NonExistentTenno Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share Posted September 10, 2014 If there's only 1 thing that I could ask for Nekros... Every desecrate grants Commun/Uncommun/Rare (Per mod rank) mod or resource /lock That would be OP, Maxed Desecrate would be like, Need a rare? Sure Desecrate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonExistentTenno Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share Posted September 10, 2014 Valkyr has the highest armor in the game and with Hysteria you ignore damage entirely. Did you waste mod slots for QT+Rage on Valkyr too? 50 minutes solo with a frame that has invulnerability is not what this game was balanced on. They're so much a waste, More or less a unkillable build, But you are starting to piss me off with that statement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViLeDeth Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) They're so much a waste, More or less a unkillable build, But you are starting to &!$$ me off with that statement CC > Armor Higher Armor doesn't kill anything. After your 50minutes your Valkyr will go down like the other warframes. The scaling doesn't care about your armor. Valkyr's armor is overkill for the normal content levels. VVVVV This is what awaits you at 1hrs+ in (This was at 2hrs+). Armor is never going to compensate for the massive damage increase by mobs. Edited September 10, 2014 by ViLeDeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ionus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 CC > Armor Higher Armor doesn't kill anything. After your 50minutes your Valkyr will go down like the other warframes. The scaling doesn't care about your armor. Valkyr's armor is overkill for the normal content levels. VVVVV This is what awaits you at 1hrs+ in (This was at 2hrs+). Armor is never going to compensate for the massive damage increase by mobs. Armor by itself won't kill anything, but used with lifestrike, the rage can be an amazing way to keep yourself alive if you keep dishing out the pain. Long story short, armor can't kill things by itself, but neither can crowd control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViLeDeth Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Long story short, armor can't kill things by itself, crowd control will give you opportunities to kill.* *FTFY Armor can't kill anything or give opportunities to kill things after enemy scale has been reached. CC doesn't care about enemy level - once they are manage by CC you can kill things if you have the damage for it. What the OP wants is to try to justify more armor for Nekros and he will never need more than 65 armor when it comes to the normal game content levels. I live and sleep in T4 survival as I did for T3 survival and I do it for fun and for cores. There is no clan/person who (has gone for a long time in either T3/T4 or equivalent scenario and enemy scales) will agree with armor buffs or QT+R to save the day when it comes to grinding out the time in a T4 survival after 50minutes. Only prior to that, those things will keep people a live. 65 armor to 110 (example) armor for nekros will be a waste of a "buff" wish. A Nekros with QT+R+Eq is overkill in survival before mobs 1-shot him. A Nekros with a huras (stalk only) will have a better chance of surviving and avoiding grenade targeting. (Or he's just within range to desecrate in safe distance from stray bullets/being a target) If DE were to give any armor buff to Nekros, it would be in vain - an aesthetic status to fool users into thinking it has meaning beyond levels 50-80 enemies. (Also, Ionus, don't play coy when it comes to CC. That's not going to correct the misunderstanding people have if a user with high post count decides to ignore CC's utility for making kills happen versus armor's 1-dimensional contribution, simply for the sake of argument.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonExistentTenno Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share Posted September 10, 2014 *FTFY Armor can't kill anything or give opportunities to kill things after enemy scale has been reached. CC doesn't care about enemy level - once they are manage by CC you can kill things if you have the damage for it. What the OP wants is to try to justify more armor for Nekros and he will never need more than 65 armor when it comes to the normal game content levels. I live and sleep in T4 survival as I did for T3 survival and I do it for fun and for cores. There is no clan/person who (has gone for a long time in either T3/T4 or equivalent scenario and enemy scales) will agree with armor buffs or QT+R to save the day when it comes to grinding out the time in a T4 survival after 50minutes. Only prior to that, those things will keep people a live. 65 armor to 110 (example) armor for nekros will be a waste of a "buff" wish. A Nekros with QT+R+Eq is overkill in survival before mobs 1-shot him. A Nekros with a huras (stalk only) will have a better chance of surviving and avoiding grenade targeting. (Or he's just within range to desecrate in safe distance from stray bullets/being a target) If DE were to give any armor buff to Nekros, it would be in vain - an aesthetic status to fool users into thinking it has meaning beyond levels 50-80 enemies. (Also, Ionus, don't play coy when it comes to CC. That's not going to correct the misunderstanding people have if a user with high post count decides to ignore CC's utility for making kills happen versus armor's 1-dimensional contribution, simply for the sake of argument.) Ok, First off, I never made the armor buff intentional for higher level enemies, But it would be nice for newer players that came in U14, You just had to come along and shun upon all Non-CC warframes for no reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibro156 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 isn't meant to buffed up nekros thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViLeDeth Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Ok, First off, I never made the armor buff intentional for higher level enemies, But it would be nice for newer players that came in U14, You just had to come along and shun upon all Non-CC warframes for no reason I didn't shun any warframe. I