[Suggestion] Solution For Rushers And Explorers

[Chtulie]

 I don't think I have had a problem with anyone rushing through a level that was actually killing everything.  I'm sure there are your handful of people who would like to explore every corner of every randomly generated map, but myself at least I tend to just go where there are enemies until there aren't any.

 

Then rushers must be really rare, because it's this behaviour (quoted) that got me called "rush-noob" by someone in a starting warframe.

[lokozar]

Here's a suggestion: make the lockers and barrels only drop health, energy and ammo.

That way, the looter sticks near the rushers for the good loot, and when the rushers are running ragged, they're with the looter looking for the lockers (crates) and barrels to recharge and resupply.

 

In short, make sure that what both players want is in the same place so it pays to stick together.

 

What both players want? Your suggestion is a very rusher friendly one. It would mean tubular maps. And that would effectively destroy exploration. What about, what explorers want? They don't want to stick to a rusher, that's for sure. ;-)

 

 

Then rushers must be really rare, because it's this behaviour (quoted) that got me called "rush-noob" by someone in a starting warframe.

 

 

No, they are not. That's why the devs tried to implement a solution with 7.7.3. However, this solution is insufficient, as I've explained in my first post here.

Edited April 14, 2013 by lokozar

[plznohurtme]

Then rushers must be really rare, because it's this behaviour (quoted) that got me called "rush-noob" by someone in a starting warframe.

 

Well I worded my sentence carefully and underlined I for a reason... me personally... I don't really see the problem if everything is dying... I personally have never had a problem keeping up with someone that was actually killing everything.  My problem with "rushers" is when they ignore almost everything and just run to the end which has happened to me a quite a few times.  If someone called you a "rush-noob" for going through and killing everything and they chose to not keep up... well... yeah I guess I see that as their issue since you were accomplishing the goal of the mission and *not* leaving anything behind.  The only circumstance that I could understand that complaint is if you were running a mission with a truly rare material available (ex: alloy plate/rubedo) and weren't looting containers.

[lokozar]

Maybe everyone has a different understanding of what a rusher or an explorer is. In any case, the "extract now" option would be a solution for everyone, I think. No matter which nuance somebody is refering to. We should concentrate on suggestions here.

Edited April 15, 2013 by lokozar

[Naxza]

Before we go to "Extract now," can we get a /stuck feature? I've fallen through the floor a few times, and that would make it impossible to finish as a result.

[Xelphiki]

I would hate a Vote System for extraction.

Having an AFK member would bone your whole team then.

[Manjaro]

I feel that we could go about this like Vindictus does when a player hits the end of a section. the game shows a timer on all players currently in the match and gives them the option to wait it out or click F12 to go ahead and move forward. But we take that as a different apprach where when a frame hits the exit, it notifies all other players that he/she is there, and that:

 

A.) All have the option to click a button that starts a timer if everyone is "rusher" but all have not made it to the end.

 

B.) forces rushing players to wait. for their teammates. Going fast is cool and all but let's face it: we're a team. You willingly signed up for lugging us along when you entered the squad(and vice versa).

 

Co-Op is not "you running ahead of everyone else(activating all the laser doors for us, thanks A******) so you can feel like a one-man-badass-on-the-loose. If that's what you want, there's always solo mode; seriously, it is there. this is just my opinion.

 

Forgive me if I sound a bit crude, but I'm just tired of rushers in almost all my mission lately. If you see me and EVERYONE else trying to take down these enemies, revive, get the terminals hacked after they activated their firewalls and such, it should be pretty clear we're not rushing. Sometimes, I get left behind being the one who has the artifact or datanode, so I need to get to the end otherwise you can't leave either. I've had people actually rush hostage missions and I'm stuck with the hostage waiting for the elevator to come back down its long descent(Really? you rushed and left the hostage... ON A RESCUE MISSION??? wtf?!?!?) and people still try their hardest to blow throw everything...

 

Don't get me wrong, I rush a few times myself when I feel I can't take everything head-on(or all my squad dies), I get it, sometimes you just gotta race. but it's not how I play EVERY SINGLE MISSION... Does it kill a guy to just stop for a few seconds and go "Man, this place is beautiful. nice job DE staff. Well done. Keep up the good work," and then continue your on your crusade of speed? 2 minutes of you're time is all it would take, gosh I feel like the guy from those children's help infomercials...

Edited April 15, 2013 by Manjaro

[lokozar]

Before we go to "Extract now," can we get a /stuck feature? I've fallen through the floor a few times, and that would make it impossible to finish as a result.

