[Suggestion] Solution For Rushers And Explorers

[lokozar]

Hi dear DE team,

 

I know this is a topic that is much talked about and I already mentioned my suggestion in another thread. However, said thread isn't exactly fit to focus on this very suggestion, so I decided to start a new one in order to keep it constructive. At least I hope so. Let me begin by explaining why recent changes are not really a solution.

 

 

7.7.3 - Half the team must be at the extraction point (EP) to finish the mission. No problem solver.

 

Example 1

 

- 2 player team

- 1 player rushes to the EP

- half the team is in the EP, the timer starts

 

-> rusher problem is not solved

 

Example 2

 

- 3 player team

- question: Since this is an uneven number, what is half the team?

- assumption 1: It's 1 player (see Example 1, rusher problem is not solved)

- assumption 2: It's 2 players (So, it would only take one more rusher in the team. Chances are big that this occurs.)

 

-> rusher problem is not solved

 

Example 3

 

- 4 player team

- 2 players rush to the EP, the timer starts (Again, it would only need one more rusher in the team.)

 

-> rusher problem is not solved

 

 

So, what do we do instead?

 

 

Solution: Get rid of the timer and let people decide.

 

The main problem is, that people with different playstyles are thrown together here. They most likely won't listen to or care for each other. So, it would be reasonable to let them decide how they want to play a match. You could separate them by giving them the option to choose a playstyle beforehand, thus finding like-minded players (That would require some kind of lobby or a checkbox that is rgarded by the matchmaking system.). Or you get rid of the timer and let everyone decide for himself, when the match is over.

 

Think about it, you already have such an option in defense missions and it works well. I imagine that anyone who enters the EP can decide for himself whether he wants to end the match or not. Let's get back to the examples.

 

Example 1

 

- match starts (difficulty is scaling for 2 players)

- player 1 rushes to the EP

- player 2 explores the area

- player 1 decides he is done (He hits the "extract now" button and leaves the match.)

- match is scaling down for 1 player

- After some time player 2 decides he is done, runs to the EP and gets out.

 

Example 2

 

- match scales for 3 players

- player 1 and 2 rush ahead and end the mission

- player 3 still explores

- match scales down for 1 player

 

Example 3

 

- match scales for 4 players

- player 1, 2, 3 explore

- player 4 rushes, ends mission, gets extracted

- match scales down for 3 players

 

And so on. I think you get the idea.

 

Now, at any given time there would be the possibility for other players to step in, as soon as a rusher has left the match. The rusher himself however is denied to rejoin the same match or, as an alternative, is denied every bonus at the end. So no one can exploit one and the same match.

 

This way both, rushers as well as explorers, could get along in every match, since everyone can decide his own pace. To each his own. I'm not saying, this suggestions would get rid of idiots / griefers, but it would ease the tension between both sides of honest players for sure. I'm also not saying this suggestion is perfect. It's open for ideas and improvements.

 

In any case, I hope you consider it

 

Thanks for reading.

 

 

PS:

I apologize for any inconvenience while reading this post. English isn't my native language.

Edited April 13, 2013 by lokozar

[Ambience]

Another option would be make tiers. I will explain, so before you even start playing you should have the option to pick rusher or explorer matchmaking tiers. This will put rushers with rushers and explorers with explorers. This way people will get to be with likeminded people without worrying about if friends or clan mates are online or not.

 

In addition, the rusher tier will start the timer after ONE person makes it to the end. The explorer tier would require the whole team OR have the option to leave as you suggested. The point of this would be to bring people with like minds together (community aspect) rather than having a mixed group choose to leave or stay.

[MegaWuchi]

Just to clarify, in a team of 3 the game will take 2 as the half.

[plznohurtme]

I think that's a step in the right direction for sure, though I'm not really sure how they'd go about preventing rejoining the same match (as you can do this in defense maps).  While I'm not sure of any specific solution being the winner something that appeases both would be good, but the one thing that really should go is being penalized if you do not make it close enough to the exit.  Just happened to me where I stopped to actually kill stuff (not exploring) and ended up far enough behind (not to mention team not killing everything along the way, which blows my mind because it's not like it takes time) that I wasn't able to get close enough to the exit to get the credit reward.

 

Perhaps a better solution is to tie in some sort of value to actually clearing what is between you and the exit: eg turn all the missions into an extermination after the objectives have been completed.  So long as this could be done in a manner that just ended up with everything having to be killed on the way out without backtracking I think this might prevent a decent amount of the annoying problems.  Tie successful mission completion into that and the only way "rushers" actually get a completion bonus is by killing everything.  

