I Think The Infested And Stun/knockback Things Need Some Tweaking.

[RPilcrow]

I'm with everyone that thinks this is an issue of people not learning from their mistakes. I've only been stunlocked to death twice, and the second time was coming out of an elevator. Was I enraged? Oh god yes. OH GOD YES! Buuuuuut instead of coming on the forums and whining about "INFECTED OP, INFECTED OP" I took a deep breath and thought what I could do to avoid the same situation. I have yet to have any issues since then. Why? Believe it or not...I can remember the past xD, which means I can plan for the future! Don't go down an elevator if you don't have your ultimate ready (or having both your guns at 10% clip). Spend more time running away and shooting. Use the jump+melee slam atk. I don't know about your melee weapons, but I have yet to come across a pack of anything but ancients that won't all get one shot by the slam.

 

I do understand that some people just aren't very good at games, but there are plenty of options. Perhaps consider that the mission is just a bit out of reach? Maybe you need to go level? Join someone else doing that one mission so you can get through and be about your business? Go find some mods? Grind some credits and buy a new gun? You'd be surprised what finding the right mod can do. Once I found the +dmg mod for my rifle, pluto became a cake walk.

 

Still having troubles? Well, maybe you just aren't very good at shooters. It happens. Some games I'm a pro, some games I'm a monkey with downs syndrome. It happens. Games are supposed to be challenging. What fun is a game that doesn't make you think, or push yourself to improve? Sounds like a boring &#! game to me.

 

There's probably something wrong if an ultimate is needed to escape a situation like that.

 

Of course, I'm of the thought that infested need to be both harder and easier, in a sense. It's way too easy to just kite them around, stick out of reach and never get touched, but it's also easy to fall into the trap of being stunlocked to death, or having a disruptor home in on you and take away just under 300 energy even though you went invisible a few seconds ago, and moved behind it.

 

High-powered Jump+Melee slams are pretty useful (read: amazing) against infested, although I've found that sometimes they've managed to stun me mid-air, wasting away the rest of my shields.

 

Basically, they need work.

[Alkirin]

Just because the infested can kill people with what you all consider to be "cheap and simple" mechanics doesn't mean it's bad.

 

Actually, that's exactly what it means.

 

In and of themselves, stuns aren't really a bad thing.  The problem is that there is no recourse to being stunned repeatedly.  No real way to recover or to mitigate it.  Not even for heavier frames (i.e. Rhino) that you would think would be resistant to that sort of thing.

 

It radically alters the difficulty of any encounter through a means that is mostly out of the influence of the player. That is bad design.  The best that can be said for this is that it doesn't happen too often.

 

Personally, something as simple as a timed recovery on knockdown (like jumping up with a radial slash) could solve this plenty.  They're space ninjas, not ninja turtles.  They shouldn't be so slow to get up when they fall down.

[NalkorRN]

I just finished Solium-Eris, the Deception mission filled with Infested. Since no one joined, I had to handle it solo. How did I handle all those chargers who could take off over 100 points of shield per hit, the leapers, ancient disruptors/toxic ancients and all? Why I was thankful for choosing Energy Siphon as my artifact and used my Supercharged LEX to kill what threats I could just to keep getting energy orbs to power Iron Skin.

 

Well, that's what I was doing while just running through the entire level anyway. I just ignore most of them and sprinted past them, only stopping when I was near an objective that an Ancient Disruptor was next to, then popped Iron Skin again and kept firing at his right boot while trying to aim past the chargers ineffectively attacking me during Rhino's own God Mode. I highly doubt I'd have been able to handle it as any other Warframe because hey, Iron Skin allows me to attack, move, perform actions, etc, all while ignoring damage and especially important in Infestation missions: stunlocking and knockback.

 

 

So when a player is essentially forced to use a God Mode on Rhino just to get past the absurd amounts of trash mobs (It's what they are to my Supercharged LEX/Gorgon ffs) because practically no on else is on and willing to do that mission, then you've encountered a poorly designed enemy group. It's like facing the Malta enemy group from City of Heroes/Villains again with their super-high accuracy 30 second long stun grenades that stack in duration. It feels more cheap than anything else.