 

While this is important, it's also a separate issue. Please keep this thread clean and create a own topic for it. That's really the smartest thing you can do, if you want to have something changed or fixed. I even would support it.

 

I would hate a Vote System for extraction.

Having an AFK member would bone your whole team then.

 

What are you talking about? Did I miss a post where voting for extraction was mentioned? Oo

The suggestions up to this point don't need anyone to wait for AFKers.

 

I feel that we could go about this like Vindictus does when a player hits the end of a section. the game shows a timer on all players currently in the match and gives them the option to wait it out or click F12 to go ahead and move forward. But we take that as a different apprach where when a frame hits the exit, it notifies all other players that he/she is there, and that:

 

A.) All have the option to click a button that starts a timer if everyone is "rusher" but all have not made it to the end.

 

B.) forces rushing players to wait. for their teammates. Going fast is cool and all but let's face it: we're a team. You willingly signed up for lugging us along when you entered the squad(and vice versa).

 

Co-Op is not "you running ahead of everyone else(activating all the laser doors for us, thanks A******) so you can feel like a one-man-badass-on-the-loose. If that's what you want, there's always solo mode; seriously, it is there. this is just my opinion.

 

Forgive me if I sound a bit crude, but I'm just tired of rushers in almost all my mission lately. If you see me and EVERYONE else trying to take down these enemies, revive, get the terminals hacked after they activated their firewalls and such, it should be pretty clear we're not rushing. Sometimes, I get left behind being the one who has the artifact or datanode, so I need to get to the end otherwise you can't leave either. I've had people actually rush hostage missions and I'm stuck with the hostage waiting for the elevator to come back down its long descent(Really? you rushed and left the hostage... ON A RESCUE MISSION??? wtf?!?!?) and people still try their hardest to blow throw everything...

 

Don't get me wrong, I rush a few times myself when I feel I can't take everything head-on(or all my squad dies), I get it, sometimes you just gotta race. but it's not how I play EVERY SINGLE MISSION... Does it kill a guy to just stop for a few seconds and go "Man, this place is beautiful. nice job DE staff. Well done. Keep up the good work," and then continue your on your crusade of speed? 2 minutes of you're time is all it would take, gosh I feel like the guy from those children's help infomercials...

 

Yeah, I hear you, but it's the sad truth that these people won't listen to you, to me, or even to the devs (and let's be honest here - vice versa). They never will. That's why, this game - and other games like Warframe - have to have a sound gamedesign so that everyone can have fun without the need to verbally rend each other. By the way, I like your suggestion mentioned in your first paragraph (B excluded). That certainly would be a good addition to my suggestion and caters to people that somehow stand in between being a rusher and being an explorer.

Edited April 16, 2013 by lokozar

[HvcTerr]

Individual extraction has big problems.

 

1. The guy who rushed probably left a horde of enemies behind him and now leaves his team under-strength to clean them up.

 

2. Even if a new player comes in, on boss-missions the boss is virtually always dead and looted. So this new guy either has to help clean up somebody else's party, or else take a mission-failure on their record as they quit.

 

3. If the new player still gets end-of-mission goodies, this is easily exploitable, as someone could basically go AFK right next to the extraction-zone and allow a succession of other players to pop in, finish the mission, and repeat.

 

___________________

 

The easiest solution is to fix the lobby system to be less ad-hoc. Allow people to host/join with a real GUI that lets them set/filter based on shared goals.

Edited April 16, 2013 by HvcTerr

[SubZeroInfinity]

And if you get that situation which already happên to me : 

 

you get 3players in your match.

- 1 rush exploration

- 2 want explore too.

 

the problems is if those 2 have not run speed / stamina boost etc... The rusher will get every drop/exp/container and then drops disapear. So what happen to those 2poor guys who want to drop something? like affinity or materials which use to disapear realy fast?

[lokozar]

Individual extraction has big problems.

 

1. The guy who rushed probably left a horde of enemies behind him and now leaves his team under-strength to clean them up.

 

2. Even if a new player comes in, on boss-missions the boss is virtually always dead and looted. So this new guy either has to help clean up somebody else's party, or else take a mission-failure on their record as they quit.

 

3. If the new player still gets end-of-mission goodies, this is easily exploitable, as someone could basically go AFK right next to the extraction-zone and allow a succession of other players to pop in, finish the mission, and repeat.

 

___________________

 

The easiest solution is to fix the lobby system to be less ad-hoc. Allow people to host/join with a real GUI that lets them set/filter based on shared goals.

 

1. No, because - as said - the game would scale down, as soon as someone leaves the party. How exactly it would scale down is open for debate. That could very well include despawning enemies a rusher that leaves has triggered before.