 

These bad experiences for me have been minimal, and most of the time people don't get really separated and for the most part stick together or come back if they do get ahead and everyone isn't there.  Right now though it's kind of a double slap... not only do you get left behind when you're eliminating enemies between you and the exit, but you also get denied the completion bonus.  At the very least the denial of completion bonus needs to end.

[lokozar]

Another option would be make tiers. I will explain, so before you even start playing you should have the option to pick rusher or explorer matchmaking tiers. This will put rushers with rushers and explorers with explorers. This way people will get to be with likeminded people without worrying about if friends or clan mates are online or not.

 

In addition, the rusher tier will start the timer after ONE person makes it to the end. The explorer tier would require the whole team OR have the option to leave as you suggested. The point of this would be to bring people with like minds together (community aspect) rather than having a mixed group choose to leave or stay.

 

Yes, essentially that was what I meant by pointing at a lobby or checkbox system. It would be one solution. However one that would take more time, I suppose.

 

Just to clarify, in a team of 3 the game will take 2 as the half.

 

I really wondered. Thank you! :)

 

I think that's a step in the right direction for sure, though I'm not really sure how they'd go about preventing rejoining the same match (as you can do this in defense maps).  While I'm not sure of any specific solution being the winner something that appeases both would be good, but the one thing that really should go is being penalized if you do not make it close enough to the exit.  Just happened to me where I stopped to actually kill stuff (not exploring) and ended up far enough behind (not to mention team not killing everything along the way, which blows my mind because it's not like it takes time) that I wasn't able to get close enough to the exit to get the credit reward.

 

Perhaps a better solution is to tie in some sort of value to actually clearing what is between you and the exit: eg turn all the missions into an extermination after the objectives have been completed.  So long as this could be done in a manner that just ended up with everything having to be killed on the way out without backtracking I think this might prevent a decent amount of the annoying problems.  Tie successful mission completion into that and the only way "rushers" actually get a completion bonus is by killing everything.  

 

These bad experiences for me have been minimal, and most of the time people don't get really separated and for the most part stick together or come back if they do get ahead and everyone isn't there.  Right now though it's kind of a double slap... not only do you get left behind when you're eliminating enemies between you and the exit, but you also get denied the completion bonus.  At the very least the denial of completion bonus needs to end.

 

It is my understanding, that there are a lot of mission types in which enemies are spawning ad infinitum. Would it be possible to switch to exterminate? Maybe, if the mission then limits the numbers. However, what would keep a rusher from standing at the extraction point while the rest of the team is forced to kill remaining foes? You would have to take some kind of kill ratio into account, to make sure the rusher participates. But that would throw up other problems, such as people that honestly try but can't kill enough enemies and thus fail to gain the bonus. I imagine, that'll be especially hard for newbies.

Edited April 13, 2013 by lokozar

[KenseiSeraph]

It is my understanding, that there are a lot of mission types in which enemies are spawning ad infinitum. Would it be possible to switch to exterminate? Maybe, if the mission then limits the numbers. However, what would keep a rusher from standing at the extraction point while the rest of the team is forced to kill remaining foes? You would have to take some kind of kill ratio into account, to make sure the rusher participates. But that would throw up other problems, such as people that honestly try but can't kill enough enemies and thus fail to gain the bonus. I imagine, that'll be especially hard for newbies.

 

Well the game already records the % damage dealt by each player so as long as you're able to land hits then it may be viable even if you don't get very many kills.

 

Also I'd like for a Stealth mode to be added as trying to stealth a level only to have someone join and then just charge up to the closest enemy makes stealthing nearly impossible, and this is a co-op game so it'd detract from the play experience if you had to solo the game if you want to stealth through a map.

[lokozar]

Well the game already records the % damage dealt by each player so as long as you're able to land hits then it may be viable even if you don't get very many kills.

 

Also I'd like for a Stealth mode to be added as trying to stealth a level only to have someone join and then just charge up to the closest enemy makes stealthing nearly impossible, and this is a co-op game so it'd detract from the play experience if you had to solo the game if you want to stealth through a map.