want to clarify what you'll need for T4 survival beyond a certain time frame. You can play the game any way you want and it will more than likely work out prior to enemies scaling out of control. I pointed out CC is the thing you'll rely on the most at that point. Before that point of no return you can bring whatever you want. You brought up Valkyr to justify Nekros having an armor buff. I am against that idea as part of a collective buff. The frame itself is based on a theme so DE gave him 65 armor and that was generous. I brought up this info too so you and others don't get your hopes up after you reach a certain time during that long survival run. Most of what you are equipped with will wipe out the star-chart and earlier void/derelict instances. I don't follow the paradigm of "need iron skin and boltor prime" to make any mission successful. That is detrimental - I point this out to make sure you understand that I don't hate any frame and only see them all as fun alternatives to each other. I take each out for a spin and I keep the favorites on loadouts. I never said your Warframe of choice sucked or couldn't be used. I said "CC was king" and Valkyr has 3 forms of CC. I don't think there is any Warframe without CC. Edited September 10, 2014 by ViLeDeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ionus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 *FTFY Armor can't kill anything or give opportunities to kill things after enemy scale has been reached. CC doesn't care about enemy level - once they are manage by CC you can kill things if you have the damage for it. What the OP wants is to try to justify more armor for Nekros and he will never need more than 65 armor when it comes to the normal game content levels. I live and sleep in T4 survival as I did for T3 survival and I do it for fun and for cores. There is no clan/person who (has gone for a long time in either T3/T4 or equivalent scenario and enemy scales) will agree with armor buffs or QT+R to save the day when it comes to grinding out the time in a T4 survival after 50minutes. Only prior to that, those things will keep people a live. 65 armor to 110 (example) armor for nekros will be a waste of a "buff" wish. A Nekros with QT+R+Eq is overkill in survival before mobs 1-shot him. A Nekros with a huras (stalk only) will have a better chance of surviving and avoiding grenade targeting. (Or he's just within range to desecrate in safe distance from stray bullets/being a target) If DE were to give any armor buff to Nekros, it would be in vain - an aesthetic status to fool users into thinking it has meaning beyond levels 50-80 enemies. (Also, Ionus, don't play coy when it comes to CC. That's not going to correct the misunderstanding people have if a user with high post count decides to ignore CC's utility for making kills happen versus armor's 1-dimensional contribution, simply for the sake of argument.) But the real question is, what are we balancing these stats to? Is it the so-called "endgame" that many grizzled vets spend their hours on, where they go beyond the normal barriers of the enemy levels? This, I believe is the main problem with the level scaling that is present in the game. Too far along most warframes are reduced to one or two of their abilities to stay effective and helpful to their squad. To address your point, no, I don't think an armor buff to Nekros will be the buff he needs. BUT his abilities(sans desecrate) aren't in the best place right now. People use him solely for desecrate, save for a few people in the minority like yourself. I merely countered your argument that CC was better than armor purely because people such as yourself find enjoyment in pushing the game beyond its intended limits. Too much cheesing to keep enemies down and soak up damage. In terms of the actual intended gameplay, no, cc is just as useful as tanking. And dont tell me that I need to adhere to what you define as an "upstanding poster." All that kind of condescension does is piss people off. I really do not care at all if I am spreading a "misunderstanding." Because it isn't. It's an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble_Cactus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) He was worth it when I got him and is still worth obtaining. His abilities were cried about since his release. There has to be a line drawn. His soul punch is just fine along with his terrify. They are CC to disengage enemies. His 3 is suppose to support his team with additional vitality orbs and his 4 is real bread and butter. You pick the units you need to assist you through your mission and carry on to completion. Where does having more armor benefit him? Tank stats fall off after 40min T4 survival. Beyond that, CC is King of the land. Nekros' crowd control abilities are more like the duke of a small fiefdom compared to what every other frame has to offer. I see a lot of people saying that most Nekros players don't know how to use Shadows and Terrify "right." I think I use them correctly; summon minions before enemies appear in the room, pick them off as they're distracted, loot the bodies for my team. Or summon them when I'm rezzing someone (the knockdown from a Bombard or Shield Lancer at your side is a nifty bonus). But they don't make Nekros' Desecrate job any less boring, and if I wanted a similar type of CC done better, I'd get a Nyx. Terrify, meanwhile, is unreliable because 1.) It has a hard cap on how many enemies it can fear, and 2.) It makes enemies harder to kill because they're all running away and zigzagging everywhere. If it had no target limit and slowed the enemies, then it would be a very solid CC tool. You're right though when it comes to buffing Nekros' armor. He doesn't need it. Even at levels where armor matters, good dodging and movement will do far more for you than tanking hits will when playing as Nekros. Edited September 10, 2014 by Noble_Cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRgisIocus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Remove Terrify enemy cap, boom Nekros is boss now. It doesn't even need the slow, I mean it already reduces armor and enemies don't fight back. Stop being lazy and chase the enemy down, it not like it will shoot you while you run after