Update 7.8.0 A Fist Full Of Hams!

[SparklyNoises]

 

In an attempt to deter abort farming in pub games this change was introduced.

 

CHANGES

- Aborting missions now forfeits any obtained credits, mods, resources or blueprints, earned XP is still rewarded

 

This is incorrect, what it should say is, "Failing to complete missions now forfeits any obtained credits, mods, resources or blueprints, earned XP is still rewarded."

Unfortunately this includes, crashing, running out of revives, getting stuck in the geometry, power outages, your kid turns off your PC, cat ate all the ram, etc.

This will also drastically change how people play (or don't play) defense missions.

 

Unfortunately, not only will this punish everyone (especially those with bad connections), but the people it punishes the least are the reason it happened in the first place.

People who abort farm in pub games will still leave if they don't get what they want, it does not matter.

They will only stay to completion the three times they get what they are looking for, and even then it will be a Loki race to the finish (R.I.P. wave dashing)

 

I open this thread to speculation on how long it will take to hotfix this obvious mistake, and how they might change the game to achieve the intended effects.

(I would suggest either shortening boss levels, or possibly moving the boss to the end of the level? )

[Probta16]

I bet in Monday or tuesday they will do something.

 

Weekend is to see how the lab rats will act.

[Effef]

There is literally no point in me or several of my friends playing with this patch because our connections make it so that we would lose everything far too often.

 

Little more nuance with the changes next time, if you please.

[Zyfe3rX]

Punish the quitters not legit players......

Hitting abOrt button = no reward s

For everything else rewards must be given

[matrixEXO]

I don't like the change in weapon for the Lancers actually. The patch just buffed them and using a new Warframe (as well as trying to melee) I got eviscerated in Vor mission. Shields end up going below 0 most times I run for a kill (if there are at least 6 enemies nearby, it goes to 0 in about roughly 2s).

Also, randomly having GROUPED Grineers at bunches of 6 all glue-walking. Weird but true.

[The_Erinyes]

Don't abort the game for other players if someone quits - and lock them from rejoining same game.  Penalise them.  Not everyone else.  Also, I don't get why one person aborting the mission does it for everyone else.  

[lncarnation]

It's not a punishment, it's more or less reason to not die or fail missions. Realistically speaking those who aborted before to keep rewards, if given the chance would be willing to suicide to keep the rewards. That is how the thought processing goes of people who like to use game mechanics for personal benefit. There is no logical way to preserve the benefits of those who die, not even enough to protect those who simply time out, or glitch out. I'm willing to accept terms like these under the circumstance that I usually don't die, and when I die I know for a fact I'm usually the one at fault for it.

[Sherbniz]

Don't abort the game for other players if someone quits - and lock them from rejoining same game.  Penalise them.  Not everyone else.  Also, I don't get why one person aborting the mission does it for everyone else.  

 

Good idea, how about aborting a mission locks it temporarily for 2-5 minutes?

 

Not sure about failing, I suppose farmers would work around being unable to abort by just getting themselves killed.

 

I guess a way to fix that would be:

 

Failing a mission locks your mission rewards, resources and found blueprints in that mission. In order to get them, you have to replay the mission and beat it.

 

Naturally, only rewards from the last failed mission will be "stored" that way (so no one tries to stack up rewards in them), so failing again will clean the slate.

 

There could be a counter of 10 minutes, which would be how long your lost haul will be remembered and the mission can be re-attempted.

 

Of course, stored items are only awarded to those who found them, so no one can join in and rake in the loot double.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Sherbniz

[Xtorma]

I don't think they can code the game to diferentiate between someone dc'ing and someone just unplugging thier cord. ME3 had the same dilemma. they solved it the same way, if you didn't extract ,(stay until the end of the mission) you got nothing. Guess this is a case of "be careful what you wish for, you just may get it" 

[TheTenthDoc]

Punish the quitters not legit players......

Hitting abOrt button = no reward s

For everything else rewards must be given

 

Problem is, getting stuck in the geometry/broken objectives/maps (which along with Defense missions are the few times you deserve the rewards even if you failed) requires you to press the abort button.

[IcarusNine]

It's not a punishment, it's more or less reason to not die or fail missions. Realistically speaking those who aborted before to keep rewards, if given the chance would be willing to suicide to keep the rewards. That is how the thought processing goes of people who like to use game mechanics for personal benefit. There is no logical way to preserve the benefits of those who die, not even enough to protect those who simply time out, or glitch out. I'm willing to accept terms like these under the circumstance that I usually don't die, and when I die I know for a fact I'm usually the one at fault for it.