 

Yes, but then the rusher blazes through the level, hits some of the oponents, kills some, while keep on running and then gets his bonus in the end. The problem would persist. I think, it's not viable to bind the bonus to a definite number of kills, damage or percentage. Rushers just would try to achieve these numbers and ignore the rest. At least, if the rusher could exit the match at the extraction point, the mission would scale down for the remaining players. Of course, that wouldn't prevent griefers from standing there, deliberately keeping the match on a higher scale. But as said before, this suggestion doesn't get rid of idiots. I think no solution ever will. ^^'

 

As for the stealth mode, yes you're right. If I remember correctly one of the devs mentioned this problem in the last livestream. They are aware of that and try to find solutions. Again, a lobby or checkbox system would help here. Being able to announce the style or a match beforehand would help a lot to find like-minded players.

Edited April 14, 2013 by lokozar

[Ambience]

Yes, essentially that was what I meant by pointing at a lobby or checkbox system. It would be one solution. However one that would take more time, I suppose.

 

 

I would prefer something very decent that was discussed, and if it means it will take time then I am willing to wait for it. Of course this is assuming DE likes this idea and can do it. All good things come for those who wait (usually XD).

[Odog4ever]

Well the game already records the % damage dealt by each player so as long as you're able to land hits then it may be viable even if you don't get very many kills.

 

Also I'd like for a Stealth mode to be added as trying to stealth a level only to have someone join and then just charge up to the closest enemy makes stealthing nearly impossible, and this is a co-op game so it'd detract from the play experience if you had to solo the game if you want to stealth through a map.

 Wait, what? Why are you not switched to "solo" or "private" if you're trying to stealth a level? Not having another player "ruin" your experience is built into the game by default...When I really want to farm for mats that dont't drop from bosses, I'm in solo mode so I can search every nook and granny at my own speed. I think the new system, requiring half the team is a step in the right direction. Anything more than that will further segregate the player base.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Odog4ever

[Gaiters]

I agree with the op, that's what they should do.

The only alternative I see to stop this 'rushing' problem is to get rid of the /!\ sign on the map, it would make matches take considerably longer and they could technically increase the credit rewards for each mission if it were removed.

[plznohurtme]

It is my understanding, that there are a lot of mission types in which enemies are spawning ad infinitum. Would it be possible to switch to exterminate? Maybe, if the mission then limits the numbers. However, what would keep a rusher from standing at the extraction point while the rest of the team is forced to kill remaining foes? You would have to take some kind of kill ratio into account, to make sure the rusher participates. But that would throw up other problems, such as people that honestly try but can't kill enough enemies and thus fail to gain the bonus. I imagine, that'll be especially hard for newbies.

 

I would rather someone had to stand around and wait than them leaving and screwing everyone else over (as it is right now).  Again the biggest issue comes down to the fact that with the current system it doesn't appear that DE has a way of easily blocking someone from rejoining a game.  I don't know how much trouble that would be to implement seeing as they would have to do it on a case by case basis (though I'd imagine it would be possible with session ids etc) where it only triggers upon completion of a mission, but not on defense etc etc.  If it's easily possible for them to do this, then by all means I think that's definitely the most elegant solution and best thing for everyone, my suggestion was just using currently in place mechanics to partly resolve the problem at hand.

 

As for whether or not they can switch to exterminate, very easily, missions change objectives on the fly sometimes and also it's possible to get a second half of a mission that is kill everything.

Edited April 14, 2013 by plznohurtme

[touchmyoldsnake]

You want a solution to keep people from rushing?

 

Make it hard!  Make it require teamwork!  This will solve the rushing problem, wash away the grindiness feeling the game has, and encourage teamwork, something this game is meant to do, because it's, um, co-op?

[Ambience]

You want a solution to keep people from rushing?

 

Make it hard!  Make it require teamwork!  This will solve the rushing problem, wash away the grindiness feeling the game has, and encourage teamwork, something this game is meant to do, because it's, um, co-op?

 

That's not a solution. No matter what, there will be people who just want to farm fast, or get it over with to gain something.

 

Also, one can't JUST make it harder and force requirement to teamwork. It has to have replay value. Currently all the missions are "linear feeling" after a few runs. Needs better AI for mobs and bosses, and more repayable mission types that get everyone to do things as a group so "team work" is implemented. Furthermore, the game needs end game intensive...something to keep the players active after achieving what they want. A goal for those grinders, replay value for those who like repayable content, a challenge for those who like to challenge themselves.

[scrollscripter]

Increasing the drop rate if every warframe is in the same tile and decreasing it per warframe missing from the tile  would encourage more teamwork. If drop rate is adjusted per tile, rushers(tiles closer to goal) if alone can receive nearly nothing.Also making rare mods and materials that only spawn in out of the way hidden chests would encourage exploration. 