 

2. That's a separate problem, which also exists right now, doesn't it? So, I don't feel it's a valid argument against the suggestions here.

 

3. You're trying to search for problems here. Granted that could be one, but how about finding a solution for it, instead of just smash it in the room? Would be more constructive (that's what this thread is for - evolvement). An idle kick would be something that could help here. That's desirable anyway. As far as I know, such a kick-system can be implemented in a way that even notices if someone just put an object on his move-forward-key or jump key. Any other ideas?

 

 

A lobby system is a nice perception, as said here before, but it's also a thing that would take much more time. So, I have to disagree, it wouldn't be the "easiest solution" and it still wouldn't be a solution for random groups. In any case, I think, a lobby wouldn't clash with these suggestions here. Both things can complement each other very well.

Edited April 16, 2013 by lokozar

[lokozar]

And if you get that situation which already happên to me : 

 

you get 3players in your match.

- 1 rush exploration

- 2 want explore too.

 

the problems is if those 2 have not run speed / stamina boost etc... The rusher will get every drop/exp/container and then drops disapear. So what happen to those 2poor guys who want to drop something? like affinity or materials which use to disapear realy fast?

 

Never saw them disappearing to be honest. Everyone can get this stuff, even after some time. Even if it wouldn't be so, the devs could make it so. I really don't get the narrow-mindedness sometimes. Why pointing out something and act as if, or make it look like, the whole thing is therefore doomed? Bring in ideas to avoid exploitation and such things.

Edited April 16, 2013 by lokozar

[SubZeroInfinity]

Never saw them disappearing to be honest. Everyone can get this stuff, even after some time. Even if it wouldn't be so, the devs could make it so. I really don't get the narrow-mindedness sometimes. Why pointing out something and act as if, or make it look like, the whole thing is therefore doomed? Bring in ideas to avoid exploitation and such things.

And still rusher get bonus exp from kill than other don't you can't ask dev to brink back infinity mobs like it was before you said that i'm narrow minded take it as you want matters don't change you can't close your eyes on those weaks points, i didn't write it for give you a solution it's not my idea and never said this thing is already doom but if you can't see whats wrong that mean you didn't realy think about it. i'm pointing you what you should think about to make it through then next time i'll just let you believe in the fact that your idea is perfect

 

And items disapear for real. Affinity and material especialy.

[Zanzibarr11]

Although I have never myself had any problems with this, I thought, why not just make it another option in the dropdown tab when you select solo/private/online play. Just add an explorer and a rusher tab.

 

The only problem I see with this segregation is that one side may be more rewarding than the other, or you could have a rusher jump into an explorer map and run to the end like it is nobody's business. I guess that is just the risk you take when playing with randoms in online mode. It would be easier to play with a stable group like clanmates or IRL people you know.

[Enomilli]

The Queen approves this idea...+1 indeed.

[Ambience]

2. Even if a new player comes in, on boss-missions the boss is virtually always dead and looted. So this new guy either has to help clean up somebody else's party, or else take a mission-failure on their record as they quit.

 

Alt+F4. You do not get any rewards you picked up nor do you get anything for leaving/failing.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Ambience

[HvcTerr]

2. That's a separate problem, which also exists right now, doesn't it? So, I don't feel it's a valid argument against the suggestions here.

 

No, it's going to be enormously more common if you allow rushers to exit early. Big quantitative step.

 

Although I suppose there could be a sort of karmic justice in it: The rushers will then join another game to re-rush the same boss, and are themselves also more likely to end up in the same kind of situation they left.

 

 

 

3. You're trying to search for problems here.

 

Yes, that's rather the point. When nobody searches for problems ahead of time, you get S#&$ty systems with problems anyway.

[MEsoJD]

I made some guy mad because I was rushing an alert mission with am ?(item) Everyone is pretty much there for the item, not to waste time with enemies or explore...

[plznohurtme]

I made some guy mad because I was rushing an alert mission with am ?(item) Everyone is pretty much there for the item, not to waste time with enemies or explore...

 

That's part of the problem... you make an assumption about the player base as a whole based on your own opinion.  Congrats at proving the point that was trying to be made here... there's no reason to not kill all of the enemies as you're clearing a map, it's not like the reward is going anywhere now is it.  Why bother playing the game at all if you're just working on your corridor simulation techniques?

[lokozar]

And still rusher get bonus exp from kill than other don't you can't ask dev to brink back infinity mobs like it was before you said that i'm narrow minded take it as you want matters don't change you can't close your eyes on those weaks points, i didn't write it for give you a solution it's not my idea and never said this thing is already doom but if you can't see whats wrong that mean you didn't realy think about it. i'm pointing you what you should think about to make it through then next time i'll just let you believe in the fact that your idea is perfect

 

And items disapear for real. Affinity and material especialy.