 

Before anyone says I want the Infested to be nerfed, please understand I own and have beaten Dark Souls and only have the boss of World 1-4 from Demon's Souls left, and that game is considered harder than Dark Souls to many... seriously, Flamelurker would tear Ancients new ones. Like anyone who has played DeS/DkS, I know what is and is not a proper challenge. It's weird how many people equate the Infested to DkS when they're the exact opposite of everything in DkS. DkS is all about only facing one or two, maybe three or more enemies at once (that gets dicey in later areas) who have predictable attack patterns, move rather slowly, each attack has an obvious tell to it, allowing you to dodge, parry, or incase of low poise enemies and wielding high poise damage weapons like the Demon Great Machete, attack them to stagger them before their attack connects. The bosses are just amped up versions of the lesson you learn while playing DeS/DkS, which is fittingly 'Prepare to Die'.

 

Here's a shining example of someone at SL1 (Soul Level 1) in NG++++++ taking on the hardest boss at the time and only dying because of damage registering during a cutscene:

 

http://youtu.be/PPjREX9V2ek?t=22m3s

 

You'll need to click the link since these forums won't allow posting of media in a post for some reason.

 

What you'll see there is an actual challenge, someone using knowledge of what each attack is telegraphed by and dodging at the right moment and attacking when they can. The Infested with all of them possessing some form of knockback/stun/energyand shield drain (disruptors) and shield ignoring damage (toxics up close) are little more than either utter hell to face (not enough players, they just mob you, etc) or a complete and total joke (a competent group, or a Rhino user with a lot of energy and a maxxed out Iron Skin  w/ Continuity). This is all because of their reliance on a cheap mechanic. I think implementing all the OP's ideas would turn the Infested from the binary state of a faction they are in into a truly challenging faction to face with balanced units who compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses.

[MarcusGraves]

 

 It's like facing the Malta enemy group from City of Heroes/Villains again with their super-high accuracy 30 second long stun grenades that stack in duration. It feels more cheap than anything else.

 

 

omg another CoX player don't see any of my kind anymore since the game went down. you forgot to mention the ULTRA lame Malta Sapper that drained all your energy and could perma lock you with its melee hold skill that also drained your energy if you didn't have a status effect breaking power/item.

[Fictionizzer]

I agree with you 100%. A mass horde of infested stun bugging you and taking you down, if you don't have the right escape skill ready....very lame :(

[NalkorRN]

omg another CoX player don't see any of my kind anymore since the game went down. you forgot to mention the ULTRA lame Malta Sapper that drained all your energy and could perma lock you with its melee hold skill that also drained your energy if you didn't have a status effect breaking power/item.

Thank you, now those repressed memories are going to start haunting my nightmares again. As if I needed those when dealing with the super-cheap stunlocking Infested. Still, MarcusGraves raises a point. The Malta Sapper had this attack that killed your endurance, or in this case, energy bar. If they got up close, you were held, which is basically no moving + stunned for the duration, and the duration could stack.

 

The Chargers and well, everything else do the stunlocking part, while the Disruptors kill your energy bar with a very hard to dodge attack if they get up close. If for some horrid reason you are surrounded by chargers, then that Ancient has an almost perfect chance to hit you with his energy/shield killing melee attack that can go through objects and even his own torso to hit you from behind.

Edited April 26, 2013 by NalkorRN

[Tetsmeha]

I still don't get the idea behind chargers. Tooltip says they deal weak damage, yet 3 can take down 500 shields in 3 swipes all while stunlocking you.

[Story4]

I think that other than 1 or 2 units every unit should lose it's stagger, but have more variety. 

Some suggestions that might work in my opinion:

-have crawlers come from ceilings/walls, but they don't stun anymore and they are silent

-Runners can keep all their characteristics, maybe larger AOE but they can also damage other infested

-Leapers should have higher range and maybe be smaller so that you have a harder time seeing them, or at least remove their "charge"(when they have their arms up before lunging. I never had problems with them because of this reason)

-I don't really know what to say about noxious crawlers, they seem pretty weak and pathetic. Maybe they should be tied to the ceiling and when a player is below them they attack and stun him?

