A Solution To Power Efficiency!

[Neskartu]

Hey all!

 

So I've been reading through the forums on and off for a couple weeks now and have noticed several posts about first damage abilities on warframes and the power efficiency thereof, i. e. Volt's Shock, Ash's Shuriken, etc. And of course, Streamline and Flow help alleviate some of the problem but I think there is a better answer.

 

As you may know, a maxed out Streamline mod on your 'frame gives you 30% power efficiency. So when you're using your 100 power uber, you get that down to 70. Pretty nice if you just want to spam it. But your weak, (usually) single target damage ability tied to the 1 button? That goes from 25 power to 19 (or 20 if you round up). Meaning that instead of using it 4 times with 100 energy, you use it 5 times. Let's take Volt for example. With a maxed Streamline and no Flow, he's got 150 energy at rank 30. So I could use Overload to clear 2 rooms with no energy pickups or I could use Shock 7 times (8 if you round up). 7 (possible) kills vs. 2 uses of Overload doesn't seem like much of a choice, right? Obviously I'm just going to spam Overload.

 

My solution to this? Give us an alternate choice to Streamline. Streamline, with its percentage based power efficiency, heavily favors more expensive skills and encourages the spamming of ubers. If there were a mod that gave flat energy efficiency, say 3 base with 4 ranks giving us a total of 15 energy off at max, that would give us a cool new way build! Shock, instead of costing 19 (or 20) with maxed Streamline becomes 10 with a maxed flat energy efficiency mod, meaning that with 150 energy, I could spam it 15 times without Flow equipped!

 

Now, here's the drawback. Clearly, some people would want to equip both, to get the most out of their powers. But that would just be too much. How to fix it? Make them mutually exclusive! Can't have the %-based efficiency if you have the flat efficiency equipped and vice versa. So you can build your 'frame to go uber heavy with streamline, or pump out more instances of smaller damage with flat efficiency. And with the highest flat efficiency available being 15, it doesn't overpower Streamline, just competes with it in an alternate way.

 

Feel free to leave any questions, comments and scathing remarks below! Personally, I would love for this to be a mod! C'mon DE!

Edited April 18, 2013 by Neskartu

[Thallisick]

An interesting idea, to say the least. MORE SPAMMING!

[KageNoShini]

I like this, would love to be able to use my Ash's shurikens more often than once every now and again.

[Deost]

Yeah. I'd like to be able to use the DPS abils more often. The single target ones are all kind of ho-hum when it comes down to it..

 

The AOE/Utility powers are the better ones, imo.

 

Hopefully we'll see either an increase in power or a decrease in their cost. 

[LazyTemplar]

Simpler solutions tend to be better, in that they lead to less unexpected issues.  So I'd rather just see a straight up power buff or energy cost decrease.  

[Neskartu]

Simpler solutions tend to be better, in that they lead to less unexpected issues.  So I'd rather just see a straight up power buff or energy cost decrease.  

 

That's what I'm aiming for. A mod with a flat energy efficiency effect seems like a fairly simple solution.

 

EDIT: I guess a better way of saying that is: I feel that a mod is a simple solution. What do you think would be the drawback of adding a flat energy efficiency mod to rival Streamline?

Edited April 18, 2013 by Neskartu

[LazyTemplar]

Well first, I don't actually see streamline as benefiting high cost powers more than low cost powers.  A percent is a percent.  If you have 20% efficiency, you save 20 energy per 100 used whether that was from 1 uber or 4 uses of a 25 cost skill.  The real issue is just that it's a lot better right now to cast 1 overload rather than 4 shocks.  I think making 4 shocks as useful as 1 overload is a much more straightforward solution than introducing a new mod.

 

As for problems that might occur from a new mod, let me just speculate a bit:  

 

Low cost powers would have to be balanced with the flat energy reduction in mind.  That means that for people choosing streamline instead, they would have to be less effective per energy consumed than higher cost powers.  (This is the situation for many frames now, but I don't think it's a good balance point).  If the powers are balanced in this way, it will encourage people to either unequip high cost skills or unequip low cost skills, rather than taking all 4.  

