When Serration,hornet Strike And Multishot Will Be Finally Removed Or Revamped?

[cesmode]

I think they already did remove the Redirection mod. 

 

When I first started playing Warframe four weeks ago, I made a mistake while trying to fuse it to increase it's power which caused it to be totally lost. I have spent the past four weeks trying to get another one, but no matter what, none of the enemies are dropping it. So I guess it's been removed.

 

I wish it was still around. I really want that one.

 

Redirection is still there.

[Arabaxus]

But flow is not an automatic choice for every frame.  

 

I agree with your points about redirection, steel fiber, etc...totally agree.  Some frames benefit from one more than the other.

 

But I think we have to narrow this discussion to the automatic choices in serration and hornet strike, etc.  They are automatics for any weapon.  Flow is not automatic for all frames.  They are possibly automatics for "caster" dps frames...I wouldn't put flow on Rhino. 

 

9/10 Rhino Ninjas would say otherwise.

[zavienh5]

idk what to think of this thread

[cesmode]

9/10 Rhino Ninjas would say otherwise.

 

Good for them :)

Stomp spamming is bad...Id rather have a nyx for the CC or some other frame that better handles it.

 

Roar is very nice, its the only justification for possibly throwing a flow on there, but I think I would use that mod slot for something else.

[(PSN)BREI_BROSKEY27]

So because the game is PvE we shouldn't every give critical feedback on it and try to make the game better?

Good lord.

it's not that it's just that he is asking when they are going to remove these mods because they make it so builds have no variety. he could easily take those out of his build to create more variety than to just ask to blatantly remove them. it doesnt effect him in anyway what people use those mods for so i dont see the big deal

[Arabaxus]

it's not that it's just that he is asking when they are going to remove these mods because they make it so builds have no variety. he could easily take those out of his build to create more variety than to just ask to blatantly remove them. it doesnt effect him in anyway what people use those mods for so i dont see the big deal

 ^

 

It's player choice. No one is forcing you to use anything. Quit complaining that the "metagame" builds aren't what you exactly enjoy.

[GeoDP]

I agree with you OP,we really need more MOD diversity!

[Tiqalicious]

it's not that it's just that he is asking when they are going to remove these mods because they make it so builds have no variety. he could easily take those out of his build to create more variety than to just ask to blatantly remove them. it doesnt effect him in anyway what people use those mods for so i dont see the big deal

HE'S TALKING ABOUT REMOVING THEM AND BUILDING THEM INTO THE WEAPON ITSELF BECAUSE THEY'RE ESSENTIAL MODS THAT NEED TO BE INSTALLED INTO EVERY WEAPON TO MAKE THEM VIABLE.

HE'S SPECIFICALLY TRYING TO FIND AN ANSWER WHERE HE CAN TAKE THEM OUT WITHOUT MAKING THE WEAPONS USELESS.

HOW ARE YOU STILL FAILING TO GRASP THIS?

[Tiqalicious]

 ^

 

It's player choice. No one is forcing you to use anything. Quit complaining that the "metagame" builds aren't what you exactly enjoy.

It's not about enjoyment. These mods NEED to be on the weapon or the weapon becomes useless.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Tiqalicious

[Caliocerion]

How about, instead of taking damage mods away, we add more mod slots.

[Alphafox]

But flow is not an automatic choice for every frame.  

 

I agree with your points about redirection, steel fiber, etc...totally agree.  Some frames benefit from one more than the other.

 

But I think we have to narrow this discussion to the automatic choices in serration and hornet strike, etc.  They are automatics for any weapon.  Flow is not automatic for all frames.  They are possibly automatics for "caster" dps frames...I wouldn't put flow on Rhino.

Was about to say that. Thanks you for doing it.

[Dasmir]

So you want to remove all of the 'required' weapon mods?

Ok, but then what about the next set of 'required' mods that people will find to maximize DPS?  Such as fire rate, punch through, magazine size....

Remove them too?

Then what about the next batch of 'required' mods that people would find that every build would use simply because they would increase dps the most?

