Limbo/banshee Is The New Ash/loki! (+Rework Concept)

[TheWaywardKid]

I've sunk 4 Forma into my Banshee, and consider her my "main" (despite my current profile pic), and it seems to me that the end-result usefulness of his skills are simply trickier versions of hers. Let me explain by comparing the two side-by-side:

 

First, stats. Limbo has almost identical stats, trading out a bit of shields for armor, and receiving a dash aura (which is nice, and I forma'd my Banshee for that). The other polarities are the same. If you average Limbo's rift speed with his normal speed, he has the same speed as Banshee.

 

SONIC BOOM: Cone-shaped crowd control, inflicting 50 impact damage to a group of enemies while knocking them off their feet.

BANISH: Single-target crowd control, inflicting 500 impact damage and knocking them to the rift. Allows use on allies. Precise, with a trade-off of inability to attack the target and the ultimate power to troll. Essentially a more focused/powerful Sonic Boom. (I've seen many people wanting to turn this skill into a cone, which would make it far more similar.)

 

SONAR: 50 energy 5x damage multiplier. 30 second duration. Bonus of highlighting enemies on the mini-map. Catch of needing to hit the weak-spots.

RIFT SURGE:  50 energy 3x damage multiplier. 25 second duration. Bonus of infinite range and no precise "weak-spots". Catch of enemies (and anybody attacking them) needing to be in the rift. Trickier to set up, but easier to make use of the damage.

 

SILENCE: 25 second duration. 75 energy. Stuns all enemies once within a mobile radius around her, with added situational benefit of making the bubble silent. Easily one of the most underrated abilities in the game, I spam this all the time as it allows Banshee (and any nearby teammates) to quickly pass through crowds and gain breathing room. Stun makes targeting enemies easier, and can be re-applied to stunlock enemies simply by running back and forth.

RIFT WALK: 30 Second duration. 15 energy. Sends Limbo himself to the rift, making him able to run through groups of enemies not banished. End result is his own version of Silence - stronger self-preservation with an added bonus of much cheaper casting cost and energy regeneration, but no benefit to team and inability to attack most enemies. Whereas Banshee can be hurt by enemies outside her radius or enemies done being stunned, Limbo can be hurt by enemies in the rift. Limbo also gets a speed boost.

 

SOUND QUAKE: Toggle AoE ultimate inflicting 200 blast damage per second, and staggering all enemies within range for crowd control. 20 meter range. Consistent and cheap, at the cost of immobilizing Banshee and thus making her vulnerable.

CATACLYSM: Shrinking AoE ultimate inflicting 500 blast damage on cast, with 300 impact damage dealt to all entering or leaving its radius. 16 meter range. No stagger, but draws enemies and allies easily into the rift (creating its own crowd control), regenerates energy, and nullifies enemy procs.

 

I understand the two play slightly differently (like Ash and Loki), but I found the similarities between the two uncanny, straight down to the damage types! Ash is beefier than Loki. Ash's first and ultimate are also significantly different than Loki. But the two are very similar. In the same way Limbo's skills are really just offshoots of Banshee's skills, with the only really defining factor being having to juggle with the rift to get them to work. In practice, they do much the same thing.

 

 

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[Rework Concept Section]

 

This is the part where I inevitably try my own hand at "tweaking" Limbo to be more unique as if I had any power or knew what I was doing. That said, my following suggestions would get rid of his ability to troll and (despite being somewhat drastic) would require no additional artistic assets to be created!

 

BANISH: Use Cataclysm's shrinking bubble. Take away the damage, the energy regen, and the proc nullification. Do allow multiple casting. Increase cost to 50 energy. Allows for easy banishing of groups of enemies/allies, and kills trolling. (Allies can simply walk out of the rift if they so choose.)

Haven adds a small health regeneration effect for all Tenno/Companions in the rift.

 

RIFT WALK: Keep as is! (Including speed and energy regen.)

 

RIFT SURGE: I imagine a "surge" as a crashing wave, not a lengthy subtle effect. Still only hits enemies in the rift. Add a small amount of radiation damage on cast, and use the old "banish" visual effect to mark enemies as "tainted" (much like being primed, except without debuffs or explosions). Tainted enemies take the additional 3x damage in or out of the rift. (Yes, if you use Rift Surge again, the radiation damage will be multiplied for enemies already tainted.)
Increase ability cost back to 75 energy due to the "taint" rework, the small radiation damage, and the fact that a reworked Banish would make this far easier to use!