However, if you die and there are other players, you don't necessarily leave the game and that won't force a host migration on them.  You'd still have to abort after you die, which would count as an abort and not a failure.  Thus, if you want to avoid the abort punishment by dying intentionally, you'd only save time if you're in a solo, which will have no negative effect on other players.

[Madotsuki]

Simple solution. The quitter problem started because players would quit a game after killing a boss and taking its loot. Why do people do that? Because the boss is, oh i dunno, NEAR THE START OF THE BLOODY LEVEL?? Why the hell would I want to spend 1-2 minutes getting to the boss, and then spend 10 minutes getting to extraction?? The whole update 7.8 solution to the problem was a heavyhanded kneejerk reaction to the incessant whining that not only does NOT solve the original problem, but punishes honest players instead, and in fact motivates more unhealthy behaviour (quitting on wave 5 of Defense, playing ultra-conservatively, more hostility towards noobs since they might drag you down etc.).

 

How to actually solve the problem? Make 2/3 of the map getting to the boss, and 1/3 getting to extraction afterwards. Same total mission length, duh. And to keep the whole "fighting your way out" aspect that some people adore, have spawnrate double or keep spawning waves continuously after killing a boss. Since over half of the map is done already, farmers will be MOTIVATED, NOT FORCED, to finish the level and get the extra credits/mods/xp while he's at it. He's gone this far, why not see it through?

 

Honestly, sometimes I facepalm so hard at DE's decisions. Nothing against you guys, your game is awesome and you're ultra-responsive to feedback, but PLEASE think harder before you enforce some kind of new law on the populace -_-

[Insanityman]

 

Good idea, how about aborting a mission locks it temporarily for 2-5 minutes?

 

Not sure about failing, I suppose farmers would work around being unable to abort by just getting themselves killed.

 

I guess a way to fix that would be:

 

Failing a mission locks your mission rewards, resources and found blueprints in that mission. In order to get them, you have to replay the mission and beat it.

 

Naturally, only rewards from the last failed mission will be "stored" that way (so no one tries to stack up rewards in them), so failing again will clean the slate.

 

There could be a counter of 10 minutes, which would be how long your lost haul will be remembered and the mission can be re-attempted.

 

Of course, stored items are only awarded to those who found them, so no one can join in and rake in the loot double.

This is brilliant, that way, if someone legit fails, and they know there is something in that mission that they really really want, they can go back and try for it.  Rewarding failure is a no-no in my books, but rewarding perserverance? sure, why not?  Any non defence mission would work, stick some of the loot in crates somewhere, and more of it on the enemies, making a full clear (or close to that) needed.

 

I'm not 100% sure how to apply this to a defence mission if other players join, unless the new players see only new player loot and the person on the do-over just has their loot replaced at the appropriate 5 level interval until they make it back to par with the previous attempt and then they sync up with the new guys.  It'd just suck to do a do-over knowing all your teammates got a Banshee BP.

[neKroMancer]

As the above poster mentioned, there is no way to differentiate DC from other sources of trouble (cat eats RAM, your daughter pour a glass of water on the CPU, etc). It ends up in the same result at the server side, you simply disconnect from the server. ME3MP faced the same dilemma and the same solution was used - no extraction, no reward.

 

However, I think it implied that only failing a mission (aka, group wiped) as the cause for such consequence. If you die in the mission and somehow, your teammate manages to reach the extraction point and extract, you should get what you earned thus far from the mission.

 

@Madotsuki : The mission length is randomized. Your observation regarding placement of boss' tile is invalid and your response to this update is even more kneejerk than DE's decision. However, the improvement you suggested is good but in the same time it will also make the mission more predictable. 

[SparklyNoises]

(Everything I've been thinking)

 

I like you ;D

But seriously, this is how you patch a game.

You don't make sweeping changes because it's easier to just break the game until people hate what they are doing.

You encourage people to play in a way that is best for everyone with incentives and a light touch.

 

@Madotsuki : The mission length is randomized. Your observation regarding placement of boss' tile is invalid and your response to this update is even more kneejerk than DE's decision. However, the improvement you suggested is good but in the same time it will also make the mission more predictable. 

 

No, you are 100% wrong, the mission length is not completely randomized, it is already predictable, and that's why its so easy to farm.