-Ancients should be completely removed, and instead made into 3 different elite mobs:

-1 charger elite mob that heals nearby enemies if you shoot him in the torso so you need to just shoot him in the face or in the leg(he will be quite resilient and as big as current ancients), he only attacks you when he is close, but he has a small range so you can escape fast, also he deals alot of damage but doesn't knock you down, only staggers you

-1 toxic mob that moves slow, doesn't charge, if you melee it it damages you but it attacks at a distance with a blob that only slows you down and maybe has aoe. Medium resilience/HP and he will be smaller than the healer.

-1 disruptor mob that attacks at range, takes out all your shield and 25/50 your energy. It will have a higher range and it will be protected by a shield that lowers gun damage, but is very weak against melee and it doesn't deal damage, it also cannot stagger/knock down but they will spawn in groups of 3 or 4.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Story4

[MarcusGraves]

Thank you, now those repressed memories are going to start haunting my nightmares again. As if I needed those when dealing with the super-cheap stunlocking Infested. 

hey hey.....Carnie Dark Ring Mistresses remember those? :P

[Zinn]

It would be better if the infested weren't buggy, IMO. It's absolutely nonsensical that Runners get a full 2 seconds of near-immortality when they're about to kill themselves and even funnier is that they still explode and stun you (dealing no damage) if you actually kill them during this animation. That just makes the entire enemy group a gigantic waste of time.

 

Also, the stun issue is partially the fault of the spawn system in this game: If you do what the gitgudscrub2elite4u crowd in this thread says, actually running away from the infested, you get rewarded by another huge group spawning behind you. It's essentially more efficient to take the full stun train to the face than it is doing what you're supposed to - Backing away while shooting. I've always felt that certain sections of this game are extremely schizophrenic, in that you have a spawn system that forces you forward at a fairly rapid pace (you can barely clear large rooms before the next group spawns) but a general reward system that demands you stay and kill things. On top of that, DE doesn't want rushers, even though the  very spawn system itself forces the issue.

 

Currently, there are 3 solutions to dealing with infested if you have problems with them:

- Learn to slide attack and time it correctly. Most weapons will destroy anything that isn't an ancient and you move quickly forward.

- Bring a frame that's suited for fighting them with either a cheap attack like Excal or Ember or a decent Ult.

- Bring a rank 30 rifle/pistol setup, where one deals with Runners and the other deals with Ancients.

 

Secret 4th option: Just rush the levels, then you don't have to deal with them. The game's reward system is geared towards you doing that in high level areas anyway, so might as well practice early.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Zinn

[NalkorRN]

hey hey.....Carnie Dark Ring Mistresses remember those? :P

They drove me to abandon my claws/regen scrapper and build a katana/sr. I then fell in love with their death screams. I know Bill Z Bubba sure loved fighting them as Claws/SR.

[DDisaster]

Im playing with loki right now and as you can imagine its really easy not to die to any faction, but i can understand perfectly why ppl are saying what they are saying about the stunlock of the infested faction. I believe they are unbalanced, not in a way of being too hard or too easy, but i think they are too easy and hard at the same time; The infested have weak mosnters(specially cuz they have no range) but a stunlock that its really broken, you can say that both things balance each other out but i think it just makes them not fun to play against, cuz it doesnt give a lot of choice :u either kill them from afar or have a group that is helping you(ppl separate often). (ye you can run through them(and possibly still die) but im assuming you want to kill them)

 

I like to go in and kill everything or just rush through the map and the only way i get stunned/knocked is when 2 or more ancients are together or runners explode.

The second one just has stupid range, and of course its dodgeable but its annoying when you dont see them coming(and you will eventually get caught) and they come 3 or 4 together and ur just getting knocked everywhere, now imagine if ancients join the party, and i didnt even mention the dogs that surround you.

I think they should balance them out a little, not in overall strenght but nerfing the stunlock aspect(for example reducing the knocked/stun time so you can still get stunlock if you get caught by a lot of them but you will be able to escape against a normal group of infested ) and making them a bit more challenging(like adding one ranged atack)