 

CATACLYSM: All Banish rifts violently collapse, dealing massive blast damage and staggering enemies nearby! (Use an already-made explosion art asset or something.) Brings Limbo out of Rift Walk, and removes the "taint" effect from surged enemies (even if they aren't in range of the explosions). Any Tenno in the rift when Cataclysm is activated get all procs removed, and a slight gain in energy (bringing that benefit back into the ability).

The idea being that the rift collapsed, and all connection to it was temporarily lost.

Edited October 29, 2014 by TheWaywardKid

[Lynxh]

I'm gonna try real hard to contain my sarcasm D:

[TheWaywardKid]

I'm gonna try real hard to contain my sarcasm D:

 

Ah. Apparently I am crazy.

Noted.

 

Not confident in my rework suggestions at all, but it still seems from my angle that Banshee and Limbo are incredibly similar in all abilities. To each their own view, I suppose!

 

EDIT: Mind hinting to me which side of this topic you have to restrain yourself on? I'm betting it's the "rework" side, but I'm curious. :)

Edited October 29, 2014 by TheWaywardKid

[Casval_Rouge]

Wait so why rework Limbo instead of Banshee?  The only real problem with Limbo is his ability to potentially troll allies in the hands of a troll.  As for the similarity between Banshee and Limbo, they have significantly different play style in practice to say the least.  Limbo is a caster heavy on rotations.  Banshee does not.  That alone is enough.  But if you're not convinced...

 

Banish is different to Sonic Boom in every way.  Sonic Boom is a cone shape that cause little damage but will ragdoll.  Banish is a single target disable that also does decent damage for its cost.  If that is similar then Soul Punch is even more similar to Banish because it both knockdown and does damage.  Except Soul Punch lacks the utility of Banish.  Which actually makes it similar to Sonic Boom, quite like a focused Sonic Boom that ragdolls?? 

 

If you think Sonar is similar in roles and concept with Rift Surge, then you might as well add Accelerant to it.  With Rift Surge being the only one harder to use, but easier to take advantage of.  And this is the only power that I think need rework. 

 

Silence and Rift Walk is nothing alike.  Silence is primary for stealth but also have the added ability to provide minor stun and can grant the team a way to escape.  Rift Walk is there just so Limbo can actually work.  It grants the energy he needs, it allows Limbo to actually be useful, and yes it also protect himself.  Does nothing for the team, and it certainly does not provide minor stun, or deafening.  One provides for the team, the other doesn't.  How are they similar?  You even mention all their differences, I'm just repeating what you said...

 

Soundquake and Cataclysm.  Again, nothing alike, at all.  Soundquake is an AOE disable that unlike Rhino Stomp, it is continuous but doesn't have the stasis effect, a trade off for its ability to be channeled.  Cataclysm is more like Snowglobe, it protects whoever is inside from outside fire and tip the balance of power to allies favor with energy regen and status immunity..  It doesn't CC, because they can run out of it.  It doesn't do continuous damage inherently, but only because of the mechanics of Rift Plane that it potentially could in a manner of speaking. 

 

As for the rework suggestion, I'm sorry but the fact that you mention removing the energy regen, the damage and status immune from Cataclysm shows that you don't understand Limbo's mechanics at all.  It is not granted from Cataclysm, it is from being in the Rift.  The same with Rift Walk, or Banish.  Notice Banish does damage twice every time you cast it?  Or Cataclysm?  That's why. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by Casval_Rouge

[TheWaywardKid]

EDIT: I keep on editing this post, trying to delete those huge space gaps in the quotes, and it never sticks. My apologies.

First, let me point out that Ash has some significant changes compared to Loki, so similarly I [personally] think my comparison that Limbo is like Banshee still works within the context of this topic's title. :)

Wait so why rework Limbo instead of Banshee?

Because Limbo is topical, and the general consensus is that he needs quite a bit of work. Thought I'd give my two cents on that. Sure, I'd personally like to see them sort out the known bugs/issues with Sonar, and perhaps lower the casting cost of Silence, but overall Banshee is a very solid frame (if under-used.)

 

Limbo is a caster heavy on rotations.  Banshee does not.  That alone is enough.

Going back to the Ash/Loki comparison - Ash is a beefy and offensive ninja, Loki is utility. And yet there is always the argument due to their similarities. Rotations is THE thing that makes Limbo arguably different, in my opinion. But only in how you get them to activate, because I'm arguing on an "end result" basis.

