Story4 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) So this is a comparison to show you why the Warframe F2P model is not perfect, even if alot of people on this forum will tell you that it is. So Warframe currently is like being able to get a free car, anytime you want. But this car only has the driver's seat, no airconditioning and the only color available is brown. If you want more seats, air-conditioning or a different color you have to pay for it. Problem is, since let's say that you have a family of 4 all over 18, you'd need 4 seats, 1 isn't enough. But since the car is free anyway, it will be much more better to just get another 3 cars, instead of purchasing 3 seats, since he cars you can get for free. This is a comparison with the slots, since even if you can only get 4 WF slots you can make 3 more accounts and have no problem with slots anymore. It worked in closed-beta because you couldn't make more accounts, but now sicne it went open you can make as many as you want and have as many slots as you want without paying a dime. Instead people who have invested their time in the game only get 4-5 slots. Continuing with the car comparison, if every car had 4 free seats instead of just 1, the family will get attatched to the car over time because now they can all drive together. When they see that other people have different colored cars than the others, the family of warframes will also want to buy some colors to personalize their much-beloved car so that it can be different from the others. This is a comparison for the colors/skins that are already in the game and that should be more, only purchasable with platinum. Also i can make a comparison about the air-conditioning, spoilers etc. but i hope that you get my point. How many of you didn't want a different color for a phone or a laptop just to appear more stilish compared to the other people? In case you didn't get it, the car is the account. I really hope that you guys get my point, please don't just read the title and comment. I think that the comparison explains why the current F2P model has it's faults and is pretty abusable. I think that the ways to make it better are more colors/skins only purchasable with platinum, trading system only available to those who pay even a little bit(TF2 rip-off, yey!), more/all slots available to free players so that they invest time in building their account so that they will buy more stuff for it. EDIT: BTW I'm not making DE do anything, i'm just pointing out the faults. Nothing wrong with that is it? Edited April 13, 2013 by Story4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FluffyBunnySlippers Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Family are happy with their car...for now. However it seems a new car showroom just opened down the street, also giving away free cars. These cars might not be any better than the car the family already has, but they are newer and ooh shiny. Seeing as how the family have no real investment tied up in their current car beyond the time they spent driving it, they just nip across to the new showroom and pick up their new car. Now the family have to decide which car they are going to use. Either way the cars are free but it's a toss-up as to which one they keep. The current model might not be perfect, but it's not all doom and gloom either. ;) Time investment can get you so far, but time and money investment will get you further. So many marketing ploys rely on this, it's nothing new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razylich Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) So this is a comparison to show you why the Warframe F2P model is not perfect, even if alot of people on this forum will tell you that it is. So Warframe currently is like being able to get a free car, anytime you want. But this car only has the driver's seat, no airconditioning and the only color available is brown. If you want more seats, air-conditioning or a different color you have to pay for it. Problem is, since let's say that you have a family of 4 all over 18, you'd need 4 seats, 1 isn't enough. But since the car is free anyway, it will be much more better to just get another 3 cars, instead of purchasing 3 seats, since he cars you can get for free. This is a comparison with the slots, since even if you can only get 4 WF slots you can make 3 more accounts and have no problem with slots anymore. It worked in closed-beta because you couldn't make more accounts, but now sicne it went open you can make as many as you want and have as many slots as you want without paying a dime. Instead people who have invested their time in the game only get 4-5 slots. Continuing with the car comparison, if every car had 4 free seats instead of just 1, the family will get attatched to the car over time because now they can all drive together. When they see that other people have different colored cars than the others, the family of warframes will also want to buy some colors to personalize their much-beloved car so that it can be different from the others. This is a comparison for the colors/skins that are already in the game and that should be more, only purchasable with platinum. Also i can make a comparison about the air-conditioning, spoilers etc. but i hope that you get my point. How many of you didn't want a different color for a phone or a laptop just to appear more stilish compared to the other people? In case you didn't get it, the car is the account. I really hope that you guys get my point, please don't just read the title and comment. I think that the comparison explains why the current F2P model has it's faults and is pretty abusable. I think that the ways to make it better are more colors/skins only purchasable with platinum, trading system only available to those who pay even a little bit(TF2 rip-off, yey!), more/all slots available to free players so that they invest time in building their account so that they will buy more stuff for it. Making a new account for every warframe would mean grinding weapons, mods, sentinels, etc. all over again. (Which would take a reeeeeaaally long time, probably so long that you could get a job, earn your monthly payment, quit the job, buy