If you had actually ran bosses for any length of time you'd know that its nearly if not exactly the same number of tiles to the boss from the beginning of the mission EVERY TIME (its also very few), the remainder of which AFTER the boss is randomized within parameters of a certain length (which is currently entirely too long.)

Edited April 20, 2013 by SparklyNoises

[Madotsuki]

As the above poster mentioned, there is no way to differentiate DC from other sources of trouble (cat eats RAM, your daughter pour a glass of water on the CPU, etc). It ends up in the same result at the server side, you simply disconnect from the server. ME3MP faced the same dilemma and the same solution was used - no extraction, no reward.

 

However, I think it implied that only failing a mission (aka, group wiped) as the cause for such consequence. If you die in the mission and somehow, your teammate manages to reach the extraction point and extract, you should get what you earned thus far from the mission.

 

@Madotsuki : The mission length is randomized. Your observation regarding placement of boss' tile is invalid and your response to this update is even more kneejerk than DE's decision. However, the improvement you suggested is good but in the same time it will also make the mission more predictable. 

The 2 minute 10 minute thing was an EXAMPLE. And it doesn't have to be exactly 2/3, 1/3, i was just giving an example of approximately where the boss ought to be located. Of course i know missions are randomized, how long do you think i've played this game? And my response is not a kneejerk, I've been suggesting this stuff even before 7.8 when people were screaming about rushers/quitters.

[Azure_Kytia]

Problem is, getting stuck in the geometry/broken objectives/maps (which along with Defense missions are the few times you deserve the rewards even if you failed) requires you to press the abort button.

I find I break maps far too often, because I like exploring, and deliberately going off the beaten track, even when seriously playing.

 

An /Unstuck command would do wonders if it checked first which tile you were in (or last in), and then checked where the default spawn point for that tile is. The Default spawn is the point where items reappear if they fall into a teleport volume.

[Shinobi_no_Kami]

Because of 7.8, now rushers can actually cause you to lose your BP, resource, credit, etc etc. This update will cause an even bigger divide between the completionist and the rusher playerbase for sure.

 

And I always find it strange that the bosses are at the beginning of the stage instead at the last part of the stage like typical games.

[Oz270]

First i want to state that i I play with a pretty bad connection (3G tethering to my mobile phone ( which kills any connection if a phone call comes in ))

 

I don't see a problem with the current changes with mission abort.

If something happens that means i have to abort like neKroMancer says :

 

 (cat eats RAM, your daughter pour a glass of water on the CPU, etc). 

 

It means that there's bigger things to worry about then missing out on flow or mulitshot.
I don't see the reason that people are raging against something that should of been in the game since open beta started.

how many games out there lets you proceed with the next stage with rewards if you fail a mission?

 

before people that disagree with me flame me, I also want to say that I tend to abort missions a lot, not due to bosswinquit , more like my connection is so bad that I get stuck and lag out.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Oz270

[Boxyninja]

 

Good idea, how about aborting a mission locks it temporarily for 2-5 minutes?

 

Not sure about failing, I suppose farmers would work around being unable to abort by just getting themselves killed.

 

I guess a way to fix that would be:

 

Failing a mission locks your mission rewards, resources and found blueprints in that mission. In order to get them, you have to replay the mission and beat it.

 

Naturally, only rewards from the last failed mission will be "stored" that way (so no one tries to stack up rewards in them), so failing again will clean the slate.

 

There could be a counter of 10 minutes, which would be how long your lost haul will be remembered and the mission can be re-attempted.

 

Of course, stored items are only awarded to those who found them, so no one can join in and rake in the loot double.

 

this is great. on defense missions now tho i find that people are scared to go to wave 10 now and its a pain when ur on the last wave for extraction and your team dies and loses everything. i think that since defense missions cant really be farmed like bosses they should be left out of the new rule of fail = nothing.  

It's not a punishment, it's more or less reason to not die or fail missions. Realistically speaking those who aborted before to keep rewards, if given the chance would be willing to suicide to keep the rewards. That is how the thought processing goes of people who like to use game mechanics for personal benefit. There is no logical way to preserve the benefits of those who die, not even enough to protect those who simply time out, or glitch out. I'm willing to accept terms like these under the circumstance that I usually don't die, and when I die I know for a fact I'm usually the one at fault for it.

 

it is a punishment tho. now( liek i said before) people are scared to go far in defence missions or even do higher level missions. people with bad internet connection(like me) are punished when they try to play with other people because half the time u dc in the middle of a fire fight/boss fight/defence wave and get screwed over when everything starts to focus u.