[Thingofmyth]

Honestly I rush all the time, but I wait for my team b4 starting the timer. It's called manners and some people should learn them :)

[holdenagincourt]

Until the global extraction timer goes away and people can just extract independently, I will never be playing PUGs.

 

Getting jack all for doing my share of the work in a 2900 credit event mission today--because I was playing a slow frame and got lost in one of the huge new Corpus planetside tiles--drove that lesson home to me.

Edited April 14, 2013 by holdenagincourt

[Reedman]

Example 2 - Assumption 2.
If 2 players in a team of 3 make it to the end with one member off exploring, the exploring member appears to be the problem in that scenario and the countdown is already the solution. The other examples I can see an issue though for other players.

I do like the idea of the extract now option with a menu like defence. Good idea.

[Odog4ever]

I agree with the op, that's what they should do.The only alternative I see to stop this 'rushing' problem is to get rid of the /!\ sign on the map, it would make matches take considerably longer and they could technically increase the credit rewards for each mission if it were removed.

 

That sounds horrible. The day they remove the way point it the day I stop playing Warframe. I don't want each mission to take 20+ minutes. If DE wanted the missions to take longer they would make each map bigger but they don't because that's not the type of game they are striving to make.

It's bad enough when I get lost because the stupid way point is pointing somewhere I can't get to or doesn't indicate if the path is above or below my current position. Missed getting to extraction on time a few time because of that. I think its pretty clear that the DE though it was a good idea to include a way point in the first place...

Edited April 14, 2013 by Odog4ever

[fackPGI]

Hi dear DE team,

 

I know this is a topic that is much talked about and I already mentioned my suggestion in another thread. However, said thread isn't exactly fit to focus on this very suggestion, so I decided to start a new one in order to keep it constructive. At least I hope so. Let me begin by explaining why recent changes are not really a solution.

 

 

7.7.3 - Half the team must be at the extraction point (EP) to finish the mission. No problem solver.

 

Example 1

 

- 2 player team

- 1 player rushes to the EP

- half the team is in the EP, the timer starts

 

-> rusher problem is not solved

 

Example 2

 

- 3 player team

- question: Since this is an uneven number, what is half the team?

- assumption 1: It's 1 player (see Example 1, rusher problem is not solved)

- assumption 2: It's 2 players (So, it would only take one more rusher in the team. Chances are big that this occurs.)

 

-> rusher problem is not solved

 

Example 3

 

- 4 player team

- 2 players rush to the EP, the timer starts (Again, it would only need one more rusher in the team.)

 

-> rusher problem is not solved

 

 

So, what do we do instead?

 

 

Solution: Get rid of the timer and let people decide.

 

The main problem is, that people with different playstyles are thrown together here. They most likely won't listen to or care for each other. So, it would be reasonable to let them decide how they want to play a match. You could separate them by giving them the option to choose a playstyle beforehand, thus finding like-minded players (That would require some kind of lobby or a checkbox that is rgarded by the matchmaking system.). Or you get rid of the timer and let everyone decide for himself, when the match is over.

 

Think about it, you already have such an option in defense missions and it works well. I imagine that anyone who enters the EP can decide for himself whether he wants to end the match or not. Let's get back to the examples.

 

Example 1

 

- match starts (difficulty is scaling for 2 players)

- player 1 rushes to the EP

- player 2 explores the area

- player 1 decides he is done (He hits the "extract now" button and leaves the match.)

- match is scaling down for 1 player

- After some time player 2 decides he is done, runs to the EP and gets out.

 

Example 2

 

- match scales for 3 players

- player 1 and 2 rush ahead and end the mission

- player 3 still explores

- match scales down for 1 player

 

Example 3

 

- match scales for 4 players

- player 1, 2, 3 explore

- player 4 rushes, ends mission, gets extracted

- match scales down for 3 players

 

And so on. I think you get the idea.

 

Now, at any given time there would be the possibility for other players to step in, as soon as a rusher has left the match. The rusher himself however is denied to rejoin the same match or, as an alternative, is denied every bonus at the end. So no one can exploit one and the same match.

 

This way both, rushers as well as explorers, could get along in every match, since everyone can decide his own pace. To each his own. I'm not saying, this suggestions would get rid of idiots / griefers, but it would ease the tension between both sides of honest players for sure. I'm also not saying this suggestion is perfect. It's open for ideas and improvements.

 

In any case, I hope you consider it

 

Thanks for reading.

 

 

PS:

I apologize for any inconvenience while reading this post. English isn't my native language.