some platinum and get those slots in that same amount of time) Edited April 13, 2013 by razylich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarWind Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 This metaphor *drives* me crazy. Okay, enough joking, let's get down to business ... and defeat the huns. =) Yes, you could create 10 accounts to get free 'Frame slots. If you REALLY cannot afford $10 to buy some slots (Or Warframes, which come with a free slot) then you should be happy that you can experience every Warframe for free, by using your 10 accounts. That said, I personally am completely okay with dropping $20 on a game that I have just spent 2 weeks (Two blissful Ninja weeks) playing. I think that the target audience here is people like myself. Those that want to try the game, fall in love with it, and then make small purchases every month or so to enhance their experience or skip-the-grind on new content. That said, free players are great to have around. They provide an endless number of friends for paying players, and ensure that the game is always well populated. They also spread word about the game, even if it's just someone asking "Whatchaplayin'?" and you answering "Warframe". F2Players are great, but they have to realize one thing: You are not a paying customer. Think of this like a car. Not a car you own, but a Taxi Cab. You may ride this Taxi FOR FREE! However, you cannot request destinations, request changes to the radio, or complain about Air Conditioning being a mite bit too cold. Other people get in the Taxi, pay the driver, and ask for a destination. You can now tag along if that place is close to where you are going, or you can wait for another Taxi and another Paying Customer. No matter what, you will never be asked to leave so a paying customer can get in. You may get into a Taxi with no Paying Customer, but the Taxi will just drive around town in pre-set pattern. Using knowledge of these patterns, you can get where you are going (Or close to it) for free, but it will cost you time. You have to remember, most people who play this game can spare $10. Digital Extremes needs their money, and so they need small and important ways to encourage minimum spending. You should just be happy to have an amazing free Taxi, which gets you out of the rain. Also, we apparently have benevolent Taxi overlord CEOs who listen to the free riders and establish new routes and add more free taxis for them to use. I really hope you get my point, please don't just assume I'm saying "You're wrong" and respond angrily. The 'faults' in the F2P micro-transaction system that you're talking about? Those are the way the game survives. It will never be a "perfect" system. But it can and is a "good enough" system that allows F2Players to do what they want (Nearly anything) while also incentivizing people to place a bit of their disposable income with the game's creators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FluffyBunnySlippers Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 LunarWind, please have a +1 for one of the best responses I've read (pun notwithstanding) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl_Facehugger Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Yeah you can make ten accounts or whatever to circumvent the slot limit, but for each account you're going to have to unlock all the systems again, unlock all your favorite weapons (many of which have a level restriction!), and generally spend a huge amount of time grinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambarpowder Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 While many feel *including me* that the current model is bullS#&$, such posts will not help. DE is stubborn; they will make money in their own way. Good thing for me is, I could buy slots because I got a free 100 plat bribe for the screwup messing the mod system over. ... Ok, that was a bit harsh. Currently my only problem with the system is slots. That is a very big problem, but that doesn't represent the faults of the whole system. DE has made some serious $&*^ moves with their F2P model, and they'll probably keep at it, but on the whole they're not that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasmir Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 becouse 20 bucks for more slots and potatoes its too much..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Story4 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 Lunarwind, your example isn't good, because i can choose where the taxi goes, it's just that all the warframe family can't all go in it! They have to take it one at a time, same thing that happens with multiple accounts. If your example was good for the game it would mean that i can't go on which planet i want and i would only pick at random which planet to play which is not true. If you want to make examples that have no bearing on the real game that is your prerogative, but it's not good for this one. Family are happy with their car...for now. However it seems a new car showroom just opened down the street, also giving away free cars. These cars might not be any better than the car the family already has, but they are newer and ooh shiny. Seeing as how the family have no real investment tied up in their current car beyond the time they spent driving it, they just nip across to the new showroom and pick up their new car. Now the family have to decide which car they are going to use. Either way the cars are free but it's a toss-up as to which one they keep. The current model might not be perfect, but it's not all doom and gloom either. ;) Time investment can get you so far, but time and money investment will get you further. So many marketing ploys rely on this, it's nothing new. If you pick another car then it's another game, which is a whole different thing. Car=game account. If there is a totaly different car then we are talking about an account on another game. Maybe one which gives you all the seats from the begining but only goes at max 60 mph. @razzylich you have to grind new weapons and warframes anyway, what difference does it make if it is on another account or this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Story4 