Extreme Poor Scalability Of Shields In End Game

[IlIlllIO0pallaO0IlIlIlIl]

Especially after the improvement given to the Grineer, shields became so weak as to be useless. My Loki or Rhino can solo higher levels with some moderate difficulty. However, with Volt's huge maxed out shield with recharge rate, biggest base shield pool, the combination of ridiculous accuracy of Grineer guns despite the distance and speed plus shield taking full damage, it makes shields just completely useless.

 

I'm not saying enable armour to shields, because this would make health near useless. However, there should be mods where it decreases shield regen, resistance to stagger while shield is active, and perhaps just improve pre-existing mods.

 

 

[Ashgan9]

This is compounded by the fact ice maps halve your shields giving you a big finger to the point I'm just gona insta abandon and restart maps whenever I hit ice even 25% is kinda bullS#&$ especialy if you frame is shield reliant.

 

some better solutions to ice maps woulda been longer delays to start recharging shields or something like that not penalize soemthing that already gets stripped off you in seconds.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Ashgan9

[neKroMancer]

Grineer gun is the Grakata, highly inaccurate at long range and extremely punishing at close range.  If your Loki + decoy can wade through them, Volt with electric shield should be able to do it too without much trouble. What Volt lacks is cheap stunlock power (shock only reliably works with Corpus) against Grineer.

 

And that mod you mentioned already exist in the game - Fast deflection increase shield regeneration rate (you already have it). Resistance to stagger is planned.

[Guest]

we're talkin about pluto right?

[IlIlllIO0pallaO0IlIlIlIl]

we're talkin about pluto right?

That range, although I was struggling sometime before that after switching to Volt after Loki.

 

 

Grineer gun is the Grakata, highly inaccurate at long range and extremely punishing at close range.  

I swear, across the damn chasm, with only the lancers, they can reduce my shield to two digits while my speed was enabled-I wasn't even running to them!

 

 

If your Loki + decoy can wade through them, Volt with electric shield should be able to do it too without much trouble. What Volt lacks is cheap stunlock power (shock only reliably works with Corpus) against Grineer.

I don't call my Loki a shield build, despite maxing out the pool and regen because a) it still has half as much compared to Volt, b) Loki can solo higher end without much shield at all. Me with the Essence, streamline, more power mods, I can stay invis pretty much 70% of the game.

 

With Volt, I guess you have the deployable shield. But this is null point, as you are not relying on your own shield, but instead on the distance and an ability. This also limits Volt as long distance warframe. I honestly believe all Warframes should have viable melee build, whether using invisibility, speed, or shield.

 

 

 

And that mod you mentioned already exist in the game - Fast deflection increase shield regeneration rate (you already have it). Resistance to stagger is planned.

Fast deflection increase the rate at which the shield recharges-if I'm not mistaken. What I'm asking for is a mod that reduces the cooldown of the regen. Atm, my mod slots are full, but will gladly swap out my stamina or my AOE for the sake of this mod. This would allow for two kinds of shield builds for most people: a) fast regen low pool shield that will reward you for taking quick covers and fast maneuvers. b) slower regen, larger pool shield for longer distance sniping. This is because:

 

shield regen+cooldown == more damage recovered per second. Better if you are soaking up more damage ie) close up

more shield == longer continuous engagement with the enemy. Or with high enough DPS, longer duration of short range combat higher intensity combat with little cover taking and higher damage output.

 

Of course these are all theoretical, but playing other RPGs with shield mechanics, these kind of things adds depth to the overall gameplay.

[Tetsmeha]

Why the negative drawbacks? The only negative drawback should be the cost of the mod, nothing more nothing less.

[krisp]

 it makes shields just completely useless.

Why don't you take them off if they're completely useless? Oh that's right you're using hyperbole because you can't address an issue properly, color me surprised.

 

I don't like ice maps either but if survivability is your problem, you have options.

[Dusklite]

Why don't you take them off if they're completely useless? Oh that's right you're using hyperbole because you can't address an issue properly, color me surprised.

 

I don't like ice maps either but if survivability is your problem, you have options.

The problem with ice maps (or any other random environmental danger/event) is that there's currently no incentive to keep playing.

 

If they would make... I don't know... say frost damage mods drop a lot more often on ice maps... or just a flat out credit bonus of 50%... that'd be different.

 

Right now I'm groaning when there's ice on the map or there's an additional objective and am totally indifferent to fires on the map. Just give me another reason to put up with this than my statistics.

