Why Stuns Are Bad

[Imbaland]

There have been a lot of posts going around about how the stun on unit X is annoying, or how the knock back on unit Y should be removed. Typically there will be a response from someone stating how easy it is to avoid the stun, and how the player complaining is just bad. Otherwise, the complain will relate to that specific unit, and not to others with similar mechanics.

This post, on the other hand, is about the core reason why stuns are a bad mechanic in every form, regardless of which unit has them, and why they should be removed almost entirely.

The first thing that needs to be addressed is the concept of stuns adding "difficulty", and the game being too easy without them. The thing that needs to be understood is that it is the job and intent of the developers to balance the game appropriately. If stuns were the balancing linchpin of the entire game, then removing them could pose a problem in terms of balanced difficulty. However they most certainly are not. There are numerous other variables which can be adjusted to ensure a good, balanced level of difficulty. You can adjust the damage of an enemy, the speed of an enemy, the "intelligence" of an enemy, the health of an enemy. So many other things can be used to increase difficulty, that the removal of stuns will never universally mean that something will be "easier".

Now to the crux of the matter; why stuns are a bad mechanic, and here it is.

Stuns make the game easier

Now hang on a minute, how can I say that after the last paragraph about balance? Well, balance is the exact reason why stuns make the game easier. Allow me to explain.

Many of the mechanics I mentioned in the previous paragraph are "regulated by skill". For example, fighting against an enemy with increased health is regulated by skill, because a player with good accuracy will still expend fewer bullets and kill the enemy faster than a player with poor accuracy. A player who is very good at avoiding attacks will be less affected by an enemy with high damage than a player who is bad at avoiding attacks. These attributes are all regulated by the player's skill level.

Here's the problem: stuns are not regulated by skill. Once a stuns duration exceeds human reaction time (like 200ms, so basically all stuns), all elements of skill are removed. When the player begins to wait for his character to recover, without any control over it, he might as well be anyone. His skill or experience no longer plays a part in that interaction with the enemy, and as such is irrelevant.

Since the balance aspect of the game means that the mechanics are designed with an archetypal player in mind, players who are below that predetermined level of skill are immediately at an advantage (or at the least on even ground) when it comes to stun mechanics, because skill becomes irrelevant.

[f3llyn]

I agree with most of what you said. Stuns are just an unfun mechanic that makes a game more tedious and frustrating to play than anything else.

 

However, making enemies bullet sponges is not fun or a solution either. I'd rather enemies had some unique abilities that made them a challenge instead of relying on inventive game mechanics like giving them all the potential to stun lock and 1 shot you or take several clips to kill.

Edited April 12, 2013 by f3llyn

[Xtorma]

Stun/stagger is simply an easy way to add difficulty. No one likes them, and most every company uses them. It makes up for inability to program good AI behavior.

[griever102]

I only see stuns working for the enemy, except on certain weapons for specific enemies, like the hek stuns/staggers the ancients.
And I don't see why you have such a big problem with stuns, it's not like they're constantly present + they're easily avoidable, and I don't see how skill becomes irrelevant when you can avoid those stuns, and with the agility the warframes possess right now, stuns just seem nearly useless to be in the game, the way I see it just a more effective way for the enemy to stop your "rampage" and not something that necessarily puts you on the same level as some1 who isn't so good at game as you are. 

 

I'm still trying to figure out how the stun mods work or if they even work :(

[Inberun]

Stun/stagger is simply an easy way to add difficulty. No one likes them, and most every company uses them. It makes up for inability to program good AI behavior.

 

GETH

[Woolytop]

The thing about stagger/stuns is that they create a feel for an enemy attack. At around level 20-25, a charger can potentially do around 200 damage to your shield with a single attack. That's a hard freakin' hit, harder than a lot of bullets. And you're telling me that my delicate-looking mag can sit there and TANK that with no problem? No, a hit like that's going to knock someone off balance, no matter how ninja they are. Without them, a person would sit in the middle of a mob of chargers and not neccesarrily realize how much they're getting their &#! handed to them until they're on the floor.