 

To me it is a lot more interesting to play a frame with 4 powers than a class with 1 or 2.  So I think of the "flat reduction" mod as a less desirable alternative to balancing low and high cost powers, because it makes gameplay less interesting.  It also reduces the potential for synergy between high and low cost powers within a frame.  For instance, using rhino charge/slash dash/speed to get into position for using an uber.  

 

But that's just my intuition speaking.  I could be wrong about this.  I'm certainly not a game designer, and there are probably arguments for a flat reduction mod that I haven't taken into consideration.  

 

Edit:  

 

Oh, and on the alternative side from the "ubers are the most useful skills" frames, we currently have frames where the lower-cost skills are either more prevalent or more useful.  For instance, reducing the cost of slash dash by 15 would make it far too useful.  And the Loki has powers that cost 25, 25, 50, and 100, with an uber that is generally thought of as trailing behind his other skills.  While I am sure there are ways to balance them even with the addition of a flat efficiency mod, it seems to add additional complexity to an already imbalanced situation.  

Edited April 18, 2013 by LazyTemplar

[Neskartu]

While I agree with you on Slash Dash, specific Warframe balance shouldn't be taken into account when dealing with % based reduction vs. flat reduction. To say that Shock, Shuriken or Fireball is on par with Slash Dash is ludicrous.

 

I have to, respectfully, disagree with the idea of unequipping high/low cost powers depending on what reduction you're taking. A 15 point flat reduction would still affect higher cost powers. I'll stick with Volt as my example since he's the one I've played the most. Let's also assume we're just working with 150 energy, as that is Volt's unmodded energy total at rank 30.

 

So, your first point, that percent based means you save the same amount of energy no matter which skills are being used, is technically and mathematically correct. 6 Shocks still comes out to 150 power, so 30% reduction would mean you'd have 30 energy left over, enough for 1 more Shock. Let me ask you though: Realistically, when will you ever take 6 Shocks (or Shurikens or Fireballs) over 2 of your Ubers?

 

Personally, I don't like being a 1 trick pony. I don't like having to save up my energy just for my 4th ability (or whatever ability on each 'frame) that has been deemed as being the most 'cost efficient'. If I'm running Volt with a group of 4 and use my Shock, no one would be faulted for telling me that I should just save it for Overload instead because I'll get more bang for my buck.

 

But if I have the ability to throw out 15 Shocks at 10 energy apiece, that comes more in line with the Uber's power. Plus, my Uber is still getting 15 point reduction, meaning that an 85 point Uber can still be managed after using 6 Shocks. To sum up 4 Shocks/Shurikens/Fireballs =/= 1 Uber. Same energy cost but big difference in payoff.

 

EDIT: What's wrong with the formatting?! I have spaces between paragraphs dang it!

EDIT2: Phew, okay, formatting fixed.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Neskartu

[Cytancy]

Wall incoming:

Mutually exclusive mods just adds tedium to an already complex and confusing mod system for new players. Adding special restrictions on what should be an intuitive mod system simply does not make sense and would bode poorly in the long run.

Energy efficiency as it is now fulfills it's purpose for all abilities and should benefit all skills equally; however, this is apparently not the case due to the nature of skill effectiveness and the size of energy pools. That means the problem lies in balancing the skill costs to benefit ratios rather than mods. Having two mods that literally fulfill the same purpose could cause potential future balance issues and add an unnecessary second layer of caution.

Lesser abilities should definitely have costs adjustments so they fall in line with the 4th of abilities of warframes. Some skills have done this excellently (e.g. Link, Rhino Skin, Smokescreen, Decoy, etc.) but the majority of skills suffer from poor cost to benefit ratios (especially pure damage abilities on caster-heavy frames). The majority of cost effective "non-ultimate" skills are either combat steroids (invis, invuln, silence) or some sort of crowd control (eg. decoy, moult, chaos) whereas damage focused abilities fall short.

