Why The Infested Ancient Needs A Good Old-Fashioned Nerf.

[TinyLesbianRobot]

Let me start by saying that Warframe is currently my favourite game.  It's fast, fun, gorgeous, not pay to win, and I've currently got about fifty hours clocked.

However, there is one thing that consistently irritates me:

Infested Ancients.

In a game as skill-based as this, ideally, there should always be a way to reliably avoid taking damage from an enemy.  This isn't a problem with most of the ranged bad guys (IE: Corpus and Grineer) because the damage is so light, and you can avoid most of it by moving quickly, but when you face an Ancient, or worse, more than one, there simply isn't a way to avoid getting hit.  And given the amount of damage dealt, combined with the stumble effect and the Disrupter's ability to drain *all* of your energy, this is a problem.

I'm not calling for a complete rebuild of the entire Ancient enemy tree.  This problem stems from a combination of issues, and if even one was addressed, they would no longer be as frustrating as they are.  Let me explain.

Ancient attacks are nearly impossible to dodge.  This stems from the extremely brief windup, the long range, the attack's high accuracy, and the Ancient's ability to hit you if you're anywhere near them - even clipping their attack arm straight through their own body.  Now, one might say 'this is to force the player to keep them at a distance', and I'd agree, except all Ancients are capable of entering a 'charge' mode, during which they move faster than the player can sprint.  This can be sustained indefinitely.

So here we have a heavily armored enemy with a lot of health.  He can close the distance between himself and the player quickly and efficiently, then hit the player nine times out of ten, even if the player is attempting to dodge, leaving the player stunned, poisoned, and/or without energy.

If *anything* I mentioned was altered, the Ancient would be a much more reasonable opponent.  If the Ancient's charge was slower, or had a small stamina cap, then the player would be able to maintain range.  If the Ancient's attack had a longer windup, then the player would have a chance to get out of range.  If the Ancient's attack had a fixed arc, and could no longer penetrate its own body, then the player could dive out of the way.  But as it stands, unless you're very lucky, or spot the Ancient at long range, it's next to impossible to fight one without getting hit.  Even worse, if you round a corner and encounter three or more Ancients, you're completely screwed - even moreso if they're toxic or disrupter Ancients, as you'll be stunlocked nearly instantly, then poisoned or drained of energy.

If there's a tactic I'm simply missing, please fill me in.  If not, I'd like to hear what the devs think of this suggestion.

[nzzero]

When it charges, shoot the big boot to stagger it.

 

Shooting that boot also does full damage and bypasses ancients armor due to that part being the only one not covered in infestation or sth like that.

[CaligoIllioneus]

If there's a tactic I'm simply missing, please fill me in.  If not, I'd like to hear what the devs think of this suggestion.

 

Frost damage mods. They slow down their charge and their normal attacks, to the point where you can roll dodge their attacks.

 

Also, even without the slow from frost damage, you can dodge their attacks. They enter the charge, but to hit you they need to do their small windup. This gives you a chance to get away from their range.

 

Yes, if they surround you, you're screwed....but this is basically the strength of the infested as a faction, and for this they pay with no ranged attacks

[Nuko_Miko]

Personally I like killing those ancient infested guys :D

I agree that more than 2 are a handful to kill but I like them this way. It is way better to have some kind of challenge from time to time

[Psyked]

If there's a tactic I'm simply missing, please fill me in

climb/dodge/knock them down/run/shoot their foot

You have tons of options but you don't use them apparently. They don't need a nerf, you need to become better.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Psyked

[matrixEXO]

Infested are easy to kill. There are a few ways:

 

1) Dodge. When they charge, go 180 degrees away from them. That can be wall-running followed by a jump, a jump down, heck even platforms built 180 degrees would work (in some cases).2) Know their stop range. They stop just a short distance away from you. You can fake that distance by standing near a box and make them attack the box instead while you unload that clip onto their legs/feets.

 

3) Melee attack. This is only recommended against non-Poison Ancients. Melee-ing one will stagger him and continuously meleeing him will keep that stagger effect on. Just try not to do it with more than 2 (I can juggle between 2 just fine). This tip requires a weapon that CAN stun and preferably using a weapon with high normal attack since charged attacks take too much time.