 

To the shield problem at hand:

I can do Pluto missions solo right now. Not all of them, not all of the time but it's doable. Sure, the shields on my Ash are gone if I'm standing too long in the open, but actually that's more fun for me than eating bullets and crapping death all over on lower-level missions.

 

Now, if you are talking about survivability for high-shield/low-armor&health frames: a bit of tweaking to let them actually use cover to recharge their shields would be nice, yes. But I'd rather have some other options for that than decreasing the delay. Right now I'm a lot better with my Ash than my Mag on high-level missions because shields are taking more of a hit than health (because of armor) but if I could halve the recharge delay on my shields I would become frigging overpowered with Mag even on Pluto.

 

I would suggest a tweaking to the Sentinel mechanics to address this:

If sentinels would always revive (and the revive mod only affects the speed of revival - actually "revive" should be "reconstruct" since they are not alive in the first place...) and boost your shield regen rate or (in this case) even shorten the delay as suggested instead of a flat out refill, you would have a chance to refill a nice chunk of shield even in shorter amounts of actual cover before the next spawn behind you or a melee enemy gets on your nerves.

This way you would start having REAL problems in a longer firefight once your Sentinel is reconstructing and you are under constant harassment from enemy fire. Not immediately if you are taking some hits.

 

But that's just a suggestion. I agree that some frames can survive high-level content solo easier than others, but I also question if that wasn't the intention of frame design in the first place since some frames are more support than solo.

[Babalenong]

my redirection is half and fast deflection is almost maxed, but i have no problem soloing level 55 grineers

only it took a lot of patience and taking cover though

[Buddlschlumpf]

on pluto with 1k /700 shields (depending on your warframe) + shield recharge rate, you are extremely fine. You entirely underestimate the strength of your sentinel, given you full shields right again once they drop to zero. Which means, you essentially have 2k shields. And your sentinel is able to recharge your shields rather often.

 

That's beside the fact that you can hide around a corner for a few seconds and come back in with full shields again (+90% shield recharge is extremely nice).

 

And if that isn't tanky enough for you: Shields are by definition designed to be used as a rechargable health pool. Which means, you have to introduce some recharge times into your playstyle. Within a mission you can use up ten thousands of shield points if necessary. You'll never have enough health to compete with that.

[TheTenthDoc]

Grineer gun is the Grakata, highly inaccurate at long range and extremely punishing at close range.  If your Loki + decoy can wade through them, Volt with electric shield should be able to do it too without much trouble. What Volt lacks is cheap stunlock power (shock only reliably works with Corpus) against Grineer.

 

Fun fact: Grineer Lancers generally have a higher hit chance than Grineer Snipers or Sniper Crewmen because of how their targeting works.

Edited April 23, 2013 by TheTenthDoc

[neKroMancer]

Fun fact: Grineer Lancers generally have a higher hit chance than Grineer Snipers or Sniper Crewmen because of how their targeting works.

I think they work in the same way. You can throw their aim off with mobility and a bit of acrobatic/sliding movement. The fact that Grakata seems to hit more is because of the firing rate and spraying nature of the gun itself.

Hitscan weapon can be evade in this way, although highly range dependent.

[PaperAlien]

My suggestion actually is to apply armour to shields, possibly at reduced effectiveness. To prevent health being underpowered and also solving the problem of high-health warframes being very unsustainable, have health passively regenerate, and maybe fairly fast. As long as it doesn't regen fast enough that people can depend on regen to health in the middle of a firefight, a high value such as 3-5 a second wouldn't be too bad. And of course, the health regen artifact would need to be changed in some way.

Of course, this is just my view, feel free to criticise.

[Dusklite]

My suggestion actually is to apply armour to shields, possibly at reduced effectiveness. To prevent health being underpowered and also solving the problem of high-health warframes being very unsustainable, have health passively regenerate, and maybe fairly fast. As long as it doesn't regen fast enough that people can depend on regen to health in the middle of a firefight, a high value such as 3-5 a second wouldn't be too bad. And of course, the health regen artifact would need to be changed in some way.

Of course, this is just my view, feel free to criticise.

That would make armor too important.

Right now, low-armor frames depend on shields. Make armor count for shields as well and you make high-armor frames even more resilient than they already are, triggering a wave of "this is too easy" complains, resulting in an enemy buff... making low-armor frames even more fragile than they already are. I know you mean well, but this completely destabilizes any balance DE are currently trying to achieve.

 

Lore-wise it wouldn't make any sense, either. Shields are energy fields that absorb kinetic and/or heat energy and are completely separate from armor plating. Now I know this is first and foremost a game and that's why lore doesn't bother me that much, but it's still not fitting in. Just sayin'.