him. His other abilities are good as they are. Soul Punch can be used to knock heavies away. Desecrate provides air, health orbs, energy orbs and ammo plus of course mods and resources. SotD while it does have crappy AI it doesn't matter much. They are not meant to do damage, they are meant to take the aggro away from the team and they do that very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble_Cactus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Remove Terrify enemy cap, boom Nekros is boss now. It doesn't even need the slow, I mean it already reduces armor and enemies don't fight back. Stop being lazy and chase the enemy down, it not like it will shoot you while you run after him. His other abilities are good as they are. Soul Punch can be used to knock heavies away. Desecrate provides air, health orbs, energy orbs and ammo plus of course mods and resources. SotD while it does have crappy AI it doesn't matter much. They are not meant to do damage, they are meant to take the aggro away from the team and they do that very well. When enemies stop being killed in one hit, having them all run away at high speeds means you're not going to be able to kill them all. You're just delaying the inevitable when they all come back to kill you. Feared enemies also like getting themselves stuck in weird nooks and crannies as they scatter all over the place, which means my team and I have to go hunting down random Lancers that are cowering behind some wall at the other end of the room. So it's not a matter of being lazy. It's a matter of having bad CC, because this isn't like an MMORPG where spell autotargeting takes care of aiming at feared enemies.. Edited September 10, 2014 by Noble_Cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 CC > Armor Higher Armor doesn't kill anything. After your 50minutes your Valkyr will go down like the other warframes. The scaling doesn't care about your armor. Valkyr's armor is overkill for the normal content levels. VVVVV This is what awaits you at 1hrs+ in (This was at 2hrs+). Armor is never going to compensate for the massive damage increase by mobs. First off 65>70 minutes is more where youll find trouble and thats if youre not with CC Second CC is more important in that fake end game that doesnt even matter Whatever youre trying to say here doesnt matter Wasted time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRgisIocus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) @Noble_Cactus not every frame needs perfect cc like Radial Blind. Terrify is meant to get enemies away from Nekros, not turn the enemy off (again, like Radial Blind). Terrify already does its job, it gives breathing space (summon those Shadows for when the enemy comes back) and also reduces armor. It doesn't need a slow, it needs the hard cap removed to make sure no enemies are unaffected leaving you unprotected during the time you cant recast. And as Azawarau said 2 hours at t4 surv isn't endgame, so abilities shouldnt be balanced around that. The current endgame is Vay Hek and Lephantis and the highest I've seen them scale is lvl 65. So lvl 60-70 mobs is our current endgame. IIRC that means 40 to 50 minutes in t4. Going past that is pointless aside from creating a fake challenge for yourself. Edited September 10, 2014 by RexRgisIocus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 @Noble_Cactus not every frame needs perfect cc like Radial Blind. Terrify is meant to get enemies away from Nekros, not turn the enemy off (again, like Radial Blind). Terrify already does its job, it gives breathing space (summon those Shadows for when the enemy comes back) and also reduces armor. It doesn't need a slow, it needs the hard cap removed to make sure no enemies are unaffected leaving you unprotected during the time you cant recast. And as Azawarau said 2 hours at t4 surv isn't endgame, so abilities shouldnt be balanced around that. The current endgame is Vay Hek and Lephantis and the highest I've seen them scale is lvl 65. So lvl 60-70 mobs is our current endgame. IIRC that means 40 to 50 minutes in t4. Going past that is pointless aside from creating a fake challenge for yourself. Do you ever directly quote anything .-.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRgisIocus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 @Azawarau I don't know how to quote xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 @Azawarau I don't know how to quote xD Bottom right where it says quote o-o You can multi quote too and just click the box when youre ready to answer them all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRgisIocus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Is it really that easy? Since I saw no change in the text box I assumed it wasn't working for me. Edit: Just tried it, didn't work. And I don't understand how to manually quote and from what I do understand it would be too much work. Edited September 10, 2014 by RexRgisIocus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Is it really that easy? Since I saw no change in the text box I assumed it wasn't working for me. Edit: Just tried it, didn't work. And I don't understand how to manually quote and from what I do understand it would be too much work. Way off topic but ill have to make a video or something when i have less busy hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViLeDeth Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 First off 65>70 minutes is more where youll find trouble and thats if youre not with CC Second CC is more important in that fake end game that doesnt even matter Whatever youre trying to say here doesnt matter Wasted time There is a post within this thread that says just that and its from me. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/307575-3-days-away-from-nekros-birthday/page-2#entry3486126 T4 is not high tier and going beyond a certain point is optional. T4 is just another farming simulation. Perhaps you got worked up because you use Valkyr as your main and misunderstood what the argument was about? I'll be hard pressed to believe you are unwilling to correct your misinterpretation after you've read that linked post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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