 

4) Stay away. They slumber slowly and you can tell where they are from a distance. Take your time and shoot at their legs while backing off. Your walking speed cannot be slower than their shuffling speed towards you. Edited April 13, 2013 by matrixEXO

[stacey69]

easiest mobs in game to kill cos they do nothing unlesss your stupid enough to cuddle them. spray with frost then either headshot or foot shots on them. if you wanna melee them youll get hit from time to time. level redirection and you wont feel it. stop asking for nerfs. learn how to play so we dont all suffer thanks.

[NoeleVeerod]

Ancients are fine as they are. They are supposed to be somewhat fearsome and problematic to deal with.

If you have problems, stun and/or freeze them, this way you can also close to them and charge-attack with melee until they die.

Of course, if you're facing a poisonous ancient, then just stay away and fire at their feet to prevent them from closing in and keeping them staggering until they kick the bucket.

[TinyLesbianRobot]

When it charges, shoot the big boot to stagger it.

 

Shooting that boot also does full damage and bypasses ancients armor due to that part being the only one not covered in infestation or sth like that.

 

 

Frost damage mods. They slow down their charge and their normal attacks, to the point where you can roll dodge their attacks.

 

Also, even without the slow from frost damage, you can dodge their attacks. They enter the charge, but to hit you they need to do their small windup. This gives you a chance to get away from their range.

 

Yes, if they surround you, you're screwed....but this is basically the strength of the infested as a faction, and for this they pay with no ranged attacks

 

Thanks for the intel - I wasn't aware that it was possible to stagger or interrupt them without equipping some heavy stun or meleeing them.  Cheers, guys :)

 

climb/dodge/knock them down/run/shoot their foot You have tons of options but you don't use them apparently. They don't need a nerf, you need to become better.

 

 

easiest mobs in game to kill cos they do nothing unlesss your stupid enough to cuddle them. spray with frost then either headshot or foot shots on them. if you wanna melee them youll get hit from time to time. level redirection and you wont feel it. stop asking for nerfs. learn how to play so we dont all suffer thanks.

Thanks for being condescending pricks.

[NihilisticGoliath]

In the past, I thought that using the dodge-roll would be the most efficient way of dodging an ancient's wind-up attack, but since then I've figured something else out that works every time; when he starts charging at you, move away from him. When he's really close, you need to be sprinting - and when he starts doing the attack animation, simply use the slide move.

 

Other than that, I tend to just melee them when they come too close, get distance in between us and then pick them off from range.

 

 

Also, having one of the little Sentinel bots with a Freeze mod on it's weapon really works wonders.

[matrixEXO]

Thanks for the intel - I wasn't aware that it was possible to stagger or interrupt them without equipping some heavy stun or meleeing them.

 

Cheers, guys :)

 Stagger is hard with a gun. I tried so I know. Rather, I rely on the bad AI, melee or frost to get through most of them. Edited April 13, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Gemzo]

I find disruptor ancients to be unfun as well. They take away all your energy, all your shields, scramble your HUD, prevent you from regaining energy via pickups (in fact all energy orbs picked up while disrupted are destroyed), prevent you from regenerating shields, and probably stun you (or even knock you down if it was their melee attack). In my opinion, that is just way too many on-hit effects happening at once...

 

That being said, ancients aren't unbeatable. Others may or may not have already mentioned these tips, but I'm gonna throw these out there...

 

1. They're vulnerable to being slowed down by freeze damage. This cripples them pretty hard, if you can get shots off anyway.

2. They're weak to slashing damage like other infested, and are even stunned by it. Don't try stunning them with a blunt weapon or you'll have a bad time.

3a. If you can't dodge, make use of abilities that make you invincible. Just make sure you don't get caught with your pants down if the skill has some sort of recovery time afterward.

3b. Slash dash is pretty much an ancient hard-counter... It makes you invulnerable, gets you far away from them, and deals slashing damage to them at the low cost of 25 energy.

3c. Blade storm also does slashing damage (even with a blunt weapon) so it is great if you're up against overwhelming amounts of ancients (or just infested in general really).

Edited April 13, 2013 by Gemzo

[CookieStorm]

To the people saying "just use frost", is there a way to get a frost damage mod without having to rely on luck of the draw from drops?  I'm just asking because you say it as though everyone has it available to them and I would love to have that on my shotgun.

