disthe]

Thanks for the article, Blindweavel.

DE is quite solid to its melee system but I really want it to be rework.

Melee powerful =/= Fun to play

I read a post here before said its melee is kinda like fps using repetitive animation. Just charge attack, slide attack variation doesn't make it alive.

Warframe presetted melee weapons either good at charge (Dual heat swords) or normal melee(Fang) which means further narrow down the variation.

[contractkiller4]

Honestly, simple fits warframe because melee is fast. Not like fast combos, but because melee combat is usually over on the first swing, so a complex melee system sorta doesnt fit. Enemies don't require large complicated combos, but just a quick charged attack and you go on with your killing. If there were a more complex system, I would prefer one like vindictus with the "click leftmouse X number of times, then right mouse for a unique attack".

[Quasaron]

I strongly agree with your opinion. This game took me by surprise, a tripla A quality F2P game that popped out of nowhere! The fluidity of the gameplay is very enjoyable and the feeling of bieng a Tenno is awesome. The mission system is well designed, with high modularity, room for more mission variety and enemy types. I think there is already a core enjoyable experience that will keep a lot of people satisified here. Discovering the combos were another joyful aspect, and I'm hoping there will be more to further blend the gun and melee gameplay (stuff like pulling a gun up at melee distance for guranteed crit)

But I was a bit disappounted by the fact that only the pistol and rifle could become 'equipped', although I think having melee as a quick 'E' key is reasonable, I think they can still add that equip-melee weapon mode for much more depth. The first Assasin's creed somewhat had this mechanic already, block, parry, riposte, all requiring great timing and obersvation of enemy motion. Additional melee attacks would dramatically increase gameplay styles and the possibilities of weapon variation like you said. A few star wars game also had some in-depth lightsaber aspects, allowing one to change between light, normal and heavy combo swings, all varying in range of attack, animation speed and damage.

Half the time, against certain bosses I just see people charging melee attacks the whole fight. If a fleshed out melee system was introduced, players could decide between risking to go through with a full combo set for a high end-damage, or be interupted and lowered dps. Blocking would also interupt them, but timing it may allow a quick counterattack to compensate. A series of charged attack could also lead to more options, e.g. 3 chained melee attacks has a stronger final attack. The bonus of aiming for melee attack would also add another laying of complexity, for example in Killing floor, aiming for the neck is guranteed crit and decapitation, and further that notion: attacking leg for slowing enemy down, arms for reducing damage output. I understand that this hitbox system would require extensive overhaul, but adapting the head-shot system from pistol and giving multiple effects from different hit box would be interesting.

[Kronk]

I like the basic approach of the melee, even though i am a massive melee warframeplayer. the swords have their combo's and flurry'S already, there wouldn't be need for combinations in my opinion. since you have jump and slidejump variation and charge there is plenty of attacks to combine.

i would not like a beatMup combination melee system.

also i can understand that melee cant be a onehit-solution and im fine with the overall attacking damage of melee, given you have highlvl swords and a good modtaste.

BUT

blocking should be much more crucial in this game.

and the enemies should react on melee distance rather than standing around or hit you once all 5seconds. they should attack you melee only, until they are far enough or have succesfully hit you, which gives them the advantage to shoot afterwards.

furthermore their melee attacks should definetely be blockable (whith the already built in blockfunction which works just fine for it)

like this:

enemy tries to hit>you block>enemy stunned>you have the advantage to hit or shoot. you dont loose health or shield or get stunned

enemy tries to hit>you fail blocking>you are stunned like we know it from the game already/ you loose healt or shield>enemy has advantage and shoots at you while evading!

what blocking can and cannot do:

blocking melee:

blocking should block any melee attack. But, the harder the attack the more stamina you loose.

having no stamina means no block.

blocking can not block elemental damage at all or at least some of them like shock or poison.

blocking ranged:

(until now, it seems that you loose shield while blocking. even with a full stamina bar. well, i think blocking should block every normal and elemental shot until stamina is drained)

blocking rollers/special enemies:

the hard to hit rolling blades, that seek and attack you are great enemies to block. they can be very dangerous in mobs and their damage combined with their stun can destroy you in no time. instead of waiting for it to stop because of a system glitch, you should be waiting for it to attack you, just to block it in the right time (not to soon due to staminaloss) which maybe drains your stamina much, but lets you hold your ground and deal no damage. now you have advantage to shoot it, since it is readying up slowly for a new attack.

this block mechanic can be added to be able against any bladewielding enemy.

thanks for reading!

Edited April 6, 2013 by Kronk

[ValhaHazred]

I think if they where going to add more combos it should be tembo based. Click,click,pause,click for a fancy third strike for example. I think changing the mechanics too much would overcomplicate it and throw off the balance of the game.

[Naqel]

Your heart is in the right place, but your ideas don't exactly fit with the game's current design.

Not to mention mouse wheel controlls being incredibly unwieldy.