 

What IS frustrating is being stun/stagger locked, in which case that same person could get mobbed by chargers and not be able to do anything about it, which is the un-fun that people are likely talking about when they bring these stun-based enemies up. Shield lancers are okay now, kind of a pain, but bearable (before we had scaling hp/shields, getting knocked down by one was your shields and 25% of your health, just from the shield lancer, which could potentially ruin a run). The grineer rollers are a pain only because they're difficult to actually *kill* when you're occupied with other things, and a trio or even a pair of chargers could staggerlock you to death if you're unlucky. This is what needs to change; the tenno need some kind of mercy stun-protection for a few seconds after they've been staggered.

[Imbaland]

What about a pseudo quick time event?

 

In the event of a stun or stagger effect, your character is knocked in the relevant direction. During this time, the player can perform a roll type maneuver which prevents them from ultimately losing control of their character.

[drunkpunk222]

Game is super easy for now, why we need more tools to make game even more easy, weapon ballance is bad, why lots of pistols like akbolto is MORE better then any rifle, super fast reload, lots of bullets,better in any stats even damage, accuracy is super great even hek and other shotguns is like sniper rifle with huge range :D.. weapons should be more unique then, no one using some swords or dagers pistols and rifles, everyone taking not balanced OP stuff

[griever102]

The thing about stagger/stuns is that they create a feel for an enemy attack. At around level 20-25, a charger can potentially do around 200 damage to your shield with a single attack. That's a hard freakin' hit, harder than a lot of bullets. And you're telling me that my delicate-looking mag can sit there and TANK that with no problem? No, a hit like that's going to knock someone off balance, no matter how ninja they are. Without them, a person would sit in the middle of a mob of chargers and not neccesarrily realize how much they're getting their &#! handed to them until they're on the floor.

 

What IS frustrating is being stun/stagger locked, in which case that same person could get mobbed by chargers and not be able to do anything about it, which is the un-fun that people are likely talking about when they bring these stun-based enemies up. Shield lancers are okay now, kind of a pain, but bearable (before we had scaling hp/shields, getting knocked down by one was your shields and 25% of your health, just from the shield lancer, which could potentially ruin a run). The grineer rollers are a pain only because they're difficult to actually *kill* when you're occupied with other things, and a trio or even a pair of chargers could staggerlock you to death if you're unlucky. This is what needs to change; the tenno need some kind of mercy stun-protection for a few seconds after they've been staggered.

 

 

What about a pseudo quick time event?

 

In the event of a stun or stagger effect, your character is knocked in the relevant direction. During this time, the player can perform a roll type maneuver which prevents them from ultimately losing control of their character.

 

 

Isnt the fact that you can get ontop of crates so chargers can't reach/hit you enough to avoid them?

Edited April 12, 2013 by griever102

[CubedOobleck]

Here's the problem: stuns are not regulated by skill. Once a stuns duration exceeds human reaction time (like 200ms, so basically all stuns), all elements of skill are removed. When the player begins to wait for his character to recover, without any control over it, he might as well be anyone. His skill or experience no longer plays a part in that interaction with the enemy, and as such is irrelevant.

Your post made sense to me up to here.

The skill involved with stuns (and knockbacks and all the rest) is avoiding them, just like you said there is skill in avoiding high damage attacks. Stuns are a way of dealing contextual damage, if you were already getting overwhelmed a stun can be fatal, so it brings on another skill, having a general feel of the battle so that you can move to locations where getting stunned won't be fatal or cause too much damage.That said, there are indeed too many enemies that resort to stuns and the like. I personally dislike rollers as they are so small while I think the infested are fine as they are a melee faction. But anyway, DE knows that this is stun situation is getting out of hand and is making new animations to reduce your stun time, which to me sounds like a decent fix. I do think there needs to be a cooldown between knockbacks for players: enemies won't fall back to the ground when they just got back up, while us tenno can fall again before we were even getting back up.

Edited April 12, 2013 by CubedOobleck