[TinyLesbianRobot]

I find disruptor ancients to be unfun as well. They take away all your energy, all your shields, scramble your HUD, prevent you from regaining energy via pickups (in fact all energy orbs picked up while disrupted are destroyed), prevent you from regenerating shields, and probably stun you (or even knock you down if it was their melee attack). In my opinion, that is just way too many on-hit effects happening at once...

 

That being said, ancients aren't unbeatable. Others may or may not have already mentioned these tips, but I'm gonna throw these out there...

 

1. They're vulnerable to being slowed down by freeze damage. This cripples them pretty hard, if you can get shots off anyway.

2. They're weak to slashing damage like other infested, and are even stunned by it. Don't try stunning them with a blunt weapon or you'll have a bad time.

3a. If you can't dodge, make use of abilities that make you invincible. Just make sure you don't get caught with your pants down if the skill has some sort of recovery time afterward.

3b. Slash dash is pretty much an ancient hard-counter... It makes you invulnerable, gets you far away from them, and deals slashing damage to them at the low cost of 25 energy.

3c. Blade storm also does slashing damage (even with a blunt weapon) so it is great if you're up against overwhelming amounts of ancients (or just infested in general really).

Out of curiosity, does the Gram deal blunt or slashing damage?  It's the melee weapon I'm working on right now, and I know it's supposed to be a sword, but in terms of the animations and sound effects, it behaves like a blunt weapon.

[Madotsuki]

Ancients aren't unbeatable, as mentioned above, though certain key things should be nerfed.

1. Their spawn rate, especially at lower levels. Anyone who played an Infested Defense mission knows that when the Ancients come, they come in half a dozen at once or more. Even on normal missions they spawn too much. I've encountered double Ancients on MERCURY, and over half a dozen Ancients over a very short span of time on Jupiter. They were Toxics too. Ancients really ought to not spawn more than Grineer Heavies. And give more xp too please.

2. Their melee attack needs to only hit the front. Because having their arms clip through their own bodies to hit behind themselves is stupid. Limiting the attack to the general direction they're facing would also give an alternative to dodging other than rolling rolling rolling.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Madotsuki

[Gemzo]

To the people saying "just use frost", is there a way to get a frost damage mod without having to rely on luck of the draw from drops?  I'm just asking because you say it as though everyone has it available to them and I would love to have that on my shotgun.

 

They're pretty rare. I've found 2 pistol freeze mods and 1 shotgun freeze mod and still no rifle or melee mod. Rumor has it that infestation missions drop them more often.

 

Out of curiosity, does the Gram deal blunt or slashing damage?  It's the melee weapon I'm working on right now, and I know it's supposed to be a sword, but in terms of the animations and sound effects, it behaves like a blunt weapon.

 

I'm pretty sure that the Gram does slashing damage, considering that the Scindo deals slashing damage.

[TinyLesbianRobot]

Ancients aren't unbeatable, as mentioned above, though certain key things should be nerfed.

1. Their spawn rate, especially at lower levels. Anyone who played an Infested Defense mission knows that when the Ancients come, they come in half a dozen at once or more. Even on normal missions they spawn too much. I've encountered double Ancients on MERCURY, and over half a dozen Ancients over a very short span of time on Jupiter. They were Toxics too. Ancients really ought to not spawn more than Grineer Heavies. And give more xp too please.

2. Their melee attack needs to only hit the front. Because having their arms clip through their own bodies to hit behind themselves is stupid. Limiting the attack to the general direction they're facing would also give an alternative to dodging other than rolling rolling rolling.

Exactly!  I'm not sure why people seem to think implying that a game in beta isn't finished is a crime.

Good point on the spawn rate, though.  Forgot to mention that.  I'd be fine duking it out with a towering monstrosity equipped with a very powerful and difficult-to-avoid attack a few times in a level, but never more than three or four at once.

[CaligoIllioneus]

The same spawn rate as Grineer heavies? If it spawned at that rate it should be buffed considerably, and it should have some sort of ranged attack, too.

 

So no, leave them how they are. It's fine that a lot of them spawn.

[CookieStorm]

They're pretty rare. I've found 2 pistol freeze mods and 1 shotgun freeze mod and still no rifle or melee mod. Rumor has it that infestation missions drop them more often.