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 Yeah you can make ten accounts or whatever to circumvent the slot limit, but for each account you're going to have to unlock all the systems again, unlock all your favorite weapons (many of which have a level restriction!), and generally spend a huge amount of time grinding. Since you have multiple accounts, you can go back to them to play to the warframe that you like or the warframe that you like. It would be like having 12 slots with 12 different warframes just on different accoutns and you login on the one that you want, so you don't have to regrind everything again, unless you want a warframe and a warframe from another account but then you can just sell a previous weapon and grind it again, which for weapons is not a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deaths.Reap3r Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Make this into a non-metaphor topic, and then it would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarWind Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) Lunarwind, your example isn't good, because i can choose where the taxi goes, it's just that all the warframe family can't all go in it! They have to take it one at a time, same thing that happens with multiple accounts. If your example was good for the game it would mean that i can't go on which planet i want and i would only pick at random which planet to play which is not true. If you want to make examples that have no bearing on the real game that is your prerogative, but it's not good for this one. I don't think you understood me. I'm not using your metaphor of seat space and the family of Warframes (Lol, family of warframes). I'm using a new metaphor to represent F2P games in general. Warframe is an amazing game to be a free player in. You never have to look at someone playing Frost and say "I can never have that, that's a platinum frame. See its awesome abilities? I can never use them. Instead, you can spend the time and effort, and *Earn* that Frost frame! Additionally, platinum items are not better than free items. Your new Frost that you earned by crafting, it can be just as good as mine that I bought with platinum. You have the same HP, shields, armor, all basic stats. Same look too. The only difference is mod slots through an Orokin Reactor. But wait, there's more (free) stuff!! You can get that reactor for free if you're lucky. I got one as my first ever 7-day login reward. DE almost always puts up a 12hour alert after every live stream, which drops an Orokin Catalyst BP. These are all examples of why DE has made a great F2P environment. Not the best, sure, but a good one. ****************** As an aside, why don't you spend the money to get a few Warframe slots? Do you live in a country where you cannot use the Steam Store? Do you not have a credit card, or a bank account? Are you really THAT poor? Please remember, I'm saying this as a fellow Tenno, a friend. I'm trying to help you enjoy Warframe as much as possible, because I enjoy it and believe that everyone should have that same chance. Edited April 13, 2013 by LunarWind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_Matthew_9 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 The car to game comparing, Oh man you're a creative one, haha. That was so spot on it makes me wonder how long it took you to write. But the taxi idea... Dude! playing along to prove wrong? genius ;L Even though this topic does not interest me, I want to stick around just to see the stuff you guys can come up with ;L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FluffyBunnySlippers Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 If you pick another car then it's another game, which is a whole different thing. Car=game account. If there is a totaly different car then we are talking about an account on another game. Maybe one which gives you all the seats from the begining but only goes at max 60 mph. That was kind of my point. If Warframe is even remotely successful there will be spin-offs and/ or copies. Likely to be F2P also. The more invested in this game someone is, the more likely they are to stick with it, they may play both, but once you put enough money into something it's that much harder to let go. As I said, this is well known in marketing. (And psychology for that matter). Either way we obviously disagree and I have no wish to get into a sparring match with anyone. We're both players and I hope we meet up in-game some day and have a blast :) For my part, I've invested as much money into this game as I'm going to until I see which direction DE take with future updates and/ or the RC. I have some minor issues with the pricing structure (namely the weapon prices in plat) and I'll wait to see how that pans out once DE have had the time to get a good overview of purchase trends among the player base. Until then I'll play what I can with what I've got. If I have to rely on RNG, so be it....if this becomes overly irritating, there are other games out there I can play. Peace, and good times to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayflower Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) If the frame slots were free beyond the 2, what would DE have left to sell that people would actually want? I don't think there are many who'd want more than 4 frames permanently, personally I have 4 slots (your account starts with 50 freebie platinum and you can buy 2 extra frame slots with those, you know). I'm currently teetering on what frames I want to keep, and there seems to be only 3-4 of them total, the rest I've gone through just for mastery levels. And seriously, you don't need to become a founder (20$) to get platinum, you can get it for 10$ too if you look at actually just getting platinum and not the founders packs. You already get So Much for free, this is baffling that you want Everything for free, or is that 10$ contribution really that hard to pull off for a game you enjoy? Edited April 13, 2013 by Mayflower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarWind Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Also, if I remember correctly, DE_Steve said something about