[arune]

Shields are already too good, they need a nerf not a buff.

 

I haven't taken any health damage in recent memory in Pluto, e.g. going in with rank 20ish Nyx, leveling up a rank 10-20 melee weapon. Only shield mod being rank 10 Redirection, no regen added. Sometimes, rarely, my sentinel has to replenish my shields, if I really go crazy (like trying to kill things with a rank 0 weapon).

[krisp]

Right now I'm groaning when there's ice on the map or there's an additional objective and am totally indifferent to fires on the map. Just give me another reason to put up with this than my statistics.

Yeah ice maps were a problem since before open beta and I kept thinking it's just a placeholder for more complex and challenging mission parameters. Just flat out removing 50% of your shields is silly.

Edited April 23, 2013 by krisp

[PaperAlien]

That would make armor too important.

Right now, low-armor frames depend on shields. Make armor count for shields as well and you make high-armor frames even more resilient than they already are, triggering a wave of "this is too easy" complains, resulting in an enemy buff... making low-armor frames even more fragile than they already are. I know you mean well, but this completely destabilizes any balance DE are currently trying to achieve.

 

Lore-wise it wouldn't make any sense, either. Shields are energy fields that absorb kinetic and/or heat energy and are completely separate from armor plating. Now I know this is first and foremost a game and that's why lore doesn't bother me that much, but it's still not fitting in. Just sayin'.

A valid point.

[derclaw]

Shields are already too good, they need a nerf not a buff.

 

I haven't taken any health damage in recent memory in Pluto, e.g. going in with rank 20ish Nyx

LOL. Thats trully an fuking acomplishment (sarcasm-sarcasm).

Edited April 23, 2013 by derclaw

[arune]

LOL. Thats trully an fuking acomplishment (sarcasm-sarcasm).

Applies to any warframe really. Nyx was just what I was levelling last. Every single warframe isn't in any danger as long as you equip their defensive ability and redirection.

[TheTenthDoc]

I think they work in the same way. You can throw their aim off with mobility and a bit of acrobatic/sliding movement. The fact that Grakata seems to hit more is because of the firing rate and spraying nature of the gun itself.

Hitscan weapon can be evade in this way, although highly range dependent.

 

The firing animations for the Snipers are also significantly longer, giving you much more time to react. I'd rather be across the room from a Sniper or four any day.

[aszabo]

I think shields are fine. If I host games I have to deal with the lancer RoF bug which makes them the most dangerous enemy in the game. If I join a game or host anything besides grineer it is a cakewalk. Some people don't get the RoF bug and its client side only so while you may be seeing it and taking increased damage from it others are not. That may be where alot of the confusion is coming in to play. Hit detection for and against is determined client side. This is obvious when you are in a laggy game that you never get hit in and can shoot mobs the are standing still. If it was not client side you would get murdered with out knowing what hit you and would not be able to hit anything because they would never be where they appeared on your client.

 

This is supposed to be fixed soon.

[TunaMayo]

I might get downvoted for saying this, but why are you rushing in and getting hit on higher levels? Isn't that what utility skills are for? If you are getting shot:

Volt - pop a shield

Loki - Go invis/Disarm/decoy

Rhino - Any of the 4

Excal - radial blind

Trin - Link (unless you have a sentinel... grumble)

Frost - Globe

Ash - Invis

Saryn - Molt

Nyx - Chaos/Absorb/Mind control

Banshee - Sound blast thing

Mag - I guess crush to stop them all

Ember - Very little run and hide.

 

I thought that is what these powers were designed for no?

[stacey69]

Once your mods are notched and your using the right ones in frames and guns there is nothing in game at the moment that should even make you breath deeply. Shields are fine and ice planets are meant to be harder. Warframe is far far to easy and many of us need more of a challenge. Sorry i dont agree with this thread at all.

[Shinnyshin]

That's...odd.  I haven't had anything like the problems you're describing.  Loki's squishier than the rest, sure, but with Decoy (which I far prefer to invisibility) I only die when I screw up hard.  And I don't think I've lost shields with Saryn in eons.  I'm honestly surprised you're having that much trouble with Volt.  Same for Frost and Trinity once I got enough slots to equip Redirection.  Prior to reading this, I was of the opinion that enemies needed a significant damage buff--or shields needed a nerf.

 

Though I do agree about ice maps.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Shinnyshin

[stacey69]

Ice maps seperate the men from the boys. More ice maps please :)