 

Playing online is to have fun playing together other players, and ussaly its achiving primary objective.Solution , play together people you know, Friends.Solution , play single player, you can epxlore evrything you want and even spend 1 entire day in the map if you need.

[Kaiku]

Voting for "extract now" button.

 

This would also give a chance for a new player to join who might not be a rusher.

[nicopopolis]

I know I keep saying this but it keeps seeming to get ignored.

 

Why not make missions where you rush and missions where you explore?  In a rush mission the goal is to clear the mission as quickly as possible.  No mods or matts drop off of enemies.  All rewards are at the end of the mission.  In a search mission you explore the area looking for a datamass or something that's hidden in a locker or being carried by some random enemy on the ship.  You move through searching lockers and killing everyone till it drops.  There's also exisiting mission types like exterminate.  After clearing the missions for progression purposes, you can select where and how you want to farm.  If someone tries to do the opposite of the mission objective, it's clear who's being a jerk!

[CookieStorm]

I like the Extract Now option too.  It lets everyone do their own thing.  I'm an explorer and hate when I have to rush to keep up with other people who bypass all the valuable shiny objects our enemies graciously left behind for us.

 

The level keeping track of what players have already completed it shouldn't be too hard to implement depending on how DE made the game.  I wrote up a paragraph explaining how it could easily be done using a map (I'm assuming the game was written in c++) but decided to delete that and write this instead.  Less tl;dr.

[lokozar]

Playing online is to have fun playing together other players, and ussaly its achiving primary objective. Solution , play together people you know, Friends. Solution , play single player, you can epxlore evrything you want and even spend 1 entire day in the map if you need.

 

That is mentioned a lot. However, I feel this is no real solution. See, not everyone has friends in a game or want to make some. Especially newbies lack connections in the first place. Sure, they could search for like-minded players, but that needs time, partially a lot of it. I found myself asking in global chat for like-minded persons more than one time (even repeatedly) and got no one. Point is, it's not that easy as people make it sound sometimes. So in the meantime you either have to solo missions (which, if done all the time, somehow defeats the purpose of a co-op game) or play with random people. And this is when these problems arise anew. That's why I think this one is no real solution.

 

I know I keep saying this but it keeps seeming to get ignored.

 

Why not make missions where you rush and missions where you explore?  In a rush mission the goal is to clear the mission as quickly as possible.  No mods or matts drop off of enemies.  All rewards are at the end of the mission.  In a search mission you explore the area looking for a datamass or something that's hidden in a locker or being carried by some random enemy on the ship.  You move through searching lockers and killing everyone till it drops.  There's also exisiting mission types like exterminate.  After clearing the missions for progression purposes, you can select where and how you want to farm.  If someone tries to do the opposite of the mission objective, it's clear who's being a jerk!

 

No, you're not ignored. It's a neat idea. Maybe something as an addition to a lobby or checkbox system. However, it would segregate the players a bit. Announcing a game mode is ok, but how about letting each match evolve? 4 Explorers could very well mutually decide that they want to rush the last half of the map - for whatever reasons there are (it's their beer ^^). But again, it's a neat idea. It could be three folded -> exploration, rushing, normal <-- modes, where normal would be an evolving playstile.

 

But for now, the "extract now option" would be a good and relatively easy to implement system. I think, it's not that hard to store player IDs in a match. Whenever a player decides to join again, after he was successfully extracted, the match would block his access. Essentially a blacklist, you know?

Edited April 14, 2013 by lokozar

[Chtulie]

Here's a suggestion: make the lockers and barrels only drop health, energy and ammo.

That way, the looter sticks near the rushers for the good loot, and when the rushers are running ragged, they're with the looter looking for the lockers (crates) and barrels to recharge and resupply.

 

In short, make sure that what both players want is in the same place so it pays to stick together.

[plznohurtme]

Here's a suggestion: make the lockers and barrels only drop health, energy and ammo.

That way, the looter sticks near the rushers for the good loot, and when the rushers are running ragged, they're with the looter looking for the lockers (crates) and barrels to recharge and resupply.

 

In short, make sure that what both players want is in the same place so it pays to stick together.

 

The "big" problem when it comes to "rushers" is the people who bypass enemies and don't care about the drops (eg: boss fight, farming a BP, or just trying to get the credit reward from the end of the mission) but just want to get to the end.  I don't think I have had a problem with anyone rushing through a level that was actually killing everything.  I'm sure there are your handful of people who would like to explore every corner of every randomly generated map, but myself at least I tend to just go where there are enemies until there aren't any.