 

Somehow I'm getting the feeling, you're way off here. A rusher is a person that rushes to the end of a level without shooting something. Or let's say he shoots very little. He also doesn't give a damn about barrels or lockers. So, not so much bonus XP and certainly not so much drop loot for him. The explorers however are the ones that get more bonus XP and much more loot, because they take time to search for enemies and barrels/lockers. If the rusher rushes ahead and hits the "extract now button" he will leave the match, while the explorers are still exploring, thus gaining their XP and loot. So, where exactly is the problem? Btw. infinity mobs? What do you mean?

 

And again, I never once saw items disappear in this game - except after I picked them up. And again this suggestion isn't perfect as I mentioned in my first post here, which you oviously didn't read. You're simply pointing at non-issues atm.

 

No, it's going to be enormously more common if you allow rushers to exit early. Big quantitative step.

 

Although I suppose there could be a sort of karmic justice in it: The rushers will then join another game to re-rush the same boss, and are themselves also more likely to end up in the same kind of situation they left.

 

 

 

 

Yes, that's rather the point. When nobody searches for problems ahead of time, you get S#&$ty systems with problems anyway.

 

Why would it become more common? You don't give a reason here. Say we have 1 rusher, 2 explorers; rusher leaves, explorers are still at it, new joined player can either rush as well or explore. As for the dead boss, I also don't see why this would happen more often. You either kill the boss and some unfortunate soul jumps in and gets nothing or this very same players gets in in time. It's now the case, it would be the case then. If you don't like this it's fair enough, but's also a separate problem, which you would have to fluster about right now. I don't see were this is fit to be an argument against my suggestion. I really don't. But, I can give you a possible solution for that problem, that exists right now... Lock the match as soon as the boss is fallen, so no new player can join it. At this point the match delivers no new challenge anyway (or so it should be).

 

As for your last paragraph; you left out the important part of my criticism. It's not that you point at possible problems (that's perfectly fine), it's that you do it in a deconstructive way (that's not fine), because you don't bother to bring in own ideas to circumvent these problems. You don't try to evolve this suggestion here. Instead you lapidary smash in an idea, that was already talked about and isn't the focus here. If you want to extra stress a lobby system you could just do this by creating a focussed thread about it, like this one here - only with another emphasis. What you're showing right now is nothing more than a repulsing behaviour, that will benefit no one at all.

 

After all, this here is trying to cater to both playstyles ...

Edited April 16, 2013 by lokozar

[Fujimura]

I don't mind either player tbh, with the new 'extraction policy' if i was to rush in a public lobby without a friend it would be a pain, but then again 'rusher' and 'explorer' are board terms that are overused.  Most players make it sound that if someone beats you to the extract by 1m30s they are a rusher, when they could have been joined to your hip for over 90% of the gameplay in that match, but because you couldn't reach the extraction they 'rushed'.  Ditto goes for explorers being these guys who have to find every locker, every box, every enemy for a chance for a mod.  While I don't mind your solution of early extract in fact I replied to a post similar to this a week or so back basically saying the same thing, a possible solution is to let rushers extract early. 

 

This solution also creates its own new set of problems though :'( so I don't think it would work out personally, unless they bar new players from joining the old lobby (which in most cases won't be a problem the objectives of the mission are already done, so leftover players are just fighting spawned mobs and probably are capable of handling them until they want to extract).  Basically the main issue in my mind if what I will just now call the 'rusher exploit' for a system that doesnt bar rejoining you find a map, that has very few squads on it and just rush to the exit extract rejoin and do it again, if no objective to complete you could potentially beat the credit farming map on mercury (w/ chronus bp 3.5k credits with sub 5m of work).  And most people I know who people claim to 'rush' don't really rush if they did they'd be at the extract at around 5-7 minutes if not sooner in most of the maps.

 

As many players have raged and pointed out, many pure bred 'rushers' play solo or 'should' play solo, primarily because thats where you can 'rush'.  If you are even with 1 other player around 30-40% of the time you'll run into a dbl player door.  I think people are just upset because some people don't hold the elevator door for them, especially on the longer elevators and this can easily put you a minute behind someone. People just need to hold the door, or if your the one guy not on the elevator get on :x

[MEsoJD]

That's part of the problem... you make an assumption about the player base as a whole based on your own opinion.  Congrats at proving the point that was trying to be made here... there's no reason to not kill all of the enemies as you're clearing a map, it's not like the reward is going anywhere now is it.  Why bother playing the game at all if you're just working on your corridor simulation techniques?