 

Sonic Boom is a cone shape that cause little damage but will ragdoll.  Banish is a single target disable that also does decent damage for its cost.

Yes. In my opinion, Banish is mostly a highly-focused Sonic Boom. Do you knock ten people down temporarily at 50 damage a piece? Or do you completely ignore one, inflicting 500 damage? There's more of a similarity between that choice than, say, Shuriken vs Decoy.

So it's like Soul Punch and Sonic Boom had a baby. My point is that the concept is similar, especially when taking his other skills into account. Whether Banish can compete with Sonic Boom is up to personal opinion.

 

If you think Sonar is similar in roles and concept with Rift Surge, then you might as well add Accelerant to it.

Agreed. Also add in Molecular Prime, the "ultimate" equivalent of the others. Yet again with the Ash/Loki theme: I bring it up because it's similar to Banshee on the whole. (Although Ember has Accelerant, she's obviously a damage caster frame. Hence why I'm not comparing her.) Ash may get a small stun with the smoke, but he still turns invisible. He may not switch when he teleports, but he still teleports.

Similarly, Limbo gets a focused Sonic Boom, and a 50 energy damage multiplication skill with limitation.

And this is the only power that I think need rework.

I disagree there. With the lowered cost and raised multiplier, the skill is awesome. 3x damage, or significantly more with mods? Works on absolutely everyone in the rift? It's his entering/exiting rift abilities that need work. The only reason I dared to suggest a change in my very whimsical, rough "rework" was to balance out the fact that my suggested changes would make it too easy to use this skill. (Having more flexibility, but higher cost and having to recast it for new people in the rift.)

 

Silence and Rift Walk is nothing alike.  Silence is primary for stealth but also have the added ability to provide minor stun and can grant the team a way to escape.  Rift Walk is there just so Limbo can actually work.  It grants the energy he needs, it allows Limbo to actually be useful, and yes it also protect himself.  Does nothing for the team, and it certainly does not provide minor stun, or deafening.  One provides for the team, the other doesn't.  How are they similar?  You even mention all their differences, I'm just repeating what you said...

Admittedly a little bit of a stretch. Then again, going back to the topic title, two of Ash's abilities are significantly different from Loki.

First, if you think Silence is still for stealth, then you are one of the majority who don't understand its best uses. In the right hands, that mobile stun is amazing for closing the melee gap, running to/from batteries and oxygen, getting out of tight situations, etc.. With the rework it's a survival skill with useless stealth bonuses, and the ability to help the team. The stun also temporarily makes it easier to take advantage of Sonar.

Yet again, Rift Walk is a focused version. It does nothing to the team, but practically makes him invulnerable. True, it is his "key" skill, and does so much more than simply protect him. But it functions similarly, no? Protection, while helping him use his other abilities? I'd argue Rift Walk is actually a MUCH BETTER version of Silence.

 

 

Cataclysm is more like Snowglobe, it protects whoever is inside from outside fire and tip the balance of power to allies favor with energy regen and status immunity..  It doesn't CC, because they can run out of it.

Agreed, it is more similar to Snowglobe. I would argue, though, that the nature of the rift is inherently CC in nature. Sectioning off a section of the crowd? Or one person? It's an odd, unique way of managing crowds, sure.

You make a good point that they can run out of it.

I think the point I was trying to make is that Banshee's sections off an area with stun, whereas Limbo sections off an area in a different dimension. However, like Bladestorm and Radial Disarm, they are quite different as well.

 

 

As for the rework suggestion, I'm sorry but the fact that you mention removing the energy regen, the damage and status immune from Cataclysm shows that you don't understand Limbo's mechanics at all.  It is not granted from Cataclysm, it is from being in the Rift.

Oh, I totally understand the current mechanics.

My [flawed] rework was suggesting replacing Banish with what Cataclysm does, making it easier to send people to the rift, and allowing for allies to walk out (countering the trolling of Banish). But 25 energy for that would be waaaaaay OP. So I half-mindedly suggested taking away the other benefits, and making the cost 50.

I then made a new suggestion for Cataclysm.

Note: I like how the rift currently works. I was just throwing out ideas for how to rework Banish and maaaaybe not be OP while doing so. The main purpose was to point out the similarities between the frames, though; the rework ideas are an afterthought.

Edited October 30, 2014 by TheWaywardKid