The questions has to be asked how many of "ability x" am I willing to sacrifice for "ultimate y" and vice versa. For example, Ash's 4th ability blade storm costs 100 energy, deals 1000 damage (or more) to 13 enemies in an area while being homing and granting invulnerability whereas shuriken, an ability that costs 25 energy, only deals 350 damage and max rank, and has questionable accuracy at medium-long range. So how many would shurikens would you want to throw for 100 energy if you decided not to use blade storm? Obviously at least 13, but probably more, because the skill is imprecise, non-homing, and does not deal as much damage nor can it quickly deal with multiple enemies.

This problem plagues most warframes in some sort way, shape, or form. You can make skill comparisons for most warframes and realize energy costs are a major problem; every player wants to maximize his or her capabilities with a limited resource (energy) and having improperly balanced cost skills forces players to lean towards using only one or two abilities to feel maximally effective. The Ash-shuriken-to-blade-storm argument can be made for several ability comparisons: (Frost: Freeze/Ice Wave vs Avalanche, Ember: Fireball vs Everything Else, Volt: Shock vs Overload, Saryn: Venom vs Miasma). Unfortunately, this just goes to show that a lot of potential gameplay and class-defining ability-usage is being hindered by poorly thought out numbers.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Cytancy

[NinaV]

One way to help this could be that the first damage abilities frames have get cheaper cost and/or additional effects as they get upgraded.

[LazyTemplar]

A lot of my concerns were covered by Cytancy.  But to specifically address some of the things you mentioned:  

 

 

 

Personally, I don't like being a 1 trick pony. I don't like having to save up my energy just for my 4th ability (or whatever ability on each 'frame) that has been deemed as being the most 'cost efficient'. If I'm running Volt with a group of 4 and use my Shock, no one would be faulted for telling me that I should just save it for Overload instead because I'll get more bang for my buck.

 

But if I have the ability to throw out 15 Shocks at 10 energy apiece, that comes more in line with the Uber's power. Plus, my Uber is still getting 15 point reduction, meaning that an 85 point Uber can still be managed after using 6 Shocks. To sum up 4 Shocks/Shurikens/Fireballs =/= 1 Uber. Same energy cost but big difference in payoff.

 

 

I already stated that 4 shocks isn't equivalent to 1 overload.  My point is, how wouldn't these problems be solved by either decreasing the base cost of shock or increasing the damage or utility of shock?  Why can't shock just cost 15 energy to begin with?  Or have better AoE crowd control?  Or do two or three times it's current damage?  

 

I've explained some potential pitfalls of adding a flat cost decrease mod.  Namely, increasing complexity and discouraging taking all skills.  Now you need to explain why a flat cost decrease mod is needed over a simple rebalance of low cost powers.  

[Neskartu]

A lot of my concerns were covered by Cytancy.  But to specifically address some of the things you mentioned:  

 

I already stated that 4 shocks isn't equivalent to 1 overload.  My point is, how wouldn't these problems be solved by either decreasing the base cost of shock or increasing the damage or utility of shock?  Why can't shock just cost 15 energy to begin with?  Or have better AoE crowd control?  Or do two or three times it's current damage?  

 

I've explained some potential pitfalls of adding a flat cost decrease mod.  Namely, increasing complexity and discouraging taking all skills.  Now you need to explain why a flat cost decrease mod is needed over a simple rebalance of low cost powers.  

A) Complexity

- Adding a new mod does not increase complexity. It adds options. Options are good. The only complex part would be the mutual exclusivity with Streamline. Adding a line of text to the mod that states its incompatibility with Streamline would remove that complexity.

 

B) Discouraging taking all skills

 

Low cost powers would have to be balanced with the flat energy reduction in mind.  That means that for people choosing streamline instead, they would have to be less effective per energy consumed than higher cost powers.  (This is the situation for many frames now, but I don't think it's a good balance point).  If the powers are balanced in this way, it will encourage people to either unequip high cost skills or unequip low cost skills, rather than taking all 4.

 

- People already ditch skills they perceive as "useless" for more valuable mods. And to be honest, I really don't understand your reasoning for this argument. Why would a flat energy reduction mod of 15 points encourage people to not equip their Uber or anything else? That makes no sense. You still get 15 points off your Uber's cost and it still provides an affect that none of your other skills do.