 

 It's usually only alert that I rush and I usually try to be mindful of the state of the team. That said, they probably need to rethink the structure of alert missions.

[HvcTerr]

Why would it become more common? You don't give a reason here.

 

Put a little thought into it and it should be obvious. Right now, "open slots" in a party usually occur only at the beginning of the a grindy boss-misson, and once filled *stay* filled until the end. This means that players choosing to run the mission will end up with other people who are also starting out and who haven't yet killed the boss etc.

 

By allowing people to exit early, this will drastically increase the number of open-slots in missions which are in the post-boss stage, and correspondingly increasing the odds that someone saying: "Ooh, I want to beat that boss" is going to get dropped into a mission where they missed the action.

 

 

It's not that you point at possible problems (that's perfectly fine), it's that you do it in a deconstructive way (that's not fine), because you don't bother to bring in own ideas to circumvent these problems. 

 

Oh, I've given ideas to solve the problem, but your response is like:

 

I know you don't like how I'm arranging these deck-chairs, but if we're going to save the RMS Titanic from sinking in the icy sea, then you should stop being so negative about my work and offer some constructive criticism about how they need to be placed!

 

Having someone reach the end first is merely a symptom, and you are only treating the symptoms. "What are our goals in this mission" is fundamentally a social issue. Some guy reaching the end super-fast is merely a symptom.

 

The better solution is to treat the underlying cause of the problem instead, and reduce the rate at which players with different agendas are matched together.

Edited April 16, 2013 by HvcTerr

[lokozar]

Put a little thought into it and it should be obvious. Right now, "open slots" in a party usually occur only at the beginning of the a grindy boss-misson, and once filled *stay* filled until the end. This means that players choosing to run the mission will end up with other people who are also starting out and who haven't yet killed the boss etc.

 

By allowing people to exit early, this will drastically increase the number of open-slots in missions which are in the post-boss stage, and correspondingly increasing the odds that someone saying: "Ooh, I want to beat that boss" is going to get dropped into a mission where they missed the action.

 

 

 

Oh, I've given ideas to solve the problem, but your response is like:

 

 

Having someone reach the end first is merely a symptom, and you are only treating the symptoms. "What are our goals in this mission" is fundamentally a social issue. Some guy reaching the end super-fast is merely a symptom.

 

The better solution is to treat the underlying cause of the problem instead, and reduce the rate at which players with different agendas are matched together.

 

1.

What do you mean by "usually"? You're trying to dodge the point. The problem exists NOW. Therefore it is no argument against this suggestion - period. I won't repeat this another time. If you don't want to see it, so be it ... Btw. you simply ignored my "lock the match" suggestion.

 

2.

You have given no ideas to solve the alleged problem. Point at them, quote them. You can't, because you haven't.

 

3.

Yes, this is what you have done! You've advertised another idea, which was discussed here as well - beneficial. I'm not against it - as said. I think no one here was. But I don't see why my suggestion would be such a bad idea. They can complement each other. After all you couldn't bring up one reasonable argument against it.

 

Even with a lobby in place, there still would be lots of random matches, because not for every planet and at any given time you will find like-minded players from the get go, to team up with beforehand. It's as simple as that. So, it still needs a system for random matches. My suggestion refers to that and again you have done nothing to evolve this suggestion, after you pointed at an alleged problem. That's still deconstructive.

 

You're right however, that there is an underlying cause, but neither you nor me nor anyone, not even the Devs, are able to change this. It's called tastes, it's human. Solving this purely with segregation isn't possible in Warframe. It almost never is. There have to be mechanisms, that avoid a lot of anger whenever different playstyles come together. And they come together sure as hell...

 

So, how about working on this? What's your contribution or suggestion for handling the random group problems?

Edited April 16, 2013 by lokozar

[matrixEXO]

I like this. Also, 2 pointers to aid your opening post:

1) When 1 person completes the objective or is about to arrive to the objective point (rule not implied for exterminate), the host server should lock access of people into the game. This should solve some "I want to get a piece of the action (boss) but never got it" or "I want to get easy cash (since you are near extraction)." (This guy leaves then waits and then goes back after timing it down).

2) When a rusher leaves, his name should be flagged onto the host server and will not be allowed to access the host server again. This prevents seeing the same rusher back in the game. Does make the game harder but people should be able to solo/duo/trio well properly anyway. (Requires iteration since we do not want problems.)

Edited April 16, 2013 by matrixEXO