Pretty soon we would be left with increadibly slim pickings for mods that dont really do anything all that useful (stability and zoom enhancement mainly) because they are some of the few mods that dont increase dps.

No matter what there will always be 'required' mods that everyone equips because they increase dps the most.  Just removing them and having damage scale with weapon level wont really solve all that much.

Honestly, the biggest immediate issue I see with this is that it would make formaing weapons a pain.  Unlike now where I can equip my serration on a formaed weapon at level 4 to get a decent damage boost I would be stuck with rather pathetic damage output and unable to play any fun missions while re-leveling my formaed gear...

 

This ! What will happen with the new "metamods" ..

[(PSN)docolson]

So you want to remove all of the 'required' weapon mods?

Ok, but then what about the next set of 'required' mods that people will find to maximize DPS?  Such as fire rate, punch through, magazine size....

Remove them too?

Then what about the next batch of 'required' mods that people would find that every build would use simply because they would increase dps the most?

Pretty soon we would be left with increadibly slim pickings for mods that dont really do anything all that useful (stability and zoom enhancement mainly) because they are some of the few mods that dont increase dps.

No matter what there will always be 'required' mods that everyone equips because they increase dps the most.  Just removing them and having damage scale with weapon level wont really solve all that much.

Honestly, the biggest immediate issue I see with this is that it would make formaing weapons a pain.  Unlike now where I can equip my serration on a formaed weapon at level 4 to get a decent damage boost I would be stuck with rather pathetic damage output and unable to play any fun missions while re-leveling my formaed gear...

What he said;)

[Arabaxus]

It's not about enjoyment. These mods NEED to be on the weapon or the weapon becomes useless.

 

Weapons are not useless without Serration. There are other mods that augment damage output. No one is forcing you to use Serration. It makes the weapon better, but there is no iron law that it must be on the weapon. You are free to use it, or you are free not to use it. Simple as that. Useless is subjective.

[Krymanol]

So as long as the main goal in any game is to do damage and doing damage is the best way to win or succeed, there will never be any mod or system that will take favoritism away from mods that provide damage increase.  It's that simple!

 

 

Because whether we have serration or not, the next best damage mod will just take serrations place as the most desirable or needed mod.   Every gamer in any game that is about doing damage always value ways to increase damage more than anything simply because the more damage you do, the better chance you have to succeed.  

 

See even utility mods are about doing more damage.   You use mods like fast hands or ammo drum so you can shoot faster or shoot longer because improving those things also improves your DPS.   

 

So until games change  and get away from killing enemies in order to be successful, damage mods, no matter what type or amount of damage they give, will forever remain the most important factor in any game that is about fighting and doing damage to some health bar.  

 

 

So removing mods like serration won't change anything but the scale of damage that players can do.   Players will still value damage mods over anything else.  

[Alphafox]

This ! What will happen with the new "metamods" ..

Serration is not a ''metamod'' It's a mod that is required  on every single build that. In a meta every other option is somewhat viable. Currently it's take serration and do damage or don't take it and don't do damage.

Weapons are not useless without Serration. There are other mods that augment damage output. No one is forcing you to use Serration. It makes the weapon better, but there is no iron law that it must be on the weapon. You are free to use it, or you are free not to use it. Simple as that. Useless is subjective.

Sadly that argument is not valid at all. Of course you are free to use any other mods, but NO other mod does what serration does what serration do. Sure you can make a ''elemental only'' build,but guess what? Elemental damage is affected by your base damage, and what mod increase your elemental damage? Yup, Serration.

[EdgeKasim]

hmm, i generally dislike topics like this as they usually start with little to no decent alternative and just say "nerf/remove this that and the other" and its usually for one sided reasons, not to mention its a massive kick below the belt for the devs that put time and effort into thinking up a system that would alow some form of difficulty scaling with the limited choices they have.