 

Why I feel this mod is a good idea:

 

1. Easy to implement. A new mod will take significantly less work to implement than adjusting each individual Warframe's abilities.

 

2. When some character's abilities costs are reduced, like Ash, Volt and Ember, others who have damage abilities  whose costs aren't changed, like Excalibur and Slash Dash, some people will feel that the devs are playing "favorites" and complain about the ability of these frames to spam their abilities.

 

3. Streamline favors high cost abilities. 100 energy cost Uber becomes 70 energy. 25 cost normal ability becomes 20 energy. Still 30% on both but the Uber is still preferred. With flat reduction of 15 points, 100 energy Uber becomes 85, 25 normal becomes 10. Now normal ability is spammable without costing the frame the ability to use Uber.

 

4. The difference between Streamline and flat energy reduction is nearly minimal as a whole! It won't throw the game out of balance, confuse new players or subtract from the entertainment value of the game as a whole. It simply applies the energy reduction in a different way than Streamline. Why not give players the option to choose which way they want it?

[LazyTemplar]

Complexity:  

 

By complexity, I mean it adds to the complexity of the system that DE has to balance.  DE would then have to balance around base energy costs, streamlined energy costs, and flat reduction energy costs.  This is not a positive unless that type of addition is really necessary.  I am arguing that it isn't.  

 

Discouraging a full skill set:  

 

Having a flat reduction mod discourages taking all skills because you won't be able to balance relative energy utility.  With a flat reduction mod equipped, ubers become more expensive vs an equipped streamline.  With a streamline equipped, low cost skills are more expensive vs flat reduction mods.  You can never achieve a point where their relative cost is equivalent for one mod without making the skill overpowered with the other mod.  So people will be pushed to choose one set or the other.  

 

Favoring some frames over others:  

 

I really don't care if people think the devs are picking on some frames and favoring others.  I just want the frames balanced.  I think adjusting skills will be required to do that.  

 

Streamline does not favor high cost abilities:

 

If it's reducing the same percentage, it's not preferred.  It isn't reasonable to compare one cast of a 25 energy power to 1 cast of a 100 energy power.  

 

If it really doesn't make that much of a difference, it isn't needed:  

 

I argue that it does make a significant difference, especially if we consider things like slash dash only costing 10 energy.  If you don't think it would really make a difference, then the mod isn't needed.  

[Neskartu]

Clearly, we disagree with each other over these points and there's no point in further arguing in circles. Thank you for your input.

[FateZero]

It's pretty balanced right now. It just seems unbalanced because you have the math wrong. The correct equation is X/(1+Y) X=cost of skill, Y=the percent of streamline in decimal. (I.E 30%=0.3)

30% streamline with only drop an ultimate skill to 77, not 70. (I.E with your example of overload, the volt with 150 energy can only use it once, not twice, while shock is still at 7 times.)
25->19
50->38
75->58
100->77

Let's look at how much energy is saved with each skill based on 100 energy (Not including the weird cost ones of like 10, 35, etc.)

You save a total of 24 energy if you use skill one 4 times.

You save a total of 24 energy if you use skill two 2 times.

You could save a total of 23 energy (rounded up) if you use skill three 1 time. (75-58=17, 17*1.33~=22.6~)
You save 23 energy if you use skill four 1 time.

 

Overall you save roughly the same amount of energy across the 4 skills (Based on 100 base energy), so using one skill over the other doesn't really save you more energy than using another.
 

[Neskartu]

@FateZero

 

You are correct in that my math is off (Which is weird because 30% of 100 is 30, not 23).  And I also understand that streamline saves you the same amount of energy no matter which skills you're using. I get that. 4 skills that use 100 energy is the same as 1 skill that uses 100 energy. Quite right.

 

But, to me, it's not about the total energy saved, it's about the economy of using those skills. Do you get the same effect from using 4 shurikens that you do when you use 1 bladestorm? They payoff is vastly different. By the numbers, you are absolutely correct. But in practice, there's a huge difference between using skill 1 4 times and skill 4 1 time, regardless of how much energy is used.