I don't like the change in weapon for the Lancers actually. The patch just buffed them and using a new Warframe (as well as trying to melee) I got eviscerated in Vor mission. Shields end up going below 0 most times I run for a kill (if there are at least 6 enemies nearby, it goes to 0 in about roughly 2s).

Also, randomly having GROUPED Grineers at bunches of 6 all glue-walking. Weird but true.

then dont run into groups of enemies in low level warframes? the patch didnt buff them it really only changed the sound and look of their gun they do just as much damage as last patch to my warframes. 

[neKroMancer]

Because of 7.8, now rushers can actually cause you to lose your BP, resource, credit, etc etc. This update will cause an even bigger divide between the completionist and the rusher playerbase for sure.

 

And I always find it strange that the bosses are at the beginning of the stage instead at the last part of the stage like typical games.

How they could possibly make you lose these stuff?

Scenario1 rusher grabs BP and DC - he lose that BP too. The rest of you got into host migration.

Scenario2 rusher reaches extraction point, alone. No countdown since it's not initiate until half of the team got there.

Frankly, these two features got the game back the way it should be played - coop and finish the mission. Jumping onto the bandwagon without looking is a bad habit.

[Inez]

Simple solution. The quitter problem started because players would quit a game after killing a boss and taking its loot. Why do people do that? Because the boss is, oh i dunno, NEAR THE START OF THE BLOODY LEVEL?? Why the hell would I want to spend 1-2 minutes getting to the boss, and then spend 10 minutes getting to extraction?? The whole update 7.8 solution to the problem was a heavyhanded kneejerk reaction to the incessant whining that not only does NOT solve the original problem, but punishes honest players instead, and in fact motivates more unhealthy behaviour (quitting on wave 5 of Defense, playing ultra-conservatively, more hostility towards noobs since they might drag you down etc.).

 

How to actually solve the problem? Make 2/3 of the map getting to the boss, and 1/3 getting to extraction afterwards. Same total mission length, duh. And to keep the whole "fighting your way out" aspect that some people adore, have spawnrate double or keep spawning waves continuously after killing a boss. Since over half of the map is done already, farmers will be MOTIVATED, NOT FORCED, to finish the level and get the extra credits/mods/xp while he's at it. He's gone this far, why not see it through?

 

Honestly, sometimes I facepalm so hard at DE's decisions. Nothing against you guys, your game is awesome and you're ultra-responsive to feedback, but PLEASE think harder before you enforce some kind of new law on the populace -_-

You're my hero.

[SparklyNoises]

how many games out there lets you proceed with the next stage with rewards if you fail a mission?

Warframe does (or did) and thats why a majority of people enjoyed it.

Failure or disconnection had it's downsides already (loss of bonus credit and XP) and the people currently playing liked it that way.

The challenge came from the grind, as is the case with most F2P games.

In good F2P games you are drip fed continuous progress to give you a sense of progression while teasing you with what you could have sooner if you pay money.

With this update they have destroyed the current sense of progression by wratcheting up the tension and the required commitment to play the game.

 

Before, I could start and stop playing whenever I wanted because leaving my own private games wasn't a big deal.

I've already had to break play sessions several times tonight to handle other things, negating my progress.

This is bad game design, it doesn't make me want to play and it certainly isn't convincing my F2P friends to spend money.

[Rydiak]

Rush to the boss and kill it:

Did it drop the blueprint you wanted?  Complete the mission.

Did it drop no blueprint or not the one you wanted? Quit the mission and DC everyone with you.

[Aerensiniac]

This is incorrect, what it should say is, "Failing to complete missions now forfeits any obtained credits, mods, resources or blueprints, earned XP is still rewarded."

Unfortunately this includes, crashing, running out of revives, getting stuck in the geometry, power outages, your kid turns off your PC, cat ate all the ram, etc.

This will also drastically change how people play (or don't play) defense missions.

 

You see why it has been introduced, but you would change this in a way to make the entire concept futile.

If its not on aborting, then abort farmers can continue to do as they please.

Furthermore:

- Crashing: Seen it only once in 100+ hours

- Running out of revives: How about not dieing and/or waiting for a res in a poison cloud?

- Getting stuck in geometry: Seen only once (when host is standing on a stair, the joining client will be stuck under the stair)

- Power outages: Really...? Lets add invading armies too...

- Your kid turns off your PC: Move the box?

- Cat ate my rams: In soviet russia rams are eating cats