Mastery rank = Warframe and Weapon slots. So there may be a future filled with free (but limited) slots for warframes and weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZezXion Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 trading system only available to those who pay even a little bit You couldn't have said something more horrible for a game. Trading should be open to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphticon Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 This F2P model is flawed, yes but nothing can be perfect, we're all humans after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Story4 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) You couldn't have said something more horrible for a game. Trading should be open to all. Mhm ok, then why does TF2 use it? Edited April 13, 2013 by Story4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Story4 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 If you have 3 accounts you can have 12 slots and all weapon slots for no money at all. If you don't pay for the game you are going to grind anyway and if on the 3 accounts your first warframe is on the 1st excalibur, on the 2nd mag and on the third loki then your grinding will be even more reduced because you will have all those 3 warframes for free and you can fill up the rest of the slots with the other warframes. I really don't get why people don't understand that it is not fair mostly for the guys that pay for slots and no problem at all for the ones who play for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinna Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Most games that fail, have done so because something marred them, and drove people away. I think for Warframe, its going to be the cash shop. Lets start with the warframes themselves. A warframe is this game's version of a class. In many other F2P games, the classes are either free, with the slots limited, or the classes are paid, but fairly cheap, to encourage people to buy and try them all out. This game does the opposite. Many will not pay the $15-25 that most of the frames cost in hopes that they will like it. Furthermore, with the very limited choices of frames to start with, if someone isn't going to pay the $15-25, and doesn't like the starter frames...thats one less potential customer that may have bought something else. I believe the "less is more" philosophy would work here. Cheaper frames means less income per purchase, but you would likely see far more purchases. Also, since you only get to start with one frame, you should be able to pick any frame you want to start with. An enjoyable starting experience would further encourage people to buy something because they like the game. I believe weapons fall into the same category as frames, and suffer the same problem, so I will not give them their own category. Next up "equipment". I use the quotes, since some of it isn't really equipment, but is customization options, boosts, and unfortunately what I consider the pay to win items, the Orokin items. Lets start with the customization options. These tend to be a good thing to have in a store, since they don't really add or take away anything from the game, and its really just a "I like this, so I'll get it item". Sometimes, these are even just bought to help support a game you like. I've personally bought outfits in another game, just because they were kinda cool, and I wanted to support them so they'd keep up the good work. On the flip side, however, these items need to be fairly cheap to work, or be rather special and well designed. 5 dollars for essentially a different hex code (color) isn't really worth it. These should be free, since the game lacks any real customization otherwise. Then, you could create more helmets and skins for the warframes that could be sold for reasonable prices. Moving onto boosts, I'm honestly not going to say much about them except this. Boosts sit on a fine line between convience and pay to win, and the balancing act of making sure it never crosses that line. Then we have the lotto mod boxes, which isn't anything new for a F2P game. Though in terms of income, they are hit and miss, and aren't usually the best thing to rely on for sales. And finally, the Orokin items, the one thing that seems to have no other purpose then pay to win. Now, this game has no PvP, but a pay to win item can still exist. And while this item can be crafted if you happen to get the blueprint, I believe this should be an earned item, with no way to just buy one. But that is just my 2 cents on items of that category. In closing, I suppose I have what may be a revelation for some, and not a surprise for others. Many games that go F2P do see increased income, for a time. What they don't tell you, however, is that the player base tends to shrink, until a point that they do stop making all that money. F2P, for most games, is like a disease of sorts. While "medication" can keep it running for awhile, it will eventually wither, and then die. The unfortunate part is, many companies only look short term, and at their wallets, not at the long term and their fans. There have been other beta games, with a ton of people playing and as soon as the cash shop was released, with the prices, players just started to disappear, turning what use to be a packed and sometimes laggy zone, into a ghost town of lonliness. This game has potential, and I would like to see it realize that potential, but I feel that, as of now, it will be held back, at least in part, by the cash shop as it currently is. Of course, some will say its fine. Likely the same people that thought it was fine over at EA, despite the CEO now being essentially forced to resign, and the company being voted the worst in the US for 2 years running. Fandom only goes so far, happy customers goes further. That's my 2 cents, as objectively as I was able to put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatRefrigerator Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 I like my car, it has 4 seats, plenty of colors, and TONS OF GUNS BRISTLING OUT OF IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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