 

And that's why I want a flat reduction mod, because with a flat 15 point reduction, you can spam those less powerful damage abilities more often, making them more useful while still giving a slight, but not as powerful as streamline, reduction to more expensive skills. Does my reasoning make sense or am I just wrong on all accounts?

[Cytancy]

@Neskartu

 

You are not wrong, but the problem you are complaining about is inherent in the design of the abilities and their energy costs, not mod options. You're right, four shurikens is definitely not worth one bladestorm, but is that because there's no mod to make it so shuriken is an effective option in comparison to blade storm? No, it's because the abilities themselves have bad cost-to-benefit ratios and should, before mods, feel like they are worth their costs. That means shuriken either has to do more or cost less at base in order for ability balance to come into line. The purpose of mods is to amplify what is already there, not to become a prerequisite for playing a certain way (shuriken spamming as opposed to blade storm usage).

 

Also, there should never be two mods that directly affect the same stat from a design standpoint. Look at the current mods for example, lets say you want to run around more often without walking, you have two options: Stamina Regen and Stamina Max. Each of these stats helps you spend more time running and less time walking but since they affect different stats, they force the player to make a decision, which is whether to get one, the other, or both. This is good design because despite the fact that both mods affecting running (and blocking/meleeing), they affect different stats which means they favor certain styles of gameplay. Stamina regen would favor players who run often, but not long distances (e.g. melee players) whereas stamina max would favor players who run long distances from room to room and like to get into certain positions before they switch to walking/standing while shooting. And now there's the high cost option for players who want both since they want to be running almost all the time for long distances. 

 

Now you're thinking, doesn't having a flat energy reduction mod and percent based reduction mod also mean the same thing? Wouldn't it allow players who like using non-ultimates abilities more often to do so and players who prefer to use ultimate abilities more often could also do the same? Unfortunately, the answer is no because they directly affect the same stat and thus, would cause a design conflict.

 

Besides already requiring the implementation of a toxic mechanic (mutual exclusivity in mods), a flat reduction mod would directly outclass a % reduction mod or vice versa depending on the numbers which would mean a balance nightmare (Think about excalibur's jump cost and other abilities). This means some ability costs would become nearly free or low to the point that you would only ever want to use it maximize the effectiveness from your energy. This results in a reverse of the previous problem of cost effectiveness. Suddenly, some lesser abilities might become too cost effective when compared to the fourth abilities and would thus discourage the use of the fourth ability which again, would cause warframes to become one-dimensional in terms of ability usage. 

 

Now, you're probably still thinking this remedies the problem to some extent because then non-ultimate abilites come more into line with the costs of ultimate abilities because lets say a 10 energy reduction means 90 energy blade storms or 6 15 energy shurikens. Sure, this seems more balanced, but ONLY if you choose to use a flat reduction mod. Players will always lean towards the mod that maximizes their effectiveness per point of energy, and all and all, the 4th abilities for most warframes are most cost effective which tends to mean players will still use % based mods (unless flat reduction goes up to 20 or 30 which would be ridiculous). This means warframes will still have the issue of cost-to-benefits ratios UNLESS you decide to use a flat reduction mod. Warframes should not require a mod to have balanced relative ability energy costs in the same way that you don't need a mod to have balanced movement costs. 

 

This is also a problem that lies within flat bonuses in general (which goes to explain why all mods are % based) because flat bonuses completely ignore the base stats and intentions of the warframe. For example, lets pretend shield bonus mods were flat and at max rank gave 900 shields. Now a rhino which had 150 base shield would have 1050 shield (1350 at max warframe rank) and an excalibur which has base shield 100 would have 1000 base shield (1200 max rank). The shield difference becomes negligible due to the excalibur scaling with shield mods just the same way as a rhino despite it being a supposed tank frames that sacrifices mobility for tankiness. Now imagine if other mods were flat (e.g. armor, power max, health) and you can begin to see the problem with using flat values for mods.

[Neskartu]

Hmm. Thank you for your response Cytancy. You certainly raise a lot of good points that I hadn't considered before. A new mod probably wouldn't be the answer to the problem.