 

that being said i personally dont really mind either or, the system isnt perfect, theres no such thing as perfect afterall.  if i were to come up with alternatives it would be to have a gun parts system so youd be able to swap out the barrel, stock, magazine, sight, grip etc.  each of the parts you could swap them for would be similar to how the mods work except you wouldnt be able to place a multishot barrel alongside a longbarrel (serration type) or even a hi-revolution barrel that focuses soley on crits, that way you could have several types of builts from burst dmg multishot to single shot destruction.  also being able to level the parts so that they would still take up mod points and give reasons for forma as it should still be able to compliment some of the current features.

 

a more detailed example would be

 

Barrels

Long Barrel - DMG + 100%

Multi Barrel - Fires Extra Bullet 100%

Hi-Revolution Barrel - Crit = base+50 (as i think increasing the base by a % would no longer be viable with this system)

 

Magazine

Snail Clip - Ammo + 100%

HE Rounds - Wepon Element = Blast (leveling this would either increase ammo cap or stat chance)

Frozen Acid Coating - Wepon Element = 50% Ice + 50% Corrosive

 

etc

 

still i dont think many would like this as its not easy to make everyone happy

 

somone earlyer mentioned adding a stance slot to the guns, if that happened then you could use the barrel mods ive mentioned in that slot to change the way a gun works overall, if you removed serration, multishot and crit type mods.

Edited August 12, 2014 by EdgeKasim

[Fraank]

Small example:

There are 29 shotgun mods. each weapon has 8 slots for mods. That means you can Mod a Shotgun with 4292145* different loadouts

If you always use Hells Chamber, Point Blank and Blaze you ll still have 65780* different ways to mod shotguns.

you add vicious spread to your standard loadout?  => 12650 different combinations.

 

*different mod combination only . not including different mod capacities

 

The only problem is, that there are really useless mods like, intruder or aviator.

Mods i dont need all the time like master thief, thiefe's wit and handspring. But they are nice to have.

And there are mods you always need like serration and some warframe abilties. You don't leave your home without a key for the door.

[Didoguard]

Wait... Almost every game have some kind of progression system and end game when you hit the maximum top of something and you can't get any further at that specific moment. For Warframe that's the necessary maxed mods. Never seen a game being MMO , RPG or whatever where the basic gear you get is as viable as the maxed out - and why it should be. Nothing wrong with having such "must have" mods on a gear (being a weapon, warframe or whatever). Even now with the "broken" mods with lesser quality the progression system is better. What you all are concerned is that there are tons of mods that have no place in a specific build as we are forced to chose the "must have" ones. For a long time I was thinking something and probably some if not most of you share similar ideas. Why don't separate the warframe and weapon slots in smaller departments. Similar to the above post we can have slots for damage mods, slots for utility mods, slots for ... whatever category mods they invent.

 

Rough example : every gun have 4 DMG mod slots, 2 utility ,... etc  - Some tweaks in the percentages might put all or most of the mods dedicated for a specific group on par. Lower serration values and up some of the other dmg mods. No matter the combinations you put you will still have viable choices. But you can't put every single dmg mod on 1 gun. In other mod departments you will have free slots for .... fast hands or ammo clip extension for example and you have to chose which one will suit you. Everything can be separated into, just like the post above, parts of the gun - barrel, handle, stock etc. 

Edited August 12, 2014 by Didoguard

[Arabaxus]

Serration is not a ''metamod'' It's a mod that is required  on every single build that. In a meta every other option is somewhat viable. Currently it's take serration and do damage or don't take it and don't do damage.

Sadly that argument is not valid at all. Of course you are free to use any other mods, but NO other mod does what serration does what serration do. Sure you can make a ''elemental only'' build,but guess what? Elemental damage is affected by your base damage, and what mod increase your elemental damage? Yup, Serration.

 

Your own issue if you must have the highest Elemental damage. Elemental mods work just as intended even without Serration. Seems like a personal problem.

[Alphafox]

Your own issue if you must have the highest Elemental damage. Elemental mods work just as intended even without Serration. Seems like a personal problem.