 

So do infested missions until I get a random drop that makes infested missions doable?  Ok then!  Maybe I'll see if I can get into a group on that Jupiter defense mission.  Thanks, I have a clever scheme to try!

 

To the OP: The jump kick move (sprint > jump > crouch) is more powerful than an ancient's charge.  You can knock them flat on their backs with that even if they're running at you, but I wouldn't recommend using the down stab attack while they're on the ground.  They'll get up and smack you before you can finish and get away.  At least they did with Gram's animation.

[-GG-Sinevultu]

My way to confront them is just to unload 4-5 Hek shots, they go down pretty fast with that weapon ^^, my thought abouth them is just to kill'em quick, in this case an aggressive behavior works very fine :), if their attacks are difficult to avoid should be better to kill lthem before they have a chance to attack ^^.

[Psyked]

Thanks for being condescending pricks.

This is why we can't have nice things.

You start a thread stating that ancients need to be nerfed quite matter of factly.

I give you five options how to easily handle them and tell you that they are not the problem and that instead you need to become better.

You insult me in return, thank you.

When has it become condescending to tell someone that maybe they're not the master of the universe they think they are (or why would you be so butthurt over that)? The next time I try to give someone tips I'll make sure to be extra careful with my wording to not hurt their precious feelings, maybe send them some flowers too.

You're quite welcome, have a nice day.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Psyked

[TinyLesbianRobot]

This is why we can't have nice things.

You start a thread stating that ancients need to be nerfed quite matter of factly.

I give you five options how to easily handle them and tell you that they are not the problem and that instead you need to become better.

You insult me in return, thank you.

When has it become condescending to tell someone that maybe they're not the master of the universe they think they are (or why would you be so butthurt over that)? The next time I try to give someone tips I'll make sure to be extra careful with my wording to not hurt their precious feelings, maybe send them some flowers too.

You're quite welcome, have a nice day.

If you're incapable of seeing how insulting your comment was then you need to seriously re-evaluate your social tendencies.

[Psyked]

Enlighten me.

[Madotsuki]

My way to confront them is just to unload 4-5 Hek shots, they go down pretty fast with that weapon ^^, my thought abouth them is just to kill'em quick, in this case an aggressive behavior works very fine :), if their attacks are difficult to avoid should be better to kill lthem before they have a chance to attack ^^.

Hek is a Mastery Rank 4 weapon. Not everyone has a Hek to use. And "killing it before it can do anything" isn't even an actual strategy, it's as much a strategy as "have more DPS than the boss".

The same spawn rate as Grineer heavies? If it spawned at that rate it should be buffed considerably, and it should have some sort of ranged attack, too.

So no, leave them how they are. It's fine that a lot of them spawn.

Oh, it's you again. Wonderful. And might I add that Heavies, despite spawning less than Ancients, are EASIER to kill than Ancients, and give significantly MORE xp? Meh, I bet you'll say "THEN BUFF THE HEAVIES". Having frequent double Ancients is fine on the harder levels, or occasional triple Ancients even if it's on the Phorid planet or beyond. But there are currently at least a dozen strewn out on even a Mercury-level Infested mission, with some later missions having (and i counted) 20-30 Ancients, not even counting the Defense ones. And they are nothing but bullet sponges anyway, with either an instant energy+shield wipe on hit, or instant health damage on proximity. They're not fun. They're just annoying. Oh and, ranged attacks should be implemented on a new "uncommon" Infested unit (launching spikes or something), not Ancients.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Madotsuki

[TinyLesbianRobot]

Enlighten me.

"You have tons of options but you don't use them apparently. They don't need a nerf, you need to become better."

I don't know what part of the word 'condescending' you don't understand.

Would you honestly like to have someone say that to you?  Do I need to spell out for you what you're actually saying here?

"Look at the little idiot, he's got all these options but he's too stupid/noobly to notice any of them."

If you seriously aren't aware that this is how you're coming across, then I recommend reading your posts out loud to yourself before finalizing them.  You might avoid unnecessary confrontations in the future.  

Plenty of other people in this thread offered helpful advice without being either dismissive or condescending.  You were both.  Perhaps you aught to take a few queues from them.

I'm not interested in continuing this argument, so I won't be replying further.

Edited April 13, 2013 by WingedAnomaly