What i meant is that elemental damage is affect by base damage.The only way to get a higher elemental damage is to raise your base damage with serration. Once again Serration is a must in any build. Sorry if you didn't understand that. I don't see how that's a personal problem.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Alphafox

[Tiqalicious]

Your own issue if you must have the highest Elemental damage. Elemental mods work just as intended even without Serration. Seems like a personal problem.

An enormous majority of the community has been pressuring DE for some time now about the fact that serration and mods like it are absolutely essential to progressing through the game. You are in an infinitesimally small group of people who apparently disagrees and you are completely wrong.

[Vastaren]

It's player choice. No one is forcing you to use anything. Quit complaining that the "metagame" builds aren't what you exactly enjoy.

Actually, it's not player choice when the system actively funnels you towards putting Serration on a weapon by sheer virtue of the fact that it augments damage per second by a disproportionately large modifier when compared to Fast Hands or Speed Trigger or whatever. We aren't complaining for the sake of ourselves - the system itself clearly is broken by this one item. Meant to promote diversity, but in reality, limiting people through a false choice? It's not personal at all, it's inherent to the system.

 

You're absolutely correct, Lotus isn't popping up as a hologram every time we go to mod our weapons just to remind us to put Serration on. If she did, though, would anything change? Serration presents a false choice. It's entirely possible to forgo its inclusion. But realistically, it's not an option at all, and contradicts the very purpose of having a weapon you can mod in the first place.

 

it's not that it's just that he is asking when they are going to remove these mods because they make it so builds have no variety. he could easily take those out of his build to create more variety than to just ask to blatantly remove them. it doesnt effect him in anyway what people use those mods for so i dont see the big deal

But the scope of the discussion is that the mods do affect everyone, and they're pointing out problems inherent to the system, not to themselves. I think you may have missed the point of the OP and subsequent discussion.

 

Meanwhile, I see these complaints about Redirection, Vitality, Serration, Hornet Strike, etc., but I don't see anyone complaining about Flow, which IMO is used way more than Redirection or Vitality in Warframes. Is it because Flow doesn't have 10 ranks, so it's much easier to rank up and thus the proponents of this argument just to happened to forget about Flow? 

But... is Flow a direct augment to everything a warframe is meant to do, including movement, weapons handling, and objective completion? Is every warframe completely dependent upon flow as a be-all-end-all mod to function viably at higher levels? Is Streamline not a fair consideration?

 

The situation is rather different for Serration. Weapons, by definition, do damage, and hence by necessity, require Serration. Can we say the same that warframes, by definition, use energy and hence by necessity, need more?

 

Another argument I've seen which I've forgotten to quote talks about how utility mods will pick up the slack for the scaling down/removal of Serration. That's great! I can imagine the situation where we have more utility mods to choose from, each of which contribute to damage, but none which present themselves as a false choice. Take Fast Hands and Mag Warp - there isn't a blanket rule regarding which one to use, really. Some weapons will benefit more from Fast Hands due to a small magazine, others from Mag Warp more due to low reload speed and large magazine. The numbers elude me, and I'm not going to argue those, but the point is that there is a genuine player decision to be made regarding these two. Can we imagine Serration fitting with any single other mod in terms of presenting a genuine choice?

Edited August 12, 2014 by Vastaren

[Moderius]

Ah, "illusion of choice". As soon as you replace those damage mods, something else will be "necessary" and you'll be right back here complaining about the "illusion of choice". This is the result of shallow foresight; the next thing along in build priority will also be in the same situation, and then the next, on and on and on.

 

This is what I like to call the "illusion of revelation".

[Alphafox]

Ah, "illusion of choice". As soon as you replace those damage mods, something else will be "necessary" and you'll be right back here complaining about the "illusion of choice". This is the result of shallow foresight; the next thing along in build priority will also be in the same situation, and then the next, on and on and on.

 

This is what I like to call the "illusion of revelation".

Right now no other mod is necessary. Maybe you could give me a example of what mods would become necessary if that change happened? No matter how you look at it the choice would be wider just by removing those mods(and adding the stats when